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Topic Subject:Defence in RM hill country
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Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 01-28-04 06:41 AM ET (US)         
Hi all, I've been spending whatever free time I have these days trying out a type of terrain new to me, the hills. I've read some of the tips in the MP strategy pages already, but I still find these maps rather tricky to handle.

Ok, I play against the CP and wallop it everytime. However, I frequently have enemy villies infiltrating into my side of the map. It doesn't kill me, but it's extremely agitating, especially in the earlier stages of the game. I usually explore about half of the map ("my side") by mid-Tool. I've uncovered important resources and all 22 of my villies are working hard to gather wood and food for a decent Bronze timing. That means all my resources are being stockpiled for age-advance. I have practically no military except for a couple of pathetic bowmen. I only start booming out my army when I reach Bronze and have researched the wheel (I love CAs ).

I don't know if Bronzing in 16 to 18 minutes in hill terrain is ok?... If it's bad, are there any tips to improve the timing? Should I start off with more villies or something?

Anyway, back to the topic of defence. Before I reach Bronze, I see a couple of enemy villies exploring my territory. That makes me rather panicky since I have to get a few of mine to stop work and get rid of him before he uncovers my whole base. I also start worrying that the enemy army might pay me a visit soon. Fortunately, the CP isn't good enough to do that, so I always win in the end.

However, I'm sure that good players would have their army overrun my base in no time. I've thought of setting up defences like walls and towers, but they're practically useless. I can't possibly dedicate so many of my villies on stone mining. Moreover, walling and towering is time-costly. It'll definitely kill my economy and prevent me from going to Bronze.

Are there any tips and suggestions for a better form of defence instead? I don't want the enemy to sneak into my base through a gap in the flank and start creating havoc while my troops are far away at the front. Neither do I want to dedicate too many of my villies on walling.


D XUAN
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Dr Lorenzo
AOEH Seraph
posted 04-07-04 01:45 AM ET (US)     101 / 263       
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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-07-04 03:55 AM ET (US)     102 / 263       
Blitz:
We covered this already. Your opponent needs more time and resources for CAs than you do for towers.

People who have played (much) more than twice do keep running their CAs into a matrix of towers. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I wouldn't believe it either.

But hey, if you don't want to use it next time you get stuck with cho, that's your business.

As for fools and stone mining, you're entitled to your opinion but DX asked for some information, so I'm giving it to him.

With you here, I'm not stuck having to argue with myself to give a balanced overview! How lucky is that?


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Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-07-04 07:42 AM ET (US)     103 / 263       
Ok, ok guys... Take it easy, alright? Time for another of DX's rookie RM hill adventures again.

I just had a 2v2 game on the Zone just now. I only took one screenshot here for the timeline:

http://www.xeenslayer.netfirms.com/AoE/aoerorzonescreenshots.html#ZoneRMHill-3-timeline

I (brown) partnered with red. Such a coincidence that the game was a Roman vs Hittite game Right from the start I knew that I wasn't going to win this game. My berries were right on top of a 4-elevation hill! I had a bad villager lag but still managed to make a 19-min Bronze (awful, isn't it? ). Since I was Roman, I decided to use Chariots (swordies were too slow and made me gold-dependent, I thought).

I previously thought that my partner was probably having a bit of difficulty in his start, but when I had a look at the timeline at 20-min, I had the shock of my life. I suppose you can all see it for yourselves. Oh god, I told myself, DX you've got a newbie for a partner.

Naturally he was made the focus of attack. Yellow attacked him with a handful of CAs at about 25-min, and I rescued him with my chariots. After that I boomed chariots and STs until, as you can see from the timeline, I had almost half of the total world population. It became a 1v2 battle though my partner was able to escape with 3 villies to my base. He helped me out with the walling and towering. Although it wasn't of much use, I appreciated it. He committed himself much to the defence of my base. What a nice partner to have. I didn't blame him. After all he was just a newbie. At least he made an effort to help me out instead of resigning outright.

Well, I attacked green when I saw that he had Ironed. The raid wasn't too bad but yellow came to his rescue. After that the game went down and down for me... They contantly attacked me and destroyed my forward bases with green eles. I thought it was not too bad that I had killed no less than 30 of those huge beasts with Cats and Scythes. I was thrown back from attacking to defending when my forward bases and units were destroyed.

Needless to say, I lost that game. I resigned when yellow stormed in with numerous Scythes together with green, who brought along CAs and eles.

I thought this was a good experience for me, since I seldom play team games. Made me realise the importance of a good start (nice berry spot and a fast Tool). The main reason why I lost, I reasoned, was because I couldn't Tool early enough, or I would have rushed one of the opponents with either Tool or Bronze units. Next time.


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-07-04 12:47 PM ET (US)     104 / 263       
DX:
You had another berry patch, and two hunting spots... I'm not sure about this, but maybe it would have been worth skipping the hillberries at first and getting started with one of your other food sources?

Roman vs hittite? You could have won that one in tool.

Were they armored eles? As roman, use helos or cents for that.

Did it make you realize the importance of a good ally?


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Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-08-04 04:44 AM ET (US)     105 / 263       
I know, I realised that I was being too stubborn to go for hill berries. The closest gazelle group was on the hill too. I should've went further away to another berry patch instead, but I thought that it would slow me down too much... Apparently not.

Yep those were armoured eles (can't clearly remember... should be) but I did not have a lot of gold to spend on academy units.

Why is it that I would win because I was playing as Roman?... I couldn't Tool-attack because my opponents were already in Bronze. I figured it would be pointless to spend so much time looking for their bases, mass a Tool army and throw it at them... So I advanced to Bronze instead and went for the chariot approach, which was pretty successful at first.

LOL yeah, I sure realised the importance of a good ally. The two opponents weren't that good. They couldn't boom fast early in the game and they didn't seem to know very well how to attack early. I could've done that to them, but I couldn't due to my poor age-advance timings.


D XUAN
PL Guderian
Clubman
posted 04-08-04 02:43 PM ET (US)     106 / 263       
Get some calvary to deal with the villagers and build defenses on the hilltop berries. Use soldiers to defend rather than use walls and towers. They'll be ruble by the onslaught of siege engines in practically no time.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-08-04 02:44 PM ET (US)     107 / 263       
DX:
You had gold to spend on cats, didn't you? Academy units are cheaper, and fat more effective vs eles.

I looked at the timeline - you still tooled before they reached bronze. With a normal spot, you could have tooled as early as them with a bigger econ. Given your bad spot, you should have made less villies and tooled earlier, so you'd still have time to tool rush him.

Impies might have worked better than chariots once the numbers increased.

Go for the weaker player (yellow) first. He's easier to kill off, then you're left with a stressed opponent backed by a whining ghost. Most allies are a burden after getting rushed, instead of being mildly helpful like yours was.


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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-09-04 01:33 PM ET (US)     108 / 263       
PL Guderian:

How many times have you played RoR online? My guess would be under five times. Your time might be better spent taking advice here rather than giving it


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PL Guderian
Clubman
posted 04-09-04 04:41 PM ET (US)     109 / 263       
Eh... Only twice. I won one, and lost one.
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-15-04 09:32 AM ET (US)     110 / 263       
Ok, I'll remember to use academy units when I need to fight eles in the future. The problem with me is that I don't use a variety of units. If I use cavalry I go for them all the way without producing any infantry. If I use CAs, I don't bother to upgrade for impies and compies.

I just had four games today. For all of them I used Assy to practice the CA rush. The first two games were against different rookies. I beat them easily. My age-timings are still not satisfactory though. The worse one was 17mins and the other one was not much better- 15mins. The rest was just a matter of pumping out CAs and murdering enemy villies.

The other two games were against the same player though, whom I thought was really good. I screwed up my first game and resigned when I saw that he had hit Bronze. That was even before I reached Tool! My most humiliating game ever, I swear... I didn't bother to wait for his CAs. I only made it to Tool in 16mins, mainly because there were no resources close to my base! I swear, I couldn't find a second hunting spot and the second berry spot was miles away on the other side of the map. I can't figure out how the distribution of resources could be so unfair.

The second game wasn't much better. I didn't get to fight him at all, like the previous game. I was able to find resources and made it to Bronze at my usual 16mins, but I realised that was still too slow for him. He charged his CAs in and killed my villies. I hadn't even finished researching the wheel. I resigned. This guy's the best I've seen so far on the Zone. In this second game, he Tooled in 9mins and Bronzed in 12mins, all waaay before me. He had the same number of villies as I did too... Can't imagine how good players can manage their resources so well, sigh.


D XUAN
PL Guderian
Clubman
posted 04-15-04 03:20 PM ET (US)     111 / 263       
So, far, I had lost over at least 20 online games.
Andrea Rosa
Clubman
posted 04-15-04 08:09 PM ET (US)     112 / 263       
Dear, when I venture myself online I really suck!!! 12 played. 0 won. Always crushed before Bronze. That is.

Andrea Rosa
My only fear is to be left without beer

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RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-16-04 05:05 AM ET (US)     113 / 263       
Hah, can't believe people are still playing this game. Just stopped by to see what was going on for kicks.

Anyway, with Rome vs. Hittite on hills, you have the initial advantage. In fact, I would almost always take Rome on hills vs. Hittite, because the speed difference is quite significant. Hittite is slow on hills with no econ advantages. They also have no slingers. So (if I were still) playing this game, I'd do a tool rush with either axers or slingers--9 minutes latest, 8 ideal. In any event, letting Hittite bronze is <i>definitely</i> the wrong move 100% of the time. That's your worst age as a Roman and Hittite absolutely smashes everyone from mid-Bronze onwards. Since CAs reign supreme on hills after Bronze and Hittites have the best CAs (okay, they have less hp than Egy's, whatever...2nd or 3rd best)...well, you get the idea.

By the time a Hittite Irons, you're almost always done. They're isn't really much hope for you as a Roman except scythes, but after a Hittite bronzes you you'll have little wood for those units anyway. Actually, legions are great little buggers that you can make (almost) forever, but the upgrade is too damn expensive.

Anyway, unless the game rules are otherwise, I'd advise you to tool rush 80-90% of the time on hills, even with hill berries. On such a wide open map, you pretty much have to. Back in the day when the top players played, hills was the map for many of the money tourneys and what almost always happened was a battle of axers (or scouts). Fast bronze can be a strong strategy too, of course, but a pure fast bronze gets beaten by a good tool rush (on hills at least) most of the time. If I get a shitty civ like carthage, I almost always either a) tool rush like mad or b) camel rush ASAP.

Oh, and academy units are a waste of money 99% of the time. The only time I ever used them was if I was Greek/Mace in bronze. (Although sometimes I do use them for axer cleanup for fun, but usually I build a stable instead--cavalry are just a lot more versatile and eat axers alive with the +5 bonus, plus you save 200 wood on a building you would have built anyways.) In Iron Age, unless you're playing a Choson who has somehow survived or something (and even then he can make ballistae), I wouldn't ever bother making academy. They cost a ton to upgrade (unit upgrade, attack upgrade, armor upgrade) and get eaten ALIVE by anything ranged. Cats with ballistics kill them because they're so slow. Ballistae and archers kill them so badly it's not even funny. Oh, and they can be converted too. They do okay vs. normal elephants 1-on-1 after you spend 1000 gold getting all the right upgrades, but die to armored elephants or any ranged units behind the elephants.

Towers: waste of time unless you're Roman or Choson or Baby. And even then they're not good. Why? Not only do they not do shit vs raiders unless you have a ton of them, they take EIGHTY villie-seconds to build. If you build a "dozen towers", that's 12*80 = 960 vsecs lost for something that can be taken down easily by a ST. Stone mining might be fast in tool after the upgrade, but by the time you can get that upgrade, I'll already be in Bronze with the option to cav rush you. Not to mention that if I saw you building that many towers, I'd just laugh and use the free 1000 vs advantage to boom away.

Last comment: don't bother with the compie upgrade unless you really plan on making a lot of them. I don't remember the numbers anymore, but search for something like neilkaz compie ca or something like that in google or here, and you'll get a very detailed post with numbers showing you why. On hills, compies aren't that good anyway.

[This message has been edited by RomanGladius (edited 04-16-2004 @ 05:37 AM).]

Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-16-04 08:04 AM ET (US)     114 / 263       
Hi RomanGladius, thanks for your golden advice. Yes, I understand the importance of the early attack but I'm currently not good enough to do a nice Tool rush. You mentioned tool-rushing by 8mins, which is impossible given my skill. The best I can do is a 11min Tooling, so an attack before that is out of the question, not to mention the resultant slow Bronze-timing I would have.

I can't even manage a good CA rush at the moment. I can win against average and lower rooks, but I'm the one who gets rushed if I'm playing against good rooks and inters. I'm still trying to find a balance between woodies and foodies, allocating more villies to food for a faster Tool-time.

Anyway, I just had a couple of games on the Zone again just now. Screenshots can be found here.

The first game was easy. I partnered with blue and as Assy, both of us attacked the opponents with CAs. I handled brown while blue took on green. Quite a straightforward game, this one.

The second game was disastrous, and has made me realise how lousy I am in Tool age warfare. I shouldn't have lost this one, but I expanded too quickly into yellow's territory. There was more than one occasion when we fought over some gazelle. =/ Then I started pumping out bowmen but he clubbed them to death with his villies. Meanwhile, he reached Bronze, much to my dismay. He didn't have to use much resources to counter my archer-attack, while I had to use up quite a lot of food for the bowmen. When I just reached Bronze, he started to attack my helpless villies with his CAs, so I resigned. My partner here, green, wasn't very good either. He had very few villies and had an even smaller econ than I. It didn't take very long for yellow and blue (my partner from the previous game) to finish him off...

I guess I need to get a CA-rush faster and then learn how to Tool-rush quickly. My question now is, what should I do if I'm "sharing" resources with an opponent? Should I act like nothing happened and continue gathering resources? Should I villi-rush him? Or should I get some bowmen to take out enemy villies?


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-16-04 02:50 PM ET (US)     115 / 263       
That difficult compie or CA decision (long and analytical)[b] (Neilkaz)
http://aoe.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/aoecgi/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,2059,,all

[b]Compies redux (Out4Blood)
http://aoe.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/aoecgi/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,356,,all

chariot/slinger combo vs. compie/ST combo (blue_myriddn)
http://aoe.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/aoecgi/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,2757,,all

RomanGladius:

I was talking about academy units specifically as a counter to eles. Phalanx + inf armor upgrades isn't that bad, and with roman you can use the inf upgrades for legions too. Helos are good as well but very vulnerable to CAs until they are massed, and we won't even talk about priests in a CA-heavy game.

Agreed about tool rush on hills, but hittite bowmen can handle axers and small numbers of slingers better than anyone. They'd be vulnerable to massed slingers, or... hmm, tower rushing. (no slingers to counter towers)

Towers may take 80 villie-seconds to build, but you're not taking into consideration resource gathering time, which is by far the bigger cost in villie time involved.

6 towers + stone mining + tower tech
f = 150f @ 0.45 = 333vs
s = 50s + 6*150s = 950s / 0.65s = 1461vs
bt = 6*80vs = 480vs
total = 2274vs

6 bowmen + 2 archeries + archer armor
f = 100f + 6*40f = 340f @ 0.45 = 755vs
w = 2*150w + 6*20w = 420w @ 0.30 = 1400vs
bt = 160? (must be at least 80/archery right?)
total 2315vs

6 normal towers cost about the same as 6 bowmen. Both shoot about the same, bowmen are more mobile but towers are harder to kill. Ok, how about moving your villies to a new pit and bronzing?

Bronze and a new pit
f = 1000f @ 0.45 = 1777vs
w = 120w @ 0.30 = 400vs
total = 2177vs

Hmm, about as much the towers. That doesn't include any houses or villies you may lose in the process, nor what you do once you're in bronze. Now let's look at roman towers.

9 roman towers + stone mining + tower tech
f = 150f @ 0.45 = 333vs
s = 50s + 9*75s = 725s / 0.65s/sec = 1115vs
bt = 9*80vs = 720vs
total = 2168vs

9 towers and hardly breaking a sweat. When roman vs hittite, I say tower rush the **** out of him! You have cheap towers, and he has no early counter. Do it while he still has berries left so you can steal them.

Quote:


If you build a "dozen towers", that's 12*80 = 960 vsecs lost for something that can be taken down easily by a ST.

If you build an ST that's 723 vsecs lost for something that can be taken down easily by a lone villager. (Or, realistically, cavalry). Odds are you'll have to spend more on STs to take down the towers, than the towers cost in the first place.

Quote:

Stone mining might be fast in tool after the upgrade, but by the time you can get that upgrade, I'll already be in Bronze with the option to cav rush you.

Oh, so now you're saying you can bronze on 100f 50s? Or are you saying you can reach bronze before someone can tool and research the stone mining upgrade?


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RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-17-04 04:55 PM ET (US)     116 / 263       
Here's the problem. First of all, it definitely does not take 80 seconds to build an archery, but I'm too lazy to look that up. Towers are one of the buildings that take the longest to build. But while towering is an *okay* (only barely okay) option as supplmental defense if you're Roman, you'll still lose to a CA civ with heavy towering. Here's why. Your towers can only be used on defense and can only stay in one place at a time. Let's say you somehow cover your woodcutters with 2 towers, and you cover the rest of your citizens with 4 other towers. Assuming that the cost of one CA = the cost of one tower (which it does not, when you factor that you have to spend 80vs building *each* tower, while the CAs are built in your one-time investment of the archery range, and you already have a storage pit on wood and probably not on stone), then I will have 6 CAs. So now you have (the equivalent of) 2 CAs firing on my 6 CAs. What happens? I'll just ignore your CAs and kill all your villagers. And you won't be able to do ANYTHING. Since towers can't move, you can't concentrate your firepower. No concentrated firepower = lose vills = end of game.

Sure, you could build some impies or chariots to supplement your towers, but by then you'll have definitely spent a lot more than I did on my CAs. Chariots are only 10 food less, and the impie requires one fairly expensive upgrade to produce.

And since your towers can only play defense, what happens if your opponent chooses to boom? Throwing away 2000 villie seconds building 12 towers is a good way to lose a booming contest.

I will say that I sometimes tower as Mace as supplmental defense because they don't have anything good for defense (besides composites) and their vills can't run (no wheel). The cost doesn't matter as much because you can build the ridiculously cheap stone throwers at half the price of other civs and just steamroll their archers that way.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-18-04 04:56 PM ET (US)     117 / 263       
RomanGladius:
Here's the solution. You need to take into account resources, and the fact that stone is much faster to gather than wood.

1 CA
wood = 70w @ 0.30 = 233vs
food = 40f @ 0.45 = 89vs
total = 322vs

1 normal tower
stone = 150s @ 0.65 = 230vs
bt = 80vs
total = 310vs

That doesn't include archeries, techs, or anything. Now, if you're going to use a tower defense, I recommend three things.

First, rather than tower your initial spot, tower rush and take over your opponent's spot - that way you get maximum effect for your investment.

Second, by bronze you should have 30+ towers so that an enemy can't send CAs at you without going through your towers and being in range of a ton of them. That way there's no choice, he needs STs.

Third, do build at least one stable. You can augment your initial tower rush with a scout rush to catch fleeing villies, then you can re-use the stable for chariots to kill STs and yes, help the towers kill CAs.

I only use towers in bronze with civs that don't have good archers. Why tower with mace when you've got compies?

Civs I would tower with however... roman, choson, greek, and maybe carth. None of them do very well in bronze, and if you did something in tool (such as tower rush), a tower defense may keep you in decent shape until an early iron (scythes, HAs, fast phalanxes), without spending all your gold on a zillion cavs to fight off CAs.

In other words, I'm not comparing towers with CAs so much as what you'd have to use if your civ has no archers.


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RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-18-04 10:24 PM ET (US)     118 / 263       
Your numbers are off. Wood gathers at 0.55/sec, 0.75 with the first upgrade. That doesn't take into acct felling and walking, it's definitely way above 0.30.

Also when preparing for a tower rush, you must gather stone at the slow rate (before upgrade) during stone age. This will slow down your economy significantly. If you don't, you'll only be able to build one tower. Hell, you can just villy storm one tower.

Tower rush can be okay (with roman, bab, or choson), but in RoR slingers can take down towers pretty easily. He can also villie stomp your tower while you're building it if you build it too close. Also, a normal tool rush for roman is a lot faster--you can hit immediately with axemen instead of waiting forever for the towers to build.

[This message has been edited by RomanGladius (edited 04-18-2004 @ 11:06 PM).]

Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-19-04 06:21 AM ET (US)     119 / 263       
Whew, I had a 2v2 game just now and lost it. It was all my fault, we really should have won.

Screenshots: http://www.xeenslayer.netfirms.com/AoE/aoerorzonescreenshots2.html

As you can see I had a pretty good start, compared to all the others anyway. When I reached Bronze, I immediately started pumping out villies, researched the wheel and had three or four forward archery ranges being built. I had located green and he was quite near me. I started creating a few CAs and waited for their numbers to reach about 10 before throwing them at green. Somehow, he had started having CAs as well and he managed to fend off my initial attack. As a result I kept using up my resources on CAs... and I had very few villies (villager high was just 43). It was a fatal mistake for me and my partner (yellow) because my economy was so small. I couldn't take out green all in one go and began to get into a dragged war against him. In the end everyone hit Iron except for me. Needless to say, I ran out of resources pretty quickly and resigned. Without my support, my partner resigned too.

I find that I suck at midgame. Need to practice more on it, getting a decent first attack as well as a fast Iron time. I just wasn't fast enough to knock out green with my first attack. If I had been successful, I'd have caught orange sleeping too... Sigh.


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-19-04 01:18 PM ET (US)     120 / 263       
RomanGladius:
Felling whittles your 0.75 down to 0.65, and even if you pit regularly the best you can expect is about 0.50. The numbers I've heard from people like Blitz were more around 0.234, which is why they don't have the wood for my minoan strat.

(According to my calculations, that's an average distance of about 16 between pit and forest. Horrible, just horrible.)

With a 0.50 wood rate, CAs drop down to 229vs, while roman towers are 195vs, babs w/stone mining can do towers at 237vs and choson needs less of them so it comes out to maybe 198vs. Greek still gets 310vs, if their fast hoplites are good ST killers then this may still be the strat for them.

I agree for tower rushing it's probably best to start mining during the tool upgrade. The way I usually did it though was to keep gathering food during the tool upgrade, then switch everyone to stone once I had stone mining. Sure you can only build one tower before the upgrade, but it's not long before you're overflowing with stone.

With stone mining, here's the ratios...
Greek or Choson - 1 builders / 3 miners
Babs or Palmy - 1 builders / 2 miners
Roman - 2 builders / 3 miners

Duan Xuan:
Two things.

Use 3-4 chariots for the initial rush, with your first CAs thrown in mainly for vision, then add more CAs as you get them. That way you get the best of both melee and archers.

Don't fight hittite with shang late into an age, they will crush you with their superior military. You must upgrade - if you fight their CAs and STs with HAs and scythes, then you will do well.


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RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-20-04 03:44 AM ET (US)     121 / 263       
Wow. Musta been unlucky. How many vills did you have? When your opponent tools in 14:00 or 15:00, he must die every time. You cannot let that kind of victory get away.

Did you research wheel immediately *and* have your ranges ready and pumping? And did you have a good idea where his woodpile was? That's always the first place to hit. Get a couple CA into his woodpile, and if he's still in Tool, the game is over. You definitely should have been able to get a couple CA into his woodpile given the timing--or even a couple camels, if you so choose.

Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-20-04 05:31 AM ET (US)     122 / 263       
I guess the problem with my CA rush is that I wait till I have a large group of them before I attack. Yes, I get my wheel research started immediately after I hit Bronze. It's the first thing I do, even before I pump out more villies. Also, I suppose my mistake was in attacking green instead of orange?... I thought that since green had reached Bronze he could be dangerous, so I could have attacked him and taken him down pretty quickly, since he was still slower than me. Bah, I should've went for orange instead.

I think I'll go on the Zone again for another game and see if I have any improvement. Meanwhile, I can't seem to get my Bronze timing any better.

My strategy for hills is almost always the same for every game.

Stone Age:
HCCC, Villies 1 and 2 BE. V3 explores and searches for berry spot, usually found very quickly. If not, V1 and V2 will help after finishing BE. Build granary by berry spot and send first 5 villies to forage. V6 and V7 chop straggler. V8 becomes explorer. V9 and V10 chop stragglers too. When stockpile hits 120 wood, all villies on wood duty build woodpit and start chopping. The first villager created after the woodpit is built goes to explore in another direction from V3. When I've explored about 15% I send as many villies as I can from the woodpit to work on second and third food sources. I stop villager production when I have 25 or 26 of them. Hit Tool upgrade upon reaching 500 food. Woodies build barracks then get back to work. I usually reach Tool by 12:00.

Tool Age:
HCC. Gather woodies to build a market, then get back to work. V3 build archery range. Research wall. V27 and V28 go to woodpit(s). Hit Bronze upgrade ASAP.

Bronze Age:
Research wheel. HCCC. Idle foodies go to woodpit. A couple of them go farming. Forward villies build 1 or 2 more archery ranges. Send 2 villies to mine gold. Upon completion of wheel research, queue 2 CAs at each range. Keep pumping out CAs. My mistake here is to wait till total number of CAs reaches 10 or so, before sending them to attack enemy. Build government centre only if wood supply allows. After that it's basically where I either win or die.


D XUAN
PL Guderian
Clubman
posted 04-20-04 10:01 AM ET (US)     123 / 263       
No, if you want a fast online game without excessive crowding, go to GameSpy Arcade. I went to the zone once, and there was over 100 people in a room. My connection slowed, and my impatience grew.
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-21-04 05:43 AM ET (US)     124 / 263       
If you're significantly (like one minute) ahead in time and both of you are going for the same units, you must seize your time advantage and attack right away.

One chariot archer in his woodpit at 14:00 will do more damage than 3 at 15:00, if he has wheel researched at 15:00 but not 14:00.

Now, I'm not saying you should always stream your CAs in one by one. But if you're ahead, then by all means send them ASAP and disrupt while you can without interference. If you're relatively even, it probably makes sense to battle in larger numbers using terrain or attacking him in his city.

Look at it this way: two CAs fire at a rate of one shot/1.5 seconds. They kill villies in 4 volleys together (4*2*4 = 32 hps, a villie is 25) or 7 volleys alone. So with two CAs in a woodpit and a one minute advantage, you can (theoretically) kill 10 villagers. End of game.

Similarly, with a camel rush, you have a minute advantage over a CA user. If you wait one more minute to attack when you have 5 camels, you might kill a couple vills, but the first round of CAs will kick your butt and you'll be done. If you attack while he doesn't have CAs, you just might win.

This game has been out a long time. A really good player (ThumP) always did cav rushes (in the days of AoE Yam and Assy domination), and his motto in his strat guides always was, "One cavalry at the woodpit at 13 minutes is better than 3 a minute later." Or something like that. When you have the advantage...seize it. Don't play like a robot; adapt your strategy to what your opponent is doing.

With hindsight, I would have sent 1 or 2 CAs each to your enemies' woodpits. With such a huge time advantage, that would have been the end of the game.

Also, since your opponents were Hittite and you were Shang, it's even MORE important to exploit your time advantage. Shang's dominant timeframe is tool and early bronze because it's just faster than Hittite; but let Hittite live to late bronze (the dominant timeframe for Hittite) and you will lose. You _must_ attack a Hittite before he gets big or you will lose every time.

Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-21-04 06:56 AM ET (US)     125 / 263       
Hmm, yes I understand the importance of speed now... I can do a fast CA rush on weaker players (who are of about the same standard as me) and win now.

However, I can't possibly do a CA rush on someone who Bronzed earlier than me. I had two 2v2 games today on the Zone and lost both of them. Screenshots here

The first game went rather smoothly for me. I partnered yellow and all went fairly well. The biggest problem was that blue was a CA rusher just like me, only much better. As you can see he has got age timings that are far better than mine. I got CA-rushed by him initially and lost a couple of villies, but I walled and was quite well-protected in mid-game. I concentrated on pumping out CAs to attack brown but he had already walled up like I did. Now, blue went for my partner and took him out, so I was left alone.

Punic_Idle (brown) really showed me the true power of villies. I thought that I was safe as neither blue nor brown were attacking me, so I could concentrate on booming my economy. Then brown's villies exploded out and started mass-building TCs. My horde or CAs went for them but because they brown had researched Jihad, those villies took down my CAs like they were nothing. I resigned after seeing that awful scene. I was low on wood and couldn't pump out more CAs or chariots. Plus, brown had infiltrated my base and started painting my woodpits with towers, so I gave up.

The second game, I had a change of partner, someone who was better. Things were VERY bad for me at the start. I lost a total of 3, yes THREE villies to the damned lions! As a result I hit Tool at least a minute late. My Bronze timing was bad too. As in the first game, I couldn't rush my opponent (brown, since I hated him so much for the first game ) because he had walled in. I was using Roman this time round so I went for chariots. I walled in nicely and happily thought that I was safe... I joined my partner (teal) in a few raids against blue but they weren't very effective. My partner, good though he was, simply didn't understand that CAs were dead meat against STs, what a waste. Brown then did the villie-charge on my partner and he resigned. He had also infiltrated my left flank and I couldn't stop him at all since I had no military units there. That's one lesson I learnt: always leave a few units to protect your flanks. And then... he started painting my base like mad, and I resigned... sigh.

Those were two sad stories I had today, just to share with you. I simply can't get a nice under-10 Tool and a 13 Bronze like blue. As you can see the folks I played just now are definitely players of higher calibre than those I usually play against. I want to have their standard but I just can't no matter how hard I try. It's either I can't locate vital food sources or I lose a couple of them to the local fauna. Somehow I'm also too slow to reach my desired 26-villager-high before I Tool. *shrug*


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-21-04 01:01 PM ET (US)     126 / 263       
Duan Xuan:
In small numbers, stable units cause much more damage than CAs and deal better with any tool units that may be present. For the initial attack, it can be good to mix stable units and CAs to raise your damage average until the archer battles of mid-bronze.

In your first game, as assy, you should have CA rushed the roman. He has no archers, and you don't want him to iron. Then you can double-team his ally.

In your second game, as roman, you should have tower rushed the assyrian. He has no slingers, and you don't want him to bronze. Then you can double-team his ally.


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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-21-04 02:36 PM ET (US)     127 / 263       
Duan Xuan:

Don't get mad because you can't hang with Punic_Idle. He has been an expert at AOE/ROR for a while (I'm pretty sure he is Idle_Peon, from Israel). I think he has played for well over five years.

I have played Peon in dozens of 1v1's and his early micromanaging in Stone and Tool is excellent. You could learn a lot from watching how he plays.

Even Alexanderthe_OK has played for at least three-four years, even though he probably still isn't a great player.

I didn't recognize any of the other names, but I haven't played much on the Zone over the past year-year and a half. I would be willing to bet that all of those players had at least five times the experience as you do.

Just keep practicing, and don't get too frustrated if you get beat badly when you play with experienced players.

I would play 3v3's more than 2v2's especially if you are going to play with good players. Good players like Punic_Idle will just dominate 2v2's with less experienced players to the point it is little or no fun (unless you like losing). It makes little difference what Civ he has and who attacks who first (wedsaz hates to admit stuff like this).


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-21-04 07:55 PM ET (US)     128 / 263       
BlitzkreigComin:
Actually, I (mostly) agree with you in this case. Duan Xuan is still at a point where he has more to gain by learning from others than by exploring on his own.

Although experience is a major factor for victory, you have to remember the biggest factor of all... luck. Even experts have bad days. Let's say Punic_Idle gets forestberries, farwood, and a really bad itch just as his first scouting villie runs into a lion. If DX play right, he'll win that one.

When I lose, I dissect the game to find all the mistakes and lost opportunities. I only get frustrated when there's nothing to learn from it - bad spots, bad allies, that sort of thing.


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Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-22-04 04:37 AM ET (US)     129 / 263       
Wedsaz, I quite like stable units too, but I can't afford to have them if I want to go for an all-out CA rush. I don't really like to use cavalry because I have to mine for gold first. Maybe I'll use chariots, they're pretty good.

Blitz, I try to play more team games now (1v1 can get a little boring). So far I haven't played 3v3s before. Most such games I see open on the Zone are for inters or experts, and probably wouldn't welcome me. After those games the folks there would probably shun me in the future knowing that I'm a mere rookie.

I understand that I need to play with experienced players to learn more, and I do enjoy playing them a lot, even if it means losing badly. I don't really mind that, since I'm so used to losing already. A victory from time to time is a pleasant surprise for me. When I open games, I specify for "rooks and inters", hoping to get good rooks and inters to play with me.


D XUAN
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-22-04 06:59 AM ET (US)     130 / 263       
I lost a 3v3 game just now. More descriptions and screenshots later. I've got to go off to study soon. I also won 2 1v1s.

After reviewing my starting pattern, I realised that I can go to Bronze after Tooling almost without delay. That means I'm slow because of my Tool timing... Now, I can't figure out why I'm slow there. If I can get a 10min Tool I will definitely be able to Bronze in under 14min... Need to work out what went wrong.


D XUAN
Adamant Hoplite
Clubman
posted 04-22-04 12:48 PM ET (US)     131 / 263       
Yes - the ideal situation would be being able to hit Tool and build the two required buildings, and hitting 800 food then. Usually, however, I either don't quite have enough, or I have too much food - and maybe not enough wood.

Oh - and to mix in some Cavs, I would suggest moving two people to gold mining just before you hit the Bronze upgrade (that's my usual strategy). Where you take them from depends on which resource is the most abundant.


_,~`Adamant Hoplite`~,_ - The Imaginary and Fantastical Hellenic Sovereign King
380 Health, 52 Attack, 30 Hack Armour, 12 Pierce Armour, Very Fast Speed, Inconvertible, etc, etc, etc.
"The people of Hellas shall rise - Hellenes, sharpen your Kopis, raise your Dory, wield your proud Hoplon in gleaming sunlight - time has inevitably arrived to cast down the corrupted Imperials."
AoEH | Zeus Heaven | MEO | Hoplites | The Allerian Empire
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-22-04 01:23 PM ET (US)     132 / 263       
wedsaz:

Experience when it comes to expert vs. rookie is HUGE compared to bad maps and mishaps. You have to be good enough to realize and capitalize on an opponent's bad luck.

I remember back when I played 50+ hours a week a few years ago that I could win 1v3 and 1v4 versus rookies and it didn't matter what my starting position was like. I even remember a game where I did a 1v1 where the rules were I couldn't make one military unit for 30 minutes on Hills vs. a rookie friend (with watchers) and he could do whatever he wanted. He was Assy and they made me take Mace. He was very frustrated by 25 minutes and I won in under 35 minutes. I had the villager high the whole time.

Experience is the reason that you could never win any game in the past couple (maybe three) years whenever forumers would finally get you to play an online game. You and I could play a game with you having the perfect starting location and me having nothing and I wouldn't be worried at all.

Players that log several thousands of hours on this game (that is scary because it is no exaggeration), which most of the Zone regulars have, have developed instincts and habits to treat every situation. A novice can't simply log onto the Zone one day with a good strategy in mind and expect to do anything other than lose.

Beginning players need to practice their Stone Age and Tool Age micromanaging, and as they log several games they will start to develop a broad range of options as they encounter situations in gameplay.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-22-04 01:43 PM ET (US)     133 / 263       
Duan Xuan:
Yes, I mentioned chariots earlier. While cavs and camels are better, if you're going for CAs then chariots have the advantage of not needing gold.

What civ are you playing? Only shang and persian can bronze around 12 mins with a normal land spot.

How many villies are you making in stone? Try making a few less villies in stone. This will weaken your econ but should speed up your tool time.


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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-22-04 02:41 PM ET (US)     134 / 263       
BlitzkreigComin:
You only have to be good enough to do a standard rush, which is how I define an inter: one trick pony. If your opponent screws up badly enough, you'll kill him. Experts know more strategies so they can work with different situations, but sometimes there's just no way they can win against someone halfway competant.

I don't know how much of a rookie your friend was, but if he can't kill someone with no military under 30 minutes ... I think even the AI is better than that. And yet if the rule was that you couldn't have more than 3 villies, I'd be very surprised if he still managed to lose.

I played a total of two games with forumers, which is not much to go by, and won one of them. I lost the other due to truly horrible micro. If I'd had a week of "rehab" to get my mouse hand back in shape, it would have been more exciting.

Wine almost has AoE support for linux now. DirectX is deathly slow, but they're tracking down that bug as we speak. (Imagine how impatient you'd be if you hadn't played AoE all this time)

I logged a couple thousand hours myself back in the day. A newcomer needs a several hundred hours just to keep up with the pace of zone play. It's like tennis - the more you play, the slower the ball gets. A rookie won't beat an expert (unless he goes out for a smoke - I've seen it), but an inter with a good strategy can do it consistantly if the expert is thick enough (most are).


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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-22-04 03:12 PM ET (US)     135 / 263       
wedsaz:

I remember different occasions that you showed up to the Zone to play forumers. First was with Blackheart, Laggy-Hyper, and others that I can't remember at this time. That game was in the summer of 2000. I think you played twice. Did your team win a 3v3? I can't remember.....

I also remember a couple years ago that you showed up and played a couple games when I played. You took your Persian and I ran over you (and everybody else) with ease. I think we got at least two games in. I know you didn't win when I played.

I seriously doubt you played a thousand hours. I know you played when strategies were being invented in the pioneer days, but you haven't been a good player since I started playing in 1999. For that matter you haven't played this game competitively since what, 1998? Time flies when you are having fun.

As for my game with no military, he made the mistake of not showing up to my base until 18-19 minutes. I had walled, had multiple Town Centers, and was booming villagers like mad. He was able to break through my walls and chase and kill villagers. He had to work so hard micromanaging his small force of Chariot Archers, I had several Town Centers booming and continuing to grow all over the map. He stopped villager production around 25 and I had over 80 before 30 minutes. He couldn't micromanage military and economy at the same time while I was growing rapidly everywhere, even sustaining losses here and there. Oh the good ole days.......


As for fewer villagers in Stone, I would strongly disagree. You need 26 villagers at least to have a good Bronze time and early support for 2-3 archery ranges. Any fewer villagers and you might get a little better time, but not a strong enough military and it puts you at a slight disadvantage. Not good for beginning players.

I personally don't mine gold or build a Stable if I am a Chariot Archer civ because it is a waste of time and resources, but that is just me.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
Adamant Hoplite
Clubman
posted 04-22-04 05:36 PM ET (US)     136 / 263       
Blitz: At least 26? I always thought the ideal amount was around 21/22...? It seems to me that 26 villies might give a Tool time that's a tad bit too slow...? (I'm not that good a player, really, so it won't be surprising if I'm wrong. )

_,~`Adamant Hoplite`~,_ - The Imaginary and Fantastical Hellenic Sovereign King
380 Health, 52 Attack, 30 Hack Armour, 12 Pierce Armour, Very Fast Speed, Inconvertible, etc, etc, etc.
"The people of Hellas shall rise - Hellenes, sharpen your Kopis, raise your Dory, wield your proud Hoplon in gleaming sunlight - time has inevitably arrived to cast down the corrupted Imperials."
AoEH | Zeus Heaven | MEO | Hoplites | The Allerian Empire
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-22-04 06:50 PM ET (US)     137 / 263       
Adamant Hoplite:

For a solid Bronze Age economy you need around 26-27 villagers in the Stone Age. This allows you to immediately start booming from at least three archery ranges in the Bronze Age. If someone does a 23-24 villager Stone Age, they will be able to have an army quicker, but they can't maintain booming from 3-4 military buildings.

The advantage will be to the person with 26-27 villagers in less than two minutes. This is simply because he will be making at least 50% less army every 40 seconds, which four minutes into Bronze can be fatal. That is a small window to capitalize in.

Having said that, this is why sucessful Tool Rushers go with a 20 villager Stone Age start. 22-23 villagers give up a minute more of precious time, but a 20 villager start gives you a nice jump because you should be starting to attack before an opponent arrives at the Tool Age. However, having enough food to hit the Tool upgrade immediately upon having your 20th villager born takes some skill, and is risky. If you are slow, you usually die an embarrassing death.

So against good players, 22-23 villagers is too mediocre. Not fast enough for a sucessful rush, yet not strong enough to sustain an early Bronze army from at least three buildings.

The mastery comes in learning how to get 26-27 villagers and foil a rusher's plans consistantly, so you can kill him easily in Bronze because of his weak economy and obsolete army.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-22-04 07:45 PM ET (US)     138 / 263       
BlitzkreigComin:
None of those names ring a bell. Maybe you're thinking of someone else?

Yeah, persian... I remember that one now, there was something like 20 gazelles near my starting spot. I should have only hunted two and switched to woodcutting, then my boats would have ramped up in time for as quick bronze. Needless to say, I was squished like a bug in that one.

For the first two years or so I played an average of like, 20 hours a week or something. I was far from being the best, but some of them weren't as good as their reputation would suggest.

You had him running around for 12 mins? Ha! That's cruel man.

I agree, no gold for CA rushes. Chariots don't need gold however, so one stable might be worth it for a much stronger initial attack without having to wait for critical mass of CAs (10+).

assuming no movement, ...
4 CAs kill 22 villies in 1 minute
3 CAs and 1 chariot kill 30 villies
2 CAs and 2 chariots kill 37 villies
1 CA and 3 chariots kill 46 villies
4 chariots kill no villies (can't find 'em)

Adamant Hoplite:
I agree with both you and Blitz, and here's how. You're not saying the same thing.

Ideal for bronze time is around 21-22 villies. You'll reach bronze faster with enough for a first wave of CAs, but you're in trouble if it fails.

Ideal for continuous fighting is around 26 villies. You'll have a slower bronze, but with enough resources coming in to keep 2-3 archeries producing non-stop so you can keep fighting.

See the difference? The extra 4-5 villies slow you down, but give you more lasting power. Often you can't kill someone off in your first attack no matter how early you bronze. If he walled (in tool), you may need to keep up the CA fight while you get yourself some STs. That's where Blitz would win and you would lose.


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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-22-04 08:00 PM ET (US)     139 / 263       
wedsaz:

If anybody is bored here I'm sure the threads are still here about your game in 2000. The thread would have been started by Blackheart or Hyper. You died miserably, although we were a little suprised that you weren't "as bad as we all thought you would be".

I might even have an old website around with screenshots. I'll have to look.

The good ole days were sure fun.........


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-22-04 08:02 PM ET (US)     140 / 263       
Gah! I'm slow today. What Blitz said, except for a few details concerning tool.

You don't need to have enough food to tool right after you make your last villager. It's not optimal, but if you're doing something your opponent isn't ready for, a few seconds delay won't matter.

24 villies = 10 mins
20 villies = 9 mins
16 villies = 8 mins
12 villies = 7 mins

Any less than 12, and you start getting slower again. Of course, you can't do much with 12 villies. Usually.


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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-22-04 08:23 PM ET (US)     141 / 263       
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 04-23-04 03:36 AM ET (US)     142 / 263       
Lol. Yea, some people just can't see when they have been defeated.

I thought I was addicted with 2 hours a day at most. Hell, some people turned it into a job.

RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-23-04 04:07 AM ET (US)     143 / 263       
Hah. I did quite a few of those 7:xx tools back in the day with 12-14 vills in the day. Only really feasible on continental (when you have like 4 or 5 sf right next to your tc), go to tool with a barracks and a storage pit (for upgrades) and start making clubmen (one or two is enough) during the transition. Shang is best of course, but I did it with other civs (with that many sf, or if you're Persia and have 3 elephants or something). Also, you can do it in AoE, but it's kinda useless because of the fast yassy vills.

Definitely a bad idea unless you have a *perfect* map, though.

[This message has been edited by RomanGladius (edited 04-23-2004 @ 04:53 AM).]

Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-23-04 10:29 AM ET (US)     144 / 263       
Hmmm, some heated argument we have in here... On the issue of the number of villies to have in Stone age, I don't really know about having a fast Tool with less than 20 villies. I've never tried doing so with so few villies. With a 26-villie Stone age (which I am doing all the time) I still find that my economy isn't that fantastic, but it's quite ok for my current level... I get a consistent (and bad) 16-min Bronze (nowadays starting to get 15:30 ones) with this starting strategy and my economy's usually pretty solid when I am able to make it last till mid-Bronze.

Anyway, here's the 3v3 I had yesterday... terrible defeat: http://www.xeenslayer.netfirms.com/AoE/aoerorzonescreenshots2.html#ZoneRMHill-9-ally

It was a high-resource game, that's why the age timings were so early. Of all the players, WWII was the best. I've played against him in a 2v2 before, which I remember talking about in one of my previous posts. I don't know, but I seriously think that out of the 3 players in my team, I'm the best?... I saw the way they started off (super small econ) and I knew that my team was going to lose. WWII Bronzed before me and he was the closest opponent to me too. I suppose I had plain bad luck. I was pumping out CAs and chariots just as he was, but he was probably a minute faster than I was. We were at even in the initial conflict until he overwhelmed me with more CAs and STs. The latter forced me to retreat my units and then he gained the advantage. *sigh*

After that I fought a losing battle and I had to evacuate my villies to my partner in the center. Since I took on the brunt of the early fighting with WWII, my economy was completely smashed and I had no military at all. I started mining for gold and farming for food at my ally's base to get more military units, but it wasn't of much use. Red came again and both of us ran to our last partner. Sort of reminds you of the story of the three little pigs, right? Soon after both of them resigned and I followed suit. That wasn't the least fun... I only enjoyed the initial fighting with WWII until he started demolishing my base.

I must admit I get myself confused when playing high resource games. I don't quite know when to Tool and how many villies to have, so I just follow my normal strat. I guess I perform better in default games.


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-23-04 12:30 PM ET (US)     145 / 263       
BlitzkreigComin:
Wow, I really didn't remember all of that.

But I still didn't lose *all* of them.

When I get back on, I really should learn scouting.

peter:
The word you're looking for is 'obsession'.

RomanGladius:
You can tool in 7 off a single berry patch, so long as you stop at 12 villies. Just don't expect to do much with it.

Duan Xuan:
Bronzing takes a lot of food you know. Below 20 vills your bronze time would start to get slower due to missing resources. The only reason you'd go for a faster tool than 9 mins is if you're doing some kind of tool rush, in which case the slower bronze time won't matter as much.

12 vills = optimal tool time
20 vills = optimal bronze time
60 vills? = optimal iron time

Looking at the timeline, I'd say you lost to a good team. It looks like FreeSpirit tooled early, then was late to bronze but ironed first - I'm guessing he sent tribute to his allies in tool. Both his allies boomed (until they received trib?), then bronzed immediately after they tooled - before anyone else.

Meanwhile you were partnered with two rookies, one who brought hittite priests to a bronze fight and the other who tooled too early to have an econ and apparently didn't do anything with it. He could at least have scout rushed.

Even if you had bronzed faster you still would have lost. You couldn't win this one without good allies, so don't beat yourself up over it.


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Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-23-04 12:35 PM ET (US)     146 / 263       
Ok, here're two more games I had just now on the Zone.

First game was a 3v3 with a group of good rooks (I didn't tell them that I was an average rook ). We won, but not really by skill. First, one of the opponents resigned (for connection reasons I suppose). Then a second player from their side disconnected too. In the end when the game was only into the 18th minute, brown resigned after realising that his scout rush plan had failed miserably (even against me )... All he could do was pump out a few scouts and throw them at all 3 of us. I killed a couple of his scouts and that was all he had for me. Nothing much for this game, quite boring, in fact.

Second game was terrible. I really thought that victory was mine... It was a random civ game and I got Persian (never used them before). I know that they have bonus for hunting but that was about all I know about this civ. Indeed, because I went for hunting, I was able to achieve age timings that I've never achieved before. I got a 10+ min Tool-time and a 14+m min Bronze. I should have been faster for Bronze because I forgot to build my stable... The problem came when I hit Bronze. What was I going to use against my opponent? I had absolutely no idea and Persia isn't a CA civ (no wheel). I decided to go for cav since I'd already built a stable. The initial attacks were pretty successful I'd say. I attacked with a scout and 2 cavalry and managed to kill off a handful of villies. But he was beginning to have CAs. I never managed to get into the heart of his base. All the while I was only attacking his forward bases. In the end after dilly-dallying with the cavalry rush (now becoming less and less advantageous for me) my opponent had lots of CAs and my cav were becoming dead meat. After half an hour of game time, I decided to resign because my econ was really small (concentrated so much about attack I neglected my econ) and my cav were being murdered by CAs. This is just stupid, I know. I should've won this game, but then, that's the problem with random civ. I really have no idea what Bronze units to use for Persia?... Could somebody enlighten me on this civ so that I can make use of it in the future? I really love the fast and steady age timings it gives me.


D XUAN
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-23-04 12:43 PM ET (US)     147 / 263       
Wedsaz,

no, FreeSpirit isn't a good player. The reason why he could get to Iron so soon was because he was so safe throughout the whole game, having two strong allies. I've played at least 3 1v1 games against him and won every single one. Good beatings they were too. He's the type who starts off with a tiny econ that practically doesn't exist, then starts booming later on. He can only thrive if he is free from attacks early in the game... makes him vulnerable when I reach Bronze, my favourite attacking time.

Well, I must admit my partners weren't good... Bladed Timmy probably isn't even a good RM player, I guess. He was requesting for Iron age start all the time that the others told him to play DM. Afterwards he invited me to a DM game and said that it was "more fun that what you play". I disagreed with him because personally, I don't like DM. Yeah, he was more of a DM than RM player.


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-23-04 01:46 PM ET (US)     148 / 263       
Duan Xuan:
I suspected FreeSpirit tribbing because of how fast the other two players bronzed, but if he's like that in 1v1... I guess it was just the high res start. The score board would have confirmed it.

Persia? Before iron, persia's main strength is the speed boost from their hunting bonus. Their greatest weakness is the lack of artisanship, which means less wood in mid-bronze and less range for their compies. Wheel doesn't matter much for a non-CA civ if you pit often, which you should anyway.

If you want to tool rush, they're one of the best civs for it (along with roman, yammy and shang). You can tool fast and *still* have a lot of food for military.

Your biggest advantage throughout the game is being first to every age, unit and tech. In bronze, play them like a faster yammy.

1. Start with cavs, two stables is enough, switch to camels if your opponent does.
2. Keep booming! Once in bronze, use TCs instead of pits and granaries. Gather all the food, mine all the gold, and farm aplenty. Persia isn't a gold civ, it's a food civ.
3. Be ready to switch to compies once CAs come out in force. Have the techs researched, and at least 4 archeries built.

4. This one is probably controversial, but if the game goes into overtime (18+)... iron first.

In early iron you have many good units.
o HAs are great for raiding, and take only half damage from CAs.
o Massed ele archers kill any archer and even helos.
o On water maps, triremes and juggernauts.
o Cats are good vs compies and siege units.
o AEs are cheap on gold and take down any fortifications.
o 3rd best legions (after choson and roman). Cheap yet effective, good for those really long games.


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RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-23-04 08:00 PM ET (US)     149 / 263       
Persia is an okay civ on hills--but if you have no hunting, you're screwed.

Persia on hills is good for two things:
a) tool rush -- use scouts if you can't find him
b) fast bronze -- cav or camel rush

If you don't do a or b, you lose. Every time. Persia's econ is that bad. (Okay, maybe they beat Greek in bronze...make compies)

If you get stuck in mid-bronze with Persia, you can go with composites. After a very short while CAs just own stable units (dance your CAs). But don't let it get to mid-bronze. Don't tell me I didn't warn you.

If you get to Iron first (you won't, at least not with Persia) build horse archers. Horse archers are the best unit in early Iron. They kill villies in four volleys--twice as good as a chariot archer. They also eat CAs and compies for breakfast. Also, they don't take gazillion food to make like elephants. Don't dream about making a shitload of elephants of elephant archers with Persia, because you won't be able to unless your opponent was stupid and didn't raid your farmers. Legions are a cool unit but only cool once you get all the upgrades (4 swordsmen upgrades, fanaticism, 6 blacksmith upgrades + any shields...) your opponent will have won anyway.

AEs are cool, but you won't have the econ to make them (it takes like 2000 food and 1000 gold for just the upgrade) and people will just hoyohoyo them with priests.

[This message has been edited by RomanGladius (edited 04-23-2004 @ 08:03 PM).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-24-04 03:57 AM ET (US)     150 / 263       
Right, persia is a fast civ but you have to use it. They can't hang around like hittite can, so don't try.

Their econ isn't that bad though. The missing wood upgrade hurts a lot from mid-bronze onwards, but you won't need wood or the wheel for CAs. The only place where it really matters is in sea battles, but there aren't many of those on hills.

The key to persia's econ in bronze, as I said earlier, is to TC boom. Since you can get there faster than any other civ, you can start booming earlier and have the most villies. That will have more effect than any market techs after tool age.

Persia can iron in 18 mins on water maps. All you need 300 meat near a forest, and a ocean to fish. They're probably much slower on hills, but so is everyone else.

HAs are the best for iron raiding but they can eat through your gold supply in no time. Keep an eye on it, and make sure you have something else to switch to before it runs out.

Priests get killed real quick by all those CAs running around. Don't worry about them.

Good point about the AE upgrade. I forgot how expensive it was, thanks for pointing that out. It might be worth it for persia though, with the speed bonus it's like having super scythes that shred walls like they're not even there, and can catch fleeing villies. It does take alot of food to pull off, but maybe after HAs you can afford it.

EAs are worth making, even in small numbers. They're incredibly cost-effective at killing helos, HAs, or any archers really. Super compies.

Legions don't need the pit upgrades to be useful. 160hps is a lot, and at that price you can have them march to your opponent's catapults or into his town without caring about a few casualties. Once you get the pit upgrades, well they're all the more deadly.


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