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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » The Hall of Fame » Is hittite a good choice against shang in 1v1?
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Topic Subject:Is hittite a good choice against shang in 1v1?
Dave
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 00:29 AM ET (US)         
I was just comparing civ attributes and I was wondering ...

... if your opponent picks Shang, is it a good idea to pick hittite? Answers for both a wet map and a dry map.

If you think that hittite isn't a good choice, then what would you say is a good one (other than Shang also) and why?

[This message has been edited by Dave (edited 06-23-2000).]

AuthorReplies:
apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 01:44 AM ET (US)     1 / 23       
First, I'm going to assume multiplayer, post-patch. I think those are pretty much given.

I don't know the capabilities of Shang, because I haven't played them since the patch came out. However, I imagine they are still rather fast, faster than your average civ. They can't get away with four on berries, but with five on berries early on you can get a bit of a wood jump.

So, it, IMO, comes down to map size. First, Shang can hit a tool rush on Hittite. The larger the map, the better for the Hittite. On Large or above, both land and water, I would hand the advantage to the Hittite. Also depends on map type. On, say, Medit, it isn't that hard to find you. But on maybe rivers or an unusual conti map, you have room to hide.

Hittites are tool rush bait. No slingers. I'll admit that they have good bowmen, but shangs have slingers, and they start with 150 stone, so slingers don't end up costing a whole lot. Therefore, Hitties have to play hide-and-seek for the first fifteen minutes. Scout around you well, and don't scout for him, unless you plan on tool rushing as well. Try to head off any forward bases of his. Better to have your villies chase his that his slingers chase yours!

However, in Bronze, it becomes more of a pitched battle. You have Hittie CA/ST vs. Shang everything. Generally, there isn't a decisive advantage to either side on the land wars. However, there are the boat wars.

In the water, the Hittie has the clear advantage. A large enough fleet can take out a whole ship before their fleet gets in range. The Hittite really needs to chop wood like there's no tommorrow, because you need CA, Galleys, and a few ST for backup. I'd add maybe 3-4 guys on gold in late tool, and that's about it. Unless you're aiming for a group of ST.

The one thing the shang can't do is let it go to iron. If it goes to iron, he might as well run his underwear up a flagpole to use as a white flag. (With a little brown, I imagine.) Hittite iron is Eles, Cats, Scythes, HA, etc. No explanation needed here.

So, to answer your question, my hands down pre-patch answer is in no way take Hittite against Shang.

However, after the patch, things become rather more even. I wouldn't take Hittite myself, but it could be done.

I would take these civs, in something close to the order I'd take them in.

Land map:
1) Shang (this was a gimme)
2) Yammy/Assy
3) Hittite
4) Egypt
5) Persia (probably wouldn't because Persia is really dependant on their starting spot, but it's a thought)

Water map:
1) Shang
2) Minoa
3) Rome
4) Hittite
5) Yammy/Assy

Phoe fits on those two lists somewhere, but I don't know where as I haven't done any post-patch work with them.

Hope these ramblings help you some.

[This message has been edited by apocalypse77 (edited 06-23-2000).]

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 02:04 AM ET (US)     2 / 23       
Dave:

In a 1v1 I would never pick Hittite vs. Shang if they are equal players. Reason why is 1v1 are Tool wars and they are huge--HUGE Bronze wars. Only one player will Iron if any.

So to break it down by Age--Here is why Shang rocks Hittite in a 1v1:

Stone Age: Obviously Shang can have the upper hand by either Booming harder, or having more food earlier to Tool.

Tool Age: Shang should always beat Hittite to Tool with a stronger economy. If Shang feels like a quick game, a few rax with slingers booming will actually end the game. Hittite can do nothing to defend against a mass of Slingers -- nothing. Shang should also have more food to do a 2-3 Scout rush without affecting Bronze time. On wet maps, Shang should have more woodies than Hittite to hold their own on water. Shang has better walls also to end any Tool attack, or early Bronze attack - when walls matter.

Bronze Age: It comes down to the strongest econ to end the game. Shang should have the best results coming out of Tool, and come to Bronze with every war unit at their disposal. Shang's econ should give them the edge to boom harder, giving more wood = victory on sea. With more villas, Shang should be able to mass more army than Hittite. And Shang is the most flexible civ in Bronze.

I would pick Shang vs. Shang, or maybe Yams on a water map. Shangs are too fast and too versitile not to pick them in a 1v1.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 02:58 AM ET (US)     3 / 23       
Wow, I didn't know hittite doesn't get clubmen. Isn't that supposed to be the best counter vs slingers in tool?
vmay
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 09:46 AM ET (US)     4 / 23       
wedsaz,

from my experience there is no counter to upgraded slingers besides reasonably large bronze army: CAs + STs.

I had a game recently when I was able to mass about 12-15 slingers at about 16 min point in opponent's (hittie) town. He went bronze and I did not. Those slingers were leveling his town like crazy. He managed to produce about 5 CA total (1-2 at a time) and fighting them I lost just one or two slingers. I added couple scouts to the land to hunt villies and had all of them by mark 24:00. He won sea with couple of his scout ships (he did not upgrade), but who cares? He resigned with me never going to bronze. good game.

In another game I had problem with my minoan compies vs massed roman slingers. I managed to add ST and that saved some small number of my compies (we were fighting approximately 1:1 sligers:compies). Another good game

apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 11:35 AM ET (US)     5 / 23       
You uh...didn't really answer his question. Clubbers are probably the best defense against slingers. However, it is hard to get a mass of them when your town is being attacked, unless you were making at a few beforehand. I would think that most slinger attacks should have at least a few armored clubbers, mostly for buildings and other clubbers.

I still think that the tool attack is best utilized with a variety of units.

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 12:28 PM ET (US)     6 / 23       
wedsaz:

What I was trying to say is that if a Shang wants an all out Tool war, and masses Slingers non-stop out of 2-5 rax --it is over. Hittite clubbers can't stop a continued mass of Slingers.

vmay
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 12:35 PM ET (US)     7 / 23       
hmm... I thought I did....
I said that nobody counters slingers

Actually I dont know about clubbers, I never saw anybody
countering slingers with clubbers. Do they get any bonus vs. slingers? I did not know that...

I agree about combination of units. I usually go for 3-4 axemen (produced while tooling and upgraded later), slingers, and scouts. My axemen usually die but by then there is nobody left to fight back.

Regards

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 04:05 PM ET (US)     8 / 23       
Slingers in small numbers can be stopped by clubbers, since slingers have no armor and clubbers do melee damage.
 
Large numbers of slingers can be stopped the same way ye olde assy bowman rush was stopped: run away! By the time he finds you again, you can be in bronze ripping his tool army apart with a few cavs. (just ask HonoredMule)
 
Vmay, it seems to me that both you and your opponents were trying to counter slingers with bronze archers, even though slingers are designed to kill archers. Throw in pretty much any bronze melee unit and the slingers go down real fast.
vmay
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 04:30 PM ET (US)     9 / 23       
mmm..... what's melee?

I am sorry, english is my second language (well, actually -- third). I dont understand the word.

As to the running away -- this is where the combination of slingers - scouts hits in. In that particular game terrain was really favorable for me. I killed half of his villies with slingers, he ran with the other half from my scouts around small forest (nowhere else to run) back to the same slingers.

I do agree that running from slingers can be effective. I remember game with RomanGladius (who is much better than me). I rushed with slingers in his town (if you can say "rush" at 17 min point) but did not pursue him. Put couple towers (I was choson) and occupied his town. He regroupped and rebuilt and killed me in bronze.

I know about the slinger purpose of killing archers. It was just kind of strange psychologically to see them killing _bronze_ archers.

SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 04:39 PM ET (US)     10 / 23       
Yams are the best Waper map civs and Shangs the best on Hills...Fight Fire With Fire (a good and old Metallica song)
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 04:54 PM ET (US)     11 / 23       
vmay:
Well, "melee" is actually borrowed from french. It's used in english to define a battle of short-ranged units all mixed up. Melee units are units equipped to do well in such mixed short-ranged battles. So "melee" units are be "short-ranged" units just like "ranged" or "missile" units are long-ranged units. btw, english is my 2nd language.
 
Yeah, scout rushes are kind of hard to stop. However, the larger and more complex the tool army, the greater the chance that the victim will have time to bronze before you can get your money's worth. A slinger/scout rush is risky, how much resources do you have to spend on that? Let's say 10 slingers, a nice round number, plus stone mining. Add 2 scouts with their pit upgrades. That's a total of 925f 150s, or 875f 150s for yammy. Then you need to train all those, so maybe 2 extra barracks for 250w, and over a minute of training time. If your opponent had all that, he can be halfway to bronze by the time you hit him. That means he just needs to survive for a minute before he can train cavs/camels.
 
Slingers with stone mining and bronze shield might kill bronze archers, yes. They were supposed to, even though I've never seen them be very effective.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 05:15 PM ET (US)     12 / 23       
SuN_Cam_Popov:
Yamato boats are only 30% stronger, while minoan boats are 96% stronger. Minoan also has camels and better compies. Minoan is better on "waper" maps.
 
Shang's weakness is that it has no strengths. In any given time frame at least one other civ can defeat it.
 
Picking the enemy's favorite civ is to hand him victory, as he knows it well. Don't fight on the enemy's own turf - find the civ he can't defend against.
Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 05:28 PM ET (US)     13 / 23       
wedsaz:

No offense to HonoredMule intended, but I heard that he rushed you with 3 slingers...in Bronze. I hope you were able to fend off an attack like that. I agree with Blitz. If the slinger rush has numbers and is age appropriate the rushee is dead...end of story. As far as out running the slingers, without the wheel upgrade in Bronze...well...you don't.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-23-00 06:08 PM ET (US)     14 / 23       
Sumerian_Leper:
Both HonoredMule and I were slow that game. However, although his rush could have been faster, my bronze time could have been improved by as much.
 
If I had wings and palmed feet, I'd fly south for the winter. If a rusher can mass slingers before you can start bronzing, he could have bronzed and cav rushed the hiccups out of you instead, so you were dead anyway.
 
I was persian in that game vs HonoredMule, so I had neither the wheel nor the yassy speed bonus. You don't need the wheel to outrun slingers. Even if by some chance they were fast enough to keep up, you can split your villies but he can't split his slingers. You might lose 4-5 but you'll bronze first and whoop him.
 
So, slinger rushes are only much good if your opponent intends on staying in tool age for a little while. They're too slow and inflexible to win vs an early bronze.
 
Every strat has a counter-strat, every civ a counter-civ, every opponent a weakness. Find and exploit it, and victory is yours.
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 06-23-00 06:50 PM ET (US)     15 / 23       
Clubmen aren't gonna stop a massed slinger attack. Besides, the Shang can start with clubbers and transition to slingers. Clubbers with armor can ignore defensive clubmen.

The only map I'd pick Hittite over Shang in 1v1 large is Medit. And that is a very big maybe. Tool wars rule 1v1, Shang is first there, Hittite is slow and has no slingers. Case closed.

BTW I'm not afraid to take Shang Iron against Hittite's, considering that the Shang is probably going to get there a lot faster. Fire galleys can wipe the seas pretty quick and scythes are not that bad against HA/cats. Now, if the Hittite gets there at the same time with the same number of peons, well, you're screwed. But that should never happen.

SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 06-24-00 11:41 AM ET (US)     16 / 23       
Wedsaz: You really think Minos navy is better? LOL! You gotta be kidding me...
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 06-24-00 12:54 PM ET (US)     17 / 23       
Heh, Yamato boats kinda own Minoan ones because the Minoan will be in Stone

Same theory with Shang wedsaz, sure your Hittites might have an awesome army but not if I am in Tool with +2/+2 clubbers walking towards your woodpit and you are 75% tool

SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 06-24-00 01:56 PM ET (US)     18 / 23       
Anyway, Shangs goes to tool faster or the same time but with more food due to cheaper villies (like it or not)...

Yams gets to tool faster than Minos and owns 'em on sea cuz of faster walking villies for more wood and better navy and faster tool anyway.

[This message has been edited by SuN_Cam_Popov (edited 06-24-2000).]

apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 06-24-00 02:46 PM ET (US)     19 / 23       
I agree that yams can outspeed Minoa to Tool, and then get a few boats on him early. But remember that the Yammie boats have travelling distance.

Therefore, I would give Yams the advantage on Medit. On conti, the travel distance starts to get longer. On most other maps, it can even be diffucult just to FIND their other docks. Especally if they've docked in several different rivers. Sure, go ahead and tool fast and spend 700 wood to shut down maybe 25% of my fishing ops.

SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 06-24-00 03:14 PM ET (US)     20 / 23       
Well, I'd build docks ON my ennemy as Yams So no distance travel: btw, forgot that Yams got faster walking villies so they can run into the Minos town and simply outrun their villies right after for better explo... The thing is, Yams can make a nice combo (Land/Sea) attack with good units on both places: this is why they are the best water maps civ when played correctly.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-24-00 05:03 PM ET (US)     21 / 23       
What shang saves on food from their villies, minoan saves on wood from their FBs. They can put more villies on food (and less on wood) to tool at the same time as shang with an equal econ, and still win the boat war because of their warboat bonus.
 
Popov, yassy villie speed doesn't change much for woodcutting until you chop a LOT of wood, if you build wood pits. Meanwhile, minoan's FB bonus gives you 15w for every FB you build, so if you make 10 FBs that's 150w, 20 FBs is 300w, ... So unless you run to tool so fast you don't spend on FBs, minoan can have the uppwer hand if played right. The villie speed must be useful for exploring, forward building and such though, if the opponent didn't dock-block and house-wall (and stone-wall in tool) as he should have vs yam.
 
Apocalypse77, good point about distance. On large or smaller medit, I agree yam could probably get the jump on minoan. However, most of my opponents on medit (back when I could play ) insisted on gigantic or at least huge, so the distance became greater and yammy just couldn't hit that early. So I didn't see many yammys, and the few I did see usually went down pretty fast.
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 06-25-00 05:36 PM ET (US)     22 / 23       
Wedsaz, if you build FBs during stone then I just beat you to tool by 2 minutes instead of 1 min. By then ur docks will be all covered...
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-26-00 04:01 AM ET (US)     23 / 23       
RomanGladius:
LoL! If you don't make FBs in stone or at least while tooling, minoan will have more food and more villies than you, and can simply build a fleet at new docks. With his larger navy, he'll sink yours in no time, cover *your* docks, and start pumping FBs again. Next thing you know, you're still in tool with most of your production power having been spent on a now sunk navy, while minoan is in bronze cav rushing you. Try again.
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