You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

The Hall of Fame

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.263 replies, Sticky
Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » The Hall of Fame » Defence in RM hill country
Bottom
Topic Subject:Defence in RM hill country
« Previous Page  1 2 3 4 ··· 6  Next Page »
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 01-28-04 06:41 AM ET (US)         
Hi all, I've been spending whatever free time I have these days trying out a type of terrain new to me, the hills. I've read some of the tips in the MP strategy pages already, but I still find these maps rather tricky to handle.

Ok, I play against the CP and wallop it everytime. However, I frequently have enemy villies infiltrating into my side of the map. It doesn't kill me, but it's extremely agitating, especially in the earlier stages of the game. I usually explore about half of the map ("my side") by mid-Tool. I've uncovered important resources and all 22 of my villies are working hard to gather wood and food for a decent Bronze timing. That means all my resources are being stockpiled for age-advance. I have practically no military except for a couple of pathetic bowmen. I only start booming out my army when I reach Bronze and have researched the wheel (I love CAs ).

I don't know if Bronzing in 16 to 18 minutes in hill terrain is ok?... If it's bad, are there any tips to improve the timing? Should I start off with more villies or something?

Anyway, back to the topic of defence. Before I reach Bronze, I see a couple of enemy villies exploring my territory. That makes me rather panicky since I have to get a few of mine to stop work and get rid of him before he uncovers my whole base. I also start worrying that the enemy army might pay me a visit soon. Fortunately, the CP isn't good enough to do that, so I always win in the end.

However, I'm sure that good players would have their army overrun my base in no time. I've thought of setting up defences like walls and towers, but they're practically useless. I can't possibly dedicate so many of my villies on stone mining. Moreover, walling and towering is time-costly. It'll definitely kill my economy and prevent me from going to Bronze.

Are there any tips and suggestions for a better form of defence instead? I don't want the enemy to sneak into my base through a gap in the flank and start creating havoc while my troops are far away at the front. Neither do I want to dedicate too many of my villies on walling.


D XUAN
AuthorReplies:
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 02-29-04 09:24 AM ET (US)     51 / 263       
Mmm, the only thing I mine is stone, and I only send one villager to do that.

The reason why so many of my villies are idle in the latest screenshots is because I'm already on to the stage of clearing up. There's basically no significant resistance being offered by the CPs so I thought I didn't need much resources to end the game.

I'll try to get more villies to gather food next time. Maybe I'm still having too many woodies...

As for how I hunt, I usually go for gazelle first. Let's say there are 6 gazelle in a herd. I send 6 villies (mostly from woodcutting duty) to kill them one by one. Those animals won't be able to escape far away. After I kill them all, I build a pit and send the villagers to gather food, one villager to one gazelle. After the gazelle have been exhausted, I group the villies and hunt elephants, building a pit only after I've killed them.


D XUAN

[This message has been edited by Duan Xuan (edited 02-29-2004 @ 09:25 AM).]

LoginError
Clubman
posted 02-29-04 01:57 PM ET (US)     52 / 263       
I always try to build a pit before I do any hunting. The longer the animal lays on the ground, the more food value it looses. Its a flat rate no matter how long the animal lays, and the longer it lays the less you have. Thats also why I try to use 2 hunters to a gazelle. (More for elephants obviously.)

I hate login errors!
Dr Lorenzo
AOEH Seraph
posted 02-29-04 05:07 PM ET (US)     53 / 263       
I try alternating my hunters to one gazelle.

DR LORENZO
AoEH | Woad Creations Alumni
I of course meant bastard in a positive way! - Kor
I just sort of chop away at it when it gets long enough. The ladies love it. - Obese, on shaving
Lorenzo is kind of like that relative everyone knows about but won't talk about. - Crimson Knight
We already knew about the mass murders and gang rapes and ethnic cleansings, but now they've resorted to ENCRYPTING PEOPLES ELECTRONIC DOCUMENTS! - drahnier
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 02-29-04 09:00 PM ET (US)     54 / 263       
Adamant Hoplite:
I worry more about time before bronze than after - if your econ is strong enough to bronze fast in the first place, you'll gatherenough resources while bronzing to do something with it.

Yeah, chariots and siege weapons chew up a lot of wood.

Duan Xuan:
From what I've seen on your screenshots, your pit could be closer to the gazelles. Take a moment to get your hunters out of the way if necessary, so you can stick it right in the middle.

LoginError:
Although you lose some meat due to the delay of building the pit, you lose a lot more walking from the pit to the corpses and back.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 03-02-04 09:07 AM ET (US)     55 / 263       
Will just 4 or 5 woodies be sufficient in Stone age? I could have the rest (about 15, including 3 for exploring) on food? That's about 12 foodies, quite a lot. I usually forage first, but I'm not very sure if foraging is as fast as hunting?...

I think I'll go for a chariot rush the next time... I've never really used chariots to a large extent, only CAs.


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 03-02-04 03:55 PM ET (US)     56 / 263       
Duan Xuan:
If you plan right, you can probably do ok with 2-3 woodies.

3 explorers seem like a lot, I can only control one at a time... the other two might as well be picking berries.

Hunting is 2/3 faster with persian, and 1/4 faster than SF in RoR, making it the fastest food in the game. With other civs, hunting is the same as gathering, but if you can pit next to a forest as well then you can get an earlier start on wood, so it depends on whether you find animals early - I say take the first food you find.

Egyptian works well with a 1/3 chariots 2/3 CAs ratio, but otherwise you're better off with cavs in early bronze and camels in late bronze.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 03-03-04 04:16 AM ET (US)     57 / 263       
I usually send 2 exploring villies on different ways. Each will walk in a large semicircle from the TC and back. I make them travel like this using waypoints. They would then uncover the area around my base rather quickly. They also locate strategic choke points for me to wall. If I don't get villies exploring fast, how could I get the rest to have any food to gather anyway?

The third exploring villager is the one I actually micromanage. He speeds up the exploring process to uncover more resources.


D XUAN
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 03-24-04 08:27 AM ET (US)     58 / 263       
I dug this old thread out from its grave because I still have a lot of questions pertaining RM hillz. It doesn't really have got anything to do with defence though, and it's about booming and winning on the Zone.

I've been playing on the Zone rather frequently these days (at least 3 RM games each day) and the two particular map types I like to play on are Mediterranean and Hill.

My hill games usually start off very well. I'm almost always taking the lead during Stone and early Tool age, sometimes for even longer. I boom to about 30 villies in Stone age before I hit the Tool button. I pump out about 10 to 20 more when I hit Tool.

I have no problems with food at all. I didn't really go to the extent of having 100 villies... I spent my food on a decent army. I Bronzed rather quickly too. Yet, I can still never win. I constantly find myself slower than others in forming a large army, even though I gained the upper hand earlier in the game.

My question is, should I continue pumping out even more villies, or do I form an army early to harrass the opponent? I can't do both because the food will be depleted eventually.

I still can't believe I lost a particular game today. I was leading like mad (at least a hundred points) in Tool and early Bronze. I Bronzed before he did but I couldn't form a Bronze army fast enough. While I was dilly-dallying to get more stables and archery ranges built and more units to be pumped out, my opponent managed to Bronze. I sent about 10 cavalry and 15 compies to attack his base, killing about 10 villies, but my attack force was decimated by STs and massed compies. After my initial attack force was destroyed, I had practically no more cavalry and compies. While I was pumping them out for another attack, he went to Iron and proceeded to demolish my forward bases. I resigned.

Any tips for a good, solid Bronze army? I think I'm doing quite well in Stone and Tool age, but I tend to lose my momentum and advantages in Bronze. Sigh...


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 03-24-04 05:20 PM ET (US)     59 / 263       
DX:
Points don't help you win, so forget them.

Keep making villies.

Don't make a tool army unless you're fighting in tool (either attacking or defending).

How fast do you tool and bronze now?

Whether to tool rush, bronze rush or boom depends a lot on your opponent's civ and strategy, and your civ as well as what you're good at.

Some thoughts for hills...
1. Roman - "Dynamic Towers" - Spread towers out all over your town and your allies, and keep STs away using chariots. You can probably slow the enemy down long enough to get scythed chariots, and then... well, you win.

2. Hittite - "Tool Compies" - I'm used to compies, but tool bowmen work about the same way. Hittite bowmen, with their +1 damage bonus, can win vs half their number of slingers - not to mention CAs, camels, etc. So if you make a big pack of them, and march to your opponent's town... alternately, CAs and STs works well too.

3. Macedonian - Explorer villies, almost invincible hoplites, cheap STs.

4. Egypt - 1/3 chariots, 2/3 CAs. Simple, yet effective.
5. Shang - 12 min cav rush, boom in bronze.
6. Persian - tool rush, 11 min cav rush.
7. Yamato - scout rush, 14 min cav rush.
8. Assyrian - 14 min CA rush. Slow, slow.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 03-26-04 09:19 AM ET (US)     60 / 263       
Ok, I've been practicing on villager-booming since yesterday. I usually have about 70+ villies in a hill game, and I have quite an impressive economy (IMO ).

I understand the importance of creating more villies, but I can only start booming in Bronze from multiple TCs.

Before that, in Stone and Tool, I tend to try to create as many villies as possible. I don't seem to have improved my age-advance timings. As a matter of fact, my Bronzing time has become worse. I reach Tool in about 11 min and Bronze in 18 or 19. Perhaps it has got to do with me trying to create more villies? I'm now practicing against the CP on a 200-pop game. I have about 26 villies before I hit Tool and about 35 before I go to Bronze. Is that too few, or too many? I still don't understand how I could have such poor timings. It's my biggest weakness which prevents me from winning games.

I'm now aiming for faster age-advance timings and boom military units in Bronze. If I go for Tool units, I'll definitely hurt my Bronzing time, worsening everything. I think I'll go to the Zone now to have a hill game and see what other problems I have... I'll post my results later on.


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 03-26-04 12:17 PM ET (US)     61 / 263       
DX:
Way too many villies before bronze. Try 20 villies in stone, 24 in tool.

You've got it right, bronze early and use those extra TCs.

Avoid tool wars if you go for bronze wars.

With shang you should be able to reach 9 min tool, 12 min bronze even on hills. Use one scout and 5-6 cavs to hit one opponent's woodies and when you don't see any more villies, go attack his allies. As soon as the cavs are made, start booming villies - your opponents should now be too busy to attack you with anything that a few freshly-made cavs or camels can't handle.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 03-26-04 01:18 PM ET (US)     62 / 263       
The first key to Hills is to have solid micromanaging skills with your early economy.

1) Make 26 villagers in Stone and only 1-2 in Tool.

2) If you do not currently lure elephants to your Town Center or Storage Pit, start practicing today because you have to if you want to get good at Hills. Herding gazelles helps a lot too, but it is harder than luring eles.

3) Explore for food in Stone Age until you find your second berries and at least two other food sources (eles and gazelles).

Hit Tool button after making your TTL pop 26.

Once you hit the upgrade, use the next 15-20 seconds to rebalance your villagers. You should have 18-20 at least on food sources, 1-2 explorers, and 4-6 on wood after rebalancing. If you have over 200 wood in stockpile, cut down to just 2-3 on wood. Your whole goal is to arrive in Tool Age with close to 800 food and 300 wood.

Upon entering Tool Age, make 1-2 villagers as villagers build a Market and Archery Range. If you do not have enough food to do the Bronze upgrade when second villager is born, restart the game and practice Stone and Tool Age some more.

Once you hit the Bronze upgrade, wood becomes a greater need. Your whole goal at this point is to build 2-3 more archeries, and gather enough wood and food to start booming Chariot Archers the rest of the game.

If you can get your micromanaging skills to get you to the Bronze Age with 26-28 villagers, 3-4 archeries, with little or no lag from your Town Center (meaning you are either making villagers or advancing ages), you are well on your way to becoming a good hills player.

I NEVER EVER EVER stop making chariot archers the rest of the game, and I eventually get to where I can support 5-8 archeries and 2-3 stables along with 1-3 more town centers all in Bronze. These building NEVER will be idle.

Key things to remember:
1) Chariot Archers rule Hill Country. Don't be caught in the Tool Age while your opponent is already booming Chariot Archers.

2) Chariot Archers rule Hill Country. Arriving in Bronze Age with fewer than 26-27 villagers will not allow you to boom Chariot Archers from three or more archeries, and your opponent will probably run you over if you can't boom from at least three archeries non stop.

3) Chariot Archers rule Hill Country. Do not make the mistake and prioritize economy over military in early Bronze. When faced with what to do with extra resources, make more chariot archers and archeries rather than making government center and town centers early. Your four town centers and eight chariot archers won't do well against 20+ opponent chariot archers. Boom economy when you can protect economy.

4) Chariot Archers rule Hill Country. Make your new goal and priority to have more Chariot Archers than any other player. Go kill players that have their priorities wrong and are booming villagers rather than chariot archers. It really is that easy if you ALWAYS BOOM CHARIOT ARCHERS NON STOP.

Good Luck!


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 03-27-04 10:05 AM ET (US)     63 / 263       
You experts make things sound so easy, really. Ok, I'll try to improve my age-advance timings. My target now is Bronze in 15 minutes. Anyway, you might find this ridiculous, but sometimes I forget to hit the Bronze button in a fast-speed Zone game. I just let food hit 1000 before I realise that I should've went to Bronze half a minute earlier.

Ok, I did promise a few screenshots from yesterday night. Oh well, I lost to a fellow rook. Of course, I wasn't exactly happy with the results.

It was a normal hill game set to reveal map and highest resources. I was sort of confused about the order of doing things with so much resources. I just continued doing what I do normally, except that I don't bother to chop stragglers around my TC. I boomed about 20 villies (can't remember exactly how many) in Stone age until I decided that I was staying too long in Stone. My opponent Tooled way before I did and I was afraid that he would Tool rush me. So, I went to Tool age and pumped out about 10 more villies before I decided to enter Bronze.

I built about 3 more TCs to gather gold, wood and food from farms. I also pumped out cavalry and compies nonstop. I had a pretty large army of compies and thought that I was quite safe, but I was wrong. He threw a horde of CAs at me. I suffered terrible losses at first but managed to destroy his first invasion force. I continued pumping out more compies and cavalry and waited for his next attack (I knew he was preparing for one more). This time, besides a horde of CAs, he also had a lot of elephant archers. I tried to defend against his onslaught, was quite successful initially, but then his scythes came charging in. I resigned.

Screenshots: http://www.xeenslayer.netfirms.com/AoE/aoerorzonescreenshots.html

I can't understand how I could lose that game. I had at least 20 more villies than he did, but he could outboom me in terms of military. I checked his base after the game and saw that he had no more military buildings (archery ranges, stables) than I had. I really didn't stop much when pumping out compies and cavalry. What went wrong?


D XUAN
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 03-27-04 11:43 AM ET (US)     64 / 263       
I practiced against the CP just now. I Tooled in 12 mins and Bronzed in 16. Still a little slow, I think. I didn't have a decent defence force until 20th minute. Villager high was 79. Do I really need to have 100? I thought I had enough villies, though gold was a little short (too few convenient mines near my base). I didn't take any screenshots...

D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 03-29-04 10:51 PM ET (US)     65 / 263       
DX:
If you fight CAs with CAs, you're gonna lose. Those CA rushers have more experience at it than you do, and always will.

Your advantage? By now they are pretty much hardwired to keep making more CAs, even if they aren't working. If you learn how to stop CAs while continuing to boom, they are sooo screwed.

Once you have compies, cavs/camels are only useful vs STs.

Instead, counter the horde of CAs with a horde of compies, which pack more firepower into limited space, and are faster to train. At 20 vs 20, his losses are already bigger than yours. Keep making archeries and compies, and before long you will be left at the end of a battle with a horde of compies, and him with nothing. That's when you attack.

Of course, for that you have to have compies by the time your opponent's CAs arrive... so you have to be faster. If he's playing a good CA civ (assy, hitt or egypt), shang should be able to have compies before he's even finished researching the wheel.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 03-30-04 04:19 AM ET (US)     66 / 263       
I had a 2v2 RM hill game yesterday night. It was a nightmare. The two opponents were really so experienced... They were booming nonstop and they had forward bases almost everywhere. I did destroy a couple of them, but it was useless. They were able to outboom my partner and me. My partner's military was crippled in a hard fight between CAs + HCats and Swordies + HCats. Me? I was trampled pretty easily by no less than 50 armoured elephants.

My question now would be... How could I maintain a good forward base without invoking an early conflict with my opponent should he discover it? I really want to have forward bases (I try my best) but they tend to get attacked by my opponent.

Also, which units are best against armoured eles?... I'm still having nightmares now of the attack last night.


D XUAN
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 03-30-04 11:54 AM ET (US)     67 / 263       
Duan Xuan:

The best defense against any large army is to not let your opponent get that large.

The first step is to become the attacking player in the game, not waiting around to be attacked. This has to happen in the Bronze Age.

One of the reasons Chariot Archers rule in Hills is you don't need a forward base. They are fast, and can be used for offense and defense. Start making your Archery Ranges in front of your villagers. Defend and attack from that base. You must start attacking opponent villagers within 20 minutes. When your opponent counters, run back to your base and gather all of your troops. Never allow a smaller group of Chariot Archers to fight a larger opponent's army.

Continue to harrass the opponent's economy and never let up.

In my opinion, you would be foolish to waste time learning gold civ strategies first because they are less effective and not necessary if you can become a great Bronze Age player on Hills. Compies are too slow, gold piles are too easy to choke off, Stone Throwers are too expensive and slow, and Cav is a waste of resources against a large Chariot Archer army.

I would say that your greatest advantage against less experienced players is that they are easily taken out of their comfort level and building pattern if their economy is constantly attacked. They will usually make the mistake of trying to Iron too soon to combat this. If they Iron with a small economy and you constantly keep growing while attacking all over the map, you will win.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 03-30-04 12:24 PM ET (US)     68 / 263       
... unless they get scythes.

Blitz:
The speed of compies doesn't matter in a fight.

Gold mines aren't easy to cut off once you get going, because compies win every fight.

Agreed about STs and cavs, they are nowhere near cost-effective against CAs.

DX:
Armoured eles lose to heavy armour (cents), ranged weapons (helos, HHAs, compies, CAs), and priests.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 03-30-04 12:27 PM ET (US)     69 / 263       
Blitz:
What are the odds that DX will ever have more experience at CA rushing than you?

Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
PL Guderian
Clubman
posted 03-30-04 03:55 PM ET (US)     70 / 263       
Who's CA?
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 03-30-04 04:12 PM ET (US)     71 / 263       
wedsaz:

I'll take 120 Chariot Archers against 4-6 scythe any day.

The odds that DX will ever have more experience at CA rushing than me is the whole point of me posting this information to him. He has no chance of ever having more experience than me at RoR, but that only means I "might" have something to tell him (and you) about winning on the Zone.

Hills is the most unforgiving map of RoR. It totally exposes poor micromanaging skills and poor decisions/strategies.

If DX (or anyone) wants to play Hills competitively on the Zone, they need to know how to win so they don't spend several months wasting their time.

It seems like a waste of time to tell someone not to play how the good players play because you can't beat them, so pick an inferior strategy to "counter" them with.

So the place to start is having a very effective Stone Age and Tool Age economy. The whole goal of this early economy is get you booming Chariot Archers from at least three archeries as fast as you can. Every time you play, you should get better and better until it becomes "easy" for you to get to Bronze at a good time with a strong enough economy to support the military you need.

The next thing to look at is what to do with the military that you are making. You have to start keeping track of when the first time you kill enemy villagers is. If you never attack enemy villagers, you will never win. If you wait to attack until you have 100 villagers, you will never win. Why? More experienced players boom better later in the game, and there is no getting around that fact.

I am simply saying don't waste time thinking that Hills is a map where Heavy Cats, Armoured Eles, Centurions, etc. are the units that you want to have. You want to be the player that can attack first, maintain constant pressure on opponent's economy, while continually making more military and keeping that military active. Do this in the Bronze Age with Chariot Archers and you are on the road to success.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 03-31-04 05:18 AM ET (US)     72 / 263       
Guderian, CAs refers to Chariot Archers.

Ok, I'll try to do CA rushes now... Actually, I've tried to do so the last few games, but I was too slow. I tried to assemble a reasonably-sized CA army before attacking. However, it's either my opponent strikes first with a bigger army or I find that my routes to attack the opponent are blocked by walls. Then I have to go get STs, which further slows me down. In the end I just lose it all.

Sure, I'll spend (whatever little amount of) time I have for RoR practicing with CAs to get a reasonable attack time. However, what other good early-attack combinations are there other than CA-rushing?

I understand the importance of making the first attack, but I'm just too slow to carry it out effectively. My first few units simply get massacred if I'm playing against good rooks. The best Tool-rush I had was against a fellow rook, me using Hittite archers to destroy his economy. I killed all of his villies but he reached Bronze with a handful of CAs. He probably thought that I could continue destroying him with masses archers, so he resigned. Little did he know that I was low on food.

Hmm... are Centurions that good? Fighting against Eles??

Thanks for both of your help, Wedsaz and Blitz. I've learnt a lot, and I'm going to get some practice when time allows. Hopefully I'll improve again.


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 03-31-04 01:24 PM ET (US)     73 / 263       
Blitz:
120 CAs = 4800 food, 8400 wood
iron + upgrade + 60 scythes = 3400 food,1600 gold, 4800 wood
I think that's closer to the odds you're likely to face in such a case.

Bringing an uzzi to a swordfight is never a bad idea.

Fighting fire with fire is a sure way to get burned.

YMMV, batteries not included.

DX:
On second thought, do try CA rushing again. You'll never beat the experts that way, you can certainly give other rooks a good thrashing.

Tool rushing combos include...
x clubbers w/armor (3-4)
- "poke" opponent into making tool units, then bronze rush!
- use only once, and go bronze
- persian, roman, shang, or any other civ

x bowmen (5+)
- good villie-killers, but too slow to catch them
- use only once, and go bronze
- assy, hittite, shang, persian, roman

x towers (expensive, and don't move)
- use to cover ground after bowmen or clubbers
- roman, babs, choson, palmy, ...

Bronze rushing combos include...
x cavalry (4-6)
- add scout for vision
- use only once, then switch to camels or CAs
- persian, yammy, shang, assy, roman

x camels (6-10)
- add scout or CA for vision
- persian, shang, assy, egypt, hittite

x CAs (12+)
- good for attacking, not defending
- attack till you win or die
- assy, hittite, shang, egypt, others

x compies (20+)
- good for defending, not attacking
- defend till you finish a battle with an army, then attack
- shang, mino, yammy, egypt, persian

Those in bold are great at the strat, the others just good.

Overall then:
x shang, for any strat
x assy and yammy for both tool and bronze
x persian and roman for tool rushing
x egypt and hittite for bronze rushing

then there's combos that really only work with one civ...

Going iron isn't a good idea except in two situations...
x bronze war got so big, iron isn't a big expense anymore
- (like blitz's 120 CAs example)
- use scythes, HAs, eles, cats to gain the advantage

x you tool rushed, but have weaker bronze units
- (roman, persian)
- use scythes, HAs, eles, cats to even the odds

Overall though, CA rushing is the easiest way to kill rooks.
(So I guess I'm agreeing with blitz... unbelieveable.)


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 03-31-04 01:48 PM ET (US)     74 / 263       
DX:
You need a fast econ for any strat, there's no way around that. Continue to practice scouting, hunting, optimize your woodcutting, ratios of food to wood, stone villies to tool villies, etc.

--

You don't need the first attack, just the first successful attack. If you're too slow to CA rush faster than your opponents, you have two choices. You can either attack with something else (tool 'em!) or win the first fight defensively (what I've been talking about with compies).

If you tool rush, hit once and go for bronze. Either your tool rush mows down his woodies, or he puts up some resistance - either way, you adding more tool units won't change much.

If you go compies, nothing says you can't mix them with CAs if you're shang or egypt. Your opponent will probably attack the compies, so the CAs will still be alive at the end to go attack. If your opponent is assy or hittite, he can't do the same to you.

--

Congratulations! You just learned something important about rushing - it's usually a bluff. This is important both if you're the rusher, and if you're the one being rushed.

--

Armored eles don't get attack upgrades, whereas centurions get defense upgrades. They also dish out a ton of damage at close range.

Ele archers are another story, they are the compies of the iron age. They are slow but defeat any other archer, and even helos! Like compies however, they are vulnerable to area damage (STs, cats, and scythes).

--

Keep practicing your bronze time! With shang you can get it down to 12 mins.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 03-31-04 06:15 PM ET (US)     75 / 263       
wedsaz:

I'm fairly sure your realize this, but I will spell it out anyways.

If I have a larger Bronze Age and Military --- lets say 75-80 villagers and 75-80 Chariot Archers (which is very realistic if I'm on cruise control at the 30-35 minute mark... how is someone going to "hide" from a full map of Chariot Archers long enough to:

1) Stop or slow down making military to save 1800 resources to Iron.

2) Wait out the 2:40 to advance to Iron Age.

3) Save another 2000 resources for Scythe.

4) Wait out the Scythe upgrade.

5) Have resources to build 5-10 stables.

6) Keep small groups of Scythe away from Chariot Archers until you have a mass of at least 20 so you will only be out numbered 4-1.

The uzzi will win everytime.......

As for Tool Age warfare on Hills, one of the most effective strategy for less experienced players is a Yamato Scout rush.

Simply make 20-21 TTL real villagers in Stone, arrive to Tool quickly and make 2-3 stables, and attack when the first one comes out. Effective scout rushes are devastating, but it takes practice micromanaging Scouts as villagers are fleeing all over the map.

However, Tool Age warfare is risky on Hills because if you fail, you die a terrible and embarrassing death to Bronze Age militaries.



Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-01-04 04:58 AM ET (US)     76 / 263       
I'm still practicing on CA rushing. I appear to be stuck at a 16-min Bronze time. I can't improve it (somehow)... I've tried sending at least 18 villies to gather food as Blitz suggested. I usually have them either hunting or foraging in a total of at least 3 spots and I get something like an 11-min Tool. After that I have to wait for a while before I click on the Bronze upgrade at around 14-min. That's partially because I spend some food on upgrades like toolworking and woodworking. I still find myself slow at Tooling, I don't know why. Practice makes perfect, I guess. I need more practice.

I think, since I haven't learnt how to Bronze-rush well, I shouldn't concentrate so much on the more difficult Tool rush yet. The scout rush does seem to suit me though. It would help me a lot in my exploring, and I prefer faster units (probably to compensate for my overall slowness in the game ). I'll try to get a good CA attack time for now. I can't really organise a good-sized army of CAs soon after I Bronze because I don't have enough wood. I've tried relocating some food villies to the wood pit, but then I seem to have too little food. I'll continue trying to get the balance right.

This game is... really tough. Would be good if I could have a game with you guys some day... Rather hard though, since we come online at different times and I'm not really free for Zone games most of the time.


D XUAN
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-01-04 09:41 AM ET (US)     77 / 263       
Aha! I just achieved my first victory against a fellow rook on hills. It was 1v1, hills, default settings, hardest, pop 200.

I planned to use the CA rush against my opponent here, so I chose Assy, for their increased rate of fire for archers. My opponent seemed be planning to use CAs too, for he chose Hittites.

I Tooled in 11 minutes and Bronzed in 15+ mins. The Bronze timing is considerably better than what I usually have (16- 17mins). I had plenty of resources when I entered Bronze age, food and wood, I mean. I added 2 more archery ranges to my front base for a total of 4. I walled up other gaps well so I didn't have to worry about infiltration.

Meanwhile, I sent a scout to locate the opponent's base. Once I had about 15 to 20 CAs, I charged them forward to attack enemy villies. It happened that they were walling up, so I shot a few down and entered through whatever gaps there were. I searched for enemy villies, mowed them down together with a few resisting enemy CAs. I was sort of fortunate that I didn't let him grow too big, or he would have been able to destroy my invading forces. While I was attacking, even more CAs were being pumped out back at home, so I was almost assured of victory. It was a little hard to nab all of the villies, and a few escaped to build a base elsewhere. I busied myself destroying the opponent's initial base and searching for stray villies who built siege workshops and more ranges.

When I hit Iron, I threw my forces at his new base (which contained nothing more than 4 houses, one TC, one government center and 3 archery ranges) and after a while of pursuit, I got all of his villies and he surrendered. I was quite satisfied with my overall performance.

Villager high here was only 53, because I had plenty of resources and didn't really need more. This game was relatively easy... just that the opponent had the knack of running his villies away, making them hard to find and kill.

Screenshots: http://www.xeenslayer.netfirms.com/AoE/aoerorzonescreenshots.html#ZoneRMHill-2-victory


D XUAN
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-01-04 11:08 AM ET (US)     78 / 263       
Duan Xuan:

Congrats on the Zone victory.

One tip to help your Bronze time is to not do any upgrade until you start advancing to the Bronze Age. The only Tool Age upgrade I ever do on Hills is Woodworking, unless I am Tool rushing.

Also, I don't spend the resources on a Stable and a Scout, (or any army) on Hills if I am going for a quick time to attack with Chariot Archers. There is little advantage for the cost of the wood and food.

I am not on the Zone a lot anymore, but put me on your friends list and ZM me if you ever see me. The name I use now is _I_M_On_Tilt_

Talk to ya soon.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 04-01-04 01:03 PM ET (US)     79 / 263       
Congrats.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-01-04 01:50 PM ET (US)     80 / 263       
Blitz:
You can't run or hide from CAs. You can kill 'em, though.

CAs-compies-HAs-scythes.

CAs for initial raiding, compies once the battle becomes a steady flow, HAs to capitalize on iron advantage, scythes for the long haul.

--

There's other options for effective defense, but mixed archers is the one most compatible with normal CA ops - compie upgrade is cheap, you've already got archeries, and you can (and must!) keep training CAs in the archeries that aren't making compies.

Once the battle gets going, nobody does economic damage anyway. Compies on defense, on that kind of scale, will save you resources to iron, build stables, and get scythes.

Keep fighting during the iron and scythe upgrades, as your opponent surely will.

There's other advantages in early iron while you wait for the unstoppable power that is scythes. Alchemy helps all your existing CAs, increasing their attack by 25%. HAs are good, you won't need much gold once you've got scythes, and they raid even better than CAs.

Start using scythes as soon as you have them, mixing in with your CAs/HAs... at worst they will soak up damage and keep your CAs alive longer, and with some luck they will get close enough to do some damage. As you get more stables, the ratio can move to more scythes and more trampling.

Of course, none of this makes any sense if the battle got decided by the initial rush. I'm talking about tie-breaking.

Then there's romans...


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 04-01-04 02:11 PM ET (US)     81 / 263       
I always wonder what happens with your CA rush strat if you play with random civs and you don't get a CA civ.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-01-04 03:04 PM ET (US)     82 / 263       
peter:
Tool rush and/or cav rush.

Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-01-04 04:20 PM ET (US)     83 / 263       
peter:

That is a good point because all I ever play is Random Civs.

When I get Assy, I know it is game over....

Shang, Egyptian, Hittite, Phoenician, and Summerian makes me a very happy man. I don't complain too much with Babylon either.

It is interesting when I get Yamato because I really have a few different options that work well for me: Tool Scout rush against CA civs, Cav rush against failed Tool rushes and slow CA civs, or the 26-28 villager "boom" for a Compie army.

Minoan gives me an early decision because I love Mino Compies, yet I need a good strong start to survive long enough to mass Compies as my first "big" army. I sometimes do a delayed Tool attack with 2-3 bowmen for scouting and harrassing measures.

Roman is usually either a 20 villager axer/slinger rush, or a cav rush if I have good early food.

Greek, Carth, Choson usually I do clubber/axer rush or if food is good I will do a scout rush.

Palmy and Persia is very map dependant. Persia Scout rush and Cav rush is common for me. Palmy is very intense for me and there is no telling what I do.

My Mace on Hills can be borderline hillarious against CA civs if I can live long enough to start booming Hoppies and ST's.


wedsaz:

Rarely, and I mean very rarely, is the game not decided within the first 25 minutes. It might not be over for several minutes, but it is decided. Only rookies quit attacking economies and let their opponents boom. It is rarely army vs. army squaring off in the center of the map.

I realize that there are all kinds of techs and unit combos that work in theory, but no theory is effective if your opponent has 100+ Chariot Archers.

I will agree with you that Scythe can change the entire battlefield as it becomes the dominant unit later in the game. The problem with your theory is usually Scythe is playing mop up with Chariot Archer support against a beat down opponent, not saving a small opponent from a big bad bully.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-01-04 05:11 PM ET (US)     84 / 263       
blitz:
Yeah, back when I was playing regularly it didn't last even that long. First round of CAs, a counter-attack if it failed, and someone was dead. Few bothered hiding, it was pointless.

Do you tower with your roman tool rush? All the good roman players I've seen do, so they can move their army to the next village, without the opponent being able to reclaim his town...

When the first charge comes and goes without civilian casualties (rare I agree but it does happen), then games tend to be very long. That's where I'm saying a switch to defense can give enough of an edge to get a step up and break the stalemate. That's all.

I've seen turnarounds due to tech, but the econ has to be there for it. You could say it was already decided, but the opponent didn't always know it... like say you're in bronze with roman vs assy (couldn't rush everyone at once and your allies were rooks)... he's still surprised when you come out with scythes and whop him, even though he had it comin'.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-01-04 09:03 PM ET (US)     85 / 263       
Blitz, for the game yesterday, I didn't research woodworking until after my first attack. I find scouts better at scouting though (as their name suggests ) and one advantage they have is that they are passive units. I can let them enter enemy base without them attacking villies too early. I can then send a bigger army to surprise him. It's more fun that way, and personally, I don't find 150 wood and 100 food that much... It gives me at most 2 CAs. Not that much of a difference?...

Also, why do you say that "the game is over" for you when you choose Assy for a CA rush? From the game I had yesterday, and a couple others against the CPs, I find them a very good civ for CA rushing. They have fast villies who gather resources faster and increased rate of fire for the CAs. I thought I chose a very good civ yesterday.

I agree that the outcome of most games can be determined quite early in the game. I attacked in like... 20 mins, IIRC, and I was almost assured with victory by 30-min, which I did achieve in the end. I'm starting to like early-rushing. Very fun to see enemy villies yelling and falling... hehe...

Peter, playing random civs is what I fear most. I don't understand many civs, their bonuses and their tech trees well. One good example is Choson. I've never played using them before. Once, I was playing Medit with random civ, and I got Egypt... Ok, it ain't that bad, but I prefer using civs with bonuses and advantages. Needless to say, I was defeated. I prefer Minoan, Yammy or Hittite for Medit maps.

Wedsaz, I don't quite understand what's so good about Roman except that they have cheaper buildings and half-priced towers? I used them before but I wasn't really able to maximise the use of Towers. Maybe I don't know how to use them well enough, but I wonder, what if the enemy is able to avoid the towers altogether? What advantage would I have then? Or what if they blow the hell out of my towers with siege? Moreover, I never seem to have enough stone because I don't have spare villies to send for stone mining. It's only until I hit Bronze where I can pump out more villies before I can get towering to become slightly more effective...


D XUAN
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-02-04 11:20 AM ET (US)     86 / 263       
Duan Xuan:

It is game over when I get Assy on Hills because it will take a miracle for my opponent to win I really have no other plan than reach 200 pop with CAs and villagers with Assy, while constantly attacking all over the map. I will attack first, the most often, and with the most units. There is no good counter against Assy after I have thinned out opponent villagers and now have 30-40 Chariot Archers and my opponent only has a handful of any army units.

I don't make a Stable and Scout(s) when I am playing a Chariot Archer civ "usually" because:

1) I don't want to slow down my Bronze time spending extra resources.

2) The Scouting I need after 12-13 minutes is for only finding the enemy, and I always know where they are approximately anyways. Chariot Archers have a good LOS, so I look for enemy villagers with Chariot Archers rather than Scouts. Basically the Scout is obsolete for me the second my first Chariot Archer is made.

Also, I usually research woodworking right after I hit the Bronze upgrade. It is finished in time for me to research the wheel the second I reach Bronze Age.

wedsaz:

Towers, even Roman towers, are usually a waste of resources against good players. I usually do a 3-4 barracks Tool attack with Axers and Slingers, and sometimes throw up an offensive tower or two if my Stone stockpile is getting a surplus later in the attack.

I will only tower heavy if my opponent somehow Bronzes while I will be in Tool longer (failed Tool rush). My hope is that he finds walls/towers with Chariot Archers and it takes him more time to mine gold, build a Seige Workshop and get a Stone Thrower. Meanwhile I can get to Bronze.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-02-04 11:31 AM ET (US)     87 / 263       
Mmm, do you get Compies later on for defence then? Or do you still use CAs?

Ha... one game now?


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-02-04 12:55 PM ET (US)     88 / 263       
DX:
150w and 100f is a big difference until after you're bronzing.

Choson - Like greek, not much going for them before iron. They do get impies and +2 tower range though.

Egypt - Even with no economic bonuses, they are still one of the best CA civs due to a +33 chariot, CA and scythe hit points bonus. They also have compies and camels.

Roman - Cheaper buildings make them a fast civ, comparable to assy and yammy overall, and easier for them to mount a tool attack with combined forces. They also get chariots, impies, cheap towers, and a strong iron.

--

Towers by themselves are useless. However, you can put them in places that inconvenience your opponent. He either avoids them (along with any strategic resources they may be guarding), or brings up siege - a big expense which you can multiply by using siege-killing chariots/camels/cavs.

Two uses for towers, offensive and defensive.

Offensive towers - spread them out thinly over an opponent's town after a normal tool rush, to keep him from coming back. Usually 2-3 towers in the right places does a good enough job.

Defensive towers - Don't bother if you have CAs or compies. For the other civs to survive bronze however, a network of towers with some kind of cavalry units to kill STs gives you a chance, especially if you knocked out one or two opponents in tool.

Use compies if you fail the first attack, or fail to be the first to attack. After you repel your opponent's CAs, if you've got enough units left, it's time to counter-attack (preferably with CAs). Do not sit back and relax when you have an army and your opponent is defenseless.

The better your attack, the easier it is to defend. The better your defense, the easier it is to attack. Do both.

Blitz:
Roman can get 3 towers for the price of 1 ST. Their towers are cheaper than even CAs, so you should have plenty enough of them to cover your town and a large area around it, with resources to spare for chariots to kill any STs. Then all you have to do is iron, get scythes and kill all.

Obviously this works better if you did some damage in tool.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-04-04 06:17 AM ET (US)     89 / 263       
Mmm, then Greek and Choson are good civs for DM?

For an offensive tower strategy after a tool rush, I need plenty of stone. In that case, how many villies should I allocate in Stone and Tool age for stone mining? I think I need to work on my towering. In almost all games I play, I have no towers at all, only walls. That's because I don't send any villies to mine for stone. I really have no idea how to use them well for defence. It's either the enemy storms my base and towers with cats and murder all of my villies or I do that to him and hence find no use for tower defences. Most of the time I tower up, I waste my villies to mine stone and build towers.


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-04-04 06:11 PM ET (US)     90 / 263       
duan_xuan:
I'd say there's 3 kinds of towering.

1. Support towering, where you do an axer/bowman rush, and when your opponent runs you leave towers behind to guard his town while your army moves on to another opponent. You don't need many, just enough to keep him from bringing his villies back and chopping wood at his old pit.

2. Offensive towering, where towers are the main part of your rush. This is a very heavy rush, you will not be able to bronze if you do this, so don't do it if your civ can do ok in bronze. You need a lot of stone, and 2-4 tower builders near an enemy's base. Make sure you research stone mining, it will increase your stone mining by 44%. Start towering outside his town, in a triangular pattern where towers cover each other, so by the time he sees a tower he can't attack it without at least two others shooting at him as well. Space your towers as far apart as possible though, so you won't need as many of them to cover your opponent's town, and thus less stone. Keep your forward builders away from the action, if they are making a tower and you see angry villies coming then cancel the tower and go try again later. Soon your opponent will be forced to relocate, and you can use the towers to destroy his houses as well - a major setback. If you can do this to two or all three opponents, your team will finish them off easily once they get CAs. You might also use scouts to follow the fleeing villies and kill some off while they can't easily make more.

3. Defensive towering, where you use towers to delay your opponent while you try to iron. This is a big commitment, not worth it if your civ is strong in bronze, since you'll need enough towers to cover a radius twice as long as CAs can shoot - that's a lot of towers, but it can be done. Like offensive towering, you want a triangle pattern where towers cover each other, spaced far apart so you'll need less stone. You will also want to "claim" stone and gold mines. However, for this to work in bronze, you need a way to deal with STs, and that is cavalry (or some other stable unit). You don't need many however, just enough to kill the STs and retreat back among the towers. If you get targetted by CAs before reaching the ST, run back among the towers - they may follow, in which case they will die and you will laugh.

4. Takeover towering, combining offense and defense. If you can, use offensive towering to force an opponent out of his town, then move into it - some of your defensive towers are already in place, and your opponent is on the run! Make any new buildings in or near the new town, so you won't leave much behind in your old one. Any tool unit he makes in your new town, you can focus all your towers on and it will be gone before you can say "abadabus".

The only civ you would pick for towering is roman, since babylon and palmy have CAs. The others are civs you get in random and don't know what to do with - choson, carth, and greek. You can't do much in bronze with them, so you might as well go all out for a tool rush.

For other slow civs like egypt, minoan or sumerian, walls are cheaper and can stop CAs until STs come along, by which time you can have a good bronze army. Greek can't have a good bronze army, their archers are too weak.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-04-04 08:42 PM ET (US)     91 / 263       
Oh also, while your forwards wait for the tower tech, you should have them build a forward barracks, stable, and some houses. That way if your opponent makes a few slingers you can fight them with clubs or axers, and you can make scouts to chase fleeing villies, and once you take the town over your military buildings are already nearby where you want them.

Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
PL Guderian
Clubman
posted 04-05-04 06:32 PM ET (US)     92 / 263       
Cavaly archers are the most elite raiding unit. They can get in and get out in a matter of time just after killing many villagers.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-05-04 08:14 PM ET (US)     93 / 263       
PL Guderian:
Or, if you're playing the wrong game, you get 0wn3d while looking for the "advance to feudal age" button.

(hint: this one has sumerians)


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-06-04 05:31 AM ET (US)     94 / 263       
Why is it that I'm having a feeling that Guderian has been in the wrong forum all this while?...

Anyway, back to the topic. I doubt I'm the type who can do offensive towering well. Somehow towers don't fit into my style of playing. Maybe I need to learn it soon...

About defensive towering, do I tower up in my base or around my base?... Most of the time I build towers, they are situated around the perimeters of my base.


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-06-04 12:13 PM ET (US)     95 / 263       
DX:
Usually they will try to run past your towers, to go kill your villagers. That means you have to start towering in your base where your towers can't simple be avoided.

Then expand out to increase firepower, and so they can start shooting before the enemy's CAs do.

Also, don't hesitate to fight the CAs inside your towers with whatever military you have (chariots, camels, cavs, impies, even clubbers). As long as you keep them in the towers without shooting at villies, they take more damage than they cause.

Running away isn't really an option for the rushers if you tower out enough, since the towers will kill them off on the way out just as surely as if they stayed.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-06-04 02:13 PM ET (US)     96 / 263       
wedsaz exposes the true problem with using towers. If you tower "in" your base, your opponent will usually gladly sacrifice his army if he can kill all villagers in the process. So you waste all that time and resources on stone and towers just for a group of Chariot Archers/Compies to come and kill all of your villagers.

Duan Xuan don't make the mistake of ever using towers if you want to become a good RM player. Offensive, defensive, whatever the case might be.... there is always a better way to spend the resources than mining stone for towers.

For towers to be "effective" you need over five towers to present any opposition and you might as well build something that can chase the enemy out of your town right into his.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
Czech Centurian
Clubman
posted 04-06-04 04:43 PM ET (US)     97 / 263       
I use towers at crossings. Two on either side of the crossing and then one a little further back inbetween the two.
X'....'X

...X

Some thing like that although it won't always be a straight river. Even beter when there are elevations.

It also acts as a beakon to warn you. You will see the attackers comming and know where to concentrate your army.
Massed Archers or ballista.

But hey thats me.


Czech Centurian
"Most Checks are written, I'm a Czech that was born."

Save Water, Drink Beer

[This message has been edited by Czech Centurian (edited 04-06-2004 @ 04:45 PM).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-06-04 08:03 PM ET (US)     98 / 263       
Blitz:
With upgrades, stone is 44% faster to gather than food and wood. This means towers at full price are in fact cheaper than CAs in resource gathering time. That leaves towers' building time, vs archeries' resource gathering and building time.

Five towers? I'm talking more along the lines of a dozen just to start, easily twice that by the time CAs can arrive on the scene. You can start towering in tool but you can't make CAs until bronze.

If you tower right around your woodies, your opponent will usually sacrifice his army for nothing, several times over, before realizing he needs STs. Then you'll usually kill his lone ST a few times with chariots before he starts guarding it better. By then you'll usually kill not only his ST but also his CAs, because you'll have a large and growing army of scythes.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 04-06-04 08:38 PM ET (US)     99 / 263       

My Karma ran over my Dogma

AoEH | EEH | RoNH | IndividualsCAN

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-06-04 08:52 PM ET (US)     100 / 263       
wedsaz:

Don't turn this into another one of those "wedsaz has no clue about the game" thread. If you spend the time to get resources for 5 towers, let alone "dozens" of towers, your opponent will spend his resources wiser and kill you how ever he wants in Tool and Bronze.

Anybody that has played the game more than twice isn't going to keep sacrificing by running into a "matrix" of towers.

Reality is that towers are fine and dandy when you have 200 pop and lots of resources to play with (already game over).

In Tool Age, Bronze Age, and early Iron Age, only fools will mine stone for towers.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
« Previous Page  1 2 3 4 ··· 6  Next Page »
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires Heaven | HeavenGames