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Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Roman vs Hittite
Topic Subject:Roman vs Hittite
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posted 02-16-99 04:31 PM ET (US)         
OK, we've had so many civ vs civ discussions but never this one as far as I remember. Since Rome is my favorite civ I would like to hear your thoughts on this one. I personally think Rome has more advantages over Hittite than in the other direction.


[This message has been edited by Breydel (edited 02-16-99).]

posted 02-19-99 06:37 PM ET (US)     26 / 35       
The point of rome is to NEVER let the enemy bronze... Tool the *(&^ out of them and there is next to nothing a Hitt can do. Even if the Hitt makes it bronze the Roman Slingers can mop up and CA he manages to get out..


posted 02-19-99 07:49 PM ET (US)     27 / 35       
Hi again all. Very nice posts since I left. Thx.

Hey Warlust, I never thought about it like that but you're right, Rome moves through the ages quicker than Hittite. When in Bronze, Hittites have to build expensive CA's, war galleys and stoners to take their strengths in advantage. Some people mentioned hoppers, well they're not exactly the cheapest unit around too. Agreed, Roman priests, stoners and chariots aren't cheap too, but those swordies are. Include that with the cheap buildings and towers and it's a fact.

Please inform us when your Roman guide is completed WarLust. I can't wait to read it. If any other people have one, please inform me where I can find it. I'm determened to play Rome as much as possible and get the best out of them in ANY game vs ANY civ on ANY map type. ANY (LOL) Roman strat guide is welcome. I can inform u of what I think about your strat if u want.

Ishaul said before:

Breydel did you suffer a head injury recently?

Aswer: Euh no last time I checked with my doctor everything was just fine, but thanks for your concern anyway :p. No serious, I'm really wondering why u react like this Ishaul. Plz explain.

And then there is the matter Ex_Akaval. . He posted here in my Rome vs. Hittite thread and I replied to what he said (notice it's unedited so you can read the original). Then he posts a very childish message in my Egyptian priest topic (you can read it in "Egypt has the best priests? Not in my opinion!" posted by myself). Next that happened is me logging on to the Zone today (like I said, after 3 days due to work abroad) and receiving a lot of very ugly ZM's from him (I took a screen capture after the worse part was over so see for yourself). I censored some parts because I think Omnivac or Mack would delete the image otherwise. Here it is:

Well I really don't like people with such an attitude! What I rather had seen was him explaining here why he would use Hittite hoppers but no acting like this! My guess is he realized I was wright and couldn't live with it or he just is a 10 year old kid who has a lot of growing up to do. Remembering his ZM's very clearly, I think both statements comply here. I hope you all know the "real" Ex_Akaval now.

Please note that I never heard of the name Ex_Akaval before. I never ZM-ed him (nor did he) and as far as I remember I never played a game with him.


posted 02-20-99 00:44 AM ET (US)     28 / 35       
This is a very fine thread with some posts by many world class players. I am not world class(hopefully someday) but will toss in my 2c worth !

I rated Rome in the same tier as Hitt in th ebest civ threads because IMO they are equal. Duh, Rome's tool is better, Duh.. Hitt late iron is the games best. Duh, Hitt is dangerous in mid/late bronze.. but Rome econ is faster and Rome can survive Hitt late bronze w/speed/towers/and broads and slingers if need be.

Rome slingers vs Hitt bowmen in a joke, LOL.
Slinger w/stone mining does 5 damage and kills bowman in 7 shots , while Hitt bowman does 2 damage to slinger and kills him in 13 shot. Plus bowmen cost 10 res more !

I have been going RAX TO THE MAX w/Rome all week and absolutely kicking butt in my beloved 3v3's (Vs a phoe I went siege and my heles/hcats trashed his phants) (vs blank's super star play we walled in and I lost at sea when it became 2 v 1 near me and my allies got trashed.. ie it did not come down to rax.. blank is amazingly good !)

RAX TO THE MAX uses little wood for units and everything you do is geared towards eventual fully upgraded legion flooding. Off course I place many towers every where to slow the enemy attcks up and to make their lives in town miserable. I have tons of wood for 63 cost farms and many ships if needed. Rax's build real quickly and legions pop out very fast and logistics lets me make 100 of them some times !100 legions only use 1500 gold. IMO if you run outta gold in a 3v3 using legions you screwed up !I win games running other civs outta gold ! Since, I don't need tons of wood I can get more stone/farms fast and TC/peon boom easily.
This is really different than the siege scythe way I used to play Rome but it may actually be best !!

Hitt can't make enough stuff usually to beat 100 fully upgraded roman legions.

Still Hitt is super in late iron w/Hcat HA etc..and I think the match up is equal !!.. neilkaz

posted 02-20-99 02:32 AM ET (US)     29 / 35       
Sorry Brey, didn't mean to be rude. You have some good points regarding Roman. Judging by the disturbing number of people in the net campaign of Washizu's who are playing Hittite I have concluded that Hittite is the "best" civ to play. A hittite player isn't assured of victory of course. Hittite is a very forgiving civ though. One can make mistakes with Hittite and still be okay. The same mistakes if made with Roman or most other civs would get one into trouble. Well more trouble then the Hittite. Yes I agree Rome should have the upper hand in tool. If something goes wrong though then the Roman player is going to find it much harder to prosecute a successful bronze war. Assuming the tool rush fails. I would be afraid to try to consistently tool rush with Rome. Bronze rushing isn't easy either. There is a lot that can go wrong with rushing and little margin for error. The point is I don't think that using Roman I could consistenly clobber my opponents in the early ages to slow the other player(s) down. Then the Hittite comes in with chariot archers and kills everything.

Probability is the problem. How often can a tool or bronze rush work? On gigantic maps rushes are not as effective. Smaller maps means that rushes are more likely to succeed.

I do like to play Roman. I can't remember if I've played them against a human opponent though. Still any civ can be effective and different players have different strats that work. I just don't think I could be very succesful with Romean without a lot more practice.

posted 02-20-99 04:23 AM ET (US)     30 / 35       
kind of fuuny you know..but i did play a random 3v3 and i was hiitite and opponent was roman..he tool rushed me with some axers..slowed me up a little..bronzed..hit me w/ chariots..hurt me hoppers tore up his forward military bases..but i was hurting and couldnt iron...he come the scythes..blah, blah blah, teamate was greek..couldnt fight her way away from rome..other greek ally took out minoans and phoe...almost...well...i definitly agree,,,,keep the hittite down..and rome can do it if pulled off correctly...maybe it also helped that my gold supply was inside my tree supply and on the coast so only 2 peons could get to it..other gold romes was too hard for me too relocate this early...his navy just picked off any attempt at my gold stash...damn sometimes i hate resource placement in continental maps...
posted 02-20-99 08:03 AM ET (US)     31 / 35       
Nice post Neilkaz. But hey! To me you are world class! I still like that Greek-Persia battle we had a few months ago where I got lucky to drag it into Iron. Too bad your ally smashed my Greek heles with catapult rocks and then your eles were all over my base . I should have build more cats in the end but I was running out of wood if I remember correct. My ally also didn't knew how to play Iron Choson while I needed his priests for your eles.
I'm glad to hear you are using other civs than Shang too in non random civ games and I like your RAX TO THE MAX thing. I'm gonna try it soon but I think I still will need some chariots to catch enemy vills. I like the way it saves wood for ships a lot. It's probably more than enough to beat the Hittite on sea in Bronze. (70W for a CA, 180W for a stoner if he plays the usual thing so he will have by far less wood for ships than the Roman's RAX TO THE MAX strat.)

I never play DM games but I was wondering how Hittite and Rome are doing against each other in DM. I don't want replies assuming who's the best on paper but I would like some replies of people who actually played it. Please include on what map it was (water maps or not).


posted 02-20-99 12:09 PM ET (US)     32 / 35       
Thx for the flattery Brey, but at best I am a level below world class. I still have too many bad/mediocre games which world class players rarely have. I am also typically dominated when one of the top 20 players is in the game , too. Not always but usually.. so I know I have things to learn and improve which is why I posted THE RAX TO THE MAX plan, to get constructive feedback.

It is extremely important to realize that any game"plan" must be flexible. I.E. your early scout during the bronze transition finds an enemy who you can flatten w/that 1 scout and two cav as soon as you bronze. Since you have a stable allready it would be silly wait for wheel for chariots or to RAX attack him when two cav will mess up his slow bronzing game.

It also would be silly not to research scythes and find out that gold has run out! I have my doubts as to whether you'd be able to trade for enough gold to keep pumping legion hordes !

When your opponent is "phant happy" show him what a dozen heles do to them.

When he's walled up behind fortifications w/ranged units inside for defence .. you off course need some cats to take down his walls.

Yes I agree a few chariots early are very useful both as ST defence and to fast attack peons. There is nothing wrong with mixing in scythes with your legion hordes. However Roman legions decimate everything they get next too and build very quickly and only cost 50 res. Provided you properly use forward builders you can really take advantage of the ability to create reinforcements very quickly.. raxes build in 20 sec w/arch and legions build in 25 sec, so you can win a battle of attrition with many reinforcements.This sounds alot like Choson play in iron doesn't it? ... neilkaz...

The Conkster
posted 02-20-99 01:38 PM ET (US)     33 / 35       
Ive played hittite vs roman in DMs and hittite wins hands down...i think the romes winning depends more on their ability to iron faster. But im an idiot so dont mind me .
posted 02-21-99 10:04 AM ET (US)     34 / 35       
Yesterday evening I played 3 RM games with Rome (default settings). Two were on narrows, the other was on a cont map. All games were 3vs3.

On the cont map I tried a pitiful attempt of what should have been a tool rush on my neighbouring enemy (LOL). He found my tower builders and my barracks very early and disturbed my whole plan, hehe. I also had a very bad starting spot, a very weak economy and I even forgot to fish (shame on me!). Include those with the fact that my enemy was Assy and you can understand I had little answer to his CA/cav army knocking on my walls.

The other two games were a success. This time I didn't tool rush at all! I built about 25 real vills and 10-15 fishboats in both cases and bronzed somewhere between 14 and 15 minutes. (I probably can improve that time by fine-tuning my economy a little more but hey, I'm not an expert player.) I had 3 barracks and a stable near the enemy and 1 barracks at my base for the broad upgrade and some defensive swordsmen. I went into his town with 6 short swordies and had broads from 9 on. I constantly produced swordies in my barracks and kept the pressure on. Then I build some more barracks and started towering conquered territory.
The first enemy was Roman too. He towered (???) my 3 barracks but of course couldn't stop me from pumping out swordsmen. After I destroyed his farms and houses I upgraded to bronze shield and his towers were gone. He resigned shortly thereafter.
The other enemy was Sumerian. He had little amount of CA's in his town and didn't stop me from wiping his buildings away. Then he built a few camels and stone throwers but they couldn't stop my broadies.

Well I must say the RAX TO THE MAX from Neilkaz works very nice. A whole army of fully upgraded Bronze Roman broads all over the enemy's base is very fun to play with. Although a few scout horses are a real must! The Summy player killed mine and scouting with broadies isn't very effective at all. But like someone said before, they mowe down bases so fast it's scary. For houses and farms 1 broad is enough. On military buildings or TC's I use 4 and on less important buildings like granaries and storpits 2 are enough. Only problem with a swordsman army is that noise they make :p. I always have to tone down my speakers after attacking with swordies . Ok, serious again. In both games I didn't ran into walls (good fortune) and I didn't build war galleys. (On narrows maps seas are usually separated and therefore fishships don't need protection so badly as in cont/med.)

Well I think I must be the worse tool rusher ever (with all civs, even Shang) but what do you guys think about those 2 other games? Most opponents expect a tool tower/axer rush with Rome and some probably prepare for slinger production. What if towers don't show up and his slingers meet short swordsmen? Surprise surprise! I like the bronze swordies rush a lot more since your economy can still go on and u can start TC booming. On the very rare occasions I tool rush I usually mess it up anyway. And after a toolrush it takes so long before I can bronze and then usually another opponent attacks my base.


posted 02-21-99 11:25 PM ET (US)     35 / 35       
A few comments about your games(at the risk of turning this into our private thread, .. I am hoping others comment)

Game 1) You have a bad spot and are slow and discovered. All these facts mean don't tool rush at all. I have my doubts that you can afford to tool rush with a bad spot in a 3v3 when you are slow. Even if it works, you'll bronze at about 20 and be dead to a counter attack from some one else.

Games 2&3) Sounds to me like you did a nice job of bronzing quickly with a boom economy. Three rax's in the enemy area gives you a tool rush option. If you clicked the bronze upgrade button in the very low 12's you may find attacking with tool units during the transition to be very effective. A look at achievements and you MANDITORY scout should tell you what's going on, and make it clear if/where you want to offensively tower and whether to make clubbers/axers (you need axer upgrade anyhow) or use slingers. Surely, if he is not a CA civ, I'd use axers, since you'll need all the upgrades anyhow. VS a CA civ slingers will have plenty of value later, but you are hitting him when he is still tool, so I am not sure.
A very key point is that you have no forced need to tool him! It is just an option, but if things seem right, I have sometimes postponed bronzing, to flatten him w/ a tool rush.However, just killing a few guys and driving him off his gold/wood during his transition to bronze can really screw up some players.

The guy that towered your rax's now realizes that isn't effective. The summie w/camels wishes he could make cav w/+5 attck vs rax !

A very key point as you saw is the speed of creating new swordsmen which enables you to keep the pressure on !

Over the next couple of weeks I will be fine tuning this strat. and working on speeding my Rome bronze boom... neilkaz ..

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