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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » News Discussions » Suggestion for a fan-made mod: Fictional races in AoE?
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Topic Subject:Suggestion for a fan-made mod: Fictional races in AoE?
Draco_Wolfgand
Clubman
posted 05-11-17 06:45 PM ET (US)         
Yeah, I am probably not the first one to suggest this. But I still think it would be nice to at least share my take on it. I will focus, for now, on the Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs. I may share some ideas later, if they come up.

Orcs:

Civilization bonuses:

-Swordsman-line units cost no gold, and deal double damage to buildings.

-Elephant Archers fire 50% faster

-Siege weapons and Buildings are 25% cheaper, but have 25% less HP

Technologies:

They would have all the Barracks units, and Archery Range units, but they lack Ballistics. They would, however, lack the Centurion and even Phalanx upgrades, Aristocracy, the Cataphract, Nobility, Archietecture, the Chain Mail armor upgrades( But they still get all the shield upgrades ), both Medium Wall and Sentry Tower( And thus, logically, the next upgrades on the line ), amongst others. In the Temple, they get everything except Medicine and Monotheism. In the Docks, they would lack the Juggernaut, the Trireme, and Catapult Trireme. They also get all siege weapons. They get all Market technologies except Plow and Coinage

The overral point of it: In general, they would be the masters of "quantity over quality": They would lack many "expensive but powerfull" units, other then their Elephants, but would make up for it with their sheer ability to keep up a offensive pressure. Though they would be great at attacking, they would be not-so-great at defending, though. Think of then like a AoE version of the Goths XD.
Elves

Civilization Bonuses:

Foot archers move 25% faster
Buildings cost 30% less wood.

Technologies:

Has all units avaliable from the Academy, and Archery Range. Has all units from the Stables avaliable except for elephants and Cataphracts. Has all units from the Barracks avaliable except for Legion. Lacks Ballista Tower, Heavy Catapult and Heliopis. Also lacks Siegecraft, though all other technologies from the Market are avaliable. Has all Storage Pit technologies except for Tower Shield, Iron Shield, and Chain Mail for Infantry and Cavalry, as well as Metallurgy. Gets all Temple technologies except Fanaticism and Jihad

Overral point: You know, I originally wanted then to be a "high mobility" kind of civilization, with fast but frail units... But I feel I left then too underpowered.

Dwarves.

Civilization Bonuses:

Storage Pit upgrades cost 33% less.
Infantry units have +1 meele and +2 pierce armor.
Phalanx and Long Swordsman both have double HP.
All buildings and siege weapons have +25% HP.
Villagers cost gold instead of food and gather gold and stone 30% faster, but gather food and wood 15% more slowly.

Technologies:
Gets all Storage Pit upgrades. Gets all Barracks units except Legion, and all Academy units except Centurion. Gets elephant and chariot units, but no other units from the Stable. Lacks Cavalry Archer and Improved Bowman. Gets all Market upgrades except Craftsmanship. Gets all siege weapons. Gets all technologies from the Government Center except Aristocracty. Gets all technologies from the Temple except Fanaticism and Mysticism

General point of it: This civilization would be slow in every possible meaning of the word. Its economy would be suppose to be the opposite of the Persians: Incredibly slow early on because of its gimmicky Villagers, but eventually catching up to other civilizations when gold would become more important. Its army composition would also be generally incredibly, well, slow. Their main focus, is on bulk. Their infantry units would be suppose to be by far the most durable in the game( In fact, they lack Centurion and Legion to balance up the "Double Hit points" aspect ), and though the rest of their army would be lackluster, elephants are never a bad thing to have. Since we are in such a "Lord of the Rings" topic, I do wonder as for where would the Men of the West fit in...

[This message has been edited by Draco_Wolfgand (edited 05-11-2017 @ 06:46 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Epd999
Scout
posted 05-11-17 11:47 PM ET (US)     1 / 9       
Great to see someone else making plans to mod such a great game

You have some interesting themes and takes on the races. I like how the Dwarves mine faster but gather everything else slower. Are these as well as all the "human" civilisations already in the game or separate, because if they are an addition and not remakes I would suggest not having such drastic bonuses in order to have the new civilisations balanced.

Are you planning on doing this as a public mod, private mod or is it just speculation at this point?

Lost Empires Mod
Maybe it's only a fool who'll perilously journey out to what might not be there. But if you want to solve problems, you don't just solve the ones that are there, you find more and make more and go after the impossible ones.
The neanderthals never ventured into the unknown and they went extinct, so who are the fools?

[This message has been edited by Epd999 (edited 05-11-2017 @ 11:48 PM).]

Draco_Wolfgand
Clubman
posted 05-12-17 09:10 PM ET (US)     2 / 9       
So far, it is purely especulation, even because, to be honest, I wouldnt have the programming skills to actually pull it off XD. Still, I thought I could find someone who could help me with that, or just have some fun talking about it.

Out of curiosity, if they were to be implemented in the game at all, what nerfs would you suggest? Originally, I considered taking away several Market technologies from the Orc, such as "Plow", "Coinage", "Craftsmanship", and by logical extention "Irrigation", but then I went "Nah, if their point is to create lots of infantry really fast, they kind of need a good economy."
Epd999
Scout
posted 05-13-17 04:15 PM ET (US)     3 / 9       
Orcs
Swordsman-line units cost no gold or Swordsman do +4, +6, +8, +10 damage to buildings each age.
Elephant Archers fire 30% faster
Siege weapons are 25% cheaper


Having all infantry would work really well for the orcs but there is not a civilisation in Age of Empires: Rise of Rome with all archer upgrades, having access to all archery units gives a huge advantage but saying that lacking ballistics is a huge disadvantage, so it could work. Whether they have Centurions and Phalanx or not doesn't effect the game much and neither does the Cataphract upgrade because it's not worth the cost I do think as the Orcs are infantry based they could lack more stable units than Cataphracts, like lacking the Cavalry line and the Scythed Chariot. Having a lack of Architecture and Nobility doesn't effect the game much but having all market upgrades does. If I were remove an iron age tech it would be Coinage, because they're not as gold dependent and are orcs, what currency would orcs have? I would probably remove the two final upgrades of siege and then remove but leave Siegecraft and Craftsmanship, instead of having siege have less HP. Not having Plow makes sense.

Elves

Foot archers move 25% faster
Buildings cost 20% less wood.


Having full Academy works. I would remove Chariot Archers. I would move them Cataphracts and remove Camels. Not having Legion works. No civilisation in age of empires 1 has access to only one, or two chain mail tech. It's all or none. Towers and Walls are the only buildings that don't cost wood. I agree mostly with everything else.

Dwarves.
Infantry units have +1 Pierce Armor per age.
Siege Workshop works 20% faster.
Villagers gather gold and stone 30% faster but gather food and wood 15% more slowly.


Technology for Dwarves is open to interpretation. There small and have equal strength to humans after height is included. I would think they would have weak mounted units, average archery range and agree with the market techs you've removed (I would probably remove Irrigation). All storage pit upgrades. But you can't have Helepolis without Craftsmanship. Making Dwarves cost gold, would make them a really bad civilisation as they would be too dependent on gold. It could work but and would need to be heavily tested.

Lost Empires Mod
Maybe it's only a fool who'll perilously journey out to what might not be there. But if you want to solve problems, you don't just solve the ones that are there, you find more and make more and go after the impossible ones.
The neanderthals never ventured into the unknown and they went extinct, so who are the fools?

[This message has been edited by Epd999 (edited 05-13-2017 @ 04:18 PM).]

Draco_Wolfgand
Clubman
posted 05-13-17 04:31 PM ET (US)     4 / 9       
Hmmmm, I kind of forgot that about Helepolis for a moment. But they might actually be more balanced without it: No civilization in Age of Empires has bonuses for the Heliopolis Oh, well. Originally, the double HP for Phalanx and Long Swordsman( And, may I emphatise, none of its previous forms ) was suppose to balance out the lack of the two final upgrades. The point was suppose to be, for then to have really good, or at least really durable infantry, but for the rest of their army to be mediocre( Thus the lack of Improved Bowman and Cavalry Archers, meaning their "best" archers would be Chariot archers ). If this was to be removed, something else would probably have to be added on its place, maybe the Improved and Composite Bowman, and/or one of the two final infantry upgrades, though I am not sure which would fit better. They definitively shouldnt have Horse Archers, though. Considering their biggest weakness is suppose to be both their slow economy and their slow-moving army, having the fastest unit in the game... Yeah, they shouldnt get it XD.

I also still feel the bulkier buildings could still be usefull, to represent the dwarves famous architecture skills, as well as the fact they would need something to make up for their slow early-game economy. Arguably, having more heavily-armored infantry could make up for that by itself( That is why the boost says "infantry", to clarify that it would affect even Clubmen and Axemen ): Their early-game army would basically lack quantity but have more quality. Still, just saiyng.

Also, as previously mentioned, I do want the Orcs to be absolutely mediocre where it comes to defenses, so they would probably still have to continue lacking Architecture, but I would be fine with removing the building-related bonuses and penalties in exchange of taking out the previously mentioned market technologies. With the rest, I agree.

I am still pondering, if we are to continue in a Lord of the Rings theme, how about the "Men of the West". Considering both the orcs and dwarves are infantry-based and the elves are mostly archery-based, the Men of the West could be cavalry-based( It would make sense, considering they were inspired on, well, Medieval Europe, where cavalry was heavily used. I know the theme is a bit anachronistic, but I think that in the moment we decide to make a mod involving elves, we can assume that this mod just wont be 100% historically accurate either way ). They would probably lack elephants and camels, but get some bonus for the main Cavalry-line to make up for it... Other then that, I got nothing.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 05-14-17 06:15 AM ET (US)     5 / 9       
Have you seen the AoE LOTR project http://aoe.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/aoecgi/display.cgi?action=ct&f=17,6455,25,1000

I think it has been dormant for a while now, tho.
Draco_Wolfgand
Clubman
posted 05-15-17 00:10 AM ET (US)     6 / 9       
Oh, that is neat. I never really thought about designing new units from scratch for this( Though, Orc Elephant Archers firing faster is, obviously, meant as a referrence to the Oliphants. ). Hmmmm, their version of Gondor does seems a bit like the Byzantines... In fact, Gondor itself was inspired by the Byzantine Empire... That makes me wonder...

Gondor.

Civilization Bonuses: Town Centers and Walls have double HP.

Cavalry-line ( Cavalry, Heavy Cavalry and the Cataphract ) have 40% more HP, but 20% less speed.

The "Cataphract" upgrade costs 50% less

Cataphracts deal trample damage and deal +10 damage to Academy units.

Tech tree: They get every unit from the Barracks and Academy. They lack elephants and Scythe Chariot, but get every other unit from the Stables. They get every non-Elephant unit from the Archery Range. They get every Market technology except Siegecraft and Craftsmanship, and every Storage Pit technology except Tower Shield, and Iron Shield. They get every Government Center technology except Nobility and Alchemy. They get every Granary and Temple technology. They lack all siege units except Stone Throwers and Ballistas.

The general point of it: The Cataphract upgrade is not very often used since it is extremely expensive for what it actually does. I decided to try to make a civilization that would change things up a bit: Encourage, and even depend a bit, on the Cataphract upgrade. This version of the Cataphract would be, obviously, intended to be more like its AoK reiteration: A anti-infantry cavalry unit. Unlike its other version, it would have enough sheer bulk to take on most other cavalry units as well. It would still not be as good as regular cavalry at dealing with archers, though. A Bronze Age Cavalry rush could also be viable, as Cavalry is already a somewhat powerfull unit for rushes due to how easily it takes out the Tool Age units, but it would be on the Iron Age that the Gondorian cavalry would truly reach its apex.

However, the civilization would have weaknesses. The main one being, it has very few ways to deal with ranged units. Its siege is mediocre: Its Cataphracts would be a bit too slow to deal with Horse Archers and their hit-and-run antics, and their Chariots would just lack the power for it on the Iron Age. Their own Archery Range would be a bit lacking due to the lack of both Alchemy and Craftsmanship, not to mention Nobility for the horse archers. On top of that, the lack of Nobility would mean their non-Cataphract line cavalry would be quite... Weak, to say the least. This might make then a bit of a... One trick pony. They are also one of the civilizations that can only truly switch into the offensive from the Bronze Age onwards, though their superior defenses help before that point

Extra notes: I am actually not sure whether this is the best idea to represent Gondor, though, since Gondor itself actually very rarely used cavalry, unlike the Byzantines they were based upon. Still, I though it was a concept that deserved being considered, giving new uses to a usually forgotten unit or upgrade... I do wonder whether I should take out a few more technologies or upgrades of their list, but I wonder which...

EDIT: So, I forgot the "tiny" detail you cant actually get Cataphracts without Metallurgy, and as such added Metallurgy to their tech tree. Well, that was embarassing.

[This message has been edited by Draco_Wolfgand (edited 05-23-2017 @ 11:18 PM).]

Highwing
Clubman
posted 05-15-17 02:13 AM ET (US)     7 / 9       
I think those cavalry bonuses would be more appropriate for Rohan.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 05-21-17 10:13 AM ET (US)     8 / 9       
That depends, Highwind. In the books Gondor cavalry was held in high regard. In the movies of course it's a whole different story.

I imagine Rohan cavalry like the hungarians' or the cossacks, while I imagine Gondor's like France's in the 15th century.

[This message has been edited by Suppiluliuma (edited 05-21-2017 @ 10:14 AM).]

sonictimm
Clubman
posted 06-20-17 08:25 AM ET (US)     9 / 9       
Sorry for the bump, but color me interested.

Sounds like a fun idea, I'd be willing to help.

Making new sprites is a pain, but I'm totally down for data editing.

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