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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Roman vs Hittite
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Topic Subject:Roman vs Hittite
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Breydel
Clubman
posted 02-16-99 04:31 PM ET (US)         
OK, we've had so many civ vs civ discussions but never this one as far as I remember. Since Rome is my favorite civ I would like to hear your thoughts on this one. I personally think Rome has more advantages over Hittite than in the other direction.


Breydel

[This message has been edited by Breydel (edited 02-16-99).]

AuthorReplies:
Sting
Clubman
posted 02-16-99 04:52 PM ET (US)     1 / 35       
hittite just owns rome too much in bronze age for rome to beat hittite. Hittite goes camels, a few CAs, and STs, and the roman is gonna have trouble...


"Being a Hero is over-rated" -Vegeta

O_Captian
Inactive
posted 02-16-99 05:13 PM ET (US)     2 / 35       
Hittite rules roman unless you can pull off the axer/tower rush in tool. Hittite has more weapons in bronze, and iron we don't even have to discuss.

Hittite CA's are of the elite 3, and faster swordsman still have to cut the distance. Only one civs infantry (in bronze) can match, and those aren't from the barracks, mace hoppers w/ +3 piercing armour (w/ shield upgrade).

So, get him in tool, or simply die. IMO


He who has the last peon standing, wins!

[This message has been edited by O_Captian (edited 02-16-99).]

Ex_Akaval
Inactive
posted 02-16-99 05:15 PM ET (US)     3 / 35       
I think hittite would kill roman in Iron, in bronze: hittite has better navy (+4 range) on land I think hops is a very powerfull weapon against roman, the only answer romans have is thier own hops(barrack units just die to hops so do chariots), and build CA. Dont build too many STs just 2 or 3 too take down towers.

Only thing romans have is the tool towerrush.


DeathByFire
Inactive
posted 02-16-99 05:35 PM ET (US)     4 / 35       
oh blah blah hittite is the best civ blah blah.... In iron Roman wins quite easy. cats + HA are hard, but w/ sythes and infantry, it can be done. Plus Heli are great, too. just keep them away from the cats. I was playing rome vs sum and hotkeying my heli and sythes worked great.

Infantry rip camels up, and only en masse CAs would be a big threat. Rome bronze is tricky, but can be done. Improved shouldn't be forgotten, too. Plus romans always have towers everywhere, so raiding isn't to common.

+4 range in a pure water battle isn't too hot since ships are fast. It's a pain when you LOSE it.


D_yerMak_er
Inactive
posted 02-16-99 06:37 PM ET (US)     5 / 35       
2 equal skilled players rome will win ALWAYS.
Tool rush: Rome wins, hittite cannot stop it
Brone rush: Rome wins with a swordsmen rush, hittite can't mass enough archers by the time a good swordsmen rush hits them. I can go on and on about a faster rome beats a hittite. I am sure folks will say blah, hittite owns rome, my hittite does not beat my rome!

Iron rush: umm, no such thing IMO. sure i can iron 17 mins with shang every game, but die anytime I try to I guess if both players agreed not to attack until iron. I suppose i would give it to Rome also. faster and could tower up enough to stop weak HA raids in early iron. That would be a close call.

Dyer


O_Captian
Inactive
posted 02-16-99 07:03 PM ET (US)     6 / 35       
Death,

You need to think before you write. Roman's are not the only ones that get scythes and oops so does hittite. Hittite and Choson rule in iron. Your bronze is not just tricky, its down right tough.

Hitties +1 attack really adds up in groups w/ CA's. Your infantry is HA fodder and any seige you want to bring on against the Siege King Civ, why not, I'll eat your wood and gold.


He who has the last peon standing, wins!

Breydel
Clubman
posted 02-16-99 07:54 PM ET (US)     7 / 35       
Let's compare hittite and roman in (post) Iron Age (super units and good units):

UNITS IN COMMON:
hcats, scythes, cents

HITTITE UNITS:
HHA's, armored eles, (ele archers), btowers, (fire galleys)

ROMAN UNITS:
legions, heles, priests, juggs, (triremes)

CONCLUSIONS:
1. They both got 5 good iron units that the other doesn't have.

2. Rome (re)takes the sea in Iron. Fire galleys are good units, I like 'em a lot but they lack the trireme support in the Hittite case. While Rome gets remes and juggs.

3. Roman HCat/Hele/Scythe combo is very hard to break. I think the hittite will need a lot of hcats to do so. But then the Roman can go more to scythes or martyred priests to handle the hittite cats.

I think in Iron they're about equal. Hittite probably is slightly better on land while Rome is better on the sea. But then again, I'm not so sure though. The helepolis is a really awesome weapon. Hittite don't get priests worth speaking of so they can't convert then. Besides, I've never seen a Hittite priest in all my games.

In Bronze I agree that Hittite can be better. Although 6 barracks nearby a Hittite's economy or base can seriously create havoc. CA's around or not! When I play Romans in Bronze, I usually go for a 50-50 swordsman/chariot combination with some scouts and stoners amoung them and a few priests if i'm not facing an archer civ.

In tool age, Rome definately rules. Period. Agreed, hittite has better bowmen, but they lack slingers!!! How the hell can they defeat half prized Roman towers? Not to mention the economical bonus because of Rome's cheaper buildings.


FWH_Deathon
Inactive
posted 02-16-99 08:16 PM ET (US)     8 / 35       
Hey Guys
Great post and responses. I think you're missing the whole idea though, no use doing the my Dad can beat ur Dad argument.It is painfully so that Hittite is the most feared civ in RoR.First off it's the easiest to master.They have enough bonuses and different units to make even the most average of player have awesome games.Now Vs Roman.The question should be, Hittite vs Roman how do u defend the roman tool rush, and how do u survive the uninjured Hittite in bronze- going iron. I have played every civ in RoR, to find myself continuely saying, man this civ rocks, but to later find a player with a different strat that just blows me away. As Roman vs Hittite, a small tool attack in neccessary, if not to throw ur opponant off his gameplan but to injure his economy, to give u a fighting chance in bronze.Esential to tower ur own town as it is to tower the gold around ur opponant.This will slow him only. The Roman swordsmen are deadly, but variety is needed vs a stronger civ.Mixing archer units buying ur infantry time to close in is an asset. A good player will and can find weaknesses of ANY civ. The important thing is to have the opponant play ur game.Keep the pressure on the Hittite player, from tool on.

FWH_Deathon


Breydel
Clubman
posted 02-16-99 08:25 PM ET (US)     9 / 35       
Ooh damn, almost forgot to mention:

Ex_Akaval posted before:

quote:
... on land I think hops is a very powerfull weapon against roman, the only answer romans have is thier own hops(barrack units just die to hops so do chariots)

Well, euh maybe you haven't noticed while playing hittite so much, but there is also another unit included in RoR. It was also in AoE. It is called... a priest. If you think a Roman will try his swordies on your hoppers u r very wrong. Rome has good priests and just converts them. If not, stone throwers can do the job and chariots/swordies can finish off if the cripple hopper comes too close to the cat.
Besides, if you are hittite and you are building hoppers in an attempt to break through a Roman, with all respect but I think you are a newbie. Hittite bronze main army is CA's/stone throwers and war galleys. Some hoppers can be used to confuse or distract the enemy but hittite doesn't need them for anything else (maybe some building destruction so his cats can move on).


DeathByFire posted before:

quote:
... Plus romans always have towers everywhere, so raiding isn't to common.

You are right. Instead of doing the usual tower rush, I tried something different lately. In bronze I got stonemining and had about 5 vills on a mine. 2 were building towers all over my base. My farmers, goldminers, woodies and some nice chokepoints: There were towers everywhere! When the enemy came in with CA's (I can't remember his civ) I saw him manoeuvering between them but it didn't work well. Sure I lost peons but all CA's were gone after a while. This was my first attemt of "base-towering" and I will try it again in the future when playing Rome.


Also from DeathByFire:

quote:
...+4 range in a pure water battle isn't too hot since ships are fast.

Sorry but I have to disagree. It's even such a pain in the āss that after he destroyed your navy, you better withdraw from all coastlines, deep into land. Very nasty on narrows. (Islands too probably but I don't play them much.) But then again, Rome can retake the seas in Iron.


O_Captian :

quote:
Your infantry is HA fodder and any seige you want to bring on against the Siege King Civ, why not, I'll eat your wood and gold.

Agreed! But that's exactly why I go 50/50 on swordies/chariots. Rome needs a fast unit and I usually get chariots for the job. The ones who make Iron become scythes and chariots don't comsume gold. I need it enough for swordies/stoners/priests/iron upgrade and technologies already.

Sorry for being such a critic but hey, do it on me too if ya want.

Breydel


Breydel
Clubman
posted 02-16-99 08:34 PM ET (US)     10 / 35       
Hehe, FWH_Deathon sneaked in between.

quote:
...The Roman swordsmen are deadly, but variety is needed vs a stronger civ.

You are absolutely right about the variety. That's what I like so much about Macedonian bronze. Macedonian hoppers/stoners/compies are a very good combination. Leave the comps out and the enemy will just ignore your army, pass it by and run to your economy. You are dead. End of story. Happened to me once when I didn't play Mace enough . Now I know better.


OK, I'm sorry that I have to leave my brand new own thread for 3 days. (Work abroad) I will get back here Friday this week to join the discussion again. See u then!

Breydel


lshaul
Clubman
posted 02-16-99 09:11 PM ET (US)     11 / 35       
Breydel did you suffer a head injury recently?


Die you Hittite b*****ds!

KaBaN the Great
Inactive
posted 02-16-99 09:23 PM ET (US)     12 / 35       
Hey Breydel, i think you mis understood Akaval, i mean do you think someone will use just hopers vs. Rome with Hittite?.. Hittite has one of the 3 best CA in the game! Surely they will support their hoppers! Those ca is key to help hoppers win! They can take down Roman Hoppers and priests. So if you play normal with Hittite, but add some hops it might actually work good. Good idea Akaval.

Do'h.. posted under my diffirent name..

[This message has been edited by KaBaN the Great (edited 02-16-99).]

Ex_Akaval
Inactive
posted 02-16-99 10:07 PM ET (US)     13 / 35       
Breydel,
We need to play a 1v1, I dont think logic would get to you.


Desert_Fox
Clubman
posted 02-16-99 10:19 PM ET (US)     14 / 35       
Okay... the Roman Econ is so much superior of that to Hitt in early game. A good Rome vs a good Hitt will tool rush the *^&* out of the Hitt.. However once it goes late bronze/early Iron.. Hitt has advantage...

But as an overal civ.. I belive Rome has the uperhand.

DF


ricktsu
Inactive
posted 02-16-99 11:04 PM ET (US)     15 / 35       
its nice to see a good argument going...lately most have been kind of dull ...like that guy with the huge sig...but...i guess we are assuming a 1v1..that you have no allies on your team to help you against a tool rush from rome...i know that romans have cheap towers and that tower rushing can work ..but...first maybe the hittite towered his own town also...and if the romans are busy towering the enemys town in hopes of slowing down his bronze..then they can not completly tower their own town...not saying that cheap towers isnt effective...but its only going to be 1/2 as effective if you tower 2 areas on the board..and maybe the hittite is on a water board..so well you definitly cannot tower water...rome better build some navy to fight either the hittites navy or to kill off their fishing squad....now most likely if you run across a good hittite player....he is going to suspect a tower rush from rome...and he will probably set his base up so you really cannot get in close enough to kill him...he will most likely still bronze..and after that..romes in trouble...you say you tower your town and the c.archers have to go through the maze?? i dont know...in fact i wouldnt send on single unit through the maze..i would bring in a s.t and flatten evry tower..and as rome tries to bring out troops to beat the s.throwers down..they have to go through c.archers,,,camels/cavs and a few hoppers(trust me those things are useful and a couple of those little guys own chariots,camels and cavs...)and when all the towers are down..in comes the hittite bronze army as the civ is on their way to iron..and since rome has already spent probably a good deal of resources in trying to remove the hittite pest..they will be extremly weak...sure rome is a good civ..im not knocking them...but the lack of a good fast attack unit at iron(dont tell me scythe..you have to at least wait for the upgrade and get the resources to do it..while fending off an attack) makes them vulnerable...if you can make it to iron unmolested and make academy units..and ballistas and priests...yea they are a good civ...but i do not fear the romans i fear the hittites...


Sting
Clubman
posted 02-16-99 11:15 PM ET (US)     16 / 35       
Yes a roman can tool rush the *****outta the hittite, thats very true. In fact, thats probably the best way to go with rome.

First of all, this is a severe pet peeve of mine. Why does everyone use super units?
"Roman Hele/Hcat/Scythe chariot is pretty hard to stop"...good god this must be pretty far into the game...

Roman ballistas are nearly useless against hittite cats, I cant stress this enough. Pack the scythes, the HAs, and the catapults (a normal early-mid iron army) and the roman really cant do much. Swordsmen are pitiful, and ballistas get eaten by cats. Roman cats get eaten by double strength cats, and roman scythes can be taken care of with hittite scythes and/or lots of horse archers with alchemy.

Conclusion: Rome can take hittite in tool. But if I were a betting man, and the hittite reached bronze untouched, I would put money on the hittite...


"Being a Hero is over-rated" -Vegeta

Ender
Guest
posted 02-17-99 08:15 AM ET (US)     17 / 35       
well this isn't as easy as the minoan vs hittite discussion. Unlike minoan rome is good in iron age, they get everything minoan does + scythe chariots, problem is rome is pretty bad in bronze. You can say the broadswordsman rush is deadly but I think if it really was you'd see it happen in more than .01% of the games played with rome. Truth is it all depends on how well rome holds off hittite in bronze and gets to iron. With even economies in iron I'd give a very slight edge to hittite, since they have more mobile units in general, scythes+horse archers beats scythes, hittite siege beats rome siege, hittite cents beat rome legions.
I'd give my edge to hittite, but its by no means an easy battle.


epic_hoplite
Inactive
posted 02-17-99 11:16 AM ET (US)     18 / 35       
Rome has a big edge over hittie until middle bronze when Hittite gets massed CAs/STs. With the cheap building bonus, Rome should reach tool and bronze early than Hittie. Rome can do a tool age axer/slinger/tower rush, or swordmen rush in early bronze.

More about early bronze swordsmen rush. I agree that CA and hopper kill swordmen. However CA needs the wheel upgrade, so before Hittite gets its first CA, a few Roman short swords are already in his town, assuming the Roman player drop a few barracks outside the Hittie town. As for hoppers, we all know they are expensive in early bornze and take forever to build. Don't forget Rome enter Bronze early. A few swordsmen in early bronze can force the entire Hittie tribe to relocate, giving the Roman player a critical advantage.

In a 1v1 competitive game between good players, I will bet my money on the Roman side.

A team game is a differnt story, I'd have at least 1 hittie on my side.


NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 02-17-99 01:18 PM ET (US)     19 / 35       
By now those of you who read my babble know exactly what I'm going to say.

Roman tool rushes the hittite.

Hittite player has to relocate woodcutting.

TC and houses go down.

Hittite player has to choose wood for new houses, boats, CA???

Lots of choices but not a lot of resources. If the hittite player insists on building CA in bronze rome keeps making slingers. AND I don't want to hear about how a hittite player if forced to relocate can have CA AND Siege workshops (200 wood) and ST's to take out slingers before the 20 min mark. VERY few people can pull it off.

In a 1 on 1 game, unles the map favors hittite (good choke points etc.) a tool rush pulled off with a under 10 min tool ends this game early.


Ender, Hittite hoplites?? Roman longswordsmen are a 4 to 1 gold production advantage over hoppers and at this ratio take down hoppers real fast. Unless your using HA and CA (which you should) in the back and hoppers just as slow down units this is a bad strat.

[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 02-17-99).]

Spam
Clubman
posted 02-18-99 09:34 AM ET (US)     20 / 35       
Rome vs Hittite should make for a very exciting game. Rome has the second best tool rush in the game, while Hittite is one of the most vulnerable civs in tool. Only strong naval support from +4 range scoutships can save Hittite from a strong, well-executed tool rush, IMHO. As for Bronze, Hittite obviously has the edge, but its nowhere near as huge as Rome's edge in tool. Lots of towers, lots of chariots and swordsmen is not a defensive force to sneeze at. A well-played Roman is hard to kill in bronze. As for Iron, they should be pretty even in early iron, with the advantage sliding towards Hittite the longer the game continues. In DM, Rome is not a serious threat to Hittite, for instance.

However, the Roman should be able to go iron much faster than the Hittite if he sets his mind to it - cheap farms, protected by cheap towers, and more wood for farms/navy since his bronze army is not as wood-dependent as Hittite's. These things contribute to a fast iron. And if the Roman can go hard scythes or longswordsmen before the Hittite can mass HAs, its all over.

My 2 cents

Spam


[This message has been edited by Spam (edited 02-18-99).]

Ender
Guest
posted 02-18-99 11:23 AM ET (US)     21 / 35       
umm, I don't think I said anything about hoppers. Against legions I'd probably just go scythes and horse archers, but if you really want to do a comparison of comparable units the hittite centurions will win vs roman legions especially if you add in some horse archers.

I also dont' like to say one civ wins because of tool, I've had a lot more tool rushes fail against me than succeed so I don't think its always a valid point. In fact I beat a hardcore shang toorush by one of the actives with hittite... now it was a well pulled off tool rush I just was able to relocate well, I fought him off and bronzed and it was game over. Not having slingers isn't a big deal, 10 axemen will kill 10 slingers easily, especially if you add a few villagers.

In bronze I think the advantage is still hittite, but once rome irons they have the advantage for a while, but I still think horse archers/scythes/catapults will beat romes best combo. Catapults own helepolis, scythes+horse archers own everything else rome gets.

Its a close battle so nobody wins hands down, but I think if I had to do the battle I'd take hittite. Kinda like the phoenician vs minoan battle, i think its very close but I prefer phoenician in it, as long as I can contain them even if they get helepolis I should be able to run them out of gold with phoenician.


WarLust
Inactive
posted 02-18-99 11:37 AM ET (US)     22 / 35       
Ahhh....I saw this post and had to jump in on this discussion, as Rome is my pet civ, and some of you already know that I have written a Roman strategy guide, which should be available here soon.

I have read most of the posts here and while I agree with some, I disagree with more of them. Given a decent starting position, Rome can defeat a Hittite rather well. We all know Hittite reigns supreme as the "best" overall civ, but they can be beaten using Roman and I have done it many times.

I will point out alot of this in the guide, but mostly Rome has several advantages against civs like Hittite.

1). They can Tool rush better.

2). They have a superior economy.

3). They will progress through the ages faster.

4). They can counter EVERY unit in Iron.

Hittite has no chance against a well executed Roman Tool rush. Without slingers, Hittite is in trouble if the Roman player towers his base. Accompanied with axers and archers, Hittite will be forced to move elsewhere and rebuild, exhausting precious resources and time.

I agree that Rome's bronze is inferior to Hittite's....in fact, inferior to most other civs, but they still can fight. Forget about swordsmen. They will die to archers. Mass chariots are very useful and will be beneficial once in iron as they can be upgraded to scythes. I hate to research anything in bronze if I am not going to use it in Iron. To me researching improved bowmen is useless. Research swordsmen only if you are going to use them in Iron. I stay away from swordsmen because then Rome would be a VERY gold dependent civ. You need the scythe chariot to relieve your gold consumption in Iron. Believe me, using a lot of cats and helos will deplenish your gold reserves quickly. Also, Rome needs some fast units for vilager killing and scythes are great for that.

Against civs like Hittite and Sumerian, of which have superior cats, I use a scythe/helo combo. Why? People who play Hittite mostly use a cat/HA combo. Cats die easily to scythes and it would be foolish for Rome to have a cat battle against Hittite. Use the scythes for cats and horse archers, then follow in with the helos for archer cleanup and finally building destruction.

If the Hittite player becomes smart and makes scythes, then you already have Helos for them. Scythes die miserably to Helos. Only against poor siege civs like Phoenician and Egyptian would I use cat/helo combo, and then I would still have scythes for priest killing.

Rome can beat Hittite a lot easier than what most people think. The tricky part is getting past bronze while Hittite is in bronze, but that shouldn't happen if you Tool rushed him right. Hittite has a vastly superior bronze, but Rome can still fight. Tower up your base with those cheap towers and make chariots and some upgraded slingers. As for navy, Hittite has the advantage through bronze, but once iron, Rome reigns supreme on the seas.

Good luck and cya on the battlefield

WarLust


Spam
Clubman
posted 02-19-99 09:58 AM ET (US)     23 / 35       
I'm not so sure I agree that Roman bronze is so crappy as some people here seems to suggest. If you can wall and tower properly, the Roman broadsword army is very, very dangerous. I agree that its harder and slower to get the Roman bronze warmachine going, and that it has distinct defensive weaknesses, but if you can get it going nothing will stop it. 40+ broads tear down everything if an opponent isn't walled properly. I have done it numerous times, and it works well, even against Hittite opponents.

My 2 cents.

Spam


dshea
Inactive
posted 02-19-99 01:11 PM ET (US)     24 / 35       
Hittite wins. Almost hands down, IMHO.

I find WarLust's post to be the most coherent and complete, so I will try to work on his points. I will not bother to talk about the "post-iron" scenario, because few games I am in ever get there.

I do not disagree that Rome has a better tool rush. Hittite bwmen vs roman slingers is an equal battle, due to the Hittite archer bonus, but the lack of slingers causes the tower rush to be unstoppable, the Hittite must run.

If Rome tool rushes, their economy is no stronger than the Hittite's, as the Hittite will have a few more vills. If you don't win in tool, we make bronze. You have not been towering at home, since you have been rushing. A few Hittite chariot archers do a job on your economy before dropping to the unmassed towers.

If no one tool rushes, Hittite still wins in bronze. To get useful rax units against hittite archers requires the bronze shield and 2 upgrades, axer and shortsword. To get useful archers the hittite requires the wheel. There is little difference in time between the necessary upgrades. So the idea of a massive broad horde attacking inferior numbers of chariot archers is not accurate. But most importantly, the CAs are mobile, as Ender likes to point out, while the broads are much less so. The hittite has a great advantage in terms of map control.

In bronze, all possible army options have counters by the hittite. Broads are countered by cavalry/CAs. Towers by STs, chariots by camels.

While I do not deny that Rome could get to bronze faster than Hittite, that is not a given. On a water map, scoutships give good cover against attacks from Rome, and allow for attacks at coastal spots of the Rome economy. All factors which limit the Roman bronze speed.

So, while I do not think that Rome is a "bad" civ, I think comparison with Hittite is not wise. Again, the side issues of Rome, cheap towers, great Post Iron ability, lots of superunits, blind people to the reality of a weak bronze military machine. They are not unusable, but a powerhouse they are not.

O_Captian
Inactive
posted 02-19-99 02:58 PM ET (US)     25 / 35       
Dang fine post dshea (note to myself, never play against this guy). One additional point in favor of hittite, if you build 4 towers by your resource centers, 2 by woodies one by gold and one at tc. Its going to be tough for a roman to pull a tower rush.
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