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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » So, there has been no real update to AoE DE in months...
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Topic Subject:So, there has been no real update to AoE DE in months...
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PhatFish
Mr. Beta
posted 05-21-18 01:27 PM ET (US)         
And the game is suffering massively because of this. I've sort of lost interest too, haven't played it much the last couple of weeks. It has a huge potential to be an absolutely awesome game, yet there has not been any real content update since... the release. Only a few bugfixes here and there.

DE is lacking some serious needed features mentioned a dozen times by members all over the community. The most frustrating of all however is that there has been absolutely ZERO communication from the devs since the first week of release. Obviously FE are working on AoE2 DE and I get that most resources are now allocated to that, but you can't just abandon AoE DE and leave it in a half finished state.

It's called definitive edition for a reason, right?

Anyways, here's a similar topic on the official aoe forums:

Support for the game is dead

What are your thoughts?



AuthorReplies:
DoomFrost
Clubman
(id: Cyrix)
posted 07-05-18 07:31 PM ET (US)     26 / 104       
It would have been nicer if they had just ported the assets over to the Genie 2 engine and then work on any technical issues they'd run across.

Graphical updates are great and all, but I would loved Genie 2's trigger system, hotkey manager, map copy, scenario editor, rms scripting system, extended scenario game modes, etc...

Also imagine having Genie 2's game mechanics ready at your disposal? Steam Workshop support could have opened mod projects like adding a trading system to Age of Empires markets, garrison structures, herdable animals, and whatever else. Modding would have been great.
Cataphract887
Clubman
posted 07-05-18 08:46 PM ET (US)     27 / 104       
Maybe an AoE1 fanatic can correct me, but the biggest difference between AoE and AoK seems like the square\circular unit hitboxes and the ability for AoK units to suspend hitbox detection altogether in certain situations(squeeze 40 crossbowmen into a 1-tile gap between houses for instance) I was thinking if the units in the remake simply had this square hitbox added and formations removed it would go a long way to recreating to gameplay experience. Of course the shape of the interface shouldnt be too hard to rework to look like AoE1 (for a professional dev team and not amateur modders, that is)

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
Epd999
Scout
posted 07-06-18 04:07 AM ET (US)     28 / 104       
Though that is a huge difference. I think the biggest difference will be how unforgiving AoE is compared to AoK. If a knight in AoK comes into your base from a hole in your wall you can garrison in towers and tc's, however the same cannot be said if a cavalry were to get inside your base. If you're not pumping any form of military yourself, you need to run or quick wall, else your villagers die.

Lost Empires Mod
Maybe it's only a fool who'll perilously journey out to what might not be there. But if you want to solve problems, you don't just solve the ones that are there, you find more and make more and go after the impossible ones.
The neanderthals never ventured into the unknown and they went extinct, so who are the fools?
Cataphract887
Clubman
posted 07-06-18 09:49 AM ET (US)     29 / 104       
Good point, the town center in AoE1 is defenseless. That is even easier to fix though, just removing the ability to garrison. You can already do this with triggers in the UP1.5

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
PhatFish
Mr. Beta
posted 07-06-18 01:42 PM ET (US)     30 / 104       
I would loved Genie 2's trigger system, hotkey manager, map copy, scenario editor, rms scripting system, extended scenario game modes, etc...
I would have loved to have most of this in DE, but alas.



sulphuric99
Clubman
posted 07-07-18 03:03 PM ET (US)     31 / 104       
> It would have been nicer if they had just ported the assets over to the Genie 2 engine and then work on any technical issues they'd run across.

But then it wouldn't have been a remaster. It would be like, instead of just cleaning up Star Trek TOS to remaster it, they completely refilmed it with new actors but kept the same scripts. It wouldn't be the same thing at all. It would be like playing Age 2 with different graphics.

One major issue with Age 1 is that it uses a technically inferior engine vs. Age 2's. Age 2 had dozens of man years of additions and improvements by Ensemble and others. Much of the community wasn't ready, expecting, or wanting to go back to that old play style and to the old engine's mechanics, even with some improvements. So DE got stuck in a bad place:

1. The minority of fans who actually loved and played the original Age 1 and basically like DE just the way it is.
They want more improvements and fixes, but they aren't screaming endlessly about the lack of formations for example. They seem content that DE is really exactly what it was advertised to be: an improved remaster.

2. The Age 2 fans who seem to want or expected Age 1 content in an Age 2-like engine. When they got DE there was basically an "impedance mismatch" between what they expected (Age 2 mechanics/engine with HD Age 1 content) and what they got (improved Age 1 mechanics/engine with HD Age 1 content).

This is the same group that cries about the lack of things like gates and formations in DE. Gates/formations never existed in Age 1 - why would a *remaster* include these game changing features? (We would have had to rebalance all the units and fix who knows what new problems in order to introduce these features.)

3. The RTS fans who haven't played (or cared much about) either of these games. They generally don't like the now-ancient Age 1 mechanics and gameplay.

Most of the reviewers fell into categories 2 or 3. Most of the "professional" reviews came out just as multiplayer was being finalized, making matters worse (and now these reviews are inaccurate but not being updated). And if you combine all that with the numerous early Windows Store and UWP bugs, it was a nightmare.

Anyhow, now we're at a point were the game has shipped but for all practical purposes isn't being maintained. The correct thing to do, in order to prevent damage to the franchise, would be to put a small team (even part time) on Age DE, to make sure it doesn't bitrot. (And it will because UWP is a total disaster, but that's another topic.)

[This message has been edited by sulphuric99 (edited 07-07-2018 @ 03:55 PM).]

Cataphract887
Clubman
posted 07-07-18 11:44 PM ET (US)     32 / 104       
Gates/formations never existed in Age 1 - why would a *remaster* include these game changing features?
What about walkable farms? Those are related to gates, an obvious aok-esque feature.

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
sulphuric99
Clubman
posted 07-08-18 00:10 AM ET (US)     33 / 104       
> What about walkable farms? Those are related to gates, an obvious aok-esque feature.

As a important note, I wasn't involved in the planning or conception of DE, so I can only speculate and give opinions about things like gates.

I do remember walkable farms introducing tricky bugs when they were introduced. I suspect gates were just too complex to introduce given the already full workload and short time period that the team had to work with.

> Why do u think M$ shoot themselves in the foot by making this game an UWP app only to Win10?

In order to grow the Windows Store they need to add real content to attract customers. Right now it's more valuable for them to attract new users vs. make sales off any single product like DE. Also, as both technologies are immature (which everybody and their dog knows), they also need products like DE to help work out the kinks.

Long term, I suspect DE will be migrated to Steam eventually so they can actually get sales.

[This message has been edited by sulphuric99 (edited 07-08-2018 @ 01:55 AM).]

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 07-08-18 07:39 AM ET (US)     34 / 104       
M$ has been one failure after another regarding gaming this console generation and that applies to PC too as this shows. It ha been so pathetic that I don't get angry anymore. I just laugh.

Nothing surprises me. It is like someone 120 years old dying. You may get sad still, but you knew it would happen anyways.

I still Love AoE DE, I'd play more if: I had more time and allowed me to play offline.
chab
Clubman
posted 07-08-18 08:21 AM ET (US)     35 / 104       
@sulphuric99:
I disagree with what you say about Aoe DE.

I fixed dozens of engine bugs, and the game is still AoE1, it has not become a AOE2-like game. It still keeps its gameplay, its identity. It's just bugfixing (and adding a few features).

I don't see why M$ could not do the same, some bugs are very easy to fix.
I could fix many bugs without the source code and M$ developers couldn't ? WTF ?

Did they lose their own sourcecode ? lol
Adding nice graphics is cool, but this is not what people expected. This whole thing does not look serious to me. As a proof, they were not even able to deliver their own corrected configuration (empires.dat), they just took one a user's file from a mod (being UPatch, but which mod it is is not the question here) ! Ridiculous !
DoomFrost
Clubman
(id: Cyrix)
posted 07-08-18 11:09 AM ET (US)     36 / 104       
"But then it wouldn't have been a remaster. It would be like, instead of just cleaning up Star Trek TOS to remaster it, they completely refilmed it with new actors but kept the same scripts. It wouldn't be the same thing at all. It would be like playing Age 2 with different graphics."

Genie 1 and Genie 2 are the same engine, Genie 2 is just more refined. In this case like I said before, you're just porting over the assets, the data, what makes the game and it's gameplay work. Genie 2 is quite capable of handling Age 1's demands since, well, you know, it did it before?

Things like market code, formations, walkable farms, trading, anything else doesn't need to be included. This isn't "let's just change the graphics of an AoK house to an AoE house" instead it's "let's use the Genie 2 engine as the foundation for Age of Empires instead of Genie 1."

You'll find that Genie 2 is quite capable of handling it. And the features I mentioned above that are with Age of Kings would just sit in the background until the modding community comes in.

It would be something that would extend the original Age of Empires lifespan quite possibly indefinitely.
sulphuric99
Clubman
posted 07-08-18 08:27 PM ET (US)     37 / 104       
> You'll find that Genie 2 is quite capable of handling it.

Yes, modding Genie 2 would have been one path to making an Aoe 1-like game. It still wouldn't capture all the nuances of AoE 1's pathing/movement/combat, but it could have been made close enough. AoE 1 clearly isn't Starcraft so I suspect few would have really cared much anyhow.

After thinking about it, modding Genie 2 wouldn't have made the developer's jobs easier. The 64-bit UWP port, D3D 11 port, Xbox Live stuff, and HD graphics/art work would still have had to be done. In addition, we would have had to hack up Genie 2 to emulate AoE 1's mechanics, and I can only speculate how complex that would have been to do.

For better or worse, what was greenlit was a Genie 1 engine title. Basically a "pure" remaster of AoE 1. One of the original Ensemble devs worked on this effort in the background off and on for years to make it happen. On paper, it was a great idea. If we would have had more development time, I'm quite confident that we could have addressed most of the remaining issues with the title.

I'm still playing it online every night and having a blast, FWIW.

> I don't see why M$ could not do the same, some bugs are very easy to fix.
> I could fix many bugs without the source code and M$ developers couldn't ? WTF ?
> Adding nice graphics is cool, but this is not what people expected. This whole thing does not look serious to me. As a proof, they were not even able to deliver their own corrected configuration (empires.dat), they just took one a user's file from a mod (being UPatch, but which mod it is is not the question here) ! Ridiculous !

All I will say is please go add Xbox Live, UWP support, etc. to UPatch and then come back and tell me how easy it was. :-)

It was a very serious effort by multiple people. We did the best we could with the time and resources we had. The fact that it was greenlit and released at all speaks to the seriousness and dedication of everyone involved. I personally went way beyond the call of duty on this title because I'm ex-Ensemble and I wanted to see it do as well as possible.

The UWP, Xbox Live, MP, AI, and pathing/movement portions were hard to get working reliably and definitely taxed everyone. And once you add in the out of syncs (from the new features that destabilized the codebase) it was too much in the short schedule we had.

It'll be interesting to see what MS does with the title. It's becoming the redheaded stepchild of the Age series.

[This message has been edited by sulphuric99 (edited 07-08-2018 @ 08:50 PM).]

DoomFrost
Clubman
(id: Cyrix)
posted 07-08-18 09:15 PM ET (US)     38 / 104       
"It still wouldn't capture all the nuances of AoE 1's pathing/movement/combat"

What "nuances"? The pathing and combat are the same. Genie 2 is Genie 1, they didn't build a new engine from scratch, they took the original engine they used for Age 1 and improved it, it still has the characteristics of Age of Empires 1.
sulphuric99
Clubman
posted 07-09-18 04:29 AM ET (US)     39 / 104       
> What "nuances"? The pathing and combat are the same. Genie 2 is Genie 1

In Genie 1, there's basically zero explicit coordination between units. Any group behavior you see is really just pure emergent behavior. The units are basically just randomized ants. When it works it looks more or less okay, and when it fails it looks ridiculous and is annoying to the player. In Genie 2, there's a lot more coordination and planning going on between the units (to implement coordinated unit movement and formations), and so the code is *very* different. (How do I know? I spent around a half year fixing DE's broken movement and pathing code. I was the developer in the trenches doing the actual work. It was intricate, difficult work. The Age 2 devs had A LOT of work to do because the original Age 1 code barely worked at all.)

Anyhow, I'm not here to argue with folks. The Age community is very hard to communicate with honestly. It's interesting that when I'm actually playing DE online, people are just having fun and enjoying the game as it is. I've had hundreds of games and overall it's been very fun. But on the forums (and reviews), it's put down so much. I think everyone (including MS) misunderstands just how hard these titles are to create and release.

[This message has been edited by sulphuric99 (edited 07-09-2018 @ 04:34 AM).]

DoomFrost
Clubman
(id: Cyrix)
posted 07-09-18 08:47 AM ET (US)     40 / 104       
Thanks for the explanation, if my posts came out as argumentative, I apologize.
Cataphract887
Clubman
posted 07-09-18 07:01 PM ET (US)     41 / 104       
The Age community is very hard to communicate with honestly. It's interesting that when I'm actually playing DE online, people are just having fun and enjoying the game as it is
No kidding, the people choosing to play any game no matter how unpopular or badly reviewed are obviously the ones who choose to enjoy it despite what issues. What percentage those players make up of the overall or original audience of players would be the measurement of success, if one is needed at all.
Anyhow, I'm not here to argue with folks.
Well, I for one have no idea who the decs are unless they announce themselves or use the blue name coloring. I typically dont go out of my way to communicate with devs and dont generally intend to discuss these things with anybody but other gamers. Its not my intention to go bashing the devs in person. Anything I said above certainly wasnt intended to be read by a dev, but if they come where ive been for a long time already there isnt much to do to avoid it.

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
Epd999
Scout
posted 07-10-18 00:55 AM ET (US)     42 / 104       
I don't think I'll get too involved in these discussions. Some devs do come here. Most of the current devs were gamers before they were devs. In fact a "dev" has already posted in this topic. A big difference would be for using genie 2 would be how accuracy and projectiles function.
The minority of fans

The thing is those fans don't want those features, there were those who didn't even want multi-queue. They don't want it to stay the same, because myself, Phatfish and many others can see it has many flaws but we're not talking about adding garrison or unit formations.
I suspect gates were just too complex to introduce given the already full workload and short time period that the team had to work with.
No, they said multiple times that they weren't going to be adding gates or the ability garrison units. I'm sure even walkable farms was a controversial and difficult decision.
All I will say is please go add Xbox Live, UWP support, etc. to UPatch and then come back and tell me how easy it was. :-)
I get what you're addressing but chab has a got completely valid points, it was only difficult because of how many bugs the store has. And it's not very good regardless. What made the transition difficult were all the bugs. The 1.0 farm bug even managed to creep back in and almost made it in on release.
As a proof, they were not even able to deliver their own corrected configuration (empires.dat), they just took one a user's file from a mod (being UPatch, but which mod it is is not the question here) ! Ridiculous !
That being said, this is not the case. DE was based on Upatch but never included any of its files. For example, the player cheat is not present in DE but is in RockNRoR & Upatch. I don't know if that's a data thing or a .exe thing but I was informed by a dev it was based on Upatch and did not actually use the empires.dat. (I'll make sure to double check this and apologize if I misinterpreted what they said).
The Age community is very hard to communicate with honestly. It's interesting that when I'm actually playing DE online, people are just having fun and enjoying the game as it is.
I'm not sure what you mean by this so I will answer all interpretations of it.
1. No, you just need to know where to look. There was a community of players (mostly experts) who looked at the balance of DE and gave suggestions on them. That's how Carthage got 15% HP on camel riders. The players being difficult to communicate with isn't the issue, it's the lack of communication towards the community I never liked.

2. If your referring with actually holding a conversation with them then, yeah, that may be true. It just depends who you play with and talk to online. If you talked to someone who self-taught themselves English by playing online then I understand what you mean, but that's because of a language barrier and it's great that they've managed to get a basic understanding of English (or other languages).

3. If you're referring to how toxic some players can be that can be found in all communities but I have found a lot of difficult people to talk to because of their toxicity.

Lost Empires Mod
Maybe it's only a fool who'll perilously journey out to what might not be there. But if you want to solve problems, you don't just solve the ones that are there, you find more and make more and go after the impossible ones.
The neanderthals never ventured into the unknown and they went extinct, so who are the fools?

[This message has been edited by Epd999 (edited 07-10-2018 @ 04:36 AM).]

chab
Clubman
posted 07-10-18 05:28 PM ET (US)     43 / 104       
For example, the player cheat is not present in DE but is in RockNRoR & Upatch. I don't know if that's a data thing or a .exe
of course it is an exe thing.
empires.dat contains the maps/civs/units/techs configuration
Epd999
Scout
posted 07-10-18 07:14 PM ET (US)     44 / 104       
I know what it contains . Yeah, it was based on Upatch and didn't use any of its components.

Lost Empires Mod
Maybe it's only a fool who'll perilously journey out to what might not be there. But if you want to solve problems, you don't just solve the ones that are there, you find more and make more and go after the impossible ones.
The neanderthals never ventured into the unknown and they went extinct, so who are the fools?

[This message has been edited by Epd999 (edited 07-10-2018 @ 07:15 PM).]

EpiC_Anonymous
Scout
(id: SeH_Mystical)
posted 07-12-18 10:30 AM ET (US)     45 / 104       
Chab,


I agree its probably a .exe thing, although do not think so 100%, you would be truly surprised where some cheats originate from. even something as a civ file that effects the game in some format can form a cheat, usually it just causes glitches though.

But I have seen it happen before. Even caused it.

"In 1678 doctors diagnosed a mental affliction soldiers suffered from as 'nostalgia' - homesickness, a longing to return to the past. The cruel reality of war is that there is no return home. No return to innocence. What is lost, is lost forever. Like my father, war's wounds have bled me dry. No words of comfort; no words of forgiveness. No words at all."
chab
Clubman
posted 07-12-18 12:05 PM ET (US)     46 / 104       
yes sure, and some cheats are no more but techs (big bertha or stuff like that).
Technically speaking you're right, actually you could even cheat with a scenario text...
EpiC_Anonymous
Scout
(id: SeH_Mystical)
posted 07-12-18 07:49 PM ET (US)     47 / 104       
There is a lot you could do with a simple file, any file.

"In 1678 doctors diagnosed a mental affliction soldiers suffered from as 'nostalgia' - homesickness, a longing to return to the past. The cruel reality of war is that there is no return home. No return to innocence. What is lost, is lost forever. Like my father, war's wounds have bled me dry. No words of comfort; no words of forgiveness. No words at all."
PhatFish
Mr. Beta
posted 07-13-18 06:47 AM ET (US)     48 / 104       
How do you cheat using a scenario text though?



local boi
Clubman
(id: dragon14)
posted 07-13-18 10:31 PM ET (US)     49 / 104       
It sounds to me like the game is not in a good state right now. I'm more worried about if it is being abandoned than any bugs it currently has. Can someone clear this up for me?

(I'll put off my purchase at least until next month, regardless)

USA
katsup or mustard
EpiC_Anonymous
Scout
(id: SeH_Mystical)
posted 07-14-18 09:07 AM ET (US)     50 / 104       
Let me reiterate this about AoE DE, The game has lost all support and is officially being declared dead by the community, They have not updated this in months and have closed their discord channel to, so I am sure it is a done deal sadly. The community is there still, there is always from what I have noticed a few games throughout the day just about at all times.

I play with the elites because I am the top elite in DE, I can beat IronSteel and such, in fact I think I'm the one who holds they quickest Iron time thus far at 17:14 I think it was or 17:24.
We play still just got to catch them game on whenever it is on, usually in the evenings for me and I'm in gmt - 5.

But overall, The game is dead. Now if I can obtain permission to play with it in modding and such by breaking the .exe I will be glad to, but I do highly doubt Microsoft will be super happy about that.
But id be glad to do it, who do I write? lol.

"In 1678 doctors diagnosed a mental affliction soldiers suffered from as 'nostalgia' - homesickness, a longing to return to the past. The cruel reality of war is that there is no return home. No return to innocence. What is lost, is lost forever. Like my father, war's wounds have bled me dry. No words of comfort; no words of forgiveness. No words at all."
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