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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Scenario Design » Problem with victory conditions
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Topic Subject:Problem with victory conditions
swordpriest
Inactive
posted 10-12-99 00:35 AM ET (US)         
I want to have player 1 win the scenario by destroying two enemy town centers (a semi-fixed force campaign without requiring clean-up/chasing down every last vill).

So, I go to individual conditions, set 1, destroy, set object, town center 1, set 2, destroy, set object town center 2.

But, when I test the scenario, destroying the town centers does not end the game with victory, I still have to kill all of the enemies.

Any suggestions as to what I'm doing wrong?

Thanks!

AuthorReplies:
Eggman
Clubman
posted 10-12-99 03:13 AM ET (US)     1 / 11       
Check the global victory conditions to make sure that the checkmark is not back in the "conquest" box. Even if you swear you removed it, go back and look again. A bug in the scenario editor seems to be that global victory is reset to "conquest" nearly every time you tinker with any individual victory conditions. Your victory conditions won't work right if there are also global ones active.
Elaikases
Clubman
posted 10-12-99 10:09 AM ET (US)     2 / 11       
Where should the global victory be set at in this example?

Khaleb
Clubman
posted 10-12-99 02:14 PM ET (US)     3 / 11       
Any self-defined one (not standard) should do it. They are overruled (concerning code) by the individual VCs anyway (in theory, but in fact you never know before testing).
Feyd
Clubman
posted 10-12-99 02:26 PM ET (US)     4 / 11       
Well I've had the same kind of problems with individual VCs, and I never solved them satisfactorily.
Even when you set global victory to personalize, and there tick off every option, it seems that "conquest" remains as the default VC. But I have played one scenario where conquest was disabled for good. Dunno how it is done...
What I have resigned myself to is add another civilisation with a tower hidden in a corner of the map where the player will never find it. It effectively disables "conquest" even if it's not very elegant...
As for the fact that your VCs don't work, it's not linked with "conquest" : remember that victory is achieved when EVERY player in a team has completed their individual VC, or when then team has completed the global VC.
So I can only two causes for your problem :
1) Your player has an ally with different VCs. In that case, just to be sure, a) set to the ally an individual VC that it cannot fail to meet b) check diplomacy and "victory as a team".
2) A bug. Individual VCs are thoroughly bugged. Even worse, they sometimes work, sometimes don't, with the same scenario. Or depending on when they are achieved : they will work at the start of the game, but will be ignored after some time into the game... Especially concerned is the destroy a # of units VC : avoid it at all cost !
In my scenario "evasion" for instance, "bring object to area" didn't work, at least not reliably. I had to use "bring object to object". In "Legions from Hell" I just discovered that the VC for the CP opponent did not always worked : I'd had no pb with that scenario, but last week a friend of mine played it, and when the CP met its VC (build one wonder) the game did not end. That scenario had been extensively play-tested, and still...

So, as a conclusion, although individual VCs are a great fixture (and, hey, ES : we also need individual GAME LOST conditions !!, try tweaking global conditions to suit your needs as much as you can.
To illustrate this, let's take my "Legions from Hell" scenario : I didn't standard VC because there's an artifact and a ruin also. The CP starts the game with an artifact, and there's no way the player can get at it before the 2000 years mark. In the same way, the player is not supposed to win by just discovering the ruins. But there was a way around it : a portion of the map is off-limit to the player and the various CP... Putting there a gaia ruins and a gaia artifact would have enabled me to use standard VC. And the scenario wouldn't be bugged !

Elaikases
Clubman
posted 10-12-99 05:58 PM ET (US)     5 / 11       
So, if the player has a computer ally, then that could be causing the victory conditions not to work correctly. So, what needs to be done is to disable any computer allies (at least for a scenario where they are not critical).

That was really interesting.

As an aside, one way to avoid the 2000 year clock on artifacts is to use war chests instead.

Ruins, though, are hard, without putting in extra or hidden Gaia ruins that are not accessable.

Eggman
Clubman
posted 10-12-99 06:59 PM ET (US)     6 / 11       
Elaikases: Set the global checkmark to "Custom", and then leave all of the other options under custom unchecked.

Feyd: Your "#1" statement in your first post is incorrect. If I am allied with a computer player, their VCs in no way effect mine UNLESS you check the "allied victory box". Unless the designer is fooling around with allied victory a computer player's VCs will not interfere with those of the human player, so your proposed solution on that score will actually make matters worse. In fact, unless "allied victory" is in play, the human player will generally lose when their allied computer player meets their VCs. To see "allied victory" working properly, check out my 3rd scenario in my Mongol contest entry, entitled "Twilight in the Imperial City". I had to spend a great deal of time figuring out the relationships between the human player and their cpu allies, so you can trust me on this one.

For the VCs you recommend that people never use, like "Bring Object to Area" and "Destroy # of Objects", I used both of these numerous times in my Mongol campaign (another shameless plug, I know). They always worked without a hitch, and while I agree that the scen editor is not the most bug-free out there, I have always found these to be amongst the safest ones to use. If you can't get these to work right, there must be some other problem in the scenario that affects them... it would not be the VCs themselves. I would also recommend asking Ingo van Thiel for advice, as I am sure he has gone over every VC in much more detail than I have (or ever will, with AoK out).

Feyd
Clubman
posted 10-12-99 10:28 PM ET (US)     7 / 11       
Eggman, I agree 100% with your first point : if you understood anything different when you read me, then my mistake for not expressing myself clearly, I was just saying the same thing as you.
As for the second point, although I had never posted a scenario before (I have already explained why) believe me I do have a lot of experience with AoE's scenario editor (hundreds of hours), and I maintain that weird things happen when using individual VCs. I have used them in almost every scenario I have designed, and although most of the time they seem to work fine, I still have encountered many unexpainable problems. "Bring Object to Area" I considered "safe" until a few weeks ago. When I created and play-tested "Evasion", it worked fine (4 units to be brought to a corner of the map). Then a player reported a problem : he had fulfilled the VC and still not won. So I checked it by testing the scenario with the 4 units in that corner at the start and there victory was instantaneous (which it should be). So I thought the player mistaken.
That was one year ago using AoE.
Then I replayed it a month ago before submitting it to the granary. And lo, it didn't work! When I used the same testing method, it didn't work either! So I changed the VC to "bring object to object" and it worked. Why ? I haven't got a clue...

One last thing : computer allies always use "allied victory" between themselves, whether it is checked or unchecked. I guess that there lies the source of many individual VCs not working for the CP : 2 CP start as neutral or enemy, allied victory unchecked, then in the course of the game change to "ally" and there goes your VC down the drain...
BTW, has anyone found a way of having CPs maintaining a neutral stance ?

swordpriest
Inactive
posted 10-12-99 10:31 PM ET (US)     8 / 11       
Thanks everyone!

I deleted the "allied victory" and changed the computer ally from allied to neutral. After that, the scenario worked without a hitch -- just as designed.

It is pretty simple (and, unfortunately, both the weakest in a strong set of scenarios and the first one), but much better than it was.

I'm pleased with it now. A semi-fixed force (i.e. you start with extra units, but not quite enough to do the job, so you have to pay attention to other things). Before, you had a lot fewer units, had to survive computer generated rushes, wall off a little, and then build and conquer.

Now, you are likely to march off to war, find your home under attack several times, but play off the conflicts faster, and without having to hunt down the last vill and building.

I think it is an improvement, but I need to think on it some.

At least the changed victory conditions work!

Thanks again.

Eggman
Clubman
posted 10-13-99 02:24 AM ET (US)     9 / 11       
Feyd: Just to reinforce your own point, I was replaying my own Mongol campaign today, and had an interesting thing. I had set it up so that the human player will lose if a particular unit is lost. I had checked this over many times before sending it in, and knew it worked. But today, when I was playing it again I lost this unit and nothing happened. I don't believe bugs are totally random, otherwise the game would be unplayable as you would never know what was going to happen. Every time I have run into problems in the editor there was always a reason. I just want to encourage designers to never give up on their plans because I have always managed to work out whatever difficulties the editor may throw at me. Amazing things are possible if you just want to take the time to figure it out.
Bl4cKst0rM
Clubman
posted 12-23-17 02:12 PM ET (US)     10 / 11       
Comment Deleted

[This message has been edited by Bl4cKst0rM (edited 04-13-2018 @ 09:06 AM).]

shellshockers
Banned
posted 11-01-18 02:48 AM ET (US)     11 / 11       
Thank you for sharing this cool and interesting topic

removed spam links /Fisk

[This message has been edited by Fisk (edited 11-02-2018 @ 03:28 AM).]

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