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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » The Hall of Fame » the woodworking effect - could the boom be wrong?
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Topic Subject:the woodworking effect - could the boom be wrong?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-12-00 04:52 AM ET (US)         

I recently discovered something pretty major about RoR, concerning the effects of woodworking... If some of you disagree, I urge you to verify the math before you start a-flamin'.

wood gathering rate w/o woodworking: 0.56w/sec
wood gathering rate with woodworking: 0.76w/sec

T = upgrading to tool, no new villies for 2 mins
W = wood chopped

Note:
This table assumes that all villies are on wood,
with 1 minute delay before new villies start chopping.
Villies on berries before tool wouldn't affect
the wood improvement so long since they're an equal
number for all villie totals, just so long as
they're all on wood at tool time.

approximate table of wood gathered

villies before tooling
min 12 18 24 30 36
1 100 100 100 100 100
2 300 300 300 300 300
3 600 600 600 600 600
4 1000T 1000 1000 1000 1000
5 1400T 1500 1500 1500 1500
6 1800 2100T 2100 2100 2100
7 2300W 2700T 2800 2800 2800
8 3116 3300 3600T 3600 3600
9 4068 4000W 4400T 4500 4500
10 5156 5088 5200 5500T 5500
11 6300 6232 6100W 6500T 6600
12 7660 7592 7460 7500 7800T
13 9156 9088 8956 8600W 9000T
14 10788 10720 10588 10232 10200
------- ------- ------- ------- ------- -------
15 12556 12488 12356 12000 11500W

Notes:
1. All arrive at 15 mins with 42 villies, thus only the wood chopped (and tool times) vary.
2. Woodcutting rates, villie training times and tool research time gathered from http://www.mrfixitonline.com/.

Could this mean that a faster tool makes for a stronger economy, not a weaker one?


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AuthorReplies:
Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 12-12-00 05:29 PM ET (US)     1 / 49       
Man...I must be an idiot. I didn't understand any of that. You got a "Cliff Notes" version of that there chart thingy? I be much obliged mister.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-12-00 06:37 PM ET (US)     2 / 49       
Hmm, this forum thing didn't do the spacing right. It makes a lot more sense in notepad - want me to email it to you?
Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 12-12-00 10:34 PM ET (US)     3 / 49       
wedsaz:

That would be great.

sumlep@cs.com

Thanks...

ManBehindTheCurtain
Clubman
posted 12-12-00 11:03 PM ET (US)     4 / 49       
Excellent. THIS is the kind of stuff we need here.

Could you maybe edit the post and try to get the spacing a little more coherent. But it looks to me like you are saying that very early tool with 12 villagers, followed by immediate research of Woodworking, allows you to reach 15 minutes with more wood than someone who just builds towards the current norm of a maximum villager late tool.

Have you factored in Market build time and Woodworking research time?

And could you give us a little more text on your conclusions and possibly point out some examples of what the table means? Explain, explain, explain.

Very, very interesting but please try to do something about that spacing. We can't absorb the meaning until we can understand the table.


Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-12-00 11:37 PM ET (US)     5 / 49       
Sumerian_Leper:
I sent the chart, check your email.
 
ManBehindTheCurtain:
1. I did mention that they all arrive at 15 mins with the same villie count, didn't I? In other words, train the same amount of villies but train them in tool instead.
2. I factored the tool upgrade and woodworking upgrade times. I didn't factor in market build time, but looking at the power of the woodworking upgrade I think I'd put 4-5 villies on it!
 
Hmm, interesting. A slower tool gives you a bit more woodcutting capacity while the faster tooler is advancing, so you can get a few more FBs out and more food in the long run. On the other hand, you'd lose them pretty fast in the sea wars since you'd have even less wood for scout ships...
 
It had all the spaces it needed when I put it in. I can't do much to help it, I looked for an equivalent to the "pre" html tag but found none. It shouldn't be too hard to put in the spaces so the columns line up properly, there's no secret pyramids or anything. So long as you have 6 columns (preferably right-aligned), you've got it right.
 
My main conclusion from all this an 11 min tool is ridiculous. Tool as soon as you can do so without delays, and train the remainder of your villies in tool. Something similar may apply to bronze, but scout ships and tool military make it more complicated.

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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 12-13-00 01:28 PM ET (US)     6 / 49       
wedsaz:

Great Thread!

Here is my analysis. To get accurate numbers I did a few things. First is to find the True Gathering Rate of wood. The True Gathering Rate takes three things into account.

1) The rate at which the villager gathers the resource.
2) The distance villager must walk to and from gathering point each trip.
3) The amount he can carry each trip.
4) The degree to which other vills are getting in his way.

I put 12 woodies on a forest. Obviously there would be less crowding if fewer than 12, but 12 is usually what I see in games and what I have until I get another pit going. I only counted resources that were in the stock pile at the end of the time trial. I did 10 10:00 tests for an accurate number.

Here are my results .....

A "slow civ" has a True Gathering Rate of wood of 0.345 wood/second in Stone Age.

Upon Tool Woodcutting upgrade the rate becomes 0.435. This is over 25% increase.

So we want to find out how much wood “x” vills will gather in a period of time. The formula is [x*r*t] where (x) is the number of vills, (r) is the gathering rate, and (t) is the time in seconds. To calculate how much wood 20 vills will gather in 3:00 (which is 180 seconds) in the Stone Age, I calculate [20*.345*180]=1242 wood. In Tool Age that would be [20*.435*180]=1566. That is right around 25-26%

BTW my tests also showed Phoenician as 0.39 in Stone and Palmy as 0.423. I didn't test Assy/Yams.


wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-13-00 01:45 PM ET (US)     7 / 49       
BlitzkreigComin:
What was the distance to your pit? What are the effects of building two pits and putting 6 at each, is it worth the 120w?
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 12-13-00 02:15 PM ET (US)     8 / 49       
Just another lil analysis.....

Minoan and Phoenician are playing on a Medit Map and both have 11 woodies at the 5:00 mark (assuming berry start and no villa lag). For this analysis we will say woodies remain constant and they will chop wood for 5:00.

In the 5:00 time period Phoenician will collect [11*.39*300]=1287 wood.

Minoan will have gathered [11*.345*300]=1138 wood.

Lets say they both do 3 docks.
Phoen=1287-300= 987 wood
Minoan=1138-300= 838 wood

In that 5:00 period they will need housing for a boom pop of 44. We will assume that housing was taken care of for the first 16 vills before the 5:00 mark. This will require 7 houses = 210 wood.

Phoen=987-210=777
Mino=838-210=628

Phoenician could get how many fbs? 777/50= 15.5
Minoan will get 628/34= 18.5
Note: Any "typical slow civ" would get 628/50= 12.5

For Zone players these numbers should seem realistic. Keep in mind we will add to the woodies after the 5:00.

To keep the analysis going...... lets assume both civs stopped vills at 9:00, each getting 30 real vills TTL. The berries are finished, a second pit is built, and have 28 woodies (14 at each pile) and 2 remaining villies are dock/forward builders.

By the time second pit is up and all vills are at working sites it is 9:30 and Tool buttons have just been hit. Wood is exhausted (for this analysis to be easy).

For the 2:00 researching Tool Age:
Phoen will collect [28*.396*120]= 1330 wood
Mino will collect [28*.345*120]= 1159 wood

Phoen will get [1330/135] = 9.8 Scout Ships
Mino will get [1159/94] = 12.3 Scout Ships
Slow civ (Hittite) would get [1159/135] = 8.5

Once again keep in mind we will need some of this wood for a rax, more houses, and two Tool Age buildings... but for this analysis it shows how an early navy war could go.

CoMBaT Villager
Clubman
posted 12-13-00 02:17 PM ET (US)     9 / 49       
------------villies before tooling
min--------12------18------24------30------36
1--------100-----100-----100-----100-----100
2--------300-----300-----300-----300-----300
3--------600-----600-----600-----600-----600
4-------1000T---1000----1000----1000----1000
5-------1400T---1500----1500----1500----1500
6-------1800----2100T---2100----2100----2100
7-------2300W---2700T---2800----2800----2800
8-------3116----3300----3600T---3600----3600
9-------4068----4000W---4400T---4500----4500
10-------5156----5088----5200----5500T---5500
11-------6300----6232----6100W---6500T---6600
12-------7660----7592----7460----7500----7800T
13-------9156----9088----8956----8600W---9000T
14------10788---10720---10588---10232----10200
------- ------- ------- ------- ------- -------
15------12556---12488---12356---12000----11500W

Thats the best i could do. I hope it helps. This forum doesnt let you double space.
Arg its still messed up!!!

[This message has been edited by CoMBaT Villager (edited 12-13-2000).]

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 12-13-00 02:43 PM ET (US)     10 / 49       
wedsaz:

The pit placement was a typical placement as close to the forest as possible and it allowed 6 vills to chop on each side. To check these numbers just build a scenerio with pit already in place, have 12 woodies standing there ready to get busy. Start the test and see how much the 12 can collect in 10:00. Take that number divide by 12 and then divide by 600 to find the gathering rate. I have done the test over a dozen times on same maps... different maps and it always is .344-.345 I worked on these numbers a lot several months ago and then again in the last day and they seem to be constant.

Anyways here is the long version of my answer about the second pit.... it involves calculating the cost of your overhead and breaking everything down to their least common denominator.

Here goes:

The two components of a resource’s real cost are the true gathering rate and overhead. Overhead is the cost of the resource gathering point (e.g. storage pit or granary). 10 farmers will have similar gathering rates as 10 woodies, although there is an additional cost of overhead (10 farms = 750w).

We will break down numbers to get the lowest common denominator to evaluate all resources- the villager second.

ResourceWood

Ave Gather Rate.345 w/s
Cost/Unit2.898 vs
Total Units4,000 w
Gather Cost11,592 vs
Building Cost377.76 vs
Total Cost11,969.76 vs
Real Cost2.99 vs
Overhead %3.15%

Steps For Finding the Real Cost:

1) Get the Ave. Gather Rate.
2) Find the Cost per Unit in Villager Seconds (vs) [1 wood / .345 w/s] = 2.898 villager seconds.
3) Estimate the Total Units efficiently gathered by one building (how much wood is in the forest or will be gathered into that gathering point).
4) Find the Gather Cost by [Cost/Unit * Total Units]
5) Find the resource gathering point’s Building Cost [[120w * 2.898vs] + 30s build time] = 377.76 vs
6) Add Gather Cost and Building Cost to find Total Cost [11,592+377.76] = 11,969.76 vs
7) Real Cost is Total Cost divided by Total Units [11,969.76 / 4,000] = 2.99 vs
8) Overhead % is Building Cost / Total Cost [377.76 / 11,969.76] = 3.15%

So in response to your question another Storage Pit would be 377.76 villager seconds cost. However, it is hard to determine the different rates that clustering will cause without a second pit. Best case scenerio would be somewhere around 0.346 wood gathered per second and I have done tests that bad pit placement (clustering/large walking distance) can get results as low as 0.26 wood gathered per second. 20 vills at one pit is brutal to the gathering rate.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-13-00 02:56 PM ET (US)     11 / 49       
BlitzkreigComin:
The reason I asked about twice as many pits is because mrfixitonline lists the wood gathering rate as .56w/sec. Unless the patch reduced woodcutting severely, they must have been doing something that we're not.
 
Still, regardless of the woodcutting rates, it would appear that woodworking has a large and increasing effect as the villager population increases. My conclusion is that one should advance to tool as soon as it can be done without delays between the advance and villager production, probably somewhere around 6:00-7:00 and arriving in tool around 8:00-9:00.
 
Anyways, I hope this turns the boom upside down long enough for new strats to emerge.

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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 12-13-00 03:35 PM ET (US)     12 / 49       
wedsaz:

The "gathering rate" doesn't account for:

1) The rate at which the villager gathers the resource. In wood's case it is 0.56 w/s.
2) The distance villager must walk to and from gathering point each trip.
3) The amount he can carry each trip.
4) The degree to which other vills are getting in his way.

So after you account for these things you get a more accurate "true gathering rate" that factors these in. I'm not disagreeing that a villager gathers wood at a rate of 0.56 w/s.... what I'm trying to show is after you factor in these 4 points it gives you 0.345 wood in the bank every second.

Dave
Clubman
posted 12-13-00 04:20 PM ET (US)     13 / 49       
Hmmm. I wonder if out of wedsaz' and Blitz' numbers we can get an idea of what the optimal number of woodies per pit would be. Any ideas?
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 12-13-00 05:00 PM ET (US)     14 / 49       
So in response to your topic I would have to compare these things:

True Gathering Rates: .345 w/s to .435 w/s upon woodworking research gives an actual increase of 25% wood in your stockpile once woodworking is researched.

Below assume this to be a high resource game so you can Tool immediately.

Now if you made 10 real vills giving you 13 TTL and then Tooled, put 11 on wood and 2 dock builders. You would hit the Tool button at 3:20 and arrive in Tool at 5:20 (once again this is high resources we are talking about). You have market built and woodcuting researched by 6:20. At the 5:20 mark you would boom villas until you reached 23. That would take 3:20 taking the game clock to 8:40 at which you would hit the Bronze upgrade and arrive in Bronze around 11:00.

If your opponent made 20 vills for a ttl of 23, he would hit Tool button at 6:40 and arrive in Tool at 8:40. He would have market up and woodcutting complete by 9:40.

Who has the most wood at 11:00. First lets assume that both you and your opponent uses all 1000 wood given at beginning of game on docks, fb's, granary, pit, and rax leaving you both 0 to begin analyzing gathering amounts.

From 3:20 to 6:20 your 11 woodies gather [11*.345*180]=683 wood and from 6:20 to 11:00 11 woodies would gather [11*.435*280]=1339. Let's assume it takes new villas 0:20 to get to woodpile and start chopping and your new villas in Tool Age start working around 6:00.

So your woodpile would look like this:
683 + 1339 = 2022 + additional vills in Tool (woodies 12-21)

woodie #12 brings in [1*.435*300] 130 wood TTL at 11:00
13 brings [1*.435*280]=121
14 brings [1*.435*260]=113
15 brings [1*.435*240]=104
16 brings 96, 17 brings 87, 18 brings 79, 19 brings 70, 20 brings 62, and finally 21 brings 53.

These vills (12-21) bring in a TTL of 915.

Grand TTL wood collected of 2022+915= 2937 Wood brought in up to the 11:00 Mark.

Your opponent's wood would look like this:

He would have the same results for his first 11 woodies in Stone, however at 3:20 he keeps making villas and they chop till 9:40 without woodworking, then from 9:40 to 11:00 all 21 chop with woodworking. His last vill(21 woodies) in Stone gets chopping at 7:00.

So: woodies 1-11 chop from 3:20 to 9:40 without woodworking [11*.345*380]=1442
vill 12 [1*.345*360]=124
vill 13 [1*.345*340]=117
vill 14 [1*.345*320]=110
vill 15 [1*.345*300]=104
16 brings 97, 17 brings 90, 18 brings 83, 19 brings 75, 20 brings 68, 21 brings 61, 22 brings 53, and finally 23 brings 46. This TTL is 1028 + 1442 for 2470 TTL

Then from 9:40 to 11:00 21 vills chop with woodcutting
[21*.435*80]=730

Add 730 to 2470 and you get a TTL of 3200 Wood gathered by your opponent who did 23 real vills in Stone. This is 263 more than you or roughly 9%.


BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 12-13-00 05:24 PM ET (US)     15 / 49       
Dave:

What I do about my second pit is always have my berry pickers do a second pit when they are finished. Whenever you look and see villas trapped in the forest unable to work, or see several woodies stopped at the pit unable to drop their load or they have dropped their load and can't get back to work... it is way past the time for a new pit.

How I noticed the second pit thing was how I've learned almost everything about this game. Somebody always kicked my butt in Tool navy wars. We had similar Tool times and villager counts but he could always mass Scout Ships longer than I could. I would resign and look at map and he did everything like me (basically), except he always had 2-3 pits and ALWAYS had optimal working situation for his woodies = little walking and no clustering... and never picking a forest that is on a hill.

It seems crazy to be spending wood on a new pit in the heat of a navy battle, but it is surprising what an immediate impact it has to your stockpile.

Dave
Clubman
posted 12-13-00 05:44 PM ET (US)     16 / 49       
Well that's just a gem of an idea. It is so simple that I always overlooked it.

Thanks Blitz and wedsaz:

I keep on reading these posts because every now and then there is something valuable like this to be gained. Even though it seems so obvious and clear, you don't always think about it until you see it or read about it.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-24-00 04:16 PM ET (US)     17 / 49       
meep meep
JKiller
Banned
posted 12-25-00 09:27 PM ET (US)     18 / 49       
You must have a very [sarcastic] interesting [/sarcastic] life.
CoMBaT Villager
Clubman
posted 12-25-00 10:48 PM ET (US)     19 / 49       
JKiller, your becoming very annoying. AokH may have more flames then hell itself, but we dont here.

..::Ace::..
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..::"Stay back, or I shall smite thee with my Advanced Heal!" ::..

[This message has been edited by CoMBaT Villager (edited 12-25-2000).]

JKiller
Banned
posted 12-26-00 01:59 PM ET (US)     20 / 49       
Quote:
JKiller, your becoming very annoying. AokH may have more flames then hell itself, but we dont here.

I didn't start the flames. The originator of this post did. If anybody was offended, I apologize. By the way, that wasn't even a flame...

U don't flame here? BS. I come for 1 day and that's all I see. If that was a joke, it was pretty lame.

Caesar Constintine
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 03:15 PM ET (US)     21 / 49       
Wow!!!

nice research- but I need a clearification...

This means to stay in tool longer- or don't?

thanks

CoMBaT Villager
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 03:43 PM ET (US)     22 / 49       
Caesar:
Yes, stay in tool longer.


Jkiller:
I didnt mean you had flammed, you just come from a place where thats all that goes on, so your additude here is not welcome.
You come here and flames is all you see?
Maybe caus' some a**hole from AokH came here, made a stupid remark, and wouldnt listen to people who said you were wrong.

Leave us alone, your damn quoting is getting really old, really fast, so knock it off or get out.

Caesar Constintine
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 03:57 PM ET (US)     23 / 49       
Staying in tool, no problem for me
thanks
HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 04:36 PM ET (US)     24 / 49       
"all I see is flames."

...so the natural conclusion is that they are coming from those around you...even though they're actually going to them, from you.


oh, and please flame me more...I find your language most amusing.


HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
JKiller
Banned
posted 12-26-00 05:18 PM ET (US)     25 / 49       
I'm not going to explain the quotes, and the only a$$ I see here is you, and Hmule. I said I apologized and you started with me. What attitude?

Quote:
Jkiller:
I didnt mean you had flammed, you just come from a place where thats all that goes on, so your additude here is not welcome.
You come here and flames is all you see?
Maybe caus' some a**hole from AokH came here, made a stupid remark, and wouldnt listen to people who said you were wrong.


No actually there are intelligent debates over there. Just occasionally some stupid people, which I see also inhabit this forum. I'm not going to reply here anymore, so if you want to say something to me, then do it in another thread.


Quote:
...so the natural conclusion is that they are coming from those around you...even though they're actually going to them, from you.

The natural conclusion is that now you are flaming me, whether you realize or not. Your attempts at comebacks are stupid, and your verbal representation is quite unnerving. Sound a little hesitant there.

Quote:
oh, and please flame me more...I find your language most amusing.

I never flamed in you in the first place. My language is standard English, unless you have some sort of deficency in it. I don't see why you find it amusing.


[This message has been edited by JKiller (edited 12-26-2000).]

CoMBaT Villager
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 05:57 PM ET (US)     26 / 49       
Jkiller:
you couldnt make me happier then to not reply any more.
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 06:53 PM ET (US)     27 / 49       
Caesar:

It doesn't mean stay in Tool longer.

What this analysis shows is that there is no reward for Tooling fast with very few villagers with the goal of being in Tool longer at a higher wood gathering rate.

Stay in Stone and get more villagers.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 07:09 PM ET (US)     28 / 49       
Blitz:
I think you got it upside down. Tool as early as possible, make your villies in tool instead of stone, and you'll get more wood.
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 07:17 PM ET (US)     29 / 49       
wedsaz:

No!

Stay in Stone and you'll have more wood.

HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 08:00 PM ET (US)     30 / 49       
Maybe we should get this jkiller guy to stay. I'm really starting to have fun here. While acting like a total dipshit, he's actually done nothing more offensive than to imply through the use of quotes that we are unable to scroll down and reread our own posts (presuming that our memories were also that short.) It's king of like peace fanatacists getting slaughtered by warriors.

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 08:37 PM ET (US)     31 / 49       
Blitz:
Look at the numbers. Earlier tool w/less villies = more wood by the time the other one tools, because woodworking makes your woodies work 35% faster.
 
What this means in other words, is that it's better to do your boom in tool not stone, to get the *large* benefit of woodworking. Strange but true.
Caesar Constintine
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 08:53 PM ET (US)     32 / 49       
It does make sense, if you think about it- few villies in Stone, then when you get to Tool do the wood upgrade quickly- build many villies- chop trees more efieciently *BOOM*

Or you can put it in all thoughs confusing numbers...

but can you spare the 2 minutes that you upgrade to tool, that is the question, who knows- some unexperianced player may do some kind of stone rush or early tool attack (just a joke)

G'Night all


*The might of Carthage, victors from the Cedars of Lebanon to the Pillars of Hercules,
the great traders and the worlds greatest navy.
Prepare to be defeated!
*We are Macedonians, we don't convert that easily.
HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 09:13 PM ET (US)     33 / 49       
what you're saying makes sense wedsaz, but somehow it doesn't work out, possibly because it's harder to build up in tool than stone, which would be for 3 reasons.

1. in tool, it's time to either start rushing, or prepare to be rushed. Any good player will at least give you SOME hassle in tool.

2. it takes longer to build up in tool because you have already drained your initial, easy to find and reach resources. Now you don't have enough there to get very far, meaning you have to first move on to another food source (which usu. means a new building).

3. rushing to tool (I am careful not to say toolrushing) means you have to have all your vills on food since you're going to go for most of your wood after, but you need almost the same balance of woodies and foodies anyway just so you can keep from getting housed and be ready to pit a couple forests in tool right away, and you have to build two stone buildings before tooling, don't you? With this method, I'm presuming a late entry onto the sea too, which is in itself a very bad thing.


HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 10:00 PM ET (US)     34 / 49       
HM:
1. Your booming opponent is still in stone. Give him some hassle and he'll stay there.
2. By the same minutes on the clock, you'd have used up those resources booming also.
3. Back when people were going for a land strat, they only needed 2-3 villies on wood to grow their econ. The boomer will need just as much food as you in the long run, since he'll be going tool eventually as well... right?
4. The boomer's extra FBs better bring in fish pretty fast, because you'll have extra scout ships before he even tools, and still more than him once he does tool since you had more wood to spend. In other words, by the time he tools, you're ahead and he's dead in the water (literally).
 
In a way, this is the opposite of the fastboom strat. Emphasis on wood for a naval war instead of food for a land war.
Dave
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 10:31 PM ET (US)     35 / 49       
So when do we finally get to pit (hehe, pardon the pun) these two strats against one another?

[This message has been edited by Dave (edited 12-26-2000).]

HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 10:34 PM ET (US)     36 / 49       
1. rushing to tool always gives you a weak econ...you can't hassle the other guy.

2. huh? I think you are misenterpretting math again, and ignoring x-factors. That is, supposing I have any idea what you mean.

3. the boomer will need just as much food, but when it's time for him to move on, he won't be too strapped for wood to do so.

4. that is presuming it works, but it don't.s


HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-26-00 10:54 PM ET (US)     37 / 49       
HM:
1. At what point is it rushing? 10 mins tool? 9 mins tool? 8 mins tool? 7 mins tool? Every minute you shave off will increase your wood stockpile.
2. No comment.
3. The player who got woodworking earlier will be the one with extra wood. If he's strapped for wood, the boomer won't have any at all.
4. The math says it. If you disagree with 1+1=2, that's your problem.
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 12-27-00 01:45 AM ET (US)     38 / 49       
HELLOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ANYONE LISTENING?????????

wedsaz I did the numbers in this thread -- go reread my earlier posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Staying in Stone gives you more wood than Tooling!!!!!!!

I am sorry I went over everyone's head with my analysis.

Let me be very clear -- Staying in Stone gives you more wood.

Reread post 14 in this thread.

(Basically it proves I'm right and wedsaz is wrong--LOL)

wedsaz your 1+1 is nowhere near to 2.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-27-00 03:55 AM ET (US)     39 / 49       
BlitzkreigComin:

I did an analysis using your new numbers,
and the woodworking effect still applies
although it's pushed a bit later due to
the smaller improvement.

http://www.urmud.com/wedsaz/aoe/wood01.htm

Looking at this, 18 woodies would be
pretty close to being the optimal amount.

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 12-27-00 04:20 AM ET (US)     40 / 49       
hmmmmm...

I see your chart there but I can't seem to get a grasp of it. How do you see that 18 woodies is the optimal amount? What does the W and T represent? Where do you show that Tooling quickly gives you more wood?

One note to think about: In high resource games on the Zone, why is it that the worst thing you can do is build 2 buildings at start of game and hit Tool button? It is impossible to win doing this.

I am convinced from both gameplay and statistics that it is very foolish to rush to Tool for the sole purpose to start booming.

I love researching and learning about gathering rates. I think that the research and understanding of resource gathering will make anyone a better player.

Hopefully we can keep this thread alive so we can all learn more about how to find different rates and apply them to our gameplay.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-27-00 04:54 AM ET (US)     41 / 49       
BlitzkreigComin:
1. The numbers at the top (12, 18, 24, 36) are woodies before tooling.
2. T is the tool upgrade, W is when the woodworking upgrade is completed.
3. The numbers in the chart itself, and at the bottom of it, is the amount of wood gathered
4. Tooling quickly doesn't give you more wood - woodworking multiplies the effect of your woodcutters. So what this chart does is help find the balance between the wood gained from getting woodworking earlier, and the wood that extra villies would gather before that.
 
5. The fastboom strat used to work great in high res games since there wasn't a villie delay due to going pit-first, and you could put your docks down right away.
 
6. This chart doesn't say whether or not tooling quickly before booming is foolish or not. All it says is that you get a bigger wood stockpile doing so, once you have enough woodies of course. Also it says you have a bit less wood until the moment you'd tool if you were booming bigger in stone, which may mean less FBs early on and therefore less food. So it's a tradeoff - which do you need most in early tool, food or wood?
7. If food is more important, you may want to look into various pit starts. Good civs for pit starts include (but may nto be limited to) persian, minoan, shang and roman.
 
I like game-related math in general, gathering rates are just one facet of that. Strength of units relative to each other is another useful chunk of math in AoE.
 
Something harder to measure: What are the pros and cons of bronzing earlier to make villies from multiple TCs - when is it worthwhile?

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Caesar Constintine
Clubman
posted 12-27-00 08:16 AM ET (US)     42 / 49       
If I was to do this, I would consider three factors

1.)Food, though you will have afew villies on berries and one or two on farms(in tool)
2.)The tool upgrading time, a minute or two yes, but it cost 500 food, no trianing villies during this time...
3.)The enemy, I believe if they are reliant on fish- a scout attack will realy mess them up- but they could fish elsewhere- but if they build 6 or 7 fish boats (with time more)and are soley reliant on them- and you keep your naval superiority they will have to turn to farms, go on defence- if all goes well.

I guess it dependes on the cercumstances of the game, like if they field a land force- or make it to tool when your scouts get over there and build towers and slingers- though fight. This "strat" will most likely work much much better with you as the Pheosians or Minoans.

I don't think this strat will work all of the time, but even so- it's worthy of consideration every time you play a multiplayer game.

I still say good job on the data and arguments, wedsaz
Nice debate BlitzkreigComin

HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 12-27-00 12:06 PM ET (US)     43 / 49       
wedsaz, rushing to tool and then booming is what I did back when I always lost. learning to stay in stone was one of the key factors in me finally improving past good rookie. There is no question in my mind what works here, and I will play the way I know works. Just the opposite of most geniuses, wedsaz, you are well AFTER your time.

The time and resources lost tooling cripple you for so long in tool, that it's 15min into the game before you once again thrive...and by then you should be attacking in bronze. Your method also has you tooling while you have little economy at all, which means that time is literally wasted. Tooling later, you can still expand your navy and continue stockpiling res and get ready to build an army, make sure you have all the buildings you need and won't get housed, etc.

I have never been more sure of myself, you have to tool later, not sooner. An ideal tool time is within 2 mins of when you intend to bronze unless you plan a big toolrush.


HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 12-27-00 02:39 PM ET (US)     44 / 49       
Caesar_Constintine:
1. Yes, food hasn't been considered much in my analysis.
2. I did consider the fact that you can't train villies while tooling, and the chart takes that into account.
3. I've been told the boat war is the center of the tool war, and the reason for the high villie count. Well, this would increase the amount of wood chopped so it would be better in that situation. If wood for boat wars isn't that important, a pit-first stone boom would be better. Which is it?
 
HM:
The numbers speak for themselves. Go ahead and close your eyes for all I care.
HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 12-28-00 02:28 PM ET (US)     45 / 49       
oh yes, your all powerful #s, as abused as they are...it was no idiot that said statistics can prove anything.

And MY batteries have Esquared technology!

I'm not ignoring them...I'm discounting them as inconclusive and inaccurate due to oversimplification and the failure to account for so many things, a few of which I have already mentioned...and you have not refuted.


HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
JKiller
Banned
posted 12-29-00 06:34 PM ET (US)     46 / 49       
Statistics aren't used to prove something, but to give insight to a current trend, or pattern. Numbers are unbiased and factual. Why don't you point out any inconsistencies in Wedsaz's numbers. Or was your rhetoric just an idiot's abuse of a thesaurus?
HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 12-30-00 04:25 PM ET (US)     47 / 49       
In case you haven't noticed, I've already shown him what's wrong with his logic.

See my earlier posts for yourself, I don't feel like quoting myself for someone who doesn't really care whether I'm right or not.


HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?

[This message has been edited by HonoredMule (edited 12-30-2000).]

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-10-01 02:10 PM ET (US)     48 / 49       
Top!
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-16-01 04:59 AM ET (US)     49 / 49       
'Top!' goes de veasel.
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