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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Question to Suppiluliuma( Though, everybody else, please, butt in as you wish! )
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Topic Subject:Question to Suppiluliuma( Though, everybody else, please, butt in as you wish! )
Draco_Wolfgand
Clubman
posted 09-24-19 05:43 PM ET (US)         
I recall Suppiluliuma often getting upset whenever any mod was suggested that would alter this game to become more similar to AoK. I also remember him bringing up he does not watches Spirit of the Law videos, specifically because they are too AoK focused. So, where I am getting at here is... I am getting this vibe, Suppiluliuma, that you prefer AoE to AoK. Is that so, and if so, why?

And for the others, which of the two games do you happen to prefer? I probably prefer AoK, mostly because it feels more generally... "Well rounded." Including several units( Such as the Huskarl, the Cataphract, and the Genoese Longbowman ) that are meant to play around with the typical counter systen, make you think before betting on the typical "Infantry>Cavalrt>Archers>Infantry" That people tend to fall into in RTS. Although, that doesnt mean that I think that it is better then AoE in every way. For a example, I am rather fond of the Centurions of this game, and a bit sad that there is no clear counterpart to it on the original except debatably for the Teutonic Knight.
AuthorReplies:
The_Patriarck
Clubman
posted 09-26-19 12:31 PM ET (US)     1 / 21       
The words I have about AOK can not be expressed in public, but I will say that the game is garbage, as in it doesn't function properly; they tried to add formations to game, but it only made units even dumber then in AOE1, IMO. Also, the way units move in AOK is just weird, like their graphics don't actually line up with the direction they are heading. Another issue with the game is "Castles", I know they're historically accurate, but they make the game horribly centered on defensive gameplay. I have played Stronghold and loved it, but AOK does not work for me as a viable medieval RTS.
I like AOE1 for many reasons, one of which is that it is set in the Ancient times, ya have ta love those days. As for the balancing problems, I'm fixing those myself in the 5thLegacy mod.

[This message has been edited by The_Patriarck (edited 09-26-2019 @ 12:32 PM).]

Kataphraktoi
Clubman
posted 09-26-19 12:57 PM ET (US)     2 / 21       
I imagine most visiting AoEH would naturally prefer AoE, but I find it a very difficult to comprehend preference. AoK has improved the game in so many objective ways such as smooth pathfinding and the like, even the unit roster makes a ton more sense and the balancing on blackmsith techs is good too.

However I dont even consider AoK to be a particularly good game in the first place, I only stick with it because the devs lost sight of what a good game should look like and made the nonsense that is AoM\AoE3 and the rest of the industry when into sharp decline around that time as well. Triple A garbage is the norm now.

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
Draco_Wolfgand
Clubman
posted 09-26-19 05:45 PM ET (US)     3 / 21       
... Now I am kind of curious about what is wrong about AoM... As it is the game that got me into strategy games, and my favourite one out of the "Age of" series :/
ephestion
Clubman
posted 09-26-19 05:48 PM ET (US)     4 / 21       
AOE3 I can understand being disliked. AOM on the other hand.


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
Basse
Clubman
posted 09-27-19 02:45 AM ET (US)     5 / 21       
I disliked the pop-system and the lack of a grid in aom. Felt weird coming from aoe and Aok where every unit takes 1 pop to a system where some take more than others. I still enjoyed aom, just not as much as the other two. Played aoe3 too, but the gameplay had changed too much from the old games imo.
Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 09-28-19 06:15 AM ET (US)     6 / 21       
they tried to add formations to game, but it only made units even dumber then in AOE1, IMO. Also, the way units move in AOK is just weird, like their grapyhics don't actually line up with the direction they are heading.
I don't know for sure, but maybe this is the price to pay for what is actually some of the smoothest grouped unit movement and pathfinding in any game from that era?

Literally any other game you will have your units constantly bumpin into each other when you order a series of group moves until they form a kind of trail, which is really inefficient for engaging the enemy. The way AoK retains formations even while moving means the player doesn't have to micromanage encounters so much but can trust that their swordsmen won't for instance walk into a line of arrow fire one at a time.

Another great example is Spirit of the Law's experiment with trade carts here. In the end he managed to constipate his trade route but I think the way the carts handled collisions for the lighter obstacle courses is unparalleled by any other RTS engine at the time. Even later games such as Empire Earth struggle massively with this kind of thing (that game also has an example of a bad implementation of formations, as units break the formation the moment you order them to move and require a lot of time to get back into it). And comparing it to something like StarCraft? That game could barely make a Dragoon walk up a staircase on its own.

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris
The_Patriarck
Clubman
posted 09-29-19 07:08 PM ET (US)     7 / 21       
Yeah, Dragoons were terrible. Maybe AOK had the best pathfinding/formation of it's time. But I didn't play AOK/AOC until about 8 years ago, by that time I had already played plenty of AOE1, AOE3, Stronghold, and C&C3.

I wonder when Suppiluliuma will respond to this thread?
PhatFish
Mr. Beta
posted 10-01-19 10:09 AM ET (US)     8 / 21       
AoM was and is great also on old ESO.

AoK is superior in almost every way to AoE, save the historical setting... RoR was the first Age game I played, and I just liked it so much I preferred to play it instead of AoK when that came around a year later. Editor wise, I found triggers to be quite overwhelming back then.

Speaking for Suppy, we support and like "the underdog" just a bit more I guess.



Kataphraktoi
Clubman
posted 10-13-19 05:50 PM ET (US)     9 / 21       
Some bullet points that come to mind why I dislike AoM having replayed it a bit lately:

Downscaled gameplay. AoK had 200 pop and AoM I am not sure, but it sure feels puny. I want larger armies not smaller micromanagement affairs

Special abilities on autofire...now if I was going to play a micromanagement game warcraft3 does it much better since you decide when a unit uses a special abilities (extremely mundane abilities in WC3 are on autocast though)

The gameflow is weird...you boom up to trade and everything on the map becomes meaningless outside of your trade route and farms, and you spam units infinitely then....might be different in multiplayer, I only did singleplayer.

Related to the above...Stone and gold and wood in AoK made some parts of the map more strategicly important. This needed more fleshing out of, not being removed. Too many resources are infinite, everything except wood actually

Graphics are mud. I tried some mods and stuff to improve it but nope. The units bleed into each other and its very difficult to perceive what is on the screen. Almost all 3D RTS from around this time look like garbage though, so AoM looks alright in comparison to say EE.



One thing AoM improves on is Town Centers. Its a good improvement to be limited to certain spots and adds good strategic value to the map.


There might be other points but thats all I recall at the moment

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
Draco_Wolfgand
Clubman
posted 10-13-19 07:37 PM ET (US)     10 / 21       
Yeah, part of the thing of Age of Mythology is that, late game, population efficiency is more important then resource efficiency .

Technically, the game actually doesnt have a "hard" population cap, at least that I noticed: What there is... Is a limit of how many housing buildings you can have at any given point in time. Most civilizations can have up to 10 housing buildings providing 10 population space each. But there is more: Town Centers also provide more population by existing, quite a bit in fact. I believe it was 20 each. But, because of the settlement system, the amount of Town Centers you can have is also effectivelly limited. Very rarely you will have more then 2-3 Town Centers at any given time, though it is theoretically possible to have as many as the Settlements you can claim for yourself( Thus further increasing their strategical importance ).

But here is the crux of the matter: While it is theoretically possible, in games involving lots of players in a very large map, for you to hit over 200 base population, there is also the fact that most military units on this game occupy multiple population units. Somewhere between 2 to 5, to be precise, with more powerfull units occupiyng more population. All of this, has the side effect of making naval combat even more annoiyng then in the original game( As managing your population is much more of a priority, and thus, deciding on how many population slots do you want to dedicate to your navy compared to your land army becomes crucial ). And yes, your armies do tend to be smaller then they were in AoK, where you would very rarely hit the population cap at all( Based on my experience at least )
ephestion
Clubman
posted 10-13-19 08:34 PM ET (US)     11 / 21       
AOM caps at 300. I won a few games by holding all settlements and in total they capped at 300.


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 10-20-19 04:06 PM ET (US)     12 / 21       
I don't think AoK is a terrible game. It is actually very good, but it definitively is the least favorite of the ES games to me, why?

Well I think what makes me most unhappy of AoK is that, even if objectively is way more balanced than AoE, the community thinks of it as the definitive AoE, as a beacon everyone should aim to reach, as the pinnacle of perfection, while the rest of AoE games are considered subpar. Secondarily, the historic period.

So yeah first many fans opinions and second the middle ages are why I very much prefer AoE.

Regarding ES games my rank is this 1-AoE, 2-AoM, 3-AoEIII (it is even more rounded than AoK, even if that butthurts some people, lol) and finally 4- AoK
Mazeppa
Clubman
posted 11-19-19 03:19 AM ET (US)     13 / 21       
The gameflow is weird...you boom up to trade and everything on the map becomes meaningless outside of your trade route and farms, and you spam units infinitely then....might be different in multiplayer, I only did singleplayer.

Related to the above...Stone and gold and wood in AoK made some parts of the map more strategicly important. This needed more fleshing out of, not being removed. Too many resources are infinite, everything except wood actually
While I agree with your other points, this point in particular is one I disagree with..... In AoM, market trade and farms are among the most inefficient way to get gold and food respectively... In multiplayer, seeing a player build farms early in the game is a big indicator that he's bad at the game, unless he's playing a god that has farm bonuses.

Even getting villagers to a food source halfway across the map is more efficient to get food than using farms.. and so gold and hunting sources are strategically important in AoM; you have to interact with the map, and raiding your opponent's sources/denying him from accessing them is a reliable way to win.

Some stuff I liked from AoM was the settlement thing and the tower cap restriction, which gives you an incentive to use them wisely instead of placing 100 towers on your city like I've seen some players abuse in AoE and AoK.

But I hated the editor in AoM.. it lacked a lot of things, and even adding the stuff that players in AoM heaven made, the editor is still complete garbage...


I also feel AoK was so overrated that it was ridiculous, and I always thought EDMW was so much better, in nearly every aspect... I still remember how people were saying AoK was the only game that had ballistics... yet EDMW also had them. *shrugs*

[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 11-19-2019 @ 03:20 AM).]

Draco_Wolfgand
Clubman
posted 11-20-19 04:33 PM ET (US)     14 / 21       
Sorry if the phrasing is rude, but: What IS EDMW?

I am NOT a pro player, but I would argue there exist situations on which you might want to build farms relatively early into the Classical Age.( Like, two to three minutes after hitting it. ) Farms are very easy to protect, after all, so turtling players will probably shift to then soon just not to lose too many villagers. However, I will point out this: The Egyptians have the ability to build farms as early as the Archaic age. Dont use this ability. Ever .
Mazeppa
Clubman
posted 12-11-19 08:55 AM ET (US)     15 / 21       
Sorry if the phrasing is rude, but: What IS EDMW?
I'm one month late, but I'll answer that regardless.

EDMW is short of Empires: Dawn of the Modern World, which had the best scenario editor I've ever seen in any game. It's an RTS game that spans from Medieval to WW2; it has only 8 civs in total, but every civ is different, and has unique units (no civ had the same units), technologies, civ powers, bonuses etc.. and unique special abilities in some of those units. It's a great game, imo.

The only big critique I have with EDMW was that Koreans could dominate the game very early, such that nearly every strong player you encounter in multiplayer were Korea; it also didn't help that iirc, it had a tech allowing you to select one patch/gold/stone mine and get 65536 resources from it - though to be fair, exploiting that depends the type of game you're playing.. in action, only 6 peasants could gather from a resource, whereas that doubles in empire builder mode.

A small critique was that it didn't have snow in the editor, but many scenario designers like Gordon Farrell managed to use other stuff in the editor to simulate a cold atmosphere.
I am NOT a pro player, but I would argue there exist situations on which you might want to build farms relatively early into the Classical Age.( Like, two to three minutes after hitting it. ) Farms are very easy to protect, after all, so turtling players will probably shift to then soon just not to lose too many villagers. However, I will point out this: The Egyptians have the ability to build farms as early as the Archaic age. Dont use this ability. Ever .
Actually, yes.. that could be true; like, when your main food source is exhausted... in that case, you could build up one or two farms to get an ample supply of food at least, while your main food gatherers travel to a new food source.

And for Ra players, farms can be advantageous, with a god power that can give 300% bonus on farms and a pharaoh that has greater empowering ability... but other than Ra players, relying on farms as the main food source in other civs is a bad idea in AoM.

[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 12-11-2019 @ 08:58 AM).]

Draco_Wolfgand
Clubman
posted 12-13-19 08:23 AM ET (US)     16 / 21       
I might check it out. Although, I took the liberty of snooping around the wiki about this game( As I usually do with a game before purchasing it, to know whether it is "my thing" ), and it seems Ballistics is actually excusive to the English, as in opposed to something that any civilization can research. Not sure how I feel about that.

I do like it when games get out of their way to make each civilization on it as unique as possible, though( Which is one of the reasons why I like Age of Mythology better then the other games on the franchise )

EDIT: Also, I originally considered suggesting adding, to the French, a bonus that causes all of their units to move faster, for as long as they are moving away from a enemy unit within their line of sight. But then I realised that could be a bit offensive.

[This message has been edited by Draco_Wolfgand (edited 12-13-2019 @ 08:26 AM).]

Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 12-14-19 04:16 AM ET (US)     17 / 21       
Lol, gottem!

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris
Mazeppa
Clubman
posted 12-14-19 10:26 PM ET (US)     18 / 21       
I might check it out. Although, I took the liberty of snooping around the wiki about this game( As I usually do with a game before purchasing it, to know whether it is "my thing" ), and it seems Ballistics is actually excusive to the English, as in opposed to something that any civilization can research. Not sure how I feel about that.
Actually, the English get it inherently, but the Koreans can get it from their armory, but it can only be used on one unit type (including towers) in each match, but some siege units don't need them because they have that fire-spread radius (e.g. culverin, fire carts). Can't remember if the French had them... but I do know Koreans get them as well.

But a China civ with ballistics would've been OP as hell in EDMW, because they have that siege crossbow with 800 attack that could kill almost anything in one hit. Imagine that thing with ballistics!! And it can even hit fairly well even without it, because of its fast single projectile. Thank god its rate of fire is lower.
I do like it when games get out of their way to make each civilization on it as unique as possible, though( Which is one of the reasons why I like Age of Mythology better then the other games on the franchise )
It's been a while since I've played it, but I remember there being quite a lot of differences between EDMW and the age-of series, aside from unique techs, units etc..

Upgrades for instance, could be used on only one unit type, but when you advance to the next age, you get new upgrades. You could upgrade troops to more advanced troops as you advance each age (e.g. Koryo Spearman to Choson Trident), but not all upgrades are better, e.g. Koryo Spearman has a greater attack rate than Choson Trident, despite having less attack or HP, and are even better in martial arts.

University Techs (e.g. Ki Hap, rebellion etc) work a bit like God Powers in Age of Mythology, but all civs had a tech for healing everything: Esprit du Corps (France), Royal Proclamation (England), Emperor's blessing (China), and King's encouragement (Korea).. (French units can auto-heal a little as well, when idle) but aside that, all the other techs are different in each civ.

But in the editor, there's even more on this stuff, like upgrades that allow units to scale cliffs, walk thru forests, grant conversion immunity, as well as techs not even in any of the civs, but you get to use them in scenarios.


Oh, also.. I wouldn't trust Empires heaven on the civ overviews btw, as they didn't do a great job at it and it's incomplete.. E.g. ch'ing musketters, siege crossbow, chu-ko-nu and even the song/ming/manchu spearmen are missing in China; many units are missing in England and Korea's unit info; France has nothing! and they forgot Royal Proclamation in England's civ overview..

[This message has been edited by Mazeppa (edited 12-15-2019 @ 00:50 AM).]

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 12-29-19 02:00 PM ET (US)     19 / 21       
Funny how they asked me and my reply has been largely ignored xD...i hope that is a good thing?
Cataphract887
Clubman
posted 01-09-20 12:47 PM ET (US)     20 / 21       
I almost replied to your earlier comment. I thought people loving AoK too much is a weak reason not to like it yourself, but I do agree with disliking fanboys...sometimes I run into a person who thinks the AoK ES campaigns are works a genius and that makes my blood boil a bit haha

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 01-10-20 05:46 AM ET (US)     21 / 21       
I heard rumors that they actually recruited some designers from this heaven to make the campaigns for AoK. While they're far from excellent by today's standards I'll still say the campaigns shipped with AoK were a big step from the stuff that came with AoE1, which were mostly glorified RM maps.

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris
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