You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

The Hall of Fame

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.263 replies, Sticky
Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » The Hall of Fame » Defence in RM hill country
Bottom
Topic Subject:Defence in RM hill country
« Previous Page  1 2 3 4 5 6  Next Page »
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 01-28-04 06:41 AM ET (US)         
Hi all, I've been spending whatever free time I have these days trying out a type of terrain new to me, the hills. I've read some of the tips in the MP strategy pages already, but I still find these maps rather tricky to handle.

Ok, I play against the CP and wallop it everytime. However, I frequently have enemy villies infiltrating into my side of the map. It doesn't kill me, but it's extremely agitating, especially in the earlier stages of the game. I usually explore about half of the map ("my side") by mid-Tool. I've uncovered important resources and all 22 of my villies are working hard to gather wood and food for a decent Bronze timing. That means all my resources are being stockpiled for age-advance. I have practically no military except for a couple of pathetic bowmen. I only start booming out my army when I reach Bronze and have researched the wheel (I love CAs ).

I don't know if Bronzing in 16 to 18 minutes in hill terrain is ok?... If it's bad, are there any tips to improve the timing? Should I start off with more villies or something?

Anyway, back to the topic of defence. Before I reach Bronze, I see a couple of enemy villies exploring my territory. That makes me rather panicky since I have to get a few of mine to stop work and get rid of him before he uncovers my whole base. I also start worrying that the enemy army might pay me a visit soon. Fortunately, the CP isn't good enough to do that, so I always win in the end.

However, I'm sure that good players would have their army overrun my base in no time. I've thought of setting up defences like walls and towers, but they're practically useless. I can't possibly dedicate so many of my villies on stone mining. Moreover, walling and towering is time-costly. It'll definitely kill my economy and prevent me from going to Bronze.

Are there any tips and suggestions for a better form of defence instead? I don't want the enemy to sneak into my base through a gap in the flank and start creating havoc while my troops are far away at the front. Neither do I want to dedicate too many of my villies on walling.


D XUAN
AuthorReplies:
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-24-04 11:27 AM ET (US)     151 / 263       
Hmm, Persia doesn't appear to be the civ I like to work with. I prefer those that are strong in early Bronze. I had a 1v1 today and I tried using Persia. Somehow it let me down... I was only able to achieve my usual timings of 12min-Tool and 16-min Bronze, and 16min for Bronze is already considered slightly slower than my average now already. Must be something that I did wrong... In the end my plan for a scout rush failed miserably because I was too slow. My opponent didn't grow that big yet either, but he had a few CAs already, and I anticipated more on the way, so I resigned.

After that I had a 2v2, random civ. Screenshots here. I seem to be unlucky with random civs... First I got Palmy, then I got Persia once, and now Babylonia... Another civ I am not familiar with. All I know is that they have strong towers and walls. I did an appalling 17-min Bronze (had too much food and too little wood to build a second Tool age building) and nearly got killed by blue. He sent a single cav to attack my forward hunters. Fortunately I was able to retaliate with a few more. Then together with my partner's camels, we attacked his base and killed him. He resigned.

After that I was sort of complacent... I thought we would have won for sure since yellow was on his own. Unfortunately, we waited for quite some time before attacking. I was getting chariots and my partner got CAs. It was too slow as yellow got his CAs to harass us. Although I managed to get rid of them, I had to wait for another few minutes to build up a decent force. When we counter-attacked, yellow's CAs flooded out and killed my partner. His base was destroyed and yellow turned on me. I put on some token resistance (I was overwhelmed, in fact) before resigning.

All I can say is that I should've done better... Personally, I think that the problem lies in the fact that I Bronzed so late. If I had done so earlier, I'd have gotten blue then yellow. Plus, I should have went for CAs rather than stable units. Ok, I admit I don't know much about Babylonia's tech tree and bonuses. Well, this game is one of the more painful lessons I got... Every game is something new being learnt.


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-24-04 07:52 PM ET (US)     152 / 263       
Duan Xuan:
Persia's main strength is their speed. You need to get your bronze time down before they can do you any good.

Babs have 50% faster stone mining, double wall and tower hps, and a full bronze. With no econ bonus, the best you can expect for bronze time is about 15 mins, and for that you'd have to make over 30 villies in stone.

Yellow played babs too. He bronzed in about 15 mins, the best you can expect with babs, and totally outboomed you after that. Just a guess here, but I'd say he's no rookie.

Looking at the screenshots I see idle farmers, and woodcutters chopping over 3 tiles from the nearest pit.

Did you see the movie "Groundhog Day"? Start a game as shang vs an AI on 'easiest'. Try to bronze as fast as you can, but after 10 mins pause the game. If you're not bronzing yet, figure out what you did wrong and try again. Don't make military or try to kill the AI - just go to bronze over and over and over until you get it under 12:30. Since that's all you're focusing on, you'll learn it much faster than if you spend that time on the zone waiting for a game.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-24-04 07:55 PM ET (US)     153 / 263       
Um...basically all you need to know about Baby is that they're a slow civ and have basically every unit (except ballistae and elephants). They're like a bad version of Hittite. They have CAs, compies, STs, chariots, bad scythe chariots (no iron upgrades), heavy cats, camels, cavs, and of course the good towers. Anyway, if you get to mid-bronze with them, you can play them like Hittite (CAs and STs) or like any compie civ. Use the towers to secure some gold spots or annoy your opponent.
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-24-04 09:43 PM ET (US)     154 / 263       
Mmm, I did a bit of reading up in AoEH and found that Babs have priests that rejuvenate 30% faster. Oh well, they would probably be useless if I had used them anyway... Priests are dead meat against CAs.

So, if I'm going for a Bronze war with Babylonia, which combination of units should I use? Chariots and CAs? They don't have bonuses for those and would definitely put me at a disadvantage if I'm fighting an opponent like Assy or Hittite.

Wedsaz, I figured that I was going to lose anyway so I didn't bother to pit and build new farms. And no, I didn't watch the movie. What was it about?


D XUAN
Dangrimm
Clubman
posted 04-24-04 10:58 PM ET (US)     155 / 263       
Thats your flaw, duan- not pitting too far away or anything like that- you just give up the reigns of power too easily, giving up is not an option , just keep fighting to survive. In the grand prix ,it would be pretty stupid if one car passed the driver and he thought, "damn, i guess im oging to lose now" and just stopped driving. do you see my point?
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-25-04 00:27 AM ET (US)     156 / 263       
Sigh, you're right, Dangrimm. I had a few more games after the two we played (decided that I can do my work and revision later ) and I resigned rather soon in most of the games I lost.

Screenshots from the games I played today here, starting with the second game I had against Dangrimm. Forgot to take screenies of our first game though. http://www.xeenslayer.netfirms.com/AoE/aoerorzonescreenshots3.html#ZoneRMHill-13-dangrimm

First game we had, I lost. I went for a Macey hoplite rush but my Bronze timing was really terrible. Plus, Dangrimm killed half of my villies with his bowman rush earlier on. My econ was in shambles when I retaliated with my STs, cav and hoplites. I resigned after seeing that he had his CAs, and I imagined he would have had more, so I resigned.

In our second game, he chose Rome and I chose Assy. I managed to catch him napping with my CA rush, and he resigned. Dangrimm, I think in that game you Tooled with too few villies. When you told me you were in Tool with 18 or 19 villies, I thought you were going to Tool-rush me, so I walled hurriedly. Sort of puzzled me when I didn't see anything come, so I attacked instead.

After those two games, I had a 3v3. My team won. Nothing veyr special about that. I just CA-rushed one of my opponents, and my partners did the same thing simultaneously, so we won.

I partnered the same two players (apparently from some UOC clan) again. I don't know what happened, but one of them disconnected at the start, and the other resigned... You know, he could've continued with me and we would still have won. I wasn't that bad. So, now left on my own, I figured I would lose anyway, so I decided to have some fun playing 1v3. I hit Bronze pretty quickly and hit my nearest opponent, green, with my chariots. I killed off most of his econ but the others came to got me with their CAs. I couldn't hold them off so I resigned. My econ was really too small compared to theirs combined. Plus, blue was quite a good Bronze boomer.

In the last game, a 2v2, my partner disconnected before the game even started... I then took on both of my opponents by myself. We were of about the same standard, and when I was going to CA-rush them, I saw both of their CAs charging at my base... I resigned without even putting up a fight. So, yes, Dangrimm's got a point in saying that I resign too quickly.

Now I can have faster Tool and Bronze timings if I settle for fewer villies in Stone, but should I really do that?

For my CA strats, I usually go for 26 villies in Stone (the number that Blitz recommends) and I usually get a 15-16 minute Bronze.

For Roman, I usually have one or two villies less and then go for a chariot rush. It works very well if I don't screw up my Bronze timing.

I'm trying to use Mace now... I read Centy's Mace hoplite rush and tried it out for a couple of games. It says that I should have slightly more than 20 (I assume it's about 22) villies before I hit the Tool upgrade. I followed what it said in the guide in the first game I had against Dangrimm, but I couldn't get myself an economy that was solid enough to sustain my attack. That was part of the reason why I resigned. However, if I have more villies at the start, I would Bronze too late and I wouldn't be able to achieve the level of surprise required. Big dilemma here for me...


D XUAN

[This message has been edited by Duan Xuan (edited 04-25-2004 @ 00:30 AM).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-25-04 01:54 AM ET (US)     157 / 263       
Duan Xuan:
That's right, priests don't last long with all those CAs around, which is why I didn't mention them.

With babylon in bronze you should use CAs. Yes, that puts you at a disadvantage compared to civs with good archers, which is why you don't often see people pick babylon on purpose. That's why I mentioned tower rushing - with babs you have good bonuses for it, and neither assy nor hittite have slingers to fight back with. For the other civs you may have a fair chance in a CA fight.

Never give up! Sometimes your opponent will get complacent after succeeding on the first attack, so try to rebuild even if you think you're dead.

Looking at the screenshots, it seems you bronze much faster with roman than with assy. Maybe because of wood shortages? If so, try phoenie and play them like assy. They have CAs without bonuses, but their villies carry more wood which helps a lot if you don't pit as often as you should.

Whether to make less villies for a faster bronze depends on your strat. Sometimes you need more speed, sometimes more econ. CA rushes are expensive - for assy, stick with Blitz's number.

Mace is a slow civ (no econ bonuses), start at 26 villies and increase until you find the number that lets you bronze right after tool. Hoplites cost a lot of gold and can't catch CAs, but they're great for an initial rush since even without upgrades, nothing in tool can touch them. Use mace's compies and 1/2 cost STs for sustained attacks - good against CAs, even better against towns.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107048/

Groundhog Day was about a man reliving the same day over and over until he gets it right. You should see it, it's very funny. My point was that you should do the same thing to improve your bronze time, by going through it many more times per hour than if you were playing full games. I'll be doing that when I can play AoE again, before I go back on the zone - get my persian bronze back down to 11 mins so I can say hi to a few people... with cavs...


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-25-04 02:16 AM ET (US)     158 / 263       
No, phoe is probably slower than Assy now, if not equivalent. Their woodcutters cut a whopping 0.05 more wood per second than other woodcutters.

OTOH, Rome's boost is quite significant. You aren't as dependent on stragglers to get your first storage pit up, which is definitely a plus. Especially for a tool rush (I don't know why you'd pick Rome otherwise, unless you wanted to screw around). But I really wouldn't go with chariot rush vs. CA civ unless you have to or are ahead. You won't get the chariots out any faster than they can produce CAs and CAs and camels both own them. I don't know, if I have a stable and want to rush early in Bronze, I make camels or cav. Rome only gets the latter, another shortcoming of its Bronze.

[This message has been edited by RomanGladius (edited 04-25-2004 @ 02:20 AM).]

Dangrimm
Clubman
posted 04-25-04 04:21 AM ET (US)     159 / 263       
I have very recently (as in the past hour or so), been learning how to yamato cavalry rush- so far, ive gotten down to a 14:45 bronze time, on hills, which is mildly respectable, but I still need faster, so DX, later on in the week, i wish to have another game with u.
PL Guderian
Clubman
posted 04-25-04 10:02 AM ET (US)     160 / 263       
For the first time, I can rush very early without help of expert allies. I played 4 games yesterday on GameSpy Arcade and won 3 of them. I use this tactic: atack with Horse Archers with the Hittes, and build many archery ranges plus a government center to upgrade. With the Greeks, I put Heavy Calvaly on the field first and build many stables. I earned some respect from those games. Not many call me a rook anymore.
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-25-04 10:19 AM ET (US)     161 / 263       
Wedsaz, somehow I feel that I do better with Roman too. I tried practicing with Shang for 3 times and every time I wasn't able to Bronze in 12, or even 14 for that matter... I was unable to scout well for food sources. Hunting is troublesome because I have to gather a few villies first. I prefer berry spots as they don't require many villies to work together all at once. Shang's fast for most people, but definitely not for me...

I'm not really going to work on the Mace hoplite rush until I'm much better. Those hoplites are too slow to be of any use if my opponent is getting CAs.

So far the civs I make use of best (for my current standard) is Roman, Assy and Persia. I can do reasonably well (fast and strong) with Roman. I am slower but stronger with Assy. I can be pretty fast with Persia, but weak. I guess I should work on them.

Dangrimm, sure... I don't mind getting my ass whipped, really. I treat defeats as lessons. I love learning.

Guderian, I doubt you were playing RM? I mean, nobody would let you get to Iron that easily in a (default-age) RM, unless they're pretty lousy. You must have been playing either DM or Iron-start RM...


D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-25-04 12:53 PM ET (US)     162 / 263       
RomanGladius:
Yes, but phoe villies still carry 3 extra wood. For someone who doesn't pit often, that can make a big difference in the woodpile.

Dangrimm:
Not bad. To give you something to aim for, you can get it down to about 14:00 mins with assy. Then try with shang if you want even more speed, they can bronze in 12 mins with a granary start.

Duan Xuan:
Persia is the one that needs hunting, and it's hard because of that. You have to practice your other skills more before you're ready for them.

Shang isn't tied to any particular start. Play shang as you would play assy or roman, berries first as usual.

Definitely try phoenie. They're nowhere near as fast as they used to be, but still good for someone with poor wood management. For you I think they'll be about like roman but with CAs instead of just chariots.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
Dangrimm
Clubman
posted 04-26-04 01:46 AM ET (US)     163 / 263       
14 mins for assy? but im going yamato- and i think i can get it to 12 mins, just a matter of finding my second berries before I hit tool.

I played persians just before, I got hill berries *Sigh*, but fortunately found 6 juicy elephants quite near my base, and that catapulted me to bronze around 13 mins, which aint bad, but isnt the best for persians.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-26-04 12:10 PM ET (US)     164 / 263       
Dangrimm:
12 mins for yammy? Maybe with SF, but with berries?!?

Persian 13 mins? Considering the hill berries, I guess that's not bad. Try to go for a meat+wood pit first, that gives you a good boost right at the start.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 04-26-04 02:14 PM ET (US)     165 / 263       
wedsaz, you're spamming.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-26-04 03:58 PM ET (US)     166 / 263       
peter:
Please, explain to me how two posts a day is spamming.
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 04-26-04 04:13 PM ET (US)     167 / 263       
It's the content, old boy, not the number of posts. We have covered this so often I have lost count - and then i was a late comer - how many times would this have been covered before I entered the fray?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-26-04 06:25 PM ET (US)     168 / 263       
peter:
What do you mean by "this"? It would help if you were a bit more specific.

Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
Dr Lorenzo
AOEH Seraph
posted 04-26-04 11:28 PM ET (US)     169 / 263       
Noticing the "", I don't think peter is actually angry...

DR LORENZO
AoEH | Woad Creations Alumni
I of course meant bastard in a positive way! - Kor
I just sort of chop away at it when it gets long enough. The ladies love it. - Obese, on shaving
Lorenzo is kind of like that relative everyone knows about but won't talk about. - Crimson Knight
We already knew about the mass murders and gang rapes and ethnic cleansings, but now they've resorted to ENCRYPTING PEOPLES ELECTRONIC DOCUMENTS! - drahnier
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-27-04 00:38 AM ET (US)     170 / 263       
Dr Lorenzo:
Nor do I, but I'd still like to know what he's referring to...
Dr Lorenzo
AOEH Seraph
posted 04-27-04 01:04 AM ET (US)     171 / 263       
I think he's saying you're going over a heavily covered area, but there's no harm in some discussion.

DR LORENZO
AoEH | Woad Creations Alumni
I of course meant bastard in a positive way! - Kor
I just sort of chop away at it when it gets long enough. The ladies love it. - Obese, on shaving
Lorenzo is kind of like that relative everyone knows about but won't talk about. - Crimson Knight
We already knew about the mass murders and gang rapes and ethnic cleansings, but now they've resorted to ENCRYPTING PEOPLES ELECTRONIC DOCUMENTS! - drahnier
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 04-27-04 03:37 AM ET (US)     172 / 263       
So trolling is next. No way am I going to make myself plainer - you're smart enough to know what I mean and I wasted enough time trying to get your strats working and now you're trying to waste other people's time. That's what I object to. Waste your own time, wedsaz, that would be a lot better.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-27-04 01:26 PM ET (US)     173 / 263       
peter:
Ah, so that's what it's about.

Some people got my fastboom strats working after just a few tries. Others are so far from it, they can't even believe the alleged results.

I think it's a different style of play, one that you're not comfortable with. I'm ok with that, I never could get CA rushing to work right for me, so I guess it works both ways.

However, in this thread I tried to stick to relatively standard strats, that are not mine.

All the bronze times I mentioned come from articles written by other people, except the minoan bronze which I did say is controversial. The standard bronze time for minoan on wet maps is a semi-fast 14 mins, similar to assy and roman, achieved by a berry-first start (not me!) and some boats.

Now, unless you've got something specific that's bothering you, I'd like to find out whether phoenie helped Duan Xuan's CA rush. I really hope he gets it right, then maybe some day he can teach me how to do a berry start...


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-27-04 01:46 PM ET (US)     174 / 263       
1) Phoe would not be significantly faster (or even faster) than Assy in the CA rush. Their chopping speed is insignificant. And by Bronze, walking distance from pit to wood isn't yet that great.

2) Fastboom. Please. People were storage pitting first for YEARS. This is not "your" strat, it was posted on GX forums a gazillion times and dismissed by the experts on the board. On a map like medit, you can storage pit first and get 40 vills/boats in 14 mins to bronze every time. Too bad it's very easy to tell when someone SP'ed first (look at achievements) and you will die terribly to a tool rush without enough real villagers. No reals left = no scout ships = end of game.

You have resorted so many times to excuses as to why your "fastboom" doesn't work. Well, let me tell you something (Phoe doesn't chop as fast after the 1.0b patch! Bullshit...), you can still do a SP first with Roman or Minoan and get decent times to Bronze (on Medit or Conti). Problem is the strat SUCKS. No way any idiot on those maps is going to let someone boom for that long. You will get hit by scout ships in Tool and you won't be able to compete because you have less woodies. Oops, there goes your fishing fleet and now you're down to 20 vills. Or you will get hit by axers in Tool and again you will be hurt more because you'll have less woodies. In any case, if anyone attacks you before 15:00, you are dead. Also, your "fastboom" would get killed on inland in regular AoE too, because people could shorefish their way to 12:00 bronzes back then. And AoE Minoa has no answer to an Assyrian bowman rush (send in two armored bowmen, pass to Bronze before 14:00). None.

Now, in the days of the old shang, you could almost SP *and* almost get continuous vill production. That's because old Shang only needed 10 food to get villie 9 out of the TC. Not anymore, though. And hardly the strongest strat for that civ.

As for your other "trademark" strats like the 16 minute iron or whatnot...it is possible (but hardly likely given a normal map and normal opponents) to get a 16 minute iron, but you will die anyway because you will not have any resources to build any units. 10 CAs kill 1 HA every day of the week. 10 galleys kill one trireme (and your entire fishing fleet) every day of the week too. The only time the fast iron works is if you have an ally slingshotting you to Iron and feeding you resources to build HAs. Otherwise, forget it.

In summary, unless you're playing with a bunch of rooks, you will get hit before 15:00 on all maps with your boom strats. And your strats will all collapse, making them useless.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-27-04 04:07 PM ET (US)     175 / 263       
RomanGladius:
1. I agree, normally assy would be better than phoenie. However, Duan Xuan gets good times with roman and bad with assy. I'm guessing he chops too far from his pit. Phoenie's wood capacity helps with that, and unlike roman they do have CAs.

2. 12 mins mino bronze 40ish vills+boats, dock-block to prevent tool rushes (defend w/SS), plenty res for compies. Make more vills in tool, you can still sink any non-naval civ such as assy or shang. Only problem is vs naval civs such as hittite, mino, yammy, then maybe forget bronze and turn all that food into a monster tool rush. Think 40 axers.

3. SF to bronze = small econ. FBs still own them.

4. Shang does just as well with smoked meat as berry first.

5. 16 min iron was with phoenie on coastal, well over 100 vills/boats, dock-block, option to stop at 8 min tool or 11 min bronze and use all that econ there instead. Pump eles out of 10 stables @ 16 mins and seeing the reaction was glorious. Maybe palmy can do similar, with their wood rate and the small number of early vills, I'll have to find out when I come out of retirement...

6. Attack before 15 mins? Even if they bronze in 12 they can't get CAs to you until you have two batches of impies, and compie upgrade almost done. Cavs or any tool units die at the dock-block. If you can't dock-block, house wall.

7. This thread is supposed to be about Duan Xuan and hills, neither of which has anything to do with any of the above strats. So let's talk about CA rushes and stuff.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-27-04 08:04 PM ET (US)     176 / 263       
The funniest thing to me when I joined this forum over four years ago was the guy named "wedsaz" and all of his strategies that I knew didn't make sense because I had played the game for six months online.

Since then, I have played for another four years and wedsaz has played online twice, me being there for both events. I have watched him give advice to countless people on this forum to players who have little experience, and truly want to learn.

The same thing always happens. It takes the players little time to realize that Minoan Fastboom can't win on the Zone and Persia is a sucky civ. What is even funnier is that wedsaz would know this IF HE WOULD HAVE PLAYED ONE GAME FOR EVERY ONE HUNDRED POSTS OF HIM GIVING ADVICE.

Wedsaz seems to remain here years after he last played this game to offer advice that isn't valid or in the least bit helpful. Why don't you just start playing again........


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
Dangrimm
Clubman
posted 04-28-04 01:14 AM ET (US)     177 / 263       
What I want to know is what civ. is best to tool rush with, I originally thought assy or shang (vil bonus and archer fire), but then again ,theres romans with cheap buildings, so can barracks and range quicker, or maybe hittites ,because of bonus archer damage, or persian because of hunting, perhaps even phoe because of wood gather, or yamato for an affordable scout rush. Please tell, because i'm perfecting my tool rush
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-28-04 12:49 PM ET (US)     178 / 263       
BlitzkreigComin:
I played about as many games as I've made posts here. I can't "just" get back on the zone. The few times I could get back on the zone, I did.

Dangrimm:
Many of them are good, it depends on your skills and what you're trying to do.

Assy and phoenie's bonuses don't help that much in tool.
Persian and palmy take some getting used to. Skip.
Hittite and yammy's are specialized and predictable.
Babs and mace are too slow to bronze if you miss your chance.

Minoan (w/berry start) is strong on the sea and might have extra fish for tool rushing, but I'm not sure.

Roman or shang have resources and flexibility. Later if you develop a specialty you can look at other civs.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-28-04 02:20 PM ET (US)     179 / 263       
wedsaz:

You haven't played since 1998 (or earlier) except twice. You have posted here over a thousand times since then. You have no idea how the game is played. It really is that simple.

Dangrimm:

The best place to look at best rush civs is to see what elite players pick in 1v1's, which is tool rushing at it's finest.

The overall objective is to get upgraded clubbers into opponent's woodies before they have a chance to wall. Stable and archery units can be added later, but the rush has to be started with the clubber. This means it is almost mandatory that you get two-three barracks close to opponent's woodies.

There are three civs that can be competitive:

1) Yamato: villagers are the ultimate unit in Tool Rushes, and Yam has some great advantages:
a) Yam villagers run down opponent villagers and kill them if they stumble into your base.
b) Yam villagers can outrun axers to safety without sacrificing several villagers.
c) Yam villagers can serve as scouts chasing villagers, as your axers follow. This never allows enemy villagers to get to safety.
d) Yam villagers can make walking a little farther to shore fish and stragglers.
e) Yam has excellent military bonuses in late Tool with Scouts and Scout Ships.
f) Yam can dominate once it reaches Bronze to finish off Tool armies with cheap Cav and totally dominate War Galleys vs. Scout Ships

2) Shang: the standard 20 villager Tool means that Shang gets a savings of 170 food (17 created villagers). This gives Shang consistancy in fast times, however you live and die by this. Shang gets weaker as Yamato gets stronger in prolonged Tool wars due to Yam military bonuses. Shang also misses those really important villager bonuses mentioned above. Shang can start booming villagers faster than Yam in mid-Tool..... all things being equal (which in mid-Tool it is almost never equal).

3) Roman: villagers can pit faster and get barracks up faster, giving romans competitive times with Shang and Yam. I think they are overmatched against Yam and Shang, but can compete. Cheap towers can create interesting situations as gameplay continues in Tool.

Any other civ is just suicide. I played around with a 12 villager Palmy rush for several months and it is just too unpredictable. Persia sux, Phoenician's bonus isn't as good as Yam/Shang/Roman, and Assy really needs Slingers to compete against the big three.

Hittite and Mino are dead against good Yam/Shang players because they are simply way too slow-- have no advantage against these fast civs until mid Tool. Clubbers will be all over them too fast to survive to see civ bonuses.

So the ultimate question is Yam vs. Shang. I take Yam, I think most elite players take Yam, yet I know a few that will take Shang everytime and maximize their Tool times to put Yammy to the test.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
PL Guderian
Clubman
posted 04-28-04 02:55 PM ET (US)     180 / 263       
A few days ago, I played a game with a few people. It was 2 on 2, Stone Age, low resources, and no reveal map. I thought I was going to die without my rush techinque. So, I took my time, and advanced to the Tool Age within 15 minutes. Then, I started to wall up. as I was walling up, enemy calvaly attacked my villagers mining gold. I counter-attacked, and defeated the horses until more came. I knew then, I had to retreat. So, I retreated to where my ally also had settled because he was attacked, too. So, we had some peace, and finaly, salvation came. It turned out the fourth guy, and enemy, thought he could defeat his own ally and us. So, he turned on my enemy, and attacked my other enemy. He retreated to my oringinal base and fortified it. He wanted us as an ally and we allied with him to defeat the other guy. So, since it was 3 on 1, we defeated the other person and won. That was my first experience with an RM game.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-28-04 03:38 PM ET (US)     181 / 263       
BlitzkreigComin:
You haven't played before 1998, when the average player on the zone was better than you are now. I played thousands of games at that time, and the only thing that changed is the good players left. You came too late to even see how the game is played.

Yammy's scouts and villies both die easily vs bowmen.

Shang could use the food and tool with 24 villies. Or, on a water map they could invest the villie time in FBs, and have much more than 170f over yammy.

Mino has two advantages vs the fast civs before mid tool - scout ships and fishing boats. You just don't know how to use them.

You're not a good enough econ manager to use persia and palmy.

Sounds like the "elite" players you're talking about are the inters of my day, who didn't know how to boom to tool.


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 04-28-04 04:25 PM ET (US)     182 / 263       
009. Gosh, some people have got a nerve.
Centurion
Clubman
posted 04-28-04 04:38 PM ET (US)     183 / 263       
Yes I know, thank you peter.

GlobalChimp
I don't cry. But my guitar does.
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-28-04 05:20 PM ET (US)     184 / 263       
wedsaz:

LOL

Do we need to have another "Wedsaz show up to the Zone to back up your talk" moment?

I know you suck. I know you haven't played this game since players got good at it. TO STAY HERE FOR SIX YEARS AFTER YOU LAST PLAYED THE GAME COMPETITIVELY AND OFFER BS ADVICE PROVES WHAT A DUMBASS YOU ARE.

If you ever played this game, you would know you can not dock before hitting the Tool button against anybody with mediocre skill level. Mino is a great rook civ, and that is all you ever were.... a mediocre rook, with a know it all attitude. Pit start Mino or your 24 vill Shang die to any rusty intermediate player using Yam/Rome doing a "standard" rush.

If you want to start talking garbage, who have you ever played that would say you were a good player. I used to jokingly ask any old player if they heard of the great "wedsaz" from AOEH. Nobody ever remembered you, or anyone with an "unbeatable Minoan fastboom". I've played with all the elite players... from oldschoolers like Matty-Stalin to the "new schoolers" like Goldy, Puma, Trent, Nisvet, Merlin, Dakatou, LORD, and by the way I know where oldschoolers fit in when they came back.

Why do you still come here? THERE HASN'T BEEN ONE SINGLE PLAYER EVER HERE THAT RESPECTED YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE AN OUT OF TOUCH KNOW-IT-ALL. Never has anybody come here and receieved anything useful from you. It is always the same BS you spew about "I can do Mino fastboom." or "I can hunt with Persia." Quit reading Civ bonuses out of books and remembering how you beat players with 15 minutes of RTS experience. Go be a miserable rook on the Zone so you can learn for yourself what these thousands of posts you have graced us with here is really good for. IT IS ABSOLUTELY USELESS.

LOSER!

LOL


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-28-04 06:20 PM ET (US)     185 / 263       
BlitzkreigComin:
Again, there is no need to shout.

If you had good wood skills and did a pit start with the right civ (mino, shang, persian) you'd hit the tool button at 7 mins without ever touching berries. By 9 mins you'd have more food than any berry start.

Odds are those players don't remember everyone who ever beat them. I only played for fun, so they wouldn't have seen me at any tournaments or ladders, nor did I join any clan - I was offered to, but I turned them down.

Some players took my strats and did well with them. Others took my advice and improved strats that weren't mine. You seem to have a problem with that - does everyone have to play the same way you do?


Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-28-04 06:23 PM ET (US)     186 / 263       
BlitzkreigComin:
Oh, one more thing. You could be playing on the zone right now, so why are you still here?

Free Puzzle Games

UrMud - online community in an ancient history world
Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 04-28-04 06:48 PM ET (US)     187 / 263       
Ok, people, back to your corners, and let's have a clean fight. No biting, gouging, or kicking each other in the nuts

Seconds out, round two.


*wonders why wedsaz and blitz can't play on IP and settle this. Hell, I'll host it*


My Karma ran over my Dogma

AoEH | EEH | RoNH | IndividualsCAN

[This message has been edited by Phill Phree (edited 04-28-2004 @ 06:49 PM).]

PL Guderian
Clubman
posted 04-28-04 07:31 PM ET (US)     188 / 263       
Let's get together and apologize. Wedsaz, try to play some more to get good. And Blitz, you can tell Wedsaz is not a good player by just saying it without the comments and put-downs. Come on, we are not little children. Hey... I sound like a parent.
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-28-04 08:04 PM ET (US)     189 / 263       
wedsaz:

I take no offense to someone playing different than me. What I take offense to is someone maintaining an arguement for over four years on alleged strategies to win. I shout at you because you are incredibly stupid because it has never ever ever sunk in.

Every expert has been frustrated through the years posting here because you are full of useless information. You constantly defend your strategies saying that it is the player's problem, not yours, if your superior strategies don't work.

Twice you have shown up to hostile crowds on the Zone and flopped miserably. Both times players were tired of you insulting their gameplay on these forums, because you had these "great" strategies. We saw that you had no talent, your strategies were not practical, yet you were back here offering advice on this game the next day.

For what, five years? you have said that you can't play this game because you don't have Windows. I think I have owned six computers since then. You have never had an opportunity to have a computer with this game loaded on it for several years?

I really don't care why you don't want to play this game. If you could play, I wouldn't mind beating you as many times as you would like. But the reality is you don't want to play, just offer advice on how to play.

I have been more than gracious in helping players here learn the game better. I don't know how many things I have been in the middle of: forum leagues, forum Zone nights, Zone chat with forumers helping them. Several games on the Zone helping forumers. I have even had phone calls with several players (two were old forumers) helping them work on their game.

There has always been one constant though-- I have always proved my comments and strategies on the battlefield. You have not. I have played so many players in this game I am scared to add them up. You spew out the fact that you played "thousands" of games, which is a flat out lie. I have played this game so much over the past few years that I know hundreds of players, yes hundreds. I can log onto the Zone any day at any time and know several players.

I know you are a liar and didn't play the game that much because you have/had no friends. If you played a thousand games, that is a thousand hours of your life that you can't account for. Not one person that can come forward and say "Oh yeah, that wedsaz was a player back in the good old days. He played the game a lot."

Instead, we have seen countless Zone players stop by here and notice what a dumbass you are and see little value in staying around here to post. That is why there isn't any good players that post here. You seem to want to challenge every strategy and idea, but back nothing up. So players have never bothered posting a lot here because it is useless to argue with you.

This quote sums everything up about you in this forum, "Don't teach pigs to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pigs." Most people have been smart enough to realize that posting here is a waste of time arguing with you.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?

[This message has been edited by BlitzkreigComin (edited 04-28-2004 @ 08:05 PM).]

Dangrimm
Clubman
posted 04-29-04 00:11 AM ET (US)     190 / 263       
Quote: Dangrimm:
The barrack or wall strategies don't work so well vs real players. So if you ever want to play on the zone, you'd better practice other strategies.

Endquote.

Hahaha, I just read that post from a while back,wedsaz, ive had more experience with age of empires than you could dream of. I started playing when the demo came out on a demo CD, bought it as soon as i found in shops, and started playing on the zone. I became a zone player at the game when I was about 10, and expert whe I was about 11, on the zone, playing RM. I wasnt the most well known person because I didnt play thousands of games because I was only allowed 1 hour on the net a day (good old hourly rates!), but I was probably better than you would ever be, managing 12 mins bronze with yamato and cav. rushing opponents at 12:30 or so, so I am not a noob, I was merely saying what happened when vs. computers.

Also, to prove to Blitz that you are not all piss and wind (I admit i am right now, cos I dont zone much these days), go and take out some experts with your awesome persian time, and show us some screenies.

Dr Lorenzo
AOEH Seraph
posted 04-29-04 01:40 AM ET (US)     191 / 263       
Okay, any more of this and we'll close the thread. So everyone, back off

DR LORENZO
AoEH | Woad Creations Alumni
I of course meant bastard in a positive way! - Kor
I just sort of chop away at it when it gets long enough. The ladies love it. - Obese, on shaving
Lorenzo is kind of like that relative everyone knows about but won't talk about. - Crimson Knight
We already knew about the mass murders and gang rapes and ethnic cleansings, but now they've resorted to ENCRYPTING PEOPLES ELECTRONIC DOCUMENTS! - drahnier
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-29-04 05:18 AM ET (US)     192 / 263       
Cut it out guys. Enough already. I don't need you two to start a flamewar in my thread. I didn't start this so that you two could argue over who is better or whose strategy works. I started this thread to learn how to play RM Hill better. I will try out anyone's strategy and use the one that works best for me.

I suppose I'll let you two cool down for a while. I haven't been playing much recently anyway, so I don't have any screenshots to post or new questions to ask.


D XUAN

[This message has been edited by Duan Xuan (edited 04-29-2004 @ 05:19 AM).]

RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-29-04 05:48 AM ET (US)     193 / 263       
Well, the rise of nations x-pack is being released tomorrow, so I'm going back to that game now. Great game, by the way, for those of you who want semi-fast action with the ability to boom. Good to see Blitz still chugging along, and wedsaz still exagerating as well as ever with the 9 min, 40 vil tool times and the 20 tower strategy. The more things change, the more they remain the same.
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 04-29-04 10:43 AM ET (US)     194 / 263       
Actually it matters a lot if you play with reveal map on. Bronzing in 12.5 minutes in hills with Shang with 20 vils is easy then - all it takes is getting used to scanning the map quickly at game start to even improve it.
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-29-04 10:53 AM ET (US)     195 / 263       
Indeed, I find that with reveal on, Tool rushes happen more often. Everyone can see where the strategic locations are and will fight to control them, leading to early fighting. I've had this happening to me more than I'd like to for my reveal map games. Which is why I prefer to have no reveal... You are able to accurately see how much your opponent has explored and with no reveal, fewer people dare to take the risk of rushing.

D XUAN
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-29-04 12:48 PM ET (US)     196 / 263       
BlitzkreigComin:
My strategies worked for me, so of course I'll defend them. If you don't want to hear about them, don't bring them up.

This argument can't be resolved today. I'll spare the other forummers from the rest of this post. So let's park it.

Dangrimm:
Be patient my friend. When I'm back in shape, you'll see those screenshots.

AoE supposedly already runs on linux, just so sluggish it's useless (directx problems). However, that means we're very close to a linux AoE, and to me being back on the zone.

Duan Xuan:
Very well said.

RomanGladius:
Have fun, but don't forget to drop in every so often.

PL Guderian
Clubman
posted 04-29-04 03:40 PM ET (US)     197 / 263       
Good, this is resolved.
Andrea Rosa
Clubman
posted 04-29-04 07:42 PM ET (US)     198 / 263       

Quoted from Duan:

Which is why I prefer to have no reveal... You are able to accurately see how much your opponent has explored and with no reveal, fewer people dare to take the risk of rushing.

I agree. Reveal Map goes against the spirit of the game. And it's not realistic. Unless we imagine Caesar receiving satellite images before planning a campaign

It should be used only for DM (and I hate DM)

Boys, I really SUCK in multiplayer but, when I host a game, I never reveal the map, no matter what other players say. It's my favourite rule, probably the one that allow me to win, sometimes...


Andrea Rosa
My only fear is to be left without beer

AoE Last Resort | Quake II: Citadel
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-30-04 06:51 AM ET (US)     199 / 263       
Receiving satellite images?... LOL.

Same here, Andrea. The games that I host are ones with default settings. Things like reveal map and full tech tree are merely for the convenience of players. They don't have to spend time exploring, probably showing that they are weak in micromanagement. Full tech tree is the stupidest of all options, I think. I met a player who insisted on playing with full tech tree once, and I simply left the game. He was probably even worse than me in the game...


D XUAN
Duan Xuan
Clubman
posted 04-30-04 12:37 PM ET (US)     200 / 263       
Ok... I really can't believe that we could've lost that game just now...

It was a 2v2, me as blue partnering orange. I chose Roman to try out the swordsman rush. I knew that red was more or less an inter or expert so I thought I'd get rid of him as early as possible in the game.

I decided to Tool rush him instead. I Tooled at the same time as red and pumped out a mixture of clubbies, slingers and archers from my forward barracks and ranges. I attacked red's woodies and caught him completely by surprise. Of course, I didn't manage to wipe out his economy. He escaped with quite a lot of woodies and I was unable to pursue further. His archers were coming out to attack my rush force. In the end I lost this force but I thought the rush was sufficient in slowing him down already. He also started to concentrate on his military. He pumped out a lot of archers to attack my forward buildings. I didn't really bother because I had another forward front full of barracks and stables. I attacked him yet again with my broadies (we both Bronzed awfully late) but this time he was better prepared...

I had told my partner to do a follow up on my Tool rush when he reached Bronze but apparently he was slow in doing so... maybe he paid too much attention to green. Sigh, in the end we were still unable to check red's booming, though we had destroyed much of green's econ.

Still, I thought we were still able to curb red, until green attacked me in my weak flank. Again, this showed that I wasn't paying enough attention to my flanks. I walled up but I completely forgot about the possibility that green could be building up just outside my base... In the end he entered and destroyed my base with lots of CAs and STs... I was caught napping and lost almost all of my villies. I tributed everything I had to my partner and resigned... Another sad story...

Screenshots here.

I did a bit of reflection and thought... maybe my Tool rush wasn't early enough? Should I have used a scout to search for red's fleeing villies? Was it my partner's fault too that he was slow in following up to attack red? I don't know... I still feel that our main opportunity lay in the start of the game after my rush. I did kill at least 10 villies there. Of course, what really caused my direct defeat was me neglecting to defend outside of my walls. That was plain stupid... I must do something about it in the future... Can't afford to lose good games because of something as silly as this.


D XUAN
« Previous Page  1 2 3 4 5 6  Next Page »
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires Heaven | HeavenGames