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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » The Hall of Fame » the complete guide to slinger rushing partII
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Topic Subject:the complete guide to slinger rushing partII
matty
Big Daddy
posted 04-16-99 00:38 AM ET (US)         
sorry to both you NoSoup but i don't remember you playing me and beating me with your slinger rush(perhaps you were smurfing)....but if you were smurfing...i must say i haven't lost to anyone who has slinger rushed me in quite a while. Axers easily take down slingers and i am always happy to see a troop of 5 slingers walking into my town rather then 5 axers.
Slingers have some major drawbacks....25 hit points, only do 2 points of damage and you can't build them until tool.
Other drawbacks of slingers are the fact that they die so easily to a few axers, if you bring them in in 2s or 3s then villagers can easily kill them. Another HUGE drawback is that they are useless on any map with large amounts of water (ie continental, mediteranean). The reason for this is a few boats will rip the slingers a new hole.
I would be more then happy to have a shang battle with you....where you do only slingers and i do only axers.....it will be fun all you gotta do is tell me what name you are smurfing under.
AuthorReplies:
Potejon
Clubman
posted 04-16-99 05:10 AM ET (US)     1 / 37       
You know, part deux would have sounded cooler.

Slingers seem weak
Not multi but in single map practicing and so on comp sends all his vills to gang up on the slingers and they die but in multi opponent runs from my 4 slingers it is just to weird and he build slingers to battle my slingers(I use axers), just want to ask again is slingers really so weak as they appear in single?

Spam
Clubman
posted 04-16-99 10:54 AM ET (US)     2 / 37       
I think the slinger rush is a "specialist" item - in very specific circumstances, and in competent hands, it is great, but it also has a great potential to fall flat on its face.

Drawbacks of the slingerrush:
1) Slow - no slingers until tool, requires a build up of troops before it can work
2) Expensive - u need many slingers, several barracks and stonemining for it to be really effective
3) Costs stone - usually meaning u have to mine the stuff to be able to wall in and get the mining upgrade
4) Small window of opportunity - the slingerrush is a late tool attack, and chances are your slingers will be facing cav/camels pretty soon
5) Requires a scout - when people run, slingers often have trouble finding their relocation spot
6) Easy to counter with scoutships (especially Hittite ones), as Matty pointed out.

I still think the slingerrush is the most powerful toolrush but I never use it, for these reasons. Too many things can go wrong, and if they go wrong u lose much more than if an axer attack fails.

My 2 cents

Spam

matty
Big Daddy
posted 04-16-99 11:49 AM ET (US)     3 / 37       
slingers are good in certain circumstances. Used in combination with axers they can make a tool rush much more well rounded. Slingers are also good as an early bronze defense/offense against archer civs(civs where people often will continue to throw archers at you and not think to build a cavalry or chariot to kill you) A group of slingers will quickly take down Chariot archers and even comp bowmen
NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 04-16-99 01:57 PM ET (US)     4 / 37       
Matty,

"I'll take axers you take slingers"

Get real matty we know the outcome to that fight (if this is really you considering your e-mail on your HGS profile is different than on other sites). I would refer you to my reply regarding the slinger rush on Videre's post further down. Tool attacks to be effective typically require an element of surprise. As for 2 AP's? its 3 with stonemining or one round of fire to kill a villager with 9 slingers. As for 5 slingers walking in at one time into your woodies how many cutters do you have? Do you pull all your villagers off of food to bone them?

I NEVER said this worked all the time and definitely is not for everyone but it CERTAINLY is a valid strat. And as for other comments about how this strat only works well against players of lesser ability...hmmm how many strats work well, all things being equal, against players that are truly better than you? I guess you want to boom against a superior player? Hardly, this player's micromanagement skills are better than yours and the gap will increase as the scale of the game increases.

As far as boats & hittite boats, what can I say but point taken, its what I do when someone slinger rushes me.

Glad to see you posting on HGS matty, expert opinion is always welcome. Good luck in UAT3, where they sending you guys when you win it?

kurtiebird
Inactive
posted 04-16-99 02:35 PM ET (US)     5 / 37       
I wouldn't put Matty in the winner's circle just yet. Staffa is on the other side, and we all know his reputation.

Just a reminder: __bane is currently #1

Go Staffa!

Kurtiebird
Veni Vidi Vici
kcochran@kc.net

Imperius_Jim
Inactive
posted 04-16-99 03:39 PM ET (US)     6 / 37       
Well, I have my own version of the slinger rush that varies from NoSoup4U's a bit. Basically, the idea is to get ten upgraded slingers in your opponent's town by the ten-minute mark (never attack with less than six.) I borrowed heavily from gutter rat's old "brush" strategy to make it work. It's definitely a situational thing and I only use it in 1 on 1s on large or smaller maps (obviously not on islands). So far, I've only lost once when using this strat and that was to a guy who was smart enough to split his villagers and run them to opposite corners (I didn't see the second group in time.)

All it takes to pull this off is a berry patch and gazelles near forest (yet another reason I don't play 2.0.) This is definitely a do-or-die approach since it really only allows enough food for 18 vills, ten slingers, and usually a scout. It's tough to wall in using this as you need all your starting stone for the slingers and stone mining and you'll need a lot of guys chopping wood during the tool upgrade so you can afford additional barracks, the market, and finally a stable. Tough to budget a new storage pit or granary in there. But if you have two barracks up when you hit tool, you can have six slingers 60 seconds later. The nice thing is that once you have ten slingers they really are just about unstoppable. Ten slingers with stone mining will drop any tool unit in two volleys or less and can bring down a watch tower in just over ten seconds.

Last_Knight
Clubman
posted 04-16-99 05:00 PM ET (US)     7 / 37       
7 ways to kill slingers:

1) Fast cavalry units: cavalry, chariot, camels, etc.
2) Siege weapons for late bronze or iron age. One stone thrower can crush many slingers.
3) Warships (except fire galleys).
4) Strong archers: elephant and horse archers (Hittites are the best).
5) Archers with more range (minoan compies are the best example).
6) For early slinger rush villagers can help. Assyrian or Yamato villies can easily catch them (more speed), and sumerian villies are stronger (more h/ps).
7) Any hand to hand unit can kill slingers, unless the slingers hit-and-run.

------------------
Last Knight
Enter my site to see the "horse slingers": suggestion for slingers upgrade
http://members.xoom.com/AOK_Castle

[This message has been edited by Last_Knight (edited 04-16-99).]

BurchaQ
Inactive
posted 04-16-99 06:07 PM ET (US)     8 / 37       
Nosoup. If you say something, you have to mean it, no? I played Matty several times, though I have never been a good opponent for him. Anyways, I am good enough to know that if you send 4 slingers at 11 (considering you tool at 10 as you say), you will certainly lose. And for another matter. Staffa is good, and seems too proud. I don't know him personally, but as I know matty, I will say, just to mention the fact that I don't know the possible result:

Go matty, go.


Good Luck to anyone playing UAT3. Good Luck to staffa, bane, and my special good luck to matty.

smoking_mirror
Inactive
posted 04-17-99 01:11 AM ET (US)     9 / 37       
Axers not only arrive on the scene earlier but they chase vills around the map while slingers just watch them run away. Sadly, I mainly know this from being on the receiving end of someone else's successful tool rush. However, when its a real small map (like large continental) or you know early on the enemy is right next to you and you can expect heavy tool warfare missle units seem to quickly overcome axers and I'd go for slingers and then archers asap. You have like a minute after tool before that 400-500 food investment on 4-6 axers becomes obsolete.
FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 04-17-99 01:02 PM ET (US)     10 / 37       
I can't believe STALlN lost.. that sucks.. oh well i think that bane and methos will win, but i am not sure! I mean look at Matty, he has won the RoR tourny, (just cause STALlN couldnt make it)

And look how far he went, Out4Blood is also mighty good. Even though i still can't forget my third rated game. Matty, Out4Blood, and me.. and we lost lol i didnt do that bad so don't blame me for everything.

FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 04-17-99 04:45 PM ET (US)     11 / 37       
Matty + Out4Blood won, 2-0 in the best of 3 games...

matty
Big Daddy
posted 04-17-99 06:11 PM ET (US)     12 / 37       
Ok here is the scoop,IMO, on tool attacking and why i think the investment of slingers is too much. You are saying to use 9 slingers WITH the wood upgrade. simple math tells you that is 460 food before you get anything that resembles a good offense. The major problem is it takes so long to get the 9 once you have hit tool.
To do a proper axer rush i need to find the enemy and have the first barracks constructed/being constructed by the time i am %50 tool and my opponent must not be tool by this time. Then i immediatly start building my second barracks. This usually allows me to have about 4 clubbers before i am even tool. When i hit tool i get the attack upgrade and the axer upgrade. I send my axers right at where i know your villagers are and kill as many as i can. You will run and i will chase you for a bit. You may send slingers against me but they will die with 4 swings of my ax and you will have to hit 1!!!! axer 25 times!!!! I am still buildinng axers and by the 12 minute marker have about 12 of them. You are trying to relocate your base and i have all 12 axers on your town centre which you soon find is dead...then all your houses die next. At this point in the game i know i have you so i am getting lazy. Maybe i build a scout or maybe i just decide to villager boom in tool while my axers happily wander the land destroying anything in their path.

Don't get me wrong i think that slingers have their place but their place is only in a mixed army or when you are playing against newbies.
You said you have played against the best with your slinger rush but i think you failed to say whether you won or not and also failed to mention what name you played under(so i could verify if you won or lost). I have been beaten by MANY players in my time and i have beaten just as many. BUT in all the times i have played serious games i NEVER use the slinger rush!!!I only save the slinger rush for games when i am beating up on some newbie and want to screw around....the reason....if i play someone of equal experience and i slinger rush....i am throwing away the match

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 04-17-99 07:18 PM ET (US)     13 / 37       
Wood upgrade?

Would the real matty please step forward.

matty
Big Daddy
posted 04-18-99 07:48 PM ET (US)     14 / 37       
hahaha DOH STONE upgrade
Spam
Clubman
posted 04-19-99 10:33 AM ET (US)     15 / 37       
Here's an idea for an improved (but more expensive) slinger rush: lead with armored clubbers, then switch to slingers. This is rather expensive, a do-or-die toolattack, but it sure is hard to counter. The main force still consists of 8-10 slingers. Ideally, the clubbers should enter the enemy area from one direction while u produce slingers in another. You are more likely to find all of his vills that way, and if he runs they are more likely to run into the slinger troop. And after u have 3-4 clubbers and 10 slingers, concentrate on scouts and scoutships. Don't bother with going bronze, after that investment in tool military u have to finnish it in tool anyway. This should make a good toolattack, IMO.

My 2 cents

Spam

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 04-19-99 11:32 AM ET (US)     16 / 37       
Hopefully this long war story from a late night 2v2 huge cont random civs game will suffice to say that slinger attacks can be effective. It will also show why I honestly now vote for Palmy as the WORST civ (even worse than Greece)

Anyhow.. I was getting ready for bed when plghh zm'ed me and we set up a 2v2 after 10 minutes of advertising for expert opponents 2 good players showed up (both post occasionally) I get Egypt at 12 and Plghh gets Palmy at 3. Enemies are brown(Palmy) and yellow(Bab). My spot has a close forest, but a relatively wide search shows no berries and no meat. The coast has two SF together north of TC and there is one Ocean fish to the west and one SF to my east. In short, fishing doesn't look as good as I'd like.Unwilling, to lose much time in peon production, I simply pit the 2 SF. Although this only provided 500 food, it got me started fine and I soon had wood for a granary (having found berries finally). I was still planning on speed bronzing w/one dock and then hitting w/Egypts tough Char/CA's, perhaps preceeded by a scout and some camels. I have been tooled so often w/Egypt and it was 2v2 so I wasn't going to boom and tool in the 11's.

I get a late 9's tool w/21 vils and a few boats(1 dock) Meanwhile my 2 explorers still haven't found my bronzing food. I put up a 2nd dock but the fishing wasn't good enough that I could see a fast bronze. My spot was easily wallable(safe from quick counter attack!)and I said as I crossed the shallows, "Let's see if we can tool rush someone!" Sure enough I find the Palmy and he is booming too !! I started my rax just after I tooled and thus didn't have the benefit of queueing clubbers during my tool transition. Thus, I said, "let's try slingers" and hit stone mining research. Up went a second rax.. and once I had only 3 slingers it was time to disrupt the woodies. I could tell he had many FB's and as I had just started a scout ship, I really needed to disrupt his woodchopping and fishing before he boomed to a healthy Palmy bronze.
However, Palmy vils have 1 piercing armor so my slingers only did 2 damage. I was running them around and disrupting every woodie I could while checking to try to hit the most wounded vils. He still wasn't tool yet ! .. my two builders died putting up a stable, but he lost two vils killing them. Soon, he lost a couple more vils and my first 3 slingers had been boned. My next two slingers only inflicted wounds before dieing.. however, my next two killed three "walking wounded Palmyrans".

Now my 2 scouts ships hit a large fishing fleet which dispersed quickly as I chased them to a second dock. Palmy clubbers showed up so I realized that he must have clicked tool (doubting that he'd delay his tool to make them) and soon I'd be fighting tool units. My next two scout ships found him with a scout ship and sunk it while the first two chased what was left of his fishing far away. Plghh gave me his stone so I could make a few more slingers and by the time his axers and slingers showed up I had 5 slingers together and killed two of his slingers several more vils(aided by a few scout ship arrows) and a couple of axers, before it was obvious that I had done plenty of damage and only needed a short wait to bronze and finish him off.

Meanwhile, Plghh had reported that he was bronzing unmolested and indeed he had a BIG boom. I managed to bronze in the mid 17's just as Plghh's first attack wave hit the Bab enemy,keeping him busy. The Palmy was 2/3 dead and I kept after him w/CA's and Chariots and some war galleys. I sent more war Galleys after the Bab and found that the Palmy had a few peons over their near 6 and a dock with his last FB's.

My galleys, beat back Bab galleys and then killed several Bab goldminers. The palmy somehow bronzed weakly at about 23 but could make enough camels to save himself. Three more of my galleys sailed by a Palmy granary and sent two more of his "walking woundeds" to their graves. Plghh then ironed and finished off the Bab w/scythes and cats and they gave up.

My point here is that I used a SLOW civ (Egypt) with a minor slinger rush vs Palmy and severely messed him up. I attacked when I only had 3 slingers and did no offensive towering and yet, aided by scout ships(but his chopping was disrupted so he could not fight back at sea!), wreaked his game. I made only 10 or 11 slingers in all. Since, my slingers only inflicted 2 damage while upgraded/armor clubbers would inflict 4 damage on Palmy, that clubber/axer approach my be superior. However, I used LESS food my way, and the slingers range was very useful as I could shoot and then back up and then shoot.. and then he'd go back to the wood and I'd attack again... etc.. etc..

I certainly am not the best tool rusher around ! Yet, I have never seen the enemy side win a 3v3 or 2v2 when they have had Palmy and I have tool rushed that Palmy. I have beaten on Palmy w/yam scouts/shang scouts/ several civs' clubbers/axers... phoe bowmen w/clubbers once.. and now an Egyptian slinger attack. I'd happily trade 10 or 11 40 food slingers for 10 or 11 75 food Palmy peons any day !.

When you attack and kill 8 of 16 palmy peons you kill HALF his economy. When you attack and kill 8 of a normal civs likely 24 peons you only kill only 1/3 of his economy. The effect of the tool attack on Palmy is worse than that however. Peons that are attacked and either fleeing or fighting back aren't working. Palmy's super workers lose more gathering time due to disruption than do other civs workers. Once, you kill a few there only remains a significantly smaller percentage of them.. resulting in even a greater percentage of economic damage even if they sucessfully bone you. Also, the loss of several Palmy peons means that they need a significant portion of their workers to stop gathering to build any needed buildings. The higher your gathering rate, the greater the effects of time lost not gathering.

Even my mediocre slinger rush was enough to severely damage the Palmyran civ whose Achilles Heal is it's inability to deal with an early tool attack... neilkaz..

[This message has been edited by neilkaz (edited 04-19-99).]

BurchaQ
Inactive
posted 04-19-99 02:10 PM ET (US)     17 / 37       
Has anyone got something to say? Slingers are good aganist tool bowman, and also good aganist ca's (for example, trying to Iron Jump with Choson and by the way protecting yourself from enemy with slingers some minutes is a good idea). But, slingers cannot rush. I can explain it in that way: Slingers are meant to kill archers (+2 piercing armor, and +2 attack bonus aganist archers explain that). And thus, slingers are not meant to kill villagers, cost too much because of that if you want to use them aganist villagers. As, I think, matty pointed out. It is a kind of "Funny New Bie Killer". And by the way, matty and out4blood won.
NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 04-19-99 02:38 PM ET (US)     18 / 37       
BurchaQ,

Your an idiot, its apparent from your comments you haven't thought about the timing or looked at how the rush is performed properly for context.

Its like saying "scout rushing in iron never works"

Matty is a great player but I find his (if its him) comments, especially with regard to timing, somewhat disturbing, hence my questioning of whether thats Matty at all.

Matty (?)

"Building the 1st barracks @ 50% tool and then the second so you have four clubbers" by tool. This timing works? in what game??

I'm enjoying getting testy about this just because I feel I'm right.

PS I'll also be smurfing around some and making a list checking it twice for the naysayers!

[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 04-19-99).]

[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 04-19-99).]

[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 04-19-99).]

Staffa
Inactive
posted 04-19-99 02:54 PM ET (US)     19 / 37       
I was on the receiving end of a very well done slinger rush some time ago in a team mediteranian game.

It caught me competely by surprise with my offensive(ranges for hittite archers) way the heck far off.

It came in at around 11 minutes with about 6 upgraded slingers. Very timely and in good sized numbers. I did a fleeing holding action while putting down a barracks and building clubbers with attack upgrades. I held it off pretty easily losing maybe 5 villagers and several clubbers. The attack occured within my walls thus walls were not a factor. If those slingers had been axers I would have lost that game.

Imo, slinger rushes are a novelity attack which might be superior in very narrow situtations, but in general if you can slinger rush, then you can axer rush, and an axer rush is better.

Best of all is an axer rush with slingers mixed in to take down tool archers(axers biggest enenmy, and break down walls/towers quickly) Also, slingers have a greater range of visibility and make an excellent support unit for axers, not to mention being built from the same building.

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 04-19-99 05:51 PM ET (US)     20 / 37       
Staffa,

I appreciate the post and actually acknowledge your comments regarding how an axer rush is better (pursuit etc.) but I'd like to add a few more comments. In response to the slinger rush did you build an additional barracks?? While you may not have needed too, many people, in response to a large slinger rush will either have to relocate or build a second barracks to counter effectively. With an axer rush, to counter effectively, the "bronze age useful" archery can be built as a counter instead of the barracks and of course be used to make CA or other bronze age units. Just some thoughts on the dynamics of responses to different tool rushes.

I have actually stepped up my frequency of axer rushing quite lately and have been very pleased with the results although I often feel cheated by the high sunk costs of the 100 food axer upgrade and thus tend to not include slingers at all unless the enemies archery ranges go up period.

As for Matties (?) comment regarding how easily axers counter slingers, you always get the axer upgrade in tool? I doubt it unless your getting rushed or are tooling yourself. Hence an additional delay in building countering force and taking down slingers.

Cya around BurchaQ

------------------

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 04-19-99 06:33 PM ET (US)     21 / 37       
A question for Staffa and NoSoup etc. But first I have no doubt that my slinger rush on the Palmy would have been more effective if I had gone w/upgraded clubbers. The point of my post was to show how vulnerable Palmy is to any early tool action and too show that even hitting w/3 slingers can cause a bother. .. anyhow

My question is in regards to the axer upgrade. I tend to save the 100 food and the axer upgrade time(tomake more clubbers) and just go with +2/+2 clubbers. Once I have quite a few clubbers I may upgrade them if they are being counter attacked.
Other than that I usually won't upgrade the clubbers until I am bronzed and if I have a few left and can do something offensive with them. Again in 3v3's I want to save a 100 food to bronze sooner... so should I be getting the axer upgrade when I am clubber attacking ?.. neilkaz ..

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 04-19-99 06:55 PM ET (US)     22 / 37       
Neil,

If I'm upgrading clubbers I upgrade them to axers 1st, then get the armor, and then, rarely, get toolworking. I was actually amazed in matty's (?)previous post that he suggested toolworking 1st. This is a bad idea. Leather armor makes axers all but invulnerable to villagers (1 damage). Useless? I disagree, say your rush is petering out and you have three damaged axers left your trying to get the most out of by killing a few peons. In this case you often have defending axers taking hacks at you while your running after villagers. In this scenerio the armor is so worth the 75 food and certainly cheaper than toolworking. lastly, and maybe I am dead wrong on this one, but axers seem ever so slightly faster than clubbers which seems to allow them to pursue running peons much better.


Lastly, Neil, since you are such a good boomer are you really sweating the 100 food for the axer upgrade? I know I'm usually not food short in a brush tool situation.
[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 04-19-99).]

[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 04-19-99).]

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 04-19-99 07:08 PM ET (US)     23 / 37       
When I clubber rush, I hit the upgrade for armor as soon as I tool. Next, is tool woorking (concurrently if I have 2 pits). Now vils die in 5 hits and my clubbers can't be boned easily. I thus don't spend 100 food on dead end axer tech and don't tie up one of my two raxes researching it early. Now I can build clubbers from both.
I got the armored clubber idea from Methos' guide at GX.

Contrastingly, if I am attacking later ..like during my bronze upgrade, for example, I may have a 3rd rax at home and also can spare 100 food for axers. With two rax's then built on the enemy I may actually end up using some SSmen after bronzing too if they canbe useful.. neilkaz..

Imperius_Jim
Inactive
posted 04-19-99 07:36 PM ET (US)     24 / 37       
Have to agree with Neil, I ALWAYS go for the infantry armor first. Even though I'll probably make no more infantry units and the attack upgrade would come in really handy for stable units, I usually don't get Toolworking until later. The math is obvious, if you can reduce all hand-to-hand attacks on you by 2/3 versus doing two more damage per hit, go for the armor. Then again, this is the opposite of what Matty does and he seems to do all right.

And that's definitely Matty, NoSoup. Someone asked him in Worldwide if he started this thread and he said yep (or words to that effect.) I also watched him two games and both times he went for the Axer and attack upgrades before armor.

[This message has been edited by Imperius_Jim (edited 04-19-99).]

FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 04-19-99 07:51 PM ET (US)     25 / 37       
Why do you guys even go so deep? All i do is just build as much barracks as i can afford, then pump slingers out of them and .. attack!!! yay!!! Of course it never works on good players.. but i try

I just felt like posting that stupid post... but i am not a newbie

Hey Nosoup4u, where can i dig up your slinger rush strat so that i can actually read it? Then i can read these replies here and get involved..

A lot of great players are posting here!

matty
Big Daddy
posted 04-19-99 08:08 PM ET (US)     26 / 37       
point 1) axers are better then slingers at everything except for taking down archers and walls
2)as for 'exact' timing you will find i am not that kind of player. Any times i give you will always be approximate. You must take what i say and at least do a little work by yourself to see what works.
3)the only 'wasted' food is the axer upgrade which is 100. This is 50 less stone then the 'wasted' stone upgrade . The other attack upgrade i get is greatly useful when i switch over to chariots in bronze.
4) are you the real nosoup4u....i am beginning to doubt it :P
5) countering a tool age axer rush with archers is a VERY bad idea. You will waste your food and die even more horribly....
6) you obviously don't know how to do a proper axer rush because you are wasting food on defense. The point of the axer rush is offense. If his villagers chase you then run...however once you get 2 axers hitting at 7 a piece it doesn't take long to kill 2 villagers to even out the loses. Getting the defense upgrade tends to get the enemy to run while just getting the more useful offensive upgrades will often result in the enemy decimating his villagers trying to kill you. This is a tried and true method. People think since the axers have no defense they can take them.....i don't know how many times someone has tried to take down my axers with villagers. The other problem with boning my axers is that by the time you kill 3 of them i have 3 more built and fighting.
Imperius_Jim
Inactive
posted 04-19-99 08:30 PM ET (US)     27 / 37       
Matty:

As far as point 6 is concerned I rarely do an "Axer rush." My general point in sending clubbers in is a harassment ploy until the "real" rush hits. And I've found that in a lot of cases, players WILL try to fight armored clubbers and yet run from unarmored Axers. Then again, I haven't won any trips to Rome using this strat...

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 04-19-99 09:34 PM ET (US)     28 / 37       
Well matty I absolutely agree with you on the boning issue with villagers, whether its slingers or axers (see previous threads). A stand and fight with villagers is the best you can hope for, as I have stated previously and one of the big plusses with the slinger rush, while not everyone thinks they can bone axers, almost everyone thinks boning slingers is just no problem. Glad to know its you, welcome to the forum.
kurtiebird
Inactive
posted 04-20-99 05:20 AM ET (US)     29 / 37       
Hey all, just wanted to interject - I asked Matty online yesterday (maimin_matty) if he started this thread, and he said yes. So yes, this is the official matty, due all the respect of world champion even if he isn't #1 on the charts

Kurtiebird
Veni Vidi Vici
kcochran@kc.net

matty
Big Daddy
posted 04-21-99 10:36 AM ET (US)     30 / 37       
I understand you guys are having a hard time understanding what i am trying to say. Basically that axer rushing is more effective because of a few very great differences then the slinger rush.
1)due to the fact you can start building clubbers while in stone means you can start the attack on the enemy MUCH earlier then a slinger rush(when tool attacking speed is very important)
2)axers do more damage. When villagers run from slingers you are basically screwed. You must build a scout to hunt down the villagers. With axers i quickly turn my attention to the enemies TC(keeping him in tool while i go bronze) and then his houses(you would be amazed at how frustrating this is for the enemy) and then hunt villagers
3)axers kill all other tool units besides boats and large packs of mini archers(which can be a waste of food for the enemy). Slingers can only effectively kill archers(in equal numbers)
4)an axer by itself is still an effective unit. A slinger by itself is one of the weakest units in all RoR.
5)i have played with many people of equal skill and slinger rushing just doesn't come in to play. Not because we haven't tried it....but because it doesn't work.
BurchaQ
Inactive
posted 04-24-99 04:42 PM ET (US)     31 / 37       
Nosoup. I, first of all, think that you must be 5 years or younger, because saying "you are an idiot" in place oftrying to justify your opinion is just childish. You started with great words, probably bigger than you are, and you said that you would "never" lose with a slinger rush. I, on the other hand, say that you can "never" win with a slinger rush aganist an intermediate or better opponent. It is, basically, because of a really simple fact that slinger rush could never work: because slingers are units used to kill archers. +2 attack aganist archers and +2 defense aganist missile are great bonuses. But these bonuses don't work aganist infantry of any kind. And, there is not an armour upgrade for slingers. Thus, slingers suck aganist, even, the stone clubmen. But they are great aganist archers: here is the point. Slinger is a very "strictly" designed unit, effective only aganist archers. That's why your slinger rush may never work.
I know how do you feel when you say: "Here, I got something new, I created it, it always works.". When I wrote first here, I hoped that you would show some self-respect and try tu justify your opinion. You just showed a "matty is an expert, I have no words to say him, but BurchaQ is not known for his skill on RoR, thus I may say whatever I like to, and then save myself from that inferiour situation that I fell in because I did not know what I was saying" reaction. I know that it is hard to have the mind of a 3 year old boy, and try to explain a rush that should never happen. I hope for your next reply that you should start showing some self respect and reply me as a civilized man would, without making comments about my mental capabilities.
Sergei_Makarov
Inactive
posted 04-24-99 09:14 PM ET (US)     32 / 37       
Sorry if I missed this, but what is a good number to send in the first wave?
Imperius_Jim
Inactive
posted 04-30-99 05:49 PM ET (US)     33 / 37       
Well, since my earlier contributions to this thread I've actually been on the receiving end of a few slinger rushes, only one of which really impacted my economy. I still believe that under the right conditions the ten slinger rush I talked about before is quite viable but I've come to believe there are three cardinal rules to an effective slinger rush:

1. Never attack with less than six slingers. The goal I strive for is ten slingers hitting the enemy at the ten-minute mark. This requires two barracks constructed by Tool with a third under construction.

2. NEVER send in the slingers without stone mining. I was hit by a Roman slinger rush (5 in the first wave) yesterday that I almost fought off with the force of my laughter due to the opponent not researching this tech. I had 30 real vills and 16 boats to his 18 vills / 6 boats. My woodcutters alone were nearly sufficient to deal with this, but I already had scout ships and made a few Axers to kill the slingers and tear down the Barracks.

3. For God's sake, use concentrated fire. Even in pairs, slingers don't deal enough damage quickly enough to justify even their cheap cost. While I modeled my "slush" after gutter-rat's "brush" there is a huge difference in the way the actual attack is carried out. In AoE, a pair of armored bowmen can deal a lot of damage before they get taken down. Slingers have to attack in packs and concentrate fire.

Final thoughts: ANY slinger rush is a situational thing. If you start a game PLANNING to slinger rush, you may as well be looking for a place to run when your rush fails and your opponent is all over you with Bronze units. Only when certain conditions are met is a slinger rush feasible.

Whether trying NoSoup's slinger strat or mine, your first actions on hitting tool should be queuing slingers at your multiple barracks followed immediately by the construction of a market at home and researching the stone mining tech. Only when that tech is done and you have at least six slingers should you move in.

Like Matty said, you're going to need a scout ASAP after the initial hit as your opponent is going to run if you're doing sufficient damage. If you have the food, it's worth making a second scout to look for additional fleeing vills while the first scout keeps tabs on the main group and the slingers close in.

BurchaQ
Inactive
posted 05-04-99 03:24 PM ET (US)     34 / 37       
It has been a long time, and still no answer from nosoup.
You have proven yourself nosoup, because you can only say "you are an idiot" and such things that we all know saying, but can't defend your opinion. I am sorry for you.
Conquesticus
Clubman
posted 07-11-02 03:16 PM ET (US)     35 / 37       
Had to get this slinger/axe rush debate back to the forefront.

"You've never hunted...until you've hunted...man." - Jesse Ventura - "The Body," "The Mind," US Navy SEAL, Professional Wrestler, Actor, X Minnesota Governor, Philosopher at large.
Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 07-11-02 07:57 PM ET (US)     36 / 37       
The bottom line is that none of these mean a damn thing if you don't get them on in time. If you can then great, some work better than others, if not then it makes no difference what you use, without speed, execution and being a machine forget it.

My Karma ran over my Dogma

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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 07-12-02 04:14 AM ET (US)     37 / 37       
I'm no RM player, SBE can prove that but I have watched the odd game. And from every game I have seen a axe/slinger rush, the guy pulling it off always forgets his economy and allow his opponent to reach bronze first and build CAs and Compies to counter them.

CenturionZ_1
HG Angel
AoEH Staff

'In heaven an angel is nobody in particular.' - George Bernard Shaw
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