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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » AoE I vs. AoE II units in RM and DM - who do you think would win?
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Topic Subject:AoE I vs. AoE II units in RM and DM - who do you think would win?
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Rennie Ash
Clubman
(id: JamikKim)
posted 07-04-11 03:05 AM ET (US)         
So, if an AoE I civ was able to play an AoE II civ in a random map or deathmatch, who do you think would win, given same player skill? - Also, consider if we allow the AoE I "buildings only take 1/5 damage" or whatever it uses for buildings...

I'm thinking AoE I moving units would kill AoK moving units more easily, but buildings would be a nightmare for AoE I units to kill, full damage or not.

ALso, it seems that AoE I units are slightly cheaper, but the resourcces on a map are less.
AuthorReplies:
Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 12-02-11 11:37 AM ET (US)     176 / 212       
One of the main reasons you will lose this fight is our strong counter-units. Another reason, like aoe vs aok, you will find it very difficult to deal with our far better defensive structures. You have stronger units than aok, but you will have a hard time taking out a castle fully garisoned, likewise with a fully garisoned fortress. All the half pop cost legions in the world wouldnt help you.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 12-04-11 05:59 PM ET (US)     177 / 212       
That is: if our units let AoK/AoM uberslow villies build their slow contructing time buildings...

And talking about taking castles, who needs legions when there are aromored elephants and decent siege units?

[This message has been edited by Suppiluliuma (edited 12-04-2011 @ 06:08 PM).]

Crossbowman
Imperator
posted 12-04-11 08:00 PM ET (US)     178 / 212       
Our siege weapons are our main advantages. And our priests. And the ease of rushing. And half population infantry.

Who was that Maud person anyway?
Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 12-05-11 09:18 AM ET (US)     179 / 212       
"That is: if our units let AoK/AoM uberslow villies build their slow contructing time buildings..."

AOM contructing time is anything but slow, its not even an arguement.

"And talking about taking castles, who needs legions when there are aromored elephants and decent siege units?"

Well, as i SAID, our defensive structures outrange your siege weapon, so feel free to sacrifive your siege weapons to get a couple of hits. Armored elephants are expensive as hell, we can just spam cheap counter units, problem solved.
Crossbowman
Imperator
posted 12-05-11 10:20 AM ET (US)     180 / 212       
What's the range of the best tower in aom (with and without upgrades)?

Who was that Maud person anyway?
PhatFish
Mr. Beta
posted 12-05-11 10:40 AM ET (US)     181 / 212       
And our priests.
Hell yeah, we'll simply wololo anything that gets thrown at us.



BSU_DoLhades
Clubman
posted 12-05-11 02:06 PM ET (US)     182 / 212       
Range of a tower on AoM is 20, same with Fortresses, palaces and midgol Strongholds, I believe Hill Forts are 18, but AoM ranges are longer than AoE, and I believe the only unit that would be longer ranged is the Trebuchet and Bombard cannon excluding AoM units.

AoM buildings do not increase in range from upgrades.

Leader and Trigger Artist of Mythic Studios
I need players for my Peloponnesian War RPG (Its Semi-Historical)
Now quit being a bitch and quote me in your signature like Yeebaagooon used to. ~Out Reach
Crossbowman
Imperator
posted 12-05-11 03:27 PM ET (US)     183 / 212       
But the tiles in AoM are much smaller than AoE tiles. This has to be taken into account.

Who was that Maud person anyway?
BSU_DoLhades
Clubman
posted 12-05-11 04:16 PM ET (US)     184 / 212       
They may be much smaller, but 1 Radius is not one tile, else the ranges would be alot shorter

Leader and Trigger Artist of Mythic Studios
I need players for my Peloponnesian War RPG (Its Semi-Historical)
Now quit being a bitch and quote me in your signature like Yeebaagooon used to. ~Out Reach
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 12-05-11 04:25 PM ET (US)     185 / 212       
Ahem, why do I sometimes feel that people don't read the walls of text I write :P
...except the range, seriously, the 22 ranged gastraphetes look like if they were at most 12 converted to AoE distance units I'd give long distance siege units 15 range at most..

Regarding range of units it is interesting because I think AoE III distance units are very similar to AoM's, the 12 ranged musketeers look to me like if they had 6 AoE ranges.
Yes i noticed that if in AoE/AoK the ranges were in meters, in AoM/AoEIII they would be in feet (I'm serious about this). So range can't be taken as an argument when comparing pre- and post-AoM Ensemble Studios games.
If there were 30-ranged units in AoE their range won't fit in a single 1280x1024 screen.

Also AoM villies are slow compared to AoE (i was talking about relative build speed not the absolute one).

I'd love to see AoM units trying to counter the damage area Armored Elephants which besides cost just 1 population slot. And counter units are weak vs every other unit they are not specialized in countering. Bring the Katapeltes, Hoplites/spearmen/camels/prodromos. We would have one elephant for each unit you throw at us, and just to be sure, we could have the same amount of siege units/archers/centurions as a failsafe. No matter how weak they are, I've learned that underestimating numbers of even weak units is a terrible mistake.

Regarding AoK, I think trebuchets max range is 16, bombard cannons could be 15 (16?) for turkish ones.

[This message has been edited by Suppiluliuma (edited 12-05-2011 @ 04:29 PM).]

jordanthejq12
Clubman
posted 12-05-11 05:59 PM ET (US)     186 / 212       
Yes, and any smart player will have some sort of myth unit. I don't think those centuriond would fare well against a cyclops, medusa, minotaur...or a phoenix. You can't attack what you've never seen before.

"Preparation is not prevention. Just because you know what's coming does not mean you can stop it."
--Me

Something to remember: always know where you're going, but never forget where you came from.

The Age of Chivalry is upon us! Visit the only wiki devoted exclusively to Aoc:H by clicking on the preceding link. Oh yeah, and it works with the HD edition, too--just make sure to get this first.
dom0601
Clubman
posted 12-05-11 07:21 PM ET (US)     187 / 212       
I think trebuchets max range is 16
Max range is 17 (16+1). Huns are more accurate, Japan more faster trebs. Trebs, though need to be guarded, which isn't easy against MAX Teuton Castles (I believe they have over 12 Range)

P.S. MAX British Longbowmen have 12 Range, stronger than all but Teuton Max castles. That is crazy.

[This message has been edited by dom0601 (edited 12-05-2011 @ 07:24 PM).]

Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 12-05-11 08:18 PM ET (US)     188 / 212       
"Yes i noticed that if in AoE/AoK the ranges were in meters, in AoM/AoEIII they would be in feet (I'm serious about this). So range can't be taken as an argument when comparing pre- and post-AoM Ensemble Studios games.
If there were 30-ranged units in AoE their range won't fit in a single 1280x1024 screen."

Stop trying, aom have superior range, deal with it.


"I'd love to see AoM units trying to counter the damage area Armored Elephants which besides cost just 1 population slot. And counter units are weak vs every other unit they are not specialized in countering. Bring the Katapeltes, Hoplites/spearmen/camels/prodromos. We would have one elephant for each unit you throw at us, and just to be sure, we could have the same amount of siege units/archers/centurions as a failsafe. No matter how weak they are, I've learned that underestimating numbers of even weak units is a terrible mistake."

How are you going to have one elephant for each of our counter unit? Are you utterly insane? Armored war elephants are expensive as hell, you simply cant produce a elephant in the time we produce a counter unit. Especially considering aom villagers collect resources faster and more effectively. Siege units are bad counters for katapeltes, they are fairly quick for infantry, and counter siege as well. In fact, its cheaper to produce cyclops than armored elephants, and well...that is not going to look pretty for the elephants. And you keep ignoring the fanatic, which is a fantastic counter to cavalry and infantry, and it could give the centurion a run for its money.
Crossbowman
Imperator
posted 12-05-11 09:19 PM ET (US)     189 / 212       
In fact, its cheaper to produce cyclops than armored elephants, and well...that is not going to look pretty for the elephants. And you keep ignoring the fanatic, which is a fantastic counter to cavalry and infantry, and it could give the centurion a run for its money.
Aren't cyclopes and fanatics from different civilisations?

Who was that Maud person anyway?
Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 12-05-11 11:34 PM ET (US)     190 / 212       
"Aren't cyclopes and fanatics from different civilisations?"

And?
PhatFish
Mr. Beta
posted 12-06-11 01:37 AM ET (US)     191 / 212       
Keep things civil guys, this is a nice and interesting thread and I don't want to lock it.



Crossbowman
Imperator
posted 12-06-11 10:03 AM ET (US)     192 / 212       
And you can't create both at the same time.

Who was that Maud person anyway?
BSU_DoLhades
Clubman
posted 12-06-11 11:12 AM ET (US)     193 / 212       
You do realise Hoplites arent counter units right?

And we can in a team game

And Gastraphetes have 24 range, the highest I know of is 30 range.

Leader and Trigger Artist of Mythic Studios
I need players for my Peloponnesian War RPG (Its Semi-Historical)
Now quit being a bitch and quote me in your signature like Yeebaagooon used to. ~Out Reach
ephestion
Clubman
posted 12-07-11 05:33 AM ET (US)     194 / 212       
Yeah AOE stats may be lower but their units would pawn anything in AOK and AOE3. While those muskets are busy reloading the hoplites could reach them and decimate them. Which is why Shaka Zulu was so effective against late age muskets. Plus the AOE3 formations never utilised the true potential of armed warfare. In AOE and AOK the formations resulted in a massive defensive and offensive bonus in real terms. Like a volley of Archers into a tightly packed musket regiment and followed by either a cavalry charge on heavy armoured horses or a sprint from heavy armour clad hoplites would have cleaned up any AOE3 army.


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
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Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 12-07-11 05:24 PM ET (US)     195 / 212       
I give up. I feel like Darwin or Galileo. It is frustrating when people can't see the facts when they are in front of their eyes (such as the overestimation of AoM range measurement and the inherent weakness of counter units) and even worse when I feel I'm fighting a battle alone lol.

On my behalf I won't be visiting this thread anymore (you don't like it?: go and complain to my superiors, you're free to do so). I hope PhatFish stays here tho, as he's the person in charge now.
local boi
Clubman
(id: dragon14)
posted 12-08-11 03:03 AM ET (US)     196 / 212       
in an effort to continue the discussion, our heavy catapults have a huge damage and area when they hit. a hittite 300 hp, with 15 range, is scary. a bunch of those, like 10 or 12, should decimate virtually any normal unit in volleys of perhaps.. 4-6.
Your archers are strong but inaccurate; ours never miss.
and please remember, you can't ever, EVER, discount the effect of a weak attack. I've seen my dad stop 30-40 elephants in the goddamn tool age with bowmen and scout ships. he bronzed soon during the attack, lol.
attack is not everthing: numbers and good tactics can turn the tide against any powerful unit, as that shows.

USA
katsup or mustard
Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 12-08-11 07:46 AM ET (US)     197 / 212       
"in an effort to continue the discussion, our heavy catapults have a huge damage and area when they hit. a hittite 300 hp, with 15 range, is scary. a bunch of those, like 10 or 12, should decimate virtually any normal unit in volleys of perhaps.. 4-6.
Your archers are strong but inaccurate; ours never miss.
and please remember, you can't ever, EVER, discount the effect of a weak attack. I've seen my dad stop 30-40 elephants in the goddamn tool age with bowmen and scout ships. he bronzed soon during the attack, lol.
attack is not everthing: numbers and good tactics can turn the tide against any powerful unit, as that shows."

To be fair, your catapults arent your biggest threat, thats the ballista. The catapults are not really hard to avoid, ballistas on the other hand, are not. 10 ballistas are a real threat, catapults can be, but can also be easy destroyed by a couple of cavalry. Well of course you could stop 30 elephants with a bunch of archers, the elephants can never catch them, though it would take a rather long time to pull it of.
local boi
Clubman
(id: dragon14)
posted 12-08-11 08:10 PM ET (US)     198 / 212       
No, the catapults are the true threat. when you can knock out an entire army in one volley, you have a heavy cat.
it can knock out 20 guys at a time. definitely not a fun thing to fight against with infantry, be it ranged or melee
dude, it was a real ****ing battle. the dude sent his entire army to my dad, whih was across the shallows. and he totally demolished that army. it was ****ign awesome, your thinking too small.
my dad makes huge armies and huge navies. he also believes that its not good to kill enemy vils, as that means more space for enemy military units. and hey, when he kills eles in the tool age, in a game I woulda probably lost, theres no argument.
in real time, i believe the whole thing lasted only a couple minutes at most; so no, it does not take that long to do.
The moral to be learned from this is that bowmen and scout ships can kill elephants. if he'd brought catapults.. pff, why would he. he had a ele army, who expects it to die to scout ships and bowmen :P


also, question. does stars count as swears. it changed it to stars, should I change it or is the censor enougf.

USA
katsup or mustard

[This message has been edited by local boi (edited 12-08-2011 @ 08:32 PM).]

Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 12-09-11 08:28 AM ET (US)     199 / 212       
You CAN knock out a small army, if the opponent is not paying attention, using only slow units, or is stupid. Catapults are SO easy to dodge.Ballista is by far the better choice, if you are up against enemies with a bit of speed. For the second time, of course the Elephants lost to ranged units, they always does, they are way to slow to catch up with them, end of story.

[This message has been edited by Aoe_1337 (edited 12-09-2011 @ 08:32 AM).]

local boi
Clubman
(id: dragon14)
posted 12-10-11 02:55 PM ET (US)     200 / 212       
... you take it alll the wrong way
Ima give you a scenario so you can't mistake what I'm saying
Scenario: Hittite 12 heay cats, 20 bowmen and 20 war galleys defended by a Centurion army of about 30
vs aom army
you recognize heavy cats can wreck a small army, a big army is just several smaller armies. you see what I'm saying?
and moving units..
Ballistics is MEAN, the area that gets hit is mean, typically your units will take huge damage anyway :/
Archers are good for picking off units one by one.. oh/. yeah,i remeber how my dad killed those eles. he always groups his units and targets one at a time, must be how he won .. in the tool age.
lol
also in AOE, one of the strongest units is imo the war galley. espeially the Hittite one, it just offers great range and a respectable damage on coastlines and shallows and a ways inland, as well as being hard to kill on water.

eles don't always lose to ranged units. maybe im skewed because I always use persians when i go eles? fun times

USA
katsup or mustard

[This message has been edited by local boi (edited 12-10-2011 @ 03:01 PM).]

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