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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » For Xevioso, and others ( a branch from "what is the religion of agers?"
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Topic Subject:For Xevioso, and others ( a branch from "what is the religion of agers?"
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hydarnes
Clubman
posted 02-24-99 06:52 PM ET (US)         
I am a Christian and very, very thankful that I know about God!!!

How did the world come about Xevioso??? Do you believe in the "BIG BANG" theory? Or have you thought up some other phenomenon(sp?). You use earthly things to explain God, which there is no possible way that you can! I think you should read A post by Pericles! You state your A devout Atheist, so how do you believe the world came about???? BY CHANCE??? or.....? For your information The Bible does not contradict itself, you just don't have a open perspective, and so you think it's contradicting itself, but Atheism REALLY contradicts itself really, really badly!!! it has no foundation to build on!!!

Do you think there was a big soup that flooded the earth or what?? It's been proven that even if there was a sea of biological soup(made up of amino acids) filling the whole world 1& 1/2 miles deep, for at least 10thousand years(I think it's more, but I'll keep safe) there still could be no spark of life. Much less, a complete living cell with all its complexity comparable to the city of New York.

Scientists agree about the overwhelming impossibility of such a micro organism coming about by chance. So in order to make it appear that such a thing did occur, they say “Well, give it million upon millions of years, and then it could happen.” This hypothesis based on no known facts is totally unscientific.

How do you think all these planets are in perfect orbit?? because they just work by chance?? NO because there’s a God. You also state that God made it so we couldn't pay for our sins, but God didn't make that rule, it was Adam and Eve that sinned, that made that happen NOT God! When God made man and placed him in this ordered creation, he was an unfallen perfect being. Than you could say "why did God let Adam and Eve sin so all this shame could come upon us" right? Because God created intelligent beings, not robots, and gave him the power of choice, to choose between right and wrong!

God does not force us to do his will. He wants us to obey out of love not force. That's why it says "If ye love me keep my commandments" John 14:15. Forced obedience has to exist only when man is in a fallen state, as this world is now, that’s why the Israelites had to defend themselves from their enemies, and he has also made provision for law enforcement while in this world of sin “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.” Romans 13:1.

Sorry I have to quote scripture to you, but it is the only authoritative and reliable source to answer all our questions about origins or the nature of ultimate reality. It is the oldest known historical source, and offers the only most believable explanation about how all things came about.

You need to study it as for your life. Other wise all you’ll have is this little life. The Scripture says in 1John 5:7 “He that hath the Son hath life: he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” John 11: 25 “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:” And verse 26 says: “ And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” But if u reject him you will die and will never live again. For no man nor skeptic can conquer death. The Great life giver states “I am he that liveth and was dead: and, behold, I am alive forever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.” Oh YES you may be sure that I’m trying to make a believer out of you, but only the spirit of the living God can give you that conviction.

There is an empty tomb in Jerusalem, and he who rose said “I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” John 14:3. But “The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” Romans 6:23. If you believe in Him…he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.” Romans 8:11. If u reject him, then “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” Hebrews 10:26b, 27.

Furthermore, Hebrews 9:27 says: “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” And once the judgment is over, those who have rejected Christ, the unbelieving “…shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” The second death is GOOD BYE to life FOREVER and ever more. But for those who believe “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away” Revelation 21:4. And in that glorious holy city (of which the wicked cities of this world are satan’s countefeit) “there shall be no night there,; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light :and they shall reign FOR EVER and EVER.” Revelation 22:5.

If you would like to know more I am more than willing to show you what the scripture sayeth(sp?). In conclusion “all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord ENDURETH FOR EVER. And this is the word by which the gospel (Good news about the kingdom of God) is preached unto you.” 1Peter 1:24,25.

May you find God, whom you CAN find if you will search for him with ALL your heart. See Jeremiah 29:13. 1 John 4:8 says: “He that loveth not knoweth not God for God is Love.” Amen!!!!!

[This message has been edited by Hydarnes (edited 03-02-99).]

AuthorReplies:
Capablanca
Clubman
posted 02-24-99 08:14 PM ET (US)     1 / 34       
Well, I myself believe in God, but thought this topic deserved an impartial answer. I'm terrible at explaining things, so I'm just gonna list the relevant items, ok?

- assuming we are alive by chance is really pretty unlikely. AS MUCH AS a superior being called God coming into existence for no reason whatsoever.

- the planets have perfect orbits due to the theory of relativity. Whether this law is a product of chance or made by God, it depends on your beliefs.

- I'll say this once and no more than once: the Bible has lots and lots of metaphors. They tried to explain things in a way they could understand. You can't read it literally.

- We can't prove scientifically the existence of God, so, if you want to believe in him, fine, believe in him and do good deeds. If you don't want to believe in him, fine, don't believe in him but do good deeds anyway to make a better world. That's probably what He would want anyway, people doing good things instead of discussing religion.

------------------
"If it has a different color and moves, KILL IT!" - most Agers' definition of strategy.

Xevioso
Inactive
posted 02-24-99 10:31 PM ET (US)     2 / 34       
A letter! For MEEEEEE! (he says in his best Ms. Piggy voice).

Well.

Where to begin.

As I told Pericles, evolutionists (many of whom are not atheists) do not believe the world came about through chance. A snowflake is made of billions of water molecules; yet they come together in an ordered fashion through cause and effect to create a snowflake. It's in the nature of water molecules to do this; it isn't chance. They "tend" towards orderly behavior under certain circumstances because of their shape and molecular qualities.

And as an evolutionist, I believe that under certain circumstances certain molecules tend to come togethether to make life.

Who made these tendencies? They are all cause and effect, going back to the Big Bang. What caused the Big Bang? I don't know...it could have existed as a ball of energy waiting to blow up. Scientists know of Virtual Particles, which are particles that arise spontaneously out of energy. Perhaps the Big Bang came from this.

But if the Universe is complex and requires a designer, imagine the complexity of the being that created God! If you believe that cycle has to stop somewhere, it will be an arbitrary choice...one that I can just as easily ascribe to a Universe...perhaps one that has been exploding out and compressing back upon itself for eternity...perhaps this universe is one of billions that have been expanding from each other for...ETERNITY! And why not? It's just as good as a God explanation.
*****
2 Chron 22:2 "Ahaziah was 42 when he ascended to the Throne of Judah in Israel."

2 Kings 8:26 "Ahaziah was 22 when he ascended to the throne of Judah in Israel."

This is in the KJV...other versions correct this, others don't. But the originals have the contradiction. There are hundreds like this.

Rom 3:10: "No one is righteous, no, not one" yet Job was righteous before God.

I could go on forever.
****
You state that Adam and Eve made it so that we can't pay for our sins. Can't you see how unjust this is? We are screwed because of what they did? Do you believe everything you read in the Bible without questioning it? We are doomed to sin because of what Adam did...

Why the heck wasn't he up on the cross...he's the one who started it!
****
The Bible is by no means the most historical source, nor is Christianity the oldest monotheistic religion...the Zoroastrians had a single God thousands of years prior to the Jews, and at least one of the Egyptian pharaohs believed in a single God before the Jews came out of the desert.
***
As far as me and the Bible goes, you'd be surprised what I know. I got my M.A. in history two years ago with a focus on American Religious History in the 19th century.
***
You can quote verses all you want; I can sling verses with the best of them, as the above verses show.
***I was a Christian for a long time. Then I read the Bible with a critical eye, which you may yet do someday. I can provide you with information on errors in the Bible if you'd like; I can point to websites which answer quite adequately your good questions about the origin of life. I am now an atheist, and love it.
***
I do not believe Jesus died for my sins, nor do I believe it was a true sacrifice...what did he lose? Stephen, who was stoned because of his beliefes gave more than Christ ever did because he COULDNT come back. Christ could. He was God.

Hydarnes, what are all the sins of Humanity nd a few hours of pain on a cross to an infinite being? A being who lives forever?

See, here's a little secret...a REAL sacrifice, one that would have been truly amazing, would have been for Christ to truly die, and not come back at all, in any form whatsoever. At that point God would have really lost his son. Instead of three in one, you'd have two in one, God the Father and God the Spirit. You'd have an infinite being who gave up not just his life (which he can and did get back because he's God) but his EXISTENCE. His SOUL.

By the way, why didn't he do that? Wouldn't that have been a really amazing sacrifice? It really isn't all that amazing for a God to die and come back...happens all the time in mythology. Even when Jesus was dead his soul wasn't; the Apostle's creed says he descended into hell and rose again. It would have been REALLY amazing if Christ sacrificed and didn't come back at ALL, like Stephen and countless other martyrs.
***
You quoted Hebrews 9:27 about it is appointed unto men to die...what about Elijah and the Genesis man (forget his name; starts with an E) who were brought into heaven alive...Elijah even went up in chariots. Isn't that a contradiction?
***

Hydarnes, I'm certain you believe what you do fervently, as do I. I have looked at all of your verses and read the Bible many times over. I have a feeling that I'm asking you questions and pointing things out to you you never have seen before. I may be wrong; you may have critically thought through all of this. But I suspect not. Please read my post carefully, and consider thoughtfully the questions I have raised.

Xevioso

Bastyrdus I
Inactive
posted 02-25-99 03:54 AM ET (US)     3 / 34       
Well, it is usually in my best interest to avoid posts like these, but I can't help getting a word or more in. So, against my better judgement, here goes...

My religious beliefs, while really none of anyones business, are rather complex; but tried and tested over the years. I believe in a supreme being, but no necessarily one that fits most religions, while conforming to the simple script of the bible itself.

I believe that god is one of the most intriguing beings one could imagine, and his/her/it's personality is what drives me. God seems to have many sides, and all of them rather easy to understand, if you are to begin to understand yourself. We are divine beings, created in "God's image," and to understand God is to understand yourself, and the people around you.

My first belief of God is as an experimentor of sorts. Genisis is what sets this belief for me. His creation of life on Earth is an experiment, and life's beginnings confirm it to me. Science explains what the bible cannot. "Creation," in "Seven Days," is not literal, to me. After all, how could one have a day before it is created? I believe god created the earth in seven "steps," or "stages." Much more logical. Many have scorned me for it, but have not been able to turn me. God, as a builder, would likely have used time to develop and form the earth and it's inhabitants.

Complex beliefs such as this usually get me into more arguments than I can count, but one thing I will not ignore that many, including Christians, do. The first commandment: "...I am the Lord your God..." Whenever I see "Jesus is Lord," Plastered on someones window, I just smile to myself, and think, "God would disagree."

A small comment on the "chance" argument regarding Creation vs. Darwinism. In my experience, and as logic and reason would put it, an argument AGAINST chance is feeble. The vast expanses of God's domain is so great, that the law of averages is on Darwin's side. In this infinite universe, ANYTHING can happen.

Oh, by the way, if you've haven't guessed by now, my belief:
God created us THROUGH evolution.

How 'bout them forbidden fruit?

lucifer
Inactive
posted 02-25-99 08:11 AM ET (US)     4 / 34       
Hi Hydarnes,

How are you doing? Fine I hope!

I just read your post and as usual, I'm really amazed.

We are here in the grey area between faith and science. I know, sometimes it's very difficult to tell the difference but I think you are a bit misguided.
Of course, I dont want to talk about your religious beliefs I try here to (loosely) talk about science and some of your methodological problems.

1) Well, I dont think you can read the bible as a collection of scientific paper about the origins of life and humans beings. I know, there are different levels of interpretation in this great book but the scientific one is not possible. There are too much problems IMO Just one example: I doubt a strings of consangineous marriages can give something worthy, and with that Adam and Eve story I doubt it's avoidable.
(but ok, I know what your going to sa: "God came ..")

2) Your attitude toward science is "obscurantist". You just say: "Things are so cause gods created it that way, it is told in the bible and it's logic cause you know God love us and in Ephesian 23:3 it says "Human you are a worm [..]" And that's all..
You dont try to explain anything, you just quotes strings of bible fragments (without the context of course). Hell, it's ok for me, but you'll never do a scientific endeavour with that attitude. Einstein believed in god but I doubt he would find is incredible theory of relativity in the Genesis! It's what I call obscurantism.
(And I'm amazed how you can think people will be convinced by your bunch of quotes)

3)Planets orbits are not perfect. Today, it's not clear if the solar system will stay stable. The mathematic formulas that describe the planets movements are higly not-linear and thus impossible to solve completly. However some numerical
simulations suggests that it your "perfect orbits" will collide in thousand of years..(ok, I know that the God variable was not inculded in the formulas..)
(I'm studying physics so I know what I'm talking about!)

Please in your reply, dont include bible quotes!

Cya on the battlefield,

Lucifer


Ender
Guest
posted 02-25-99 09:35 AM ET (US)     5 / 34       
Quoting the bible doesn't really prove anything. There is nothing that in anyway proves that anything in the bible is true. For people that aren't religios the bible is pretty much a work of fiction.
Jehu
Inactive
posted 02-25-99 02:06 PM ET (US)     6 / 34       
Xevioso

You make several points that no doubt provide you with comfort in your faith that there is no God. And make no mistake, it is a faith. You can no more prove that God does not exist than I or any one else can scientifically prove that he does. That's why it is called faith.

There is very little point in arguing with anyone that is truly happy in their belief as you are in yours. Plus it never really bears fruit anyway for either side of the argument. But I would like to make a few points in response to some of yours.

You mention that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was no sacrifice at all because as God he had nothing to lose. You failed to mention that Christ was not only "very God" but also "very man". The man Jesus prayed fervently that "this cup might pass before Him" (as you know). It was not easy for the man to humble himself and willingly give up his life for the very people that were calling for his death. That small point doesn't make the sacrifice more or less significant, the quality of the sacrifice does. But your description of it was very inaccurate and at the very least incomplete as the man Jesus was as fearful of death as any human and His descent into hell (spiritual death) prior to His resurrection was just as real. Not flippant act on His part.


You say that Adam should have been on the cross if the sacrifice was to be just. The problem with that is throughout the scriptures, all redemptive sacrifices where at the expense of another victim. Up until the cross of Christ those victims were bulls, sheep, goats, pigeons, etc. Something had to die to bring redemption and to restore ones relationship to God. When a person was put to death for his or her sins it was not a redemptive sacrifice. It was simply punishment. Redemption is an avoidance of further punishment and restoration of relationship.


You may consider this unjust, but consider that all nature, all life is sustained in the very same way in the natural sense. God gave us a graphic picture of the need for a substitutionary sacrifice in the way He set up nature. When you sit down to eat supper tonight look at everything on your plate. Something had to die or forfeit its life to allow you to live a few more days---that may be unjust or ugly to consider but try doing it any other way and you will soon die. Everything in nature lives at the expense of the life of another---plants and animals. That the sinless Christ---very God and very man----had to die physically and spiritually so that we might live spiritually, only follows the example laid down by nature itself.

I am curious why an atheist would want to "convert" or "enlighten" a believer. An adherent of a faith like Christianity, or even Islam I suspect, would want to convert a non-believer out of concern for the non-believer's eternal well being. You can't believe in a literal hell and not be concerned. That is at least the noble reason for proselytizing. What noble cause drives an atheist to seek converts? I can't think of any. You want others to read your posts carefully so you can help them. How? Your faith in no god can no more be proved than my faith in God and yet the stakes are much higher for you if you are wrong. I understand fun, honest debate of conflicting ideas-even about the existence of God---but I do not see how attempting to undermine the faith of someone is in any way a noble cause. BTW, much of your debate does not in and of itself fall into that category.

A last point.

In the story of the fall of Adam and Eve it is sometimes said that Eve believed the serpents lie. In fact, part of Eve's error was not believing a lie but being presented with a little more truth and mistaking it for the full truth. It seemed to contradict God's word when the serpent said, "you will surely not die but become like God knowing good and evil". The serpent was right but he didn't tell her everything. Eve let a half truth undermine her trust in God. When she and Adam ate the fruit they died in a way they had not considered---spiritually. God told Adam and Eve all they needed to know about WHAT, and told them a little about Why. When presented with a little more truth Eve doubted God's word and disregarded it in favor of a partial truth. It resulted in her immediate spiritual death and immediately set in process her physical death.

Many of us today are guilty of the error of Eve. We are presented with a little more truth through our honest pursuit of knowledge but not with all the truth. It offends our faith and we make conclusions long before all the truth is revealed or all the evidence is presented. The Bible is not and was not intended to be a complete history book, or a complete science book. The Old Testament is a partial history of the Hebrews and their relationship with God and a partial genealogy of Christ. The New Testament is a partial documentation of the life and ministry of Christ, his relationship with church, and the ministry of the apostles and early Church. It is not a complete science or history textbook and doesn't even tell us much about the relationships God may have had with other peoples before he called Abram out. But, it supplies us with all the knowledge we need for salvation telling us the Divine "Who" and "What" and only some of the "why", "how", and "when".

I do not ask that anyone ignore things like the theory of evolution (natural selection is pretty evident to me), theories about the age of the universe, how it came about, etc. I would ask that you remember that you are working with a very small piece of the overall truth with much more information still unrevealed. To discount spiritual things based on an incomplete knowledge of natural things strikes me as irrational and illogical. As a history major, you know better than most of us how incomplete information can paint a very inaccurate picture. This is where faith comes in….both your faith and mine.

[This message has been edited by Jehu (edited 02-25-99).]

Xevioso
Inactive
posted 02-25-99 04:47 PM ET (US)     7 / 34       
I don't deny my belief is a faith. I do not claim to know all, or have access to holy writ, unlike religious folks. I do not need to "prove" anything to anyone, even myself. I just have to have a very good reason for believing things. Proof is for math and science. I can't be sure there's no God, but all evidence I have seen, especially the existence of evil, gives me a good reason for beleiving God doesn't exist.

You ignored my point about a true sacrifice. Why didn't Jesus really lose his existence? Why aren't there now two in one instead of three in one? Wouldnt that be a MORE true sacrifice?

Jesus didn't lose his life for your sins; he took a three day vacation for your sins. You are wallowing in the contradiction of the trinity. Either he is man or God. He can't be both.

Did Jesus know he was going to die?

Did he know he was going to rise again?

If not, that means he was lacking in knowledge.

If he was lacking in knowledge; if there was a thing he did not know, how can he be a all-powerful, all knowing God?

Was Christ all-powerful and all knowing? Yes or no?

If no, he was not God, especially not FULLY God, which is what Christians claim.

How could Christ be truly fearful of death if he was God and KNEW he was going to rise again? Or are you claiming he didn't know this?


There was nothing stopping God from resurrecting Adam and having him die on the Cross. Nor was there anything stopping God from giving each of us the same choice Adam had.

In response to your final argument, I find myself reminded of similar arguments presented to a jury.

Take evil for example. All evidence points to the fact that the Holocaust was an evil event, one that God (if he existed) could have chosen to halt at any time.

I judge the Christian god to be negligent in his handling of that case. If Christians can pray to God to heal their infirmities, then God could have answered the Jews prayer to give Hitler the flu.

Now, it is possible that a greater good will come out of the death of 6 million Jews. I may be jumping the gun in judging God for not getting rid of Hitler sooner. It may come to light three thousand years from now that had Hitler not wiped out the Polish Jews, a previously unknown disease would have likely erupted in Poland among the Jews, which would then spread to the rest of the world, killing billions. But until that is shown to be, the Holocaust was an evil event that could not have occurred under a good, omnicient God.

It's like a defense witness telling a jury, "Please don't convict my client, even though all the evidence points to his guilt. Because you never know, one day evidence might come out that will show him innocent."

That's a rediculous argument, but you are making it. I make a judgement call based on the evidence that I have *right now*, and that is that the Christian God does not exist.

Patamon
Inactive
posted 02-25-99 04:49 PM ET (US)     8 / 34       
Hydarnes,

As a devout Athiest (I go to the church of athiesm every day, i.e. REALITY!) I just had to make a few notes about your ramblings...

#1: You say the planets are in perfect orbits, yadda yadda... REALLY? whats a perfect orbit? How do you know our planets are not in a shitty orbit, and those of Alpha Centuri or some other star are not in perfect orbits?

#2: Quoting from the bible is about as relevant to an athiest as quoting from any other huge man-made tome of contradictions. (Hoyles book of Rules, The D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, ______ Govt Manual, The Bible, Enter favorite book here ____)

#3: How did the universe come about? who knows, one thing for sure.. YOU DONT! Yet you have the audacity to expect someone who does'nt believe in your fairytale fantasy world to provide answers to questions that you know cannot PRESENTLY be answered, therefore invalidating their beliefs.

#4: "The bible does'nt contradict itself" Yea right, either you have'nt read it, or your stark raving mad.

Ok thats all I have to say, now I'm going to go buy a Twinkie Winkie Teletubby and go to hell.

- Patamon

Patamon
Inactive
posted 02-25-99 04:51 PM ET (US)     9 / 34       
Hydarnes,

As a devout Athiest (I go to the church of athiesm every day, i.e. REALITY!) I just had to make a few notes about your ramblings...

#1: You say the planets are in perfect orbits, yadda yadda... REALLY? whats a perfect orbit? How do you know our planets are not in a shitty orbit, and those of Alpha Centuri or some other star are not in perfect orbits?

#2: Quoting from the bible is about as relevant to an athiest as quoting from any other huge man-made tome of contradictions. (Hoyles book of Rules, The D&D Dungeon Masters Guide, ______ Govt Manual, The Bible, Enter favorite book here ____)

#3: How did the universe come about? who knows, one thing for sure.. YOU DONT! Yet you have the audacity to expect someone who does'nt believe in your fairytale fantasy world to provide answers to questions that you know cannot PRESENTLY be answered, therefore invalidating their beliefs.

#4: "The bible does'nt contradict itself" Yea right, either you have'nt read it, or your stark raving mad.

Ok thats all I have to say, now I'm going to go buy a Twinkie Winkie Teletubby and go to hell.

- Patamon

Elijeh
Clubman
posted 02-25-99 09:05 PM ET (US)     10 / 34       
Xevioso, can you wash blood of with blood? no i don't believe you can. the only sacrifice that could truelly get "rid" of our sins, is a sinless sacrifice. therefore, sinc eadam had already sinned, how is it that he coudl repent for those sins? its liek my blood washing away blood.

Also true the bible does contredict itself. but the bible was only inspired by god, not written by god. true it has been distorted, but hasn't everything been?

As well, how do you know what happened before the first word sof genesis? Before genesis Lucifer had already fallen, and in heaven we'll proberly learn of Battles between the Angels and the demons. Also by "proving" my faith wrong, couldn't you be causing the permanent loss for me? but if i prove you wrong and you believe in good, and accept christ as your savior, and therefore go to heaven...wouldn't that actully be a positive outturn?

Have you "Atheists" ever truelly thought about what made you? when you hold your first child, and you look at the perfectnes sof him/her/it, will you believe that all that was merely an accedent? I wouldn't be able to. I have to KNOW that god made me purposefully, that i wasn't soem accedent. Its my ego you understand?

Now i do see your side of the argument, that it slikely humans merely MADE up god, but then again, why do we so fervently believe that? And truelly God isn't a bad thign to believe in?

Why do bad things happen? Because god gives us our own way to follow. If we choose to kill someone who is faithful to Him, he won't stop us. And how do you know that the allied victory and defeat of hitler wasn't what god had in plan? simply using earthly methods.

And i believe Jesus did know what he was doing. However how do you know what jesus went through while he visited hell? And what if the time runs differently in hell, meaning whiel 3 days passed here, 1 million passed in hell. surely you realize that by having his only soon slain, God, lost a part of himself? only for his son to rise again. Now i'm not going to act like i have proff, but man, i have faith. and when i die, and you die, we'll see who is right, neh? Lets save this for the afterlife. which i thin kyou might not like.

REPENT!
okay had to get that in..its all that southern Babtistnist.
like my name?

Pericles
Inactive
posted 02-25-99 10:03 PM ET (US)     11 / 34       
Ok, before anyone makes any comments you should know about the Bible and what it says.

Jesus in fact DID know about his death and that he would rise again. If he knew he would rise again why was he still afraid? He was man, he knew the pains of his crusifiction, and imagine, being all perfect, and then taking on the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. ok, imagine, you have been clean all your life, for eternity until now, clean from filth. and you lived in a perfect place. then, you go down to a place with filth all around you. and then, not only are u killed brutally, but you must take on the sins of the whole world, once perfect, then bearing all the sins of the world on your shoulders...

armagedn
Clubman
posted 02-25-99 10:30 PM ET (US)     12 / 34       
Ah! Fresh from my long-winded post on the original thread, I stride in amidst the slings and arrows (smiling arrogantly). What a popular topic? To think people actually have OPINIONS on RELIGION, of all things? It's an amazing thing, to be sure.

Y'know, I remember when I went off to college, I was absolutely astounded that people my own age were still going to CHURCH. I thought, JESUS! (heh heh) You're on your own, now! Your parents aren't here to force you to go! Sleep in! Watch some football! Have some Cheerios and beer!

And yet, off they went? Was it possible that I was missing something?

Oh, hell yes (heh heh). I've missed a lot of things. But extra sleep wasn't one of 'em! (Though, looking back, perhaps the sacramental wine might have taken the edge off of some of my more heinous hangovers).

By my junior year, the Bears won the Super Bowl, and any hope I had of going anywhere on Sunday (at least during football season!) were shattered forever. And yes - I've been cursed for it ever since (just look at the religion wherein I cast my sorry lot! Go Bears! Lead me not into damnation! Too late!)

* * *

Sigh- back to this "subject."

Hydarnes -

What do you base "Atheism REALLY contradicts itself reall, really badly!!!" on? What the hell do you mean by that unsubstantiated assertion? Atheism denies the existence of deities - what is "contradictory" about that? It seems very straightforward.

Planets are NOT in "perfect orbit." These elliptical, travelling masses move and change their orbits over time, and other objects may interfere w/ their paths. Nice try, tho.

Saying that God "wants us to obey out of love not force," denies the existence of the God of the Old Testament. This was NOT the God o' Luv of the New Testament. And the Israelites weren't spreadin' the Word o' God w/ an olive branch, but a sword. Jerusalem was taken by force, and all the original inhabitants were slaughtered. Guess they couldn't deal w/ all that lovin'. An interesting tactic of Israelite "defense."

And as to the quote that scripture is "the only authoritative and reliable source to answer all our questions about origins or the nature of ultimate reality" well, gosh! What can I say? Except, perhaps, read more books! Will they give you these answers? No. But perhaps they will effectively challenge your current beliefs, and at least make you a teeny bit more tolerant of those who doubt them.

Xevioso-
The monotheistic pharaoah's name was Amenhotep IV (approx. 1370 B.C.). His god was the Sun, which he named Aton. He renamed himself "Akhenaton," meaning "useful to Aton."

Lucifer -
Yes, it is amazing how someone could believe simply hurling Biblical quotes out of context wouldn't make us all instant converts. And, as you pointed out, "planets ain't poifect."

Jehu -
Ah, the most gracious poster. I'm always in awe. (Not sarcasm, even though it's my nature. You have a sharp mind, and an eloquent mode of expression.)

Gotta go w/ Xevy on the Jesus' sacrifice issue - it's something I've questioned since I was a tiny little heathen. In my childlike curiousity, I wondered why a man who was also God and had Always been of God and who began in Heaven and knew He would return to Heaven would really "lose" anything if he were to "die"? What did he truly stand to lose (except the wrath of the unbelievers and Roman taxation)? I believe it was a powerful, symbolic gesture, but I fail to see how He or his Dad "lost" anything in the process. Especially since they "knew" all this would occur before he was ever "born" on earth. Given the knowledge of "everlasting life" in the "grace of God," if this is such a wondrous thing, who would choose LIFE? Sorry if this is simplifying your argument, but it's never been answered to my satisfaction (yes, it never will be).

As to the sacrifices - well, the fact that "something" has to "die to bring redemption" is a ritual that has been around since the earliest troglodyte "religions." A horrible notion, indeed. How the blood of a goat, a lamb, a virgin, or a "savior" can "wash away sin" is yet another idea I'll never be able to grasp. It doesn't "cure" ME of sin, and any sins I've committed are still "unwashed," as far as I'm concerned.

Also, I'm completely befuddled by your analogy to the unjust nature of sin redemption to the food chain. Yes, I may eat a pig/cow to survive... what has this to do w/ redemption? "It died so that I might live"? Aw, c'mon now....

As to why an atheist would want to "convert" or "enlighten" a believer... well, I DON'T. I certainly wouldn't dare speak for Xevioso or other hell-bound hopeless cases. (Sorry Xev, but there it is, you, me, and the rest of 'em are all booked non-stop to the Big Flambe! - bring a FAN!)

I sincerely believe if you take comfort, strength, whatever in your faith, more power to you. And, I suppose, your argument toward the "noble" cause of saving someone from eternal damnation has its merits, though you don't have the right to do so. I can't tolerate intolerance - it's intolerable! If I choose not to believe you (a general you, not you in particular, whom I believe to be a sincere, and intelligent being, however you came to be), I'd much rather you not intrude on my beliefs/philosophy, simply because you believe it to be noble (thanks, but no thanks). I'm sure many religious wars were started along similar lines (what's that in yer hand, Jehu?)

Of course, my distrust and occasional detestation of "prosyletizers" is due to the fact that many, if not most, of them have an agenda, and it ain't savin' my hide from the Furnace Below. It's lining their own pockets that brings them to the House o' God (or worse, the Airwaves). Of course they ain't all bad, but there's too many people out there tryin' to dupe the masses into buying them Cadillacs for me to not be a bit distrustful of 'em.

Oh, and another teeny-weeny point - several books of the Bible WERE intended as history. The books of Moses (oh, and that god-awful book o' Numbers!) were pretty straightforward ramblings of the miseries of the Hebrew people (w/ the usual assortment of parables, fables, and fictitious coverings-up of assorted atrocities).

Keep 'em comin', Jehu. You won't convince me, nor would I try to convince you. But I love a good debate, and I admire your conviction and your diplomacy. (I try, but that devil inside me...)

Elijeh -
No one's gonna cause you to lose faith. If you do that - it was your own choice. Nor could you "prove" Xevioso wrong. Let's face it folks, the only way this argument will ever get "resolved" is when we're all Dead as Dodi n' Di. If you folks are right, you may laugh or cry from Up on High.

And if we're right?

We won't hear you!

[This message has been edited by armagedn (edited 02-26-99).]

Jehu
Inactive
posted 02-26-99 00:25 AM ET (US)     13 / 34       
Hi Armegadn

I have avoided these threads for quite some time. I even deleted my previous posts on the original. But what can I say? I was sucked in

After we get past our basic fundamental disagreement about God, I actually agree with some of your points about the less "noble" intentions of some who profess Christianity. But I usually don't make a habit of discussing what's wrong with certain aspects of the Church with non-believers---no offense but what would be the point? A non-believer has no stake or concern in the health of the Church.
armegadn said:

quote:
Also, I'm completely befuddled by your analogy to the unjust nature of sin redemption to the food chain. Yes, I may eat a pig/cow to survive... what has this to do w/ redemption? "It died so that I might live"? Aw, c'mon now....

You really don't get it? Hmmmm. I actually first read that from a non-Christian source in Campbell's The Power of Myth. This line of thought is not even unique to Christianity. Some Native American's viewed the "sacrifice" of bison for example in a very similar way. It hit me between the eyes and actually made me appreciate the "grand circle of life" more than I had....corny huh? I can understand why it is not readily apparent since we mostly eat meat killed by our proxy in some far away slaughter house and wrapped in unrecognizable packages. Its hard to remember that the T-bone in the package was once alive and was put to death so we can eat it and live a few more days. You don't have to be religious to appreciate this truth.

armegedn said:

quote:
As to the sacrifices - well, the fact that "something" has to "die to bring redemption" is a ritual that has been around since the earliest troglodyte "religions." A horrible notion, indeed. How the blood of a goat, a lamb, a virgin, or a "savior" can "wash away sin" is yet another idea I'll never be able to grasp. It doesn't "cure" ME of sin, and any sins I've committed are still "unwashed," as far as I'm concerned.

Well in is part if the biblical teaching that the life is in the blood. And since the fall of Adam brought death to humanity, blood---life---was the price of redemption. The blood of animals was temporarily counted as sufficient on a yearly basis until the sacrifice of Christ---whose blood was holy enough to be the final sacrifice for all sin past, present, and future. But that's a lot of doctrine...your probably not interested


aremegedn said:

quote:
I wondered why a man who was also God and had Always been of God and who began in Heaven and knew He would return to Heaven would really "lose" anything if he were to "die"? What did he truly stand to lose (except the wrath of the unbelievers and Roman taxation)? I believe it was a powerful, symbolic gesture, but I fail to see how He or his Dad "lost" anything in the process. Especially since they "knew" all this would occur before he was ever "born" on earth. Given the knowledge of "everlasting life" in the "grace of God," if this is such a wondrous thing, who would choose LIFE? Sorry if this is simplifying your argument, but it's never been answered to my satisfaction (yes, it never will be).

It doesn't matter that he knew he would be resurrected (didn't deny this in the previous post) blood had to be shed for redemption from sin. (see answer above) The quality of the blood sacrifice was the point. My point in the earlier post was just to bring some balance to the argument. I don't expect an atheist to understand the Trinity and how it plays into all of this. But scripture specifically points out the mental anguish Christ went through leading to his willful submission to the cross. If you see Christ as the Gnostics of the first few centuries did then you have a good point. They taught that Christ did not truly come in the flesh as we are flesh. Obviously I don't agree with them. I see the cross as the place I should be. Not because of my righteousness, but because of my sinfulness. Because of that, the image of Christ on the cross in my place is very powerful to me. I don't care if it was easy or not for him. It would not be easy for me.


armegedn said:

quote:
Oh, and another teeny-weeny point - several books of the Bible WERE intended as history. The books of Moses (oh, and that god-awful book o' Numbers!) were pretty straightforward ramblings of the miseries of the Hebrew people (w/ the usual assortment of parables, fables, and fictitious coverings-up of assorted atrocities).

Yep that's right. Well....mostly right.

I guess I didn't say it very well in my earlier post, but I did say that the Old Testament, which the books of Moses certainly fall into, were a partial history of the Hebrews. For the sake of brevity I didn't give an exhaustive review however, so my description is not 100% complete. My point was the Bible is not and was not intended to be all inclusive of world history...or even Hebrew history for that matter.

aremegedn said:

quote:
Keep 'em comin', Jehu. You won't convince me, nor would I try to convince you. But I love a good debate, and I admire your conviction and your diplomacy. (I try, but that devil inside me...)

Well I may not participate much because I would rather use this forum to talk about how to get over my horrible slump in RoR.
But its always a pleasure to converse with you. When it comes to writing style and ones ability to communicate---You are the Man! I can only dream...

Xeniosa

You didn't introduce much new material in your latest post. I didn't answer all your points before because I didn't feel the need to. I thought I would introduce a line of thought that had not been covered yet in this thread...silly me. For some reason it seems to have ruffled your feathers a bit. Sorry

You are throwing out a lot of opinions that are nothing more than that. I will answer them in short form and let you match the answer with the question...just like in grade school

(1)God isn't likely to let you define what a sacrifice is....darned unreasonable I know.

(2)Yes he did. Actually I celebrate the Mystery of the Trinity and accept that the created (me) cannot ever fully understand the Creator(God). If I could He would be smaller than my own intellect now wouldn't He?

(3)Yes he knew...but the man Jesus was still fearful of death, or at least dreaded the passage, and especially the spiritual death and separation from God the Father that He had never experienced before. Besides it misses the whole point.

(4)Nope, nothing was stopping Him. He chose not to.

(5) Its the ugly price we pay for having a free will....everyone else has a free will too. We live with the consequences and are reminded by millions of examples how morally corrupt and utterly sinful humanity really is.

(6) It is a fact that neither you nor I have all the truth. You said so. If you want to make your decision based on partial evidence I'm sure you will understand if I do the same. I believe in God based on the evidence I have collected. Circumstantial evidence that seems to contradict minor points of the written record are insignificant when compared to the vast weight of evidence in my opinion. Incomplete knowledge gained in the natural world doesn't offend my faith...and frankly I don't know why it should. If God chose to use a "big Bang" so be it. I noticed on Nova the other day that scientist are having to rethink the Big Bang since Hubble is shooting holes in the theory...Dangit! Just when we thought we knew!


later all

Jehu

Xevioso
Inactive
posted 02-26-99 00:25 AM ET (US)     14 / 34       
This message is for Elijah and any other Christian.

Elijah, If "blood can't wash away blood" then why did the the early Israelites use animals when they sinned to sacrifice them? Why do you automatically believe sin=blood, and so therefore sin can't wash away sin?

The concept of what Jesus actually did on the cross is very fuzzy and is one of the main problems with Christianity, just like the redemption. It lends itself to guesswork. Things that Jesus never said about his sacrifice Paul said, and people ran with tit. Basically, a lot of it was made up.

Fact is,
1) Jesus didn't "lose" anything if he was God, because he knew he was going to die
2) A REAL sacrifice would have been Jesus dying for GOOD. That way, even if he knew he was going to die, he would have had a sense of his impending doom and experienced the true terror a human goes through when he knows he is going to die.

As far as atheism goes, there's a lot of misconceptions about it.

I don't begrudge anyone their belief in Christianity. If you believe it is the truth, fine. I'm simply expressing my opinions on truth here. I am, in reality, a very pragmatic person, who believes that from a practical standpoint, if you believe something is true, and it causes you to act as if it were true, it *might as well be true.* In other words, at that point, the actual truth or falsity of a belief becomes irrelevant, as long as it gets you through the day.

This is often a very difficult concept for a lot of people to grasp because it sort of lowers the importance of their own belief system and makes it relevant only for them and those who believe like them. Nevertheless, its what I beleive.

In one sense I envy Christians because they do have tha emotional crutch to rely on in times of need. Science is showing that religious people, especially those with a strong network of religious peers, tend to live longer. This doesn't really validate the truth of what they believe in, since people who fervently believe contradictory beliefs (Jews and Christians) show the same effects. It does show that the belief, from a practical standpoint, is more important than what you believe in.

The road of an atheist is a difficult one, I can't deny it. I'm a generally happy person. I have always stood up well in times of stress, and I hope I will in the future.

My greatest challenge will be to live with the choice I have made. To realize on my deathbed that I have had a good life and there's nothing after I die. I hope I will be content with that; I think I will. If I can't live with it, I know I can invent something and fervently believe it, and it will make the pill easier to swallow.

The truth of what I believe in at that point will be irrelevant, as long as I believe it, and it helps me slip away. I could invent Zues and pray to him "knowing" he doesnt exist, but "believing" he does. This probably won't make sense to you, but I hope another day I could put it in better words.

However,
There are times when what you believe certainly does have a practical effect., and that happens in politics and society when you condemn others for not believing as you do.

It's my view that modern Christianity has done more to hold back the advancements of women, blacks, gays, the labor movement (thats a big one no one talks about) than any other force. That one big book that brings you so much joy is the source of much evil in the world. I wonder if life wouldn't have been better if we never had it. It probably would.

And so when people preach to me about the love of Jesus Christ, I point out the problems with the story to get you to think. Most Christians here haven't asked themselves the questions I have. I haven't seen a decent response to the above two points I made about Christ's sacrifice yet. I may in the future.

Take care.

Xevioso

Patamon
Inactive
posted 02-26-99 02:03 PM ET (US)     15 / 34       
Xevioso,

What you said is very true, being an athiest is not always so easy as an Athiest does'nt have the crutch that the believers have.

However, no matter how bad things get, I could never become an non-athiest, as it would be a sham.

Being an athiest can be tough, but I prefer to live in reality and deal with it, than live in the fantasy world created by ______ (fill in the blank) religion.

If I were to be come a ________ (fill in the blank relgion) it would'nt just be a lie to others, I would be lieing to myself.

However, if those that are ______ (fill in the blank relgion) need that to get through the day, then I suppose its better that they do indeed become devout _____ (fill in the blank relgion).

In the end, thats why Man has created religions all along, to help one get through the day, to be there for a crutch when times are tough, or perhaps to help explain the mysterous things in our environment that we cant explain (Although those mysterous things are slowly being answered over time, one at a time... which is awsome.).

- Patamon

Jehu
Inactive
posted 02-26-99 04:21 PM ET (US)     16 / 34       
Has anyone seen my crutch?...{rummaging through my stuff}....I seem to have misplaced it, I guess. To be honest I don't really remember recieving one. Are we believers supposed to have one issued to us at baptisim? Hmmmm, I think I've been short changed! Here I've been enjoying my faith without the greatest of its benefits...the crutch. Wait a minute. I did lean on something at my Grandfather's funeral. Maybe that was it, I could have left it there.

Jehu.....limping along without his crutch.

[This message has been edited by Jehu (edited 02-26-99).]

Xevioso
Inactive
posted 02-26-99 05:22 PM ET (US)     17 / 34       
Jehu, you aren't limping along with a crutch...that means maybe you don't even need your religion. But most people who are religious need their beliefs. It gets them through the day.

In times of trouble they have to have a belief system or else they shatter. Not that a crutch is a bad thing; we all have our own crutches. But the evidence that religion is a crutch is that people will still hold onto small aspects of their faith even in the face of evidence that opposes it. They somehow believe that they will be damned to hell if they stray from Catholic doctrine about the virgin Mary, for example. They can't imagine believing otherwise and still remain a Catholic, even though many Catholics do. People have an EMOTIONAL attachment to their beliefs...that's fine, but lets call a spade a spade. It's a crutch; it provides emotional relief.

Capablanca
Clubman
posted 02-26-99 06:00 PM ET (US)     18 / 34       
The planets orbits really aren't perfect.... OUCH, that one really hurt! Oh well, at least my lack of knowledge is a problem with a cure...

I'm seeing an amazing thing in here, some atheists trying to convert believers... life still has true surprises...

I think I have an idea of what you're all talking about, as I'm both ex-catholic and ex-atheist.
I left catholicism due to two things, I disagreed with most of their beliefs - blind faith in an altered book, no reincarnation but no explanation to the worldly injustices, and that question of Jesus' sacrifice, among many others - and due to science. Why did God make things so complex? The theory of evolution, atomic power so that the governments could kill more civilians at once, and an universe so vast and complicated, just for us? Science has some good poins against religion, therefore my logical conclusion was, God does not exist.

But as I learned a bit more about science, I realized it didn't have all the answers. it gave the hows, but not the whys. Could a world so wonderful and vast be product of chance? Maybe, but who knows, assuming God exists somehow isn't more absurd than that. What about claims of angel sightings, magic use, etc, could all of that be false?

Then I reached my present conclusion: I believe in God. I can't prove he exists, if I could it wouldn't be called faith, now would it? But, religion as we know it has some flaws that should be considered... for instance, is it any good discussing the bible if it has been changed so many times?
And another one for the religious guys: as far as I'm concerned, the theory of evolution is true. Don't quote the bible to say I'm wrong, please, because even though it has some interesting lessons for all of us, most of it is as true as "Alice in wonderland". So, how about the belief that we're God's "privileged" creation, made in his resemblance? Why did he do so much things before us, then? Am I supposed to believe he took more than 60 million years to decide "nah, I don't like these dinosaurs, let's kill them and make something that looks more like me"? Or maybe the dinosaurs never existed, and all those bones were put in there by the devil to make humans doubt God? Oh, come on, this is absurd! The very existence of the devil is unlikely, but that's not the point.

Sorry if I didn't express myself well enough, at least tried my best. To summarize my opinion, I believe in god, but not in the church.

hydarnes
Clubman
posted 02-27-99 05:20 PM ET (US)     19 / 34       
First of all, LUCIFER, you state to me to please not use Bible texts, but that’s the only reliable book there is, concerning the existence, and history of Gods dealings with man. All discussions about God will have to be tested by scripture and scripture alone. You want me to have scientific evidence, but the Bible is the best evidence there is. All the scientific books contradict themselves and use; circular reasoning, conjecture, unconfirmed theories, and hypothetical explanations that when put thru their own scientific method leave men with the “I don’t know” (such as Xevioso was honest to admit). Scripture tells you how the world came about, and it is the most reasonable explanation there is—it is found in Psalm 33:6-9 “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host by the breath of his mouth. He gathered the waters of the sea as in a bottle; he put the deeps in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.” Someone else also stated that God can’t be proven scientifically. I mean everything around you proves it. Just life in itself proves it. If you don’t like me using scripture lucifer, you have the right to Ignore me . Oh and yes I’m doing fine, and I love to deal with you guys on this subject .
hydarnes
Clubman
posted 02-27-99 06:06 PM ET (US)     20 / 34       
XEVIOSO:
First of all The Bible does not prove the existence of God. It assumes it. Gen. 1:1 says: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Scripture portrays an infinite God who is Creator Sustainer and only Ruler of all his ordered creation. The created order is so powerful that God imputes guilt in scripture to anyone who makes the claim of atheism, which arises from the suppression of divine truth or from a mind that refuses to acknowledge the evidence that God exists. Psalms 14:1a. says: “The fool hath said in his heart there is no God….” Remember, I’m not the one calling you a fool. I have a deep respect for you(and every man), for you are a created being made in the image of God and one for whom God, in Christ, paid an infinite price to redeem from the fall (brought about by our first parents). But God does have the right to call you a fool.
My own definition of a fool is “One who stands for or against someone/something he does not know enough about.” Do you know enough about scripture? Remember that intellectual knowledge is not enough! Another text, Rom 1:18-22 says: “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. Because that , when they knew God, they glorified him not as God , neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.” Summarizing the above passage, putting in other words God is here saying: “you have enough evidence from creation concerning the existence of a Master Designer, and you are here by held liable before the creator for manifesting unbelief.” Did you know that “unbelief is the greatest sin???” The scripture says that “whatsoever is not of faith is SIN.” Rom. 14:23b.

Xevioso
Inactive
posted 03-01-99 03:34 PM ET (US)     21 / 34       
Hydarnes, you apparently have ignored my post about the innacuracy of the Bible. I gave you a number of Biblical errors and contradictions. I can provide you with literally hundreds of contradictions in the Bible.

You may quote scripture all you like, and yes I do know the Bible quite well, and not just intellectually. I know what Paul was trying to get at in his letters, but I also know he contradicted Jesus. I was a Christian once too, you know.

The deciding factor for me is reality, Hydarnes. There are a billion Muslims in the world, and they believe in a radically different set of principles than you do concerning God. Yet they live life fine, get up and pray to Allah, and suffer no ill effects. There are 600 million Bhuddists who live life as well. As Jesus was wont to say, "Ye shall know them by their works."

I look at how people act as the measure of their beliefs. There are Christians who foretell the end of the world and Muslims ignore them. There are Muslims who do the same and you ignore them. Who are you to say that your book, with all its errors and innacuracies, and specifically your interpretation of the book, is the end all, be all of human life? Muslims ignore the Bible's precepts; yet they live fine. Is your God going to damn them to hell because they have a belief that works fine for them? What kind of beast would do that?

I stand and judge your book to be lacking. I stand in the face of your scripture that you have so earnestly quoted, and say that those words of scripture are pompous and foolhardy. I say these things not because some God has allowed me to do it, nor because I have been imbued with the illusion that I came about by chance, or that a God in his wisdom has planted the seed of discontent in my soul.

I say these things because I believe them. I have used my head and my heart to come to my conclusions. I do not fear your God; he allows atrocities such as the Holocaust to occur despite the pleas of a world of believing humans. I can do nothing to stave off his anger should he decide to punish me for my arrogance, but I will not worship him out of fear. I will worship him if I deem him a good God and worthy of my respect and admiration. And I judge him lacking.


The Jews have an odd belief about the story of Abraham and Isaac. The Christians believe that Abraham was being tested by God, to see the limits of his faith, when God demanded Abraham sacrifice his son on an altar.

The Jews (at least some) believe that Abraham was testing God, to see if God would actually go through with his demand. The Jews had worshipped other Gods before, Gods who demanded human sacrifice. Abraham, in this story, was testing to see if THIS God was a good God, one worthy of the worship of his people.

My test is the test of evil, and the measure of your book. And I find your God to be a vengeful, spiteful, egotistical God who would send a man to hell for using his faculties to the best of his abilities, even if they lead him down the wrong road. I will not worship such a being.

I hope I don't offend, but I believe very strongly about this.


Xevioso

hydarnes
Clubman
posted 03-01-99 04:52 PM ET (US)     22 / 34       
Xevioso, I said that I will send my posts in sections(because it was so long) Just because I didn't post right away doesn't mean that I'm ignoring your post. It will be directed to your previous post.
hydarnes
Clubman
posted 03-01-99 11:32 PM ET (US)     23 / 34       
Xevioso:

If you fall back upon the “BIG BANG” theory as a reasonable explanation, remember that the theory is so lapsed and gaped by the lack of true scientific proof, that it is in fact immature. I believe it is possible that even the originator of this theory, the celebrated English astrophysicist, Stephen Hawking, doesn’t, himself-- deep at heart, really believe it!!! He formulated this theory by combining two ideas, 1: is Edwin Hubble’s 1920’s theory of an ever expanding universe (so that today, astronomers have added 40billion more galaxies to the already existing theory of a 10billion galaxy Universe). Idea #2 is : the mind-boggling theory of “black holes.”

I believe there is a spiritual rationalization, however, why the theory exists. Scientists claim to be logical, subject to reason, to empirical knowledge, to reliable and verifiable data. This, the “Big Bang” theory does not produce. So to be really scientific, that is, subject to verifiable reason, you’d have to admit that there is a God. BUT!!! If you admit there is a God. You would have to, in order to be reasonable, honor and obey such an infinite Being. This they do not wish to do, and for this, the same God that says: “come now let us reason together” Isaiah 1:18, says that they are without excuse, Rom.1:20b. I believe Xevioso, that deep in your heart you may not be truly willing to be subject to an infinite God that demands submission to his laws. So in order to be free to do as you please, and not have to obey, except those things that are convenient (like those man made laws that are derived from higher divine law, and for which there are stiff penalties).

You would rather accept the explanation of a so called “scientific” but an actually speculative and conjectured “big bang” theory. To believe that all existing matter in an infinite universe, and all the ordered system of galactic clusters, solar systems with innumerable possibilities of life in other myriads of planets (Rev.12:12), was all originally compacted in a sphere perhaps the size of an orange, not only lacks scientific credibility, but it defies even common sense… ….

To believe in the general theory of evolution (and theistic evolution, is an unreliable compromise) requires actually more blind faith, than true Biblical faith, which is based on the Bible as the infallible revelation of God’s will. To believe that this ordered universe came into being as a result of evolutionary theory is like saying, that a complete unabridged dictionary just happened to come together by the explosion of a large printing press!!! Or that a complete perfectly running brand new automobile just emerged because there happened to be enough car parts in a large car wrecking yard!! Talk about “reality,” Xevioso!!! Evolution is more of a fantasy land than true creation is. And incidentally, I have a large file of scientific proofs against Darwin’s “The Origin Of The Species” that I could share with you.

God has given sufficient evidence in his word, upon which to base our faith. This can be confirmed by thorough in -depth Bible study. I believe, you find the Bible filled with contradictions, because, you have not studied it systematically with a deep heart desire to know what is truth. Had you done so, you would have found it, along with millions of Christians as the infallible word of God to man. But that’s fine, bring up your contradictions and I will do my best to answer them scripturally, one by one, for I am sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it certainly does not.

The diligent student of scripture, who searches it, as it says with faith, will find perfect harmony, where the scoffer sees only contradiction and confusion. Hebrews 1: 1,3,6: “Now faith is the substance of things not seen.” “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” There are 3 presuppositions here that you must accept in the above passage, if you are going to find the truth. #1 you must accept the presupposition that he exists. #2 that he will reward you for seeking him. #3 that God made everything, including you.

If you’re not willing to work with presuppositions, then you would not be able to live with yourself, because, you live with them everyday. You could question even that your mother is your mother. But I believe you can accept that presupposition, and then you could find the evidence that your mother is truly your mother. You can do the same with scripture.

Scripture offers reliable explanations to all of mans questions about origins and existence. The only question the Bible will not answer is: “What is the mystery of the existence of God.” It is impossible for created beings to prove the existence of an infinite, uncreated God. But the scripture saith: Ps. 19:1. “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork.” Look up into the sky Xevioso! How big is it? How far does it go? Read the book of Job with an open heart. What would you do with all that illimitable outer Space? God hung all those worlds out there with ordered law, thru a perfect balance of the law of gravity.

God created all physical laws. Man has discovered just a few of these laws, but in his pride and selfishness (because of the fall), leaves God out of the picture, and then ends up misinterpreting those laws. He then ends up trying to fill the gaps with evolutionary theories based more on BLIND LEAPS of unbiblical faith, than on true scientific fact. Contradictions between Scripture and science are frequently the result of speculation. When we cannot harmonize science with Scripture, it is because we have, an imperfect comprehension of either science or revelation…but RIGHTLY understood, you would find them to be in PERFECT HARMONY.

By the way you state that “Zoroastrians had a single God thousands of years prior to the Jews”(posting of 2/24/99) Well how do u figure that Xevioso?? Zoroastrianism was the religion of the Persians, founded by the prophet Zoraster (or Zarathustra) although the date of his birth is a matter of dispute, recent scholarship puts it at 660BC, 600BC at the latest, yet the date for the Exodus is set circa 1445BC.

And also Akhenaten was AFTER the Exodus , I have PROOF of it. Some think that the Exodus took place under Ramses II who was in the 19th dynasty, but it was Amenhotep II (in the 18th dynasty) which was at the height of Egypts, power and glory, that the Exodus took place. But the Egyptians did not record it, because the 7 plagues of God upon the Egyptians, put to shame not only the greatest pharaoh of all time, but all the Gods of the Egyptians (including the chief god Amon-Ra). The Egyptians made it that Amenhotep III was at the height of Egypts power, but he wasn’t.

I don’t’ want to start a big topic about this so please…….just ask me quietly, and I’ll be happy to send you info, if you want it. It’s important for you to understand tho, that one of the main purposes of the Exodus, and the 7 plagues of Egypt were sent in mercy to that GREAT Empire, as part of God’s effort to bring Egypt to a true knowledge of the only one true living God, that is above all other gods. But Egypt (especially Pharaoh and the priests) was too proud to repent and realize that all their gods were shams. And if you doubt that the Exodus took place, modern archeology has produced the most convincing evidence of that whole historical landmark. Proving once more the validity of the Bible.

If you think you can figure out God, take a look at what he told Job ( Job 11:7-9) “canst thou by searching find out God? Canst thou find the almighty unto perfection? It is as high as the heavens ; what canst thou do? Deeper than hell; what canst thou know? The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.”


[This message has been edited by Hydarnes (edited 03-02-99).]

[This message has been edited by Hydarnes (edited 03-02-99).]

Dhamon
Inactive
posted 03-02-99 00:40 AM ET (US)     24 / 34       
This topic intrestes me greatly, since the meaning, and purpose of religion to me, have been questioned much this past few months. however, the thing which anoys me the most, is not the content written by some of the people, but the format it is written in.

Hydarnes - please for the love of ____ ( fill in your choice of devine being(s) or an appropiate noun) make your paragraphs much SMALLER. Maybe it is just me, but when I try to read say more than 6-7 lines of single spaced text with out breaks, it is almost impossable. If you would break them up into about the same size as say Xevioso, they would be much easier to read, and Im sure that I(and everybody else reading) would get much more out of your posts

As to where I stand on religion.... Im a Unitarian Universalist.

To those who don't know, UU is a contextualy new religion(circa 1800s), which preaches tolarence, acceptance, and respect, of other religious ideas, culture, gender ect... Freedom of thought, and Freedom of spirit (finding your own religious beliefs), and the search for truth, and meaning, are the foundations of Unitarian Universalism.


Please, make your paragraphs smaller.

Scarab
Clubman
posted 03-02-99 09:18 AM ET (US)     25 / 34       
I promised myself that I wouldn't jump into your theistic argument of creationism vs. evolutionism, or my god is better than yours. For all who have been posting: please stop siting inaccurate data, or completely wrong scientific information.

Hydarnes, in your original post, you stated that many scientists agree about the overwhelming impossiblity of the 'micro-organism' coming into existance. Who are these scientists? Are they the ones with PhD's is snowball making or tunnel vision?

Anyway, here is some scientific info. if you want more let me know, because I don't want to inundate everyone with pages of stuff that they can find in the library or on the internet.

I. Chemical evolution

The abiotic chemical evolution of life follows four major steps:

1. the abiotic synthesis and accumulation of small organic molecules, or monomers, such as amino acids and nucleotides;
2. the joining of these monomers into polymers, including proteins and nucleic acids;
3. the aggregation of abiotically produced molecules into droplets, protobionts, that had chemical characteristics different from their surroundings; and
4. the origin of heredity. (Campbell)

organic molecules have been successfully generated from abiotic elements by scientists Miller and Urey. These molecules have exibited many (not all) of the qualifications for biological life. Keep in mind, a viris isn't a lifeform under these criteria, yet they're pretty close.

II. Expanding universe (Big Bang stuff)
(too much for me to type here)

Evidence that the universe will expand forever at a constantly accelerating
rate has been selected as the top scientific advance of 1998 by the editors of Science, a leading research journal. Their press release, with all 10 stories, is at www.eurekalert.org/releases/aaas-sattra98.html

III. Black holes

Some astonomers believe in their existance, others do not. (small analogy here) If you don't buy into the 'black hole theory', how would you explain Cygnus X1, M104 in galaxy NGC 4594....ect...I think that this arguement has as much to do with AOE as this thread.

enough. now you can get back to saving yourselves and figuring out if the burning bush could counter a CA rush.

[This message has been edited by Scarab (edited 03-02-99).]

[This message has been edited by Scarab (edited 03-02-99).]

[This message has been edited by Scarab (edited 03-02-99).]

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