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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » The Hall of Fame » Do scythes really waste siege?
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Topic Subject:Do scythes really waste siege?
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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 06-25-01 03:27 PM ET (US)         
I just played a cool 2v2 DM game with Ace where we pinned Ace down to one corner and I was trying to finish him off. I was Egypt and I was preparing a launch of 40+ scythes. But one obstacle remained, his 20 helpoli suround by towers.

I launched the attack and concentrated and towers and then when the helpoli started attacking I sent the majority after them. I watched to my horror all 40 scythes die to only 5 helpoli and 2 towers. Even when my ally knocked the towers with cats, my scythes still got mauled by the helepoli.

I want you lot to do some serious testing and see if scythes really do waste heles when it si 3v1.


CenturionZ_1
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AuthorReplies:
AliensTookElvis
Clubman
posted 06-26-01 07:08 AM ET (US)     1 / 55       
I havnīt done any actual testing on this but I play Egypt and Minoa a lot and have run into and used some helepolisī in my days.

I would say that scythes kill helepolis if in a 3 to 1 ratio, but only up to a certain point. When you reach "critical mass" of heles nothing other than cats can take them out cost effectively (this might not be true if they are shang heles which should be a lot easier to kill).

Yeah sure some might say that scythes cost no gold and therefore you can just flood him till the cows come home, but if he has a group of 20+ heles your scythes wont be able to touch him (unless you get him while they are moving or shooting on buildings).

Your situation: 40 egyptian scythes should definately manage to kill 5 heles and 2 towers. Even if the towers where ballistatowers the scythes should win that one. You said he had 20 hele surrounded by towers, are you sure these other heles didnt help in the mauling? Otherwise you may have had to many scythes attacking the towers while the heles were shoting at them. If you had most of the scythes attacking the 5 heles first, and after that the towers, you should have been able to take him down.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-26-01 06:12 PM ET (US)     2 / 55       
"AoE and RoR is dead..." - BlitzkreigComin

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peter
HG Alumnus
posted 06-26-01 06:52 PM ET (US)     3 / 55       
Judging by these forums that are getting more people again it isn't as dead as Blitz claims.
Dark_Avenger
Clubman
posted 06-26-01 09:11 PM ET (US)     4 / 55       
But we like to play with the Death!! ("dead"...Boffff, Just try to joking anyway...)
Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 02:40 PM ET (US)     5 / 55       
Ah, the dangers of taking a quote out of context.

What he actually said was the game is dead as far as discovering new strategies is concerned - because it's all been done and tried.


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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 03:03 PM ET (US)     6 / 55       
Wedsaz is in a bad way this week.

CenturionZ_1
HG Angel
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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 03:25 PM ET (US)     7 / 55       
Phill Phree:
Say, are you an active member of
a tic-tac-toe discussion forum?

That's basically what blitz equated AoE to
in his statement. If it's all been done,
then there's no more strategy left than
in tic-tac-toe.

CenturionZ_1:
Nah, as my life goes this is a pretty good week.

I'm just sort of upset at being told my favorite
passtime is dead.

Besides, if it's all been done has it all been said?
If so, what are we doing here?


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Boneser again
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 03:30 PM ET (US)     8 / 55       
So when will we see you on the Zone Wedsaz? You know you are the favorite in the over 15 Div.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 03:36 PM ET (US)     9 / 55       
Boneser again:

Dunno, I think I'll just go play *tic-tac-toe*
against the computer instead... doesn't take
as long to get a session started and there
aren't any less strategies to discover.


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Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 03:39 PM ET (US)     10 / 55       
Over here we call it noughts and crosses ;-)

I don't think saying that all strats have been discovered is the same thing as saying something is dead. People still play chess and noughts and crosses, don't they? And all strats have yet to be mastered by everyone who plays, even after all this time.


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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 03:58 PM ET (US)     11 / 55       
phill phree:
I don't know how it is over there, but here mostly small
children play "noughts and crosses", or newbie game coders
learning the basics of AI and graphics.

They haven't yet built a computer large enough to analyze
chess to the same level as tic-tac-toe, thus humans can
still beat even the largest chess-playing computers, which
they couldn't do if the computer had a database of all
possible strategies. New strategies in chess are still
being uncovered after a thousand years.

Why not AoE? Yet blitz seems to think that AoE cannot
have new strategies. He says he wants to hear them,
but apparently refuses to listen. I've heard it before,
and I've had it. My turn being the pessimist.


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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 06:36 PM ET (US)     12 / 55       
wedsaz:

The comparison between Chess and AoE is a great comparison...that is unless you can find something that noone else has come up with in the past four years of playinf AoE.

Today's battlefield and discussions come down to speed and execution, not applying "new" strategies. There hasn't been a new "discovery" for quite some time. Sorry that I am the one that has to break this bad news to you. If you would have played more, you might have realized this yourself.

Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 07:30 PM ET (US)     13 / 55       
Noughts and crosses and tic tac toe are the same game. It's a common exercise everywhere as a first base for learning programming, so it's done everywhere, like 'hello world'. As for small children still playing tic tac toe, I wouldn't know - I haven't been a child for years - perhaps that's also why I've given up disguising rudeness as politeness ;-)

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Boneser again
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 07:36 PM ET (US)     14 / 55       
My, my are we pouting about about the agonizing death rattles of RoR. Face it Wedsaz, you can't go back. So deal with it and get your whiny butt on the Zone!
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 08:59 PM ET (US)     15 / 55       
I hereby pronounce the AoE strategy community dead.

Goodbye, and have a nice life.


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Caesar Constintine
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 09:40 PM ET (US)     16 / 55       
Oh come on ya'll, I admit it I am really bad at AoE- but I have a good time playing it and I know I like it, and I like ya'll, and I learn more stuff about AoE everyday from ya'll- everyone... Remember "United we win". (I know my sometimes cheery attitude can sometimes get on people, but) Please be polite and try to honor others opinions Please ---do it for me I don't like to see AoE'ers argue with each other

Thanks, once again


*The might of Carthage, victors from the Cedars of Lebanon to the Pillars of Hercules,
the great traders and the worlds greatest navy.
Prepare to be defeated!
*We are Macedonians, we don't convert that easily.

[This message has been edited by Caesar Constintine (edited 06-28-2001 @ 09:45 PM).]

Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 10:08 PM ET (US)     17 / 55       
I have no beef with anyone - but if someone gets snide with me I'll slam them - then forget about it.

My Karma ran over my Dogma

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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 06-28-01 10:10 PM ET (US)     18 / 55       
So that is all it took for wedsaz... realize that he can't "discover" any more Persian strats....huh. Oh well.
CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 06-29-01 03:29 PM ET (US)     19 / 55       
I'm agreeing with Blitz here. Every single strat in AoE ahs been tried. Why? Because there are only a limited number of units in AoE and 16 civs. Every of these 16 civs has around 6 or 7 unit combos. 16 x 6 = 96.

96 different strat isn't too many. The new 'discovereis' are how to quicken booming, production... They're not different units attacking in different ways.


CenturionZ_1
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AliensTookElvis
Clubman
posted 06-30-01 02:10 PM ET (US)     20 / 55       
CentuionZ_1:
How do you figure every civ have only 6-7 unit combos? The possibile unit combos are much more than just 6-7.

Example: phoenecian landunits available in bronze age are - chariot, Chariot archer, camel, cavalry, composite bowman, priest, stonethrower, academy, Barracks swordsmen and slinger (slingers are the only toolunit I find useful in combination with bronzeunits).

If we keep our unit combination to 2 different units only we get almost 50 different possibilities. Thats with one single civ. And if we make our unit combo consist of 3 different units... well you figure it out, its a lot.

Thats that about that ( a nice word combo right there ). On another note; I dont really think you can equate a simple unit combo with an actual strategy. A toolrush is a strat, so is a powerup or a fake toolrush and so on. In my eyes you use the different unit combos to execute your strat. I donīt consider "going CA mad" a strat even if it semantically might be a strategy.

[This message has been edited by AliensTookElvis (edited 06-30-2001 @ 02:13 PM).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 07-03-01 02:49 PM ET (US)     21 / 55       
AliensTookElvis:

Maybe I was a bit hasty there. Looks like at least one person here still knows what a 'strategy' is, maybe there's others.

Tactically speaking, I find scouts are real nice with cav/camel rushes; they add LoS, can keep up, don't require any extra research, and can be trained while bronzing so they don't even slow down your cav production. That's +1 viable bronze unit I think.

What I call a strategy can be anything from a way to boom faster/bigger, to a unit combo (or even single unit!) to deal with a certain situation/problem, and combinations thereof.

An example of such a combination might be...
1. clubber rush, w/pit upgrades and 2-3 barracks
2. add unupgraded slingers to back up your clubbers, from barracks you already built
3. add a few cavs and a scout all trained from 2 stables, using toolworking which you got for your clubbers

The result can be a one-two-three attack that causes chaos early, breaks through walls, and finally catches running villies efficiently. It's more than the sum of its parts so in my book, it's a strategy.

Oh and things like putting a scout + 4 cavs in a transport to cav rush someone despite their wall, if they weren't paranoid enough to wall off the shore...

So if you look at it that way, there's probably thousands or tens of thousands of strategies. Also a strategy that's never been tried against currently popular strategy may not be 'new', but should still be treated as if it was since it might perform better than it did say, in the yammy cav rush days. That goes double for any strat that wasn't tried (and/or recombined) in RoR, with its new units and different gathering rates.


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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 07-03-01 08:18 PM ET (US)     22 / 55       
wedsaz:

Quote:
I hereby pronounce the AoE strategy community dead.

Goodbye, and have a nice life.

I was excited there for a few days.....

Shiny
Clubman
posted 07-03-01 08:49 PM ET (US)     23 / 55       
Maybe I was a bit hasty there. Looks like at least one person here still knows what a 'strategy' is, maybe there's others.

Is it me or have all your strategies been complete flops?
If there's one person that knows what a strategy is its definatly not you...

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 07-03-01 10:36 PM ET (US)     24 / 55       
Shiny:
"Is it me or have all your strategies been complete flops?"

It's you. My explanations may have been puzzling, perplexing or even obfuscated, but some have nonetheless used them successfully therefore they were not flops.

In addition, I don't think any of them would be an ersatz, unlike many 'new' strats I've seen over the years.

"If there's one person that knows what a strategy is its definatly not you..."

A lot could be said of me, but this is most certainly untrue; conversely, the dictionaries I oft delve into indubitably contain such a common word as 'strategy'. A 'unit combo' is not included amongst the definitions.

BTW, you mis-spelled 'definitely'.


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[This message has been edited by wedsaz (edited 07-04-2001 @ 12:58 PM).]

Shiny
Clubman
posted 07-03-01 10:43 PM ET (US)     25 / 55       
Wedsaz: I know of no one that has used your "fast boom" on a good people nor have I ever seen anyone pick persia in forever, even newbies.

wedsaz said:

It's you. My explanations may habe been puzzling, perplexing or even obfuscated, but some have nonetheless used them successfully therefore they were not flops.

who uses your strats routinely. If you want to prove that this crap works then PLAY.

btw you mis-spelled "have"

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 07-04-01 01:45 PM ET (US)     26 / 55       
Shiny:
"I know of no one that has used your "fast boom" on a good people nor have I ever seen anyone pick persia in forever, even newbies."

"I tried the minoan fastboom and got a 12:45 and was pumping compies and villies like mad in bronze." - RageOMatic

"with Persia, I bronzed at 12:00! flat!" - darius_the_mede

"who uses your strats routinely. If you want to prove that this crap works then PLAY"

Beethoven was deaf, yet he composed music that is still popular today. I was never that good a player anyway; others always did better with my strats than I did.

Playing won't help anyway, in the old days I played and wiped out good players, yet only one of my stratagems ever really became popular - the dock-block, go figure. *shrug*

"btw you mis-spelled "have""

thx, fixed.


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[This message has been edited by wedsaz (edited 07-04-2001 @ 07:36 PM).]

Delirious Lab
Clubman
(id: Benoit)
posted 07-04-01 01:53 PM ET (US)     27 / 55       
"Bach was deaf" - ROFLM%$@#?%@#AO !!!

Thanks wedsaz, you made my day.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 07-04-01 02:23 PM ET (US)     28 / 55       
Benoit:
Oops, wrong guy - beethoven was the deaf one. Fixed.

Doesn't matter, there's lots of examples.

Galileo and Newton never went to the moon.

Hawkings never flew through a black hole (good thing too).

To my knowledge, most murder mystery authors never killed anyone.

Anyway, you get the idea. It's possible to write pretty accurately about something without actually having done it.


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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 07-04-01 04:26 PM ET (US)     29 / 55       
Not in a game wedsaz. people hate football managers. Why? Cuz they reckon they know it all when they haven't played for ages.

People hate other people who can only deliver lip service. They hate people spitting out strats when they've never tried them.

Anyway, I reckon every civ (even Greek) can be good in RM. I saw someone hold out in Bronze with Short Swordmen while expanding and then hit Iron and won.

I found Roman rule and DM if play right but I don't say it works before I'v even tried it.

wedsaz, all we hate is you going on about all these strats that you think work when we've never seen you paly. For all we know you might just be a newbie trying to look good.


CenturionZ_1
HG Angel
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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 07-04-01 06:06 PM ET (US)     30 / 55       
CenturionZ_1:
Whether people hate that or not is irrelevant. Popularity has little to do with competance.

"They hate people spitting out strats when they've never tried them."

From personal experience, it looks like they also hate people spitting out strats after just clubbing them over the head with them. Most experts just plain hated the fastboom, even after I had just clobbered them with it several times in a row. Can you tell me why? To this day I still don't see a logical explanation

"For all we know you might just be a newbie trying to look good."

That sounds like an attempt at FUD to me.

Frankly, does it matter how good I am at playing?

If you were looking to buy a crossbow, how would you evaluate it?

1. try it yourself before buying it, see if it has a good balance etc
2. ask others whether that blacksmith makes good crossbows
3. get into a duel with the blacksmith, find out how good his aim with a crossbow is

Look at the following statement - which method does it match?
"For all we know you might just be a newbie trying to look good."


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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 07-04-01 06:19 PM ET (US)     31 / 55       
wedsaz:

What reason have you EVER given anyone to use your strategies? You are always the first to give unsoliciated advice to anyone the ever stops by, yet nobody that has spent any time at all here respects one word you speak. Why is that?

Your latest "claim" of outsmarting somebody by using clubbers in Iron only shows the mentality (or lack thereof) of players you have played in your illustrious AoE/RoR career.

Quote:
Frankly, does it matter how good I am at playing?

Yes it does matter. You always discount playing experience because you have none. If I wanted to learn how to play ANY game... I would want to learn from someone who has been there and done that. WTF with the crossbow babble?

Quote:
"For all we know you might just be a newbie trying to look good."

The word "might" needs to be replaced with "are".


Shiny
Clubman
posted 07-04-01 06:30 PM ET (US)     32 / 55       
read The persia post by darius. He managed to get a 12 min bronze, big freakin deal. That is good but he bronzed with 20 villagers and 4 boats not quite your 20/20 villager/boat ratio is it? I'm not gonna argue persia is fast but very unpredictable. In my opinion shang is still better. Darius used a fast bronze strategy similar to CD.

I'll read the fast fastboom strat later...

Looks like centurianZ_1 hit it right on the head. Play through your strategies on good players and watch them not work, PLZ.

Also 16 min hittite bronze? what are u smokin?

[This message has been edited by Shiny (edited 07-04-2001 @ 06:31 PM).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 07-04-01 07:08 PM ET (US)     33 / 55       
BlitzkreigComin:
"WTF with the crossbow babble?"

Playing skills are like crossbow skills, strategy is like the crossbow.

Sure knowing what a crossbow has to do helps, but you don't necessarily have to be the best crossbowman in the world to make the best crossbow. Chances are you'll use crossbows a bit, but mostly listen to feedback and work on your carving and metalworking skills.

IMHO, it's the same thing with strategy. I've probably read many times more about AoE strategy than you, and almost certainly spent more time calculating and finding out strange little details like which player color is stronger. Yes, color does matter.

On the other hand, I wouldn't want to get into a CA dancing contest with you. I know the result before trying it, you'd win every time even if we went at it for the next 2 years.

The cool thing is, if I can hit the target with this crossbow despite being a half blind, with your aim you should be able to hit bullseye every time. That's what the crossbow thing was about.


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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 07-04-01 08:09 PM ET (US)     34 / 55       
Shiny:
"read The persia post by darius. He managed to get a 12 min bronze, big freakin deal. That is good but he bronzed with 20 villagers and 4 boats not quite your 20/20 villager/boat ratio is it?"

Would you disagree if I said he was a newbie at the time?
Couldn't someone with more practice do better?

Besides, if you want boats you might want to ask RageOMatic to show you his 12:45 mino fastboom.

"I'm not gonna argue persia is fast but very unpredictable."

I disagree completely with persia being unpredictable. I'd say their biggest problem is that they are in fact predictable - they will tool rush, cav/camel rush early, or iron jump. They have to do those in specific ways, so if you take them seriously they're not that hard to counter. Most experts (and even most inters) don't take them seriously, after all these years of hearing they were worse than greek.

Maybe it's just my luck, but I find a lot more hunting than berries. I'll take persia's "unpredictable" hunting over my predictably bad berries any day.

"In my opinion shang is still better."

IMO shang is more flexible.

If you need to be unpredictable... go shang.

If you need bronze speed followed by a nice steady boom... go shang.

If you need to be fast... go persia.

"Darius used a fast bronze strategy similar to CD."

Yes, he did. My own persian strategy was based on the mino fastboom, though geared more towards land due to the different set of civ bonuses. I won't bore you with the results, you probably wouldn't care anyway.

"I'll read the fast fastboom strat later"

Whuh? I'll assume you meant the mino fastboom...

If you like stability, that one should be easier to adapt to your needs. In AoE you probably won't have to change anything, I think they're still using the old "crappy bronzing" assy CA rush...

For RoR maybe increasing the number of woodies in tool, delaying bronze in favor of a strong tool rush on both land and sea could be worth a try. Dunno, didn't try it.

"Play through your strategies on good players and watch them not work, PLZ."

I tried, I really did, but it didn't work out that way... I won.

"Also 16 min hittite bronze? what are u smokin?"

Probably the same stuff you do when you talk about 12 min shang tool.

That was the bronze time hittite could get with a decent tool time (~9 mins) using berries and hunting (no SF). When I talk about "fastbronze" that's what I mean, the old land food bronze rush from "ye goode olde dayses". Crappy bronzing revisited is after that era, the original "crappy bronzing" article might be at the beginning of it.

I know times change, I understand hittite will now bronze faster if they boom to 11-12 mins, or if they're on conti near a shore covered with shorefish.


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Shiny
Clubman
posted 07-04-01 09:14 PM ET (US)     35 / 55       
"I'm not gonna argue persia is fast but very unpredictable."

I disagree completely with persia being unpredictable. I'd say their biggest problem is that they are in fact predictable - they will tool rush, cav/camel rush early, or iron jump. They have to do those in specific ways, so if you take them seriously they're not that hard to counter. Most experts (and even most inters) don't take them seriously, after all these years of hearing they were worse than greek.

Didn't explain myself well enough here. What I mean is getting 2 eles is Alot more difficult than a berry patch not to mention you need around 5 villies in one spot to kill it + they only have 500 food...not to mentio the risk of losing a villy.

"Play through your strategies on good players and watch them not work, PLZ."

I tried, I really did, but it didn't work out that way... I won.

In the past you may have won but now, get on the zone play against.

me, korean, or blitz
see if your strategies work, if they do I will shut up and give you respect.

Preferably me =) I'm the easiest.

Also 16 min hittite bronze? what are u smokin?"

Probably the same stuff you do when you talk about 12 min shang tool.

still wanna know why it would take that long to bronze. The 12 min tool is with 50+ villagers...thought you would know...

these arn't the good ol days you can fast bronze in sub 14 min's with hitt. give up your past and learn how to play NOW.

About the crossbow thing. Well no one I know has success with your strategies nor have you had success with your strategies recenly so...I'd say your crossbow is broke.

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 07-05-01 02:29 AM ET (US)     36 / 55       
wedsaz:

Are you saying if I picked a "weak" player color and you picked a "strong" player color.... you would win? You really have some usefull knowledge.

Here is a question: In what direction from your TC is your berries found 60% of the time? I know where I can find them 60% of the time.

As for the reading strategies bit... I really doubt you have read more than me. If there is an AoE website out there, I've been there and read all of the strats. I have a 3" binder full of all the strats I printed out when I started playing a year and a half ago. As for calculations, I have spent a lot of time calculating true gathering rates and best villager to pit ratio. You have spent a lot more time than me calculating strats that I can obviously see are poor because I have a couple thousand more games experience than you.

As for strats and ideas I discuss... they are all what I have used to play with the best players in RoR. I don't have any half-assed strats that have low odds of executing. I use fundamentally sound strats so I can compete game in and game out.

BTW both Darius and RageOMatic are never on the Zone so there are three of you that have this great little secret to yourselves. Too bad noone can step forward and use your strats and get your results against average players on the Zone.

Who are you trying to convince here that you have any credibility in your false claims that you call strats?

I have been on the Zone playing and helping players for over a year and a half while you have mysteriously been able to make only two appearances in this time and get beat badly. What is it in your lil head that makes you think because you don't play, you are somehow in a better position to offer advice? Do you think you were ever an expert? Do you ever plan on being a respected person in the gaming community? Or are you content with just being a know-it-all impressing one or two people around here that never play themselves?

Shiny
Clubman
posted 07-05-01 03:03 AM ET (US)     37 / 55       
Amen.
Shiny
Clubman
posted 07-05-01 03:21 AM ET (US)     38 / 55       
Here is a question: In what direction from your TC is your berries found 60% of the time? I know where I can find them 60% of the time.

OMG blitz you are the man just spent 30 min generating random maps...This could easily take 20 secs+ off of my times every game! God bless ya. This is the most usefull thing that I've seen on this forum in weeks. THANKS.

Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 07-05-01 04:43 AM ET (US)     39 / 55       
Agreed. If you don't get a good start you're screwed. Any way to stop or reduce aimless wanderings at the beginning is good news.

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Delirious Lab
Clubman
(id: Benoit)
posted 07-05-01 07:37 AM ET (US)     40 / 55       
OK wedsaz, the question is burning our lips: Which color is stronger, and why?
CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 07-05-01 01:38 PM ET (US)     41 / 55       
wedsaz please explain how you can the best at let's say tennis startegies and shots when you never play it and just pump out shots that you think sounds good but have never tried?

CenturionZ_1
HG Angel
AoEH Staff

'In heaven an angel is nobody in particular.' - George Bernard Shaw
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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 07-05-01 04:18 PM ET (US)     42 / 55       
Shiny:
"Didn't explain myself well enough here. What I mean is getting 2 eles is Alot more difficult than a berry patch not to mention you need around 5 villies in one spot to kill it + they only have 500 food...not to mentio the risk of losing a villy."

I can agree with persia being more difficult, that's perfectly true. When playing persia I prefer gazelles to eles as my first food because I only need 2 villies, and at worst one runs too far but at least I don't lose people.

"Preferably me =) I'm the easiest."

I will, I will! Lately I've been way too busy between family business and fixing some serious (and urgent) bugs in UrMud, but things seem more stable now so I'll try for this weekend.

I'l probably lose, strategy doesn't help much when you forget to build your houses and stuff but there's only one way I can get the dust off...

"still wanna know why it would take that long to bronze"

If you look, you'll see I devoted the next paragraph to explaining that. People didn't know about SF, they didn't fish, and they tooled earlier (probably to prevent tool rushes). I did see some faster times, one hittite I saw usually bronzed in ~13 mins w/slower tool and SF... though once in a while he got tooled and died a quick death, that was the risk he took and he knew it.

"these arn't the good ol days you can fast bronze in sub 14 min's with hitt"

Sure, and I hear you can fastbronze in 10:30 instead of 12:00 with shang, probably using a similar strategy. The point was to show the speed difference between civs, so the newbies could know which was faster and which slower. I know perfectly well you can do much better by using SF and squeezing the juice out of your every resource, but that's a bit harder.

"I'd say your crossbow is broke."

What kind of answer do you expect to a statement like that? I'm sure you already know I disagree with it.

BlitzkreigComin:
"Are you saying if I picked a "weak" player color and you picked a "strong" player color.... you would win? You really have some usefull knowledge."

Not quite, it's much smaller factor than my non-existant playing skills. All things being equal though, some colors would beat others on the battlefield yes.

"Here is a question: In what direction from your TC is your berries found 60% of the time? I know where I can find them 60% of the time."

Is that so? Interesting, I'll have to look into that. It sure would help my land play if I could find my flaking berries before my opponent tools...

"I started playing a year and a half ago"
"read all of the strats"
"couple thousand more games experience than you"

I played for about a year and a half as well, back when I played almost every night. Those strats you read? I played with some of the guys who wrote them, and won about as often as I lost.

I've also been reading strats that *don't* appear on websites, for the past 4 years or so. Forum strat postings by legends and inters alike.

"you think because you don't play, you are somehow in a better position to offer advice?"

Of course not. But if I say centurions beat clubmen, because I don't play you you think it must be wrong?

"Do you think you were ever an expert?"

Yes, but now I'm mostly just old.

"Do you ever plan on being a respected person in the gaming community?"

Until I came here that had little importance to me, which is probably why you never heard of me. Now, I'm not sure... but given a choice, so long as the zone starts churning out wild new strats either way, I'd rather remain anonymous. I really don't care for fame or power, and only started mentioning my past when people started accusing me of being a complete rook who neer played. I did play, just not in tournaments.

Benoit:
"Which color is stronger, and why?"

Blue, then red, then ?yellow? (3rd), brown, and so on.

The reason, based on my tests, seems to be that the 1st player's units shoot first, then the 2nd players', and so on, basically giving certain players first strike. This is a relatively small advantage, but when a battle can go either way it can make the difference.

Blue however can be disadvantaged by the lag due to hosting the game, which in my case can be a factor because my computer is slow.

Therefore I would say red is strongest, unless you have a killer machine of course in which case blue is better.

CenturionZ_1:
"please explain how you can the best at let's say tennis startegies and shots when you never play it and just pump out shots that you think sounds good but have never tried?"

I'm not sure that's a good example. I can explain how someone could know something useful to a tennis player without being a good player himself though.

There's referees, tennis racket designers, tennis shoe designers, and so on. Do they win tennis tournaments? I'd say for the most part, they don't.

So I'd compare AoE strategies to say, tennis shoes. You can make good ones that can make the difference between two good tennis players, without necessarily being a good tennis player. You just have to know what's needed, know your materials, and spend the time to put it together.

Having people who play better than you try them out can certainly help, which is why I came to this forum. If the only way I can get people to try them out is by playing them ad nauseam until I can do them perfectly, then what's the point of getting those people to try them in the first place? What's in it for me?


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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 07-05-01 04:33 PM ET (US)     43 / 55       
Um, but they aren't necessarily the best?

CenturionZ_1
HG Angel
AoEH Staff

'In heaven an angel is nobody in particular.' - George Bernard Shaw
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Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 07-05-01 04:39 PM ET (US)     44 / 55       
Well...I have finally found out why I lose some games. I usually choose player 6's color...green. I reckon my response to an attack must be six times as slow as blue's. I am always amazed at the info I find here. LOL

Knowledge is not power until it is formulated into an organized plan of action.
Shiny
Clubman
posted 07-05-01 04:54 PM ET (US)     45 / 55       
Wedsaz, I'm curious who were these great you played with??? You say you knew CD? Around that time, from reading the forums, it seems like rated play was getting real big, yet you've never played a rated game??? This seems kind of odd, especially with your ego.
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 07-05-01 05:14 PM ET (US)     46 / 55       
Wedsaz will mention a time or two he bothered matty in a co-op or two. I wonder why wedsaz's name isn't mentioned with matty, methos, celestial dawn, and crexis. The "expert" group was kind of small back then so when wedsaz was beating these people and inventing strategies means he must have been one of the world's finest.

Funny enough.... I asked matty once about wedsaz (I don't claim to know matty well, just played a few games with him). Wedsaz didn't leave a lasting impression on him because he didn't remember him. Matty needs to show some respect to such a legend as wedsaz...LOL

The color thing is the funniest damn thing I have heard around here in a long time. I now will pick blue and I expect to be the very best player in RoR.

Thanks for the constant laughs wedsaz!

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 07-05-01 09:02 PM ET (US)     47 / 55       
Sumerian_Leper:
No, not six times slower.

See, AoE seems to make the units move using a round-robin kind of thing. Blue moves, then red, then yellow, and so on.

So playing blue would be almost exactly like taking white in chess. You get a slight edge, but if you suck you'll lose anyway.

Shiny:
"Wedsaz, I'm curious who were these great you played with??? You say you knew CD?"

Played with CD a few times, was fun. Also played with some others he was playing with. Played with matty about half a dozen games as well, at least I'm pretty sure it was him; he wasn't using the name maimin_matty, he had some clan prefix and was invis on the zone list, but the playing style matched with what was reported of the rumble for rome tournament so he was probably just trying to have some fun without all the newbies chasing him.

"Around that time, from reading the forums, it seems like rated play was getting real big, yet you've never played a rated game???"

I didn't like the crowd in rated games, most of the time. They had crappy allies, cheaters, weird stunts like 2v2s where your ally always "mysteriously" quits (not dropped!) a minute into the game, bronze-high-gogogo freaks, and other unpleasant things.

Tournaments meanwhile had very tight schedules, and even then I couldn't always make time when the tournaments got scheduled so I didn't bother trying.

Besides, I didn't want fame. It's too much trouble, if I had been well known on the zone I would have had to smurf to avoid getting spammed.

When I played it was to explore new strategies, or for some light fun. Going into rated games or tournaments didn't go well with that, so I didn't.

"This seems kind of odd, especially with your ego."

Perhaps you overestimated my ego. I really don't care for fame or even respect. I just like strategy, and it upsets me that I haven't been able to adjust them for the past 3 years.

BlitzkreigComin:
"the "expert" group was kind of small back then"

Not that small. Some like CD became legends, but there were many others who didn't post strats and didn't play in tournaments (for similar reasons as myself), but could still play a good game.

I only played half a dozen games with matty, none of them very spectacular, and it was a long time ago for him. He probably played thousands of games of AoE and AoK since, and saw hundreds of thousands of names go by. I would have been very surprised if he remembed me after all that, wouldn't you?

"Matty needs to show some respect to such a legend as wedsaz...LOL"

Nah, I don't think anybody's good enough to be worshipped. I wouldn't expect any more respect of him than I would give to a total stranger.

"I now will pick blue and I expect to be the very best player in RoR."

See my answer to Sumerian_Leper's post.

"Thanks for the constant laughs wedsaz!"

No problem. You're more fun when you're laughing than when you're yelling curses, btw.


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Delirious Lab
Clubman
(id: Benoit)
posted 07-06-01 07:55 AM ET (US)     48 / 55       
wedsaz:

So what if the comp cycles the player's moves? Let us assume for a moment that this theory of yours is true, and it very well may be. (I'm not buying into it yet, just trying to demonstrate that even if it is true, it still doesn't matter squat what color you pick). If blue and red engage in battle in a 1v1, chances are equal that when the units meet it will be red's turn to fire or blue's. So where's the advantage?

You will say that this isn't true if there are 6 other players on the map, so I'll reply right away: Yes, if blue and red fight in an 8-player game, then odds are 7/8 that blue will fire first... however, on the 1/8 of the time that red fires first, then blue will have a 7 times longer wait before he fires (because the comp goes red, yellow, brown, etc.).

34567812 - blue is one turn ahead
45678123 - blue is one turn ahead
56781234 - blue is one turn ahead
67812345 - blue is one turn ahead
78123456 - blue is one turn ahead
81234567 - blue is one turn ahead
12345678 - blue is one turn ahead
23456781 - red is 7 turns ahead

So, it all averages out. Blue has 7/8 chances of a one-turn lead, and red has a 1/8 chance of a 7-turn lead. Even if you come up with some twisted math that proves blue has an advantage over red, so what? Red has the same advantage over yellow, yellow over brown, brown over orange, orange over green, green over color 7*, color 7 over color 8... color 8 over blue. It all goes full circle so no one has an absolute advantage.

(* Forgot which is 7 and which is 8, teal/gray.)

"Played with matty about half a dozen games as well, at least I'm pretty sure it was him; he wasn't using the name maimin_matty, he had some clan prefix and was invis on the zone list, but the playing style matched with what was reported of the rumble for rome tournament so he was probably just trying to have some fun without all the newbies chasing him."

OK people, here comes the big revelation: Benoit is a smurf, my real identity is Celestial Dawn and you have all been beating the crap out of me on the Zone for the past three months! I hereby declare you all legend-whacking experts! Gee wedsaz, how come you didn't recognize me?


Delirious Lab - Winner of Kman's (himself a recipient of _Vontos_' Medal of Logic) Award for Cleverness.
Benoit's posts make me sing the "there's no Canada like French Canada" song. - Spitfire
I think in Quebec they speak Latin, or some language I dont understand. - c_moach
What man needs most of all is a breath of fresh air. - Fyodor Dostoevsky, Crime and Punishment
They'll learn to like it someday. - Ludwig van Beethoven
We dick around. - Pat Quinn

[This message has been edited by Benoit (edited 07-06-2001 @ 07:57 AM).]

CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 07-06-01 01:16 PM ET (US)     49 / 55       
Blitz, don't give yourself arthiritis. wedsaz' idea is total CRAP. It doesn't affect the gameplay which color you play, it affects your mind. Teal is harder to spot on a mini-map compared to red and so this 'lag' might be from searching you units. Then in combat AoE doesn't give a round robin effect where one side loses HP and then another. It's who attacks first. Whoever's unit first starts to attack another unit will get the upper ahnd not a color round robin. It is very unlikely that two units will be sent to attack each other at the same time, it's always whoever attack first.

Have you ever played the campaign Challenge of the Heroes wedsaz? Well in that you are one hero and must fight another identical hero with identical stats. Blue doesn;t always win, it's whoever realises he should attack or who has the first shot because there's a little lag between encountering the enemy and attacking. You should paly it.


CenturionZ_1
HG Angel
AoEH Staff

'In heaven an angel is nobody in particular.' - George Bernard Shaw
Age of Empires Heaven Agetoons About Me
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 07-06-01 02:16 PM ET (US)     50 / 55       
Benoit:
Dunno, but that's what the results were. The first color seems to have a slight edge over the 2nd color, regardless of who is playing. The round-robin-shooting is the most logical explanation I've been able to come up with, and you know how I like to have mathematical formula for everything in this game.

One thing you're not taking into account is that while the computer cycles through players 3-8, blue and red are both waiting. That means 7/8ths of the time blue shoots first, and 1/8ths of the time red shoots first... the delay doesn't balance it out.

One thing I noticed though. Looking at your numbers, players 6, 7 and 8 would shoot before player 1 at least half the time. Interesting, I'll have to play 8 more.


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