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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Why isn't the Rookie Room a Rookie Room?
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Topic Subject:Why isn't the Rookie Room a Rookie Room?
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Hemlock
Clubman
(id: S_Hemlock)
posted 03-05-99 09:42 PM ET (US)         
After popping into the zone periodically over the past several months, I finally gathered the courage to join my first game. It ended up being a 3v3 in which most of the players definitely were NOT rookies. I ended up being a liability to my team, and we lost. (Did we lose *because* of me? I don't know.)

In this forum, when reading posts about games that have been played (which I really enjoy), there seems to be an attitude about 'Those stupid newbies/rookies who didn't help me at all.' As one of the aforementioned newbies/rookies, I'm almost afraid to join another game, for fear of not being good enough for my teammates or being nothing but cannon fodder in a ffa.

Do the users of this forum use the Rookie Room as a gathering place for games? If so, why? Why not use the intermediate or advanced rooms?

AuthorReplies:
FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 03-08-99 07:07 PM ET (US)     26 / 75       
yeah, Thorfinn thats what i ment, tell the players before the launch, and see if they still want to play....

Keep your stick of the ice. j/k

[This message has been edited by FanatiC KaBaN (edited 03-08-99).]

Hemlock
Clubman
(id: S_Hemlock)
posted 03-08-99 09:12 PM ET (US)     27 / 75       
King Crash,

"I think the main problem is that there are too many rookie rooms. People always hop into the rookie rooms first which means those are the only ones that are full (except maybe on a Sunday night).
I think the number of rookie rooms should be reduced and more intermediate rooms should be opened. especially when a game has been around as long as AOE, there is a lot less need for so many rookie rooms."

I couldn't disagree with you more. The times that I've been to the zone, the rookie rooms are nearly full, while the int and exp rooms have just a few people. Reducing the number of rookie rooms will only force the rookies into the upper level rooms. I think not allowing access to the rookie rooms once you have played 20 games and win at least half of them would be a better solution. This is still imperfect at best, it would not prevent smurfing. A better solution would be for people to willingly go to the rooms that best reflect their rating.

"On a side note, Hemlock, you state you tooled in 11 and Bronzed in 18, despite tool rushing and scouting prolificly. I know of NO rookies that could do the same."

I meant those times to be rough approximations only. While +/- 2 minutes makes _all_ the difference in expert games, it makes almost no difference in rookie games. I apologize if I misled you. (Geez, I'm sounding like Microsoft. "No your honor, we only meant the videotape to be an illustration of our lab results.") Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but 3 bowmen at yellow and 2 scouts at green doesn't really qualify as a "rush" does it?

I suspect that there are many definitions of what a "Rookie" really is. I include myself in that category for several reasons:

1. I had absolute no defenses at my tc. No wall, no towers, not even a military building. Anyone who was not a rookie would have been all over me like Bill Clinton on an intern. (Good thing no one else did any scouting.)
2. Too much waste. ie. Not keeping the tc queued up, forgetting about villagers, not building the barracks while tooling, etc.
3. If the game gets into late bronze or especially iron, I'm as good as dead. I'm terrible at trying to control large armies while keeping my economy going. (DOS multitasks better than I do.)
4. I don't have a clear understanding of how to counter all the units. (Learning quickly by reading this forum, though.)

While I'm not necessarily a rookie at the game itself, I do consider myself a rookie at multiplayer games. (Maybe an "advanced rookie?") If I'm still winning after I've played a few more games, then I'll consider myself a "beginning intermediate" and change my games from "rookie only" to "no experts."

To all others:
I would never think of joining an "expert" or "good players" game, and judging by the comments made here, I don't think there are many experts who would join a "rookies" game. The game I referred to in my original post was not labeled as either, so I figure I got what I deserved. By the same token, if the other players were upset that a rookie had joined their unlabeled game in a rookie room, well, they got what they deserved too.

Boneser again
Clubman
posted 03-09-99 04:47 AM ET (US)     28 / 75       
I keep coming back to this thread. S.Hemlock ,after reading your your last post I just had to toss in another few cents worth. Firstly, I do like your attitude towards the game. Serious about learning the intricacies but able to joke about it too. Secondly though, a couple of your comments border slightly on the naive side. Please dont take offense but how many multiplayer zone games have you played? I refer to your comment that less rookie rooms would have rookies spilling into expert rooms. Trust me when I say that players of all calibers use the rookie rooms. The same goes for your "experts in rookie rooms" comment. While not an expert, I have gone into rookie games just for a change of pace from getting killed all the time. I never take advantage and sometimes do a little coaching if the person is truly raw. But I have also gotten whupped by good players in rookie labelled games also. So please dont take everything on the zone at face value. People looking for a game will obviously go where the most players are, so what they should do is remove the room labels altogether. They really have no meaning.
Lastly ,your comment on rushing. I really dont believe that how many units you attack with is what determines a rush( as in 3 bowmen or 2 scouts). If your economy is further advanced than your opponent and your initial attack is with units that are more advanced than your opponents' then, technically, you are rushing.
I may be slightly off on this and correct me guys if I am. But yes, 3 bowmen and 2 scouts can do an awful lot of damage if sent at the right time, as most of us well know. Anyway, I think I can remember the euphoria you are feeling with playing your first multiplayer AoE. It certainly took over my life for a while. As I said before, with the right players the game can't be beat but getting that perfect combination on the zone can be a daunting task at times. Good luck and maybe I'll see you out there if I get my nerve back to play again.
Spam
Clubman
posted 03-09-99 10:32 AM ET (US)     29 / 75       
I sure wouldn't like to be a rookie in this game at the moment. Face it, lots and lots of people have played this game for a year and a half, with perhaps 1000 multiplayer games behind them. And in this type of game, experience is everything. The disparity of skill could probably not be greater. Rookies should know that they are just speed bumps to hundreds of players on the Zone - there's no point in trying to hide this fact. You cannot pick up a new game and expect to immediately reach the same level of skill as people who have such a head start. Furthermore, since the "experts" have such a head start, you can expect to stay a rookie for quite some time, relatively speaking.

The reason "experts" don't want rookies in their games is simple: its just not fun for anybody - the "experts" are put at an unfair disadvantage, and the rookies get humiliated. This has nothing to do with elitism - we have all been rookies, after all. It simply has to do with enjoying the game. Most people do NOT enjoy playing 3v1 because their partners didn't have a clue what they were doing (even if they cannot be blamed for not having a clue). Furthermore, when you play people too far ahead of you in skill, you won't learn anything from it - you'll just make up an excuse ("I was rushed") and blame the game or something.

My 2 cents

Spam

Barbarosa
Clubman
posted 03-09-99 12:11 PM ET (US)     30 / 75       
    I also agree with Sting, and even more, here's what I did once when I got really frustrated because of this. I had hosted a few games called "Experienced Only", and got mostly rookies to join in. I was really annoyed at this, and started semi-flooding the main with messages like "ALL INTERMEDIATE AND EXPERT PLAYERS PLEASE GO TO THE APPROPRIATE ROOMS", but absolutely none took notice of it. I was more than annoyed at that point, and almost decided to drop Zone games forever. I even did so for a week or two... I guess I was too naive I would get anyone interested in going to the Expert rooms, but I was ready to do anything at that point.


~Vulcan_RedBeard~
The Vulcan Clan   UIN: 10903609

FWH_Foistie
Inactive
posted 03-09-99 01:21 PM ET (US)     31 / 75       
Kudos to you S_Hemlock for starting a very enjoyable and refreshing thread. Your initial post as well as your 'game synopsis' are both well written, humble, and entertaining; thereby leading to generally strong and positive responses by the forerunners. Most have appreciated the 'tone ' set by your initial post and have responded accordingly.

Many of us look back fondly on our rookie days. Each day, indeed each game provided a new avenue of surprise, expectation and discovery. Your 'game synopsis brings back some very good memories. Some of my fondest memories are of '2-3 hour marathon' games which would only last 30 to 40 minutes now.
So, Hemlock, my man, it's a good time to be a rookie.

--Foistie

FWH_Foistie
Inactive
posted 03-09-99 01:23 PM ET (US)     32 / 75       
-

[This message has been edited by FWH_Foistie (edited 03-09-99).]

FWH_Foistie
Inactive
posted 03-09-99 01:27 PM ET (US)     33 / 75       
-

[This message has been edited by FWH_Foistie (edited 03-09-99).]

FWH_Foistie
Inactive
posted 03-09-99 01:28 PM ET (US)     34 / 75       
Foistie promises to never ever again hit the 'back' button when posting...... :-|

[This message has been edited by FWH_Foistie (edited 03-09-99).]

O_Captian
Inactive
posted 03-09-99 01:47 PM ET (US)     35 / 75       
I think one of the problems with label such as rookies or experts is that there is no clear cut definition of what they are. I play several games titled expert and win, however I feel that I'm far from being an expert. I have played w/ some experts and it is a humbling experience.

So here are some clues that you may be a rookie:

1. You always say gogogo and never read game settings.

2. To improve bronze times you increase game speed to 2.0.

3. You think slow civs include shang, assy, yammy and phoen.

4. Repeating the same taunt over and over is cool.

5. Ask for cheats and reveal settings.

6. When the game starts (not in the settings window but actual game) ask where everyone is from.

7. Attack w/ 4 axeman and 3 scouts against your iron enemy.

8. Play a 3v3 and win without ever fighting or seeing anyone.

9. You can't beat the computer without atleast one "big daddy".

10. You don't know how people get multiple TC's.

Bonus: You don't know what a TC is.

This is just poking fun. Couldn't resist.

[This message has been edited by O_Captian (edited 03-09-99).]

Scarab
Clubman
posted 03-09-99 04:16 PM ET (US)     36 / 75       
Great list Capt.

According to your list, I'm only a 10% rookie. (#10) You forgot #11 - - chatting to everyone instead of just your allies.

I haven't been in the zone, or in any multi-player game for that matter, but the practice against the comp at hard/hardest settings with an increased pop limit has helped my tactics. Most of that is info that I've gotten from this forum and the AOEH site. I consider myself to be a compitent player, but completely green when it comes to non-AI opponents. If/when I start playing in the Zone, I wouldn't mind if a more experienced player was in a rookie/newbie room. You can learn just as much having a seasoned ally as you can getting smoked by a veteran. Just my opinion.

I almost forgot, Rookies/Newbies do not belong playing in rooms/games that are listed expert/experienced players only.
------------------
"What a waste it is to lose one's mind.
Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful.
How true that is."
- Vice President Dan Quayle

[This message has been edited by Scarab (edited 03-09-99).]

AlphaPeon
Inactive
posted 03-09-99 04:25 PM ET (US)     37 / 75       
Wow that must be a record, a quadrouple post by foistie(dont think i spelled that right...)

AlphaPeon

Staffa
Inactive
posted 03-09-99 04:32 PM ET (US)     38 / 75       
About #10, I think he meant via building a gov center. Ie, your a rookie if you dont realize that building a gov center allows you to build multipile TC's. I do not believe he was refering to the bug, as that wouldnt make much sense.


Otherwise, the list is mostly a judge of wether or not your a lamer, ive known 13 year old pricks guilty of most of those things in the list who were no rookies, just really really annoying.

Rip_Tide_99
Inactive
posted 03-09-99 04:48 PM ET (US)     39 / 75       
You know what I can't stand? It's when you host a game and clearly write '1.5 speed' in the settings. Then, when the game starts, these little @#$%'s keep changing it to 2.0

I have no problem with 2.0 speed, but when I host I prefer to set it to 1.5

Yes, you can probably guess I play in the rookie rooms.

Scarab
Clubman
posted 03-09-99 05:02 PM ET (US)     40 / 75       
hahaha...I understand about 'rule #10' now. I guess that I'm a 0% rookie then.

Instead of a 'big daddy', about 15 photon men do the trick

RomanWahoo
Inactive
posted 03-09-99 05:02 PM ET (US)     41 / 75       
I heard that in AoK you can finalize the game speed in the room, so that'll eliminate all those @!#$ who jacks up the speed to 2.0
Hemlock
Clubman
(id: S_Hemlock)
posted 03-09-99 08:40 PM ET (US)     42 / 75       
Boneser,

"Firstly, I do like your attitude towards the
game. Serious about learning the intricacies but able to joke about it too."

Thank you. Sadly, many people (IMO) take gaming way too seriously. Hurling insults and taunting others is not my idea of fun. (The above comments apply when playing with strangers. With friends, well now, that's another story...)

"Secondly though, a couple of your comments border slightly on the naive side."

I reserve the right to be as naive as I want to be. That's one of the benefits of being a rookie.

"Please dont take offense but how many multiplayer zone games have you played?"

Only two. That's why I hang out in the rookie room. No offense taken. (My naivete prevents me from being offended.)

"I refer to your comment that less rookie rooms would have rookies spilling into expert rooms. Trust me when I say that players of all calibers use the rookie rooms."

I understand that all players use the rookie rooms. My point was that by reducing the number of rookie rooms, all the rookie, intermediate, and expert players that would have been in that room will now migrate up to an intermediate or expert room. It doesn't change the problem at all. (Other than there would be intermediate and/or expert player complaining about all the rookie players in their rooms.) I think it is unrealistic to expect the intermediate and expert player to start going to their rooms just because the number of rookie rooms has been reduced.

"I never take advantage and sometimes do a little coaching if the person is truly raw."

You are a true sportsman. There are so few left...

"People looking for a game will obviously go where the most players are, so what they should do is remove the room labels altogether. They really have no meaning."

I agree that the labels have no meaning. What seems to have happened is that instead of using the different levels of rooms, players go into whatever room they feel like, and title their game "experts only" or "rookies only" depending on their level of play. I think MS did a decent job of setting up the structure of the zone. (With multiple rooms for different levels of players.) It's just that the players there have not followed that structure.

I disagree with your solution. As the zone gets more crowded, removing the room labels would make it more difficult to find opponents at your level. (Removing the room labels would be somewhat akin to legalizing drugs because our enforcement is inadequate.) Maybe as the zone population grows, people will get more frustrated at trying to find an appropriate level of competition, and naturally migrate to the room that best reflect their level of play. I sure hope so.

[Regarding the above comment about legalizing drugs: I am not expressing an opinion either for or against the legalization of drugs. (I do have an opinion, just not expressing it.) I am merely pointing out that (IMO) inability to enforce a law is not enough reason to repeal it. I believe that MS's intended structure of the zone is superior to the (lack of) structure that has taken hold. I don't think they should they abandon that structure just because few people follow it.]

Note: While I do think that it would be better if players went to their own rooms, I really don't feel all that strongly about it. I've learned how it works on the zone, and I can live with it. I continue to post becasue I find the conversation interesting and educational.

Boneser again
Clubman
posted 03-10-99 02:06 AM ET (US)     43 / 75       
Fair enough. I'm kinda naive myself most of the time. We should try a game together sometime. Are you playing Age or Rome and what room do you usually hang out in? I'm generally able to play anytime of the day as long as I'm not working. My Zone name is Boneser.
O_Captian
Inactive
posted 03-10-99 10:37 AM ET (US)     44 / 75       
I just love these bonding moments...
hydarnes
Clubman
posted 03-24-99 01:01 PM ET (US)     45 / 75       
I can't stand it either.

#1 I create a room.
#2 I call it "beginers only"
#3 I put the settings on top. this is what I say "beginners only, don't you dare join if your not beginner!, random map, coastal. if you are not a beginner there will be severe consiquences"
#4 The people are liars
#5 I get defeated

now of course I'm not a beginner, but I did that because when I would say "rookies only" they would all be liars. THIS MUST BE STOPED!

O_Captian
Inactive
posted 03-24-99 01:06 PM ET (US)     46 / 75       
That's funny Hydarnes, I do the same thing but for some reason I win. ROFL. Get those skills up! (Actually I havent played in the rookie rooms for quite some time).

------------------
He who has the last peon standing, wins!

JimboT
Inactive
posted 03-26-99 07:15 PM ET (US)     47 / 75       
I think that whether or not you are a rookie depends on your self rating. Do you think you are a rookie? Do you think you are an expert? I think I am mediocre-rookie.(sp?) I think rooms should be based on rating or tool/bronze/iron/ time.

------------------

quote:
"Veni, vidi, vici."

I came, I saw, I conquered.
Destroyer_B
Clubman
posted 03-26-99 07:23 PM ET (US)     48 / 75       
I think the main reason most people in the rookie room are'nt rookies are that the rooms designated for intermediates or experts dont have enough people in them. I rarely see 10 people in the expert rooms. I myself aren't a rookie but i go into the rookie rooms to play if the other rooms are full or dont have enough people.
Hironori
Inactive
posted 03-27-99 01:30 AM ET (US)     49 / 75       
Stopped has two "p"s.

The rookie room is not a rookie room because no one on the internet has respect for the rules. This is an obvious detriment to those of you who are just starting out and seek to honestly better yourselves. It is ufortunate that mean, predatorial experts who should be content with their level of skill do not ALL move to the expert rooms. Then there would be people there, Destroyer_B. S_Hemlock, I sympathize. It is unfortunate. But, as they say, sic semper tyrannis.

[This message has been edited by Hironori (edited 03-27-99).]

[This message has been edited by Hironori (edited 03-27-99).]

Sergei_Makarov
Inactive
posted 03-27-99 07:27 PM ET (US)     50 / 75       
It's true - nobody respects the "Rookies Only" game rooms, but I thing that rookies should loosen up about this. Playing against better will provide most usefull in learning the game. If you keep playing games against newbies such as yourself, you are barely going to improve.

I lost probably about 10 games in the beginning, and the progress that I made in the Rookie Rooms prompted me to play rated.

My message to rookies is: don't be afraid of losing! Mimicking your opponents strategy is the greatest way to improve.

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