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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » AoE I vs. AoE II units in RM and DM - who do you think would win?
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Topic Subject:AoE I vs. AoE II units in RM and DM - who do you think would win?
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Rennie Ash
Clubman
(id: JamikKim)
posted 07-04-11 03:05 AM ET (US)         
So, if an AoE I civ was able to play an AoE II civ in a random map or deathmatch, who do you think would win, given same player skill? - Also, consider if we allow the AoE I "buildings only take 1/5 damage" or whatever it uses for buildings...

I'm thinking AoE I moving units would kill AoK moving units more easily, but buildings would be a nightmare for AoE I units to kill, full damage or not.

ALso, it seems that AoE I units are slightly cheaper, but the resourcces on a map are less.
AuthorReplies:
jordanthejq12
Clubman
posted 11-19-11 02:43 PM ET (US)     151 / 212       
This AOM talk is interesting. But how would they hold up against AOEIII units? Maybe it's not a fair comparison, but even AOEIII pikes and crossbows pwn their equivalents. (It'd be quite funny to see the mighty centurions felled by a volley of muskets.)

"Preparation is not prevention. Just because you know what's coming does not mean you can stop it."
--Me

Something to remember: always know where you're going, but never forget where you came from.

The Age of Chivalry is upon us! Visit the only wiki devoted exclusively to Aoc:H by clicking on the preceding link. Oh yeah, and it works with the HD edition, too--just make sure to get this first.
Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 11-19-11 10:31 PM ET (US)     152 / 212       
"(It'd be quite funny to see the mighty centurions felled by a volley of muskets.)"

Not a big accomplishment, as any archer have little trouble dealing with them.
BSU_DoLhades
Clubman
posted 11-20-11 04:53 PM ET (US)     153 / 212       
Yes, although AoE3 stats I believe come up slightly higher, however they would have trouble with the myths of AoM.

Leader and Trigger Artist of Mythic Studios
I need players for my Peloponnesian War RPG (Its Semi-Historical)
Now quit being a bitch and quote me in your signature like Yeebaagooon used to. ~Out Reach
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 11-20-11 05:12 PM ET (US)     154 / 212       
I don't think they would have trouble, Imperial Gardeners (Hussars from the Ottomans, a backbone cavalry unit have over 800 HPs and 63 attack points) they don't cost favor and take less population slots. C'mon admit it: if human soldiers can kill myth units so can the normal units of any other ES game.
Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 11-21-11 12:04 PM ET (US)     155 / 212       
Your super units from aoe3 might do it, but i dont think normal units from ANY ES game could deal with them. I have a Colossus with 1500 hp and 20-25 hack damage yo, aoe1/aoe2 units would be crushed.

What i meant was collossus, gold colossus have 1500 hp.

[This message has been edited by Aoe_1337 (edited 11-23-2011 @ 11:49 PM).]

BSU_DoLhades
Clubman
posted 11-23-11 10:05 AM ET (US)     156 / 212       
Titan is even higher.

7000 HP, 70 crush and 20 hack.

Leader and Trigger Artist of Mythic Studios
I need players for my Peloponnesian War RPG (Its Semi-Historical)
Now quit being a bitch and quote me in your signature like Yeebaagooon used to. ~Out Reach
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 11-23-11 11:52 AM ET (US)     157 / 212       
there are no 'super' units in AoE3, just normal units. I will never get tired of saying this: Sure a Titan is a pain in the butt is well used, however i've seen how huge amounts of normal units can deal with Titans, and if AoM normal units can defeat a Titan, AoE units could do it, however i have to admit that having armor values in plain numbers instead of percentages could be a quite big issue, but for that we can hit and run: titans are slooooow.
Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 11-23-11 07:06 PM ET (US)     158 / 212       
"there are no 'super' units in AoE3, just normal units. I will never get tired of saying this: Sure a Titan is a pain in the butt is well used, however i've seen how huge amounts of normal units can deal with Titans, and if AoM normal units can defeat a Titan, AoE units could do it, however i have to admit that having armor values in plain numbers instead of percentages could be a quite big issue, but for that we can hit and run: titans are slooooow. "

Well, back your Titan up by an army, have to Titan focus on the buildnings, thats alot more effective. A big enough army can deal with it, but if you bring an army with you to back it up, thats not easy to deal with. Heck, its not easy to defeat it by itself. AOE 1/2 units are generally alot weaker than aom units, so that would make it even harder.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 11-25-11 01:21 PM ET (US)     159 / 212       
AOE 1/2 units are generally alot weaker than aom units
based on what? attach? hitpoints? the stats say otherwise. The main advantage od AoM units as opposed to AoE/AoK is that the former have defenses in percentages, while the latter don't. But let's see the attcks Champion Ulfsarks have only 15 attack points and like 130 hps. Champion Hippikons or Contarii are not bad but their poor hack armor makes them vulnerable. I wonder how many would an AoE Centurion kill before he is defeated (I think 6-7 at least)
BSU_DoLhades
Clubman
posted 11-25-11 06:27 PM ET (US)     160 / 212       
A centurian would fall short to a Hypaspist (Something of 60% Hack)

Leader and Trigger Artist of Mythic Studios
I need players for my Peloponnesian War RPG (Its Semi-Historical)
Now quit being a bitch and quote me in your signature like Yeebaagooon used to. ~Out Reach
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 11-27-11 11:55 AM ET (US)     161 / 212       
I really doubt it: 60% of 37 must be like 22, so a Centurion still has at least 15 points of attack, that almost doubles a fully researched champion hypaspist (I think they have like 8 points of hack damage). Also the Centurions can have up to 14 points of armor and 160 hps. If the math works, the hypaspist alone has no chance.
Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 11-28-11 06:43 AM ET (US)     162 / 212       
"based on what? attach? hitpoints? the stats say otherwise. The main advantage od AoM units as opposed to AoE/AoK is that the former have defenses in percentages, while the latter don't. But let's see the attcks Champion Ulfsarks have only 15 attack points and like 130 hps. Champion Hippikons or Contarii are not bad but their poor hack armor makes them vulnerable. I wonder how many would an AoE Centurion kill before he is defeated (I think 6-7 at least) "

The stats say the AOM units are supperior, one uber unit doesnt change that. Besides, centurions would be owned by archers, seeing as they are as slow as elephants.Its funny how you put the allmighty centurion up against units that isnt suited to fight it, such bias. My legendary jarl have around 350 hitpoint, 15 hack attack and better armor than hippikons, i would say it could give the centurion a run for its money. Sufficive to say, the jarl would beat any cavalry in aoe1/aoe2, elephants not included. Im not so sure if a centurion beats a fanatic either. Either way you look at it, aom units have supperior stats.Indeed, the centurion is the migthiest unit in aoe1. But give me one other unit that could stand up the the aom military?

Fanatic stats unupgraded :

120 hitpoints
40 hack armor
25 pierce armor
10 hack damage 2x vs cavalry and infantry
speed: 4.3

This is a close one.

[This message has been edited by Aoe_1337 (edited 11-28-2011 @ 07:14 AM).]

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 11-28-11 09:56 AM ET (US)     163 / 212       
Jarls are meh: cost to much population and resources and their attack is mediocre, just like a normal fully researched cavalry init in AoE, meager 15 attack points won't do much of damage agains't fully armored units wich close to 10 armor points.

I mention the Centurions because they are ridiculous but any 'ultimate' unit has nice attack and defense:Cataphracts, Legions, Armored Elephants, Scythe Chariots, Juggernaughts. what other advantages we have?. Every unit costs just one or 0.5 population slot, we can build town centers anywhere we want, our missile units rarely miss a target, the elephants have damage area. And I still think that the range of the units in AoM is overestimated, 22 of range there looks like 8 of range of AoE to me.
Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 11-28-11 11:00 AM ET (US)     164 / 212       
"Jarls are meh: cost to much population and resources and their attack is mediocre, just like a normal fully researched cavalry init in AoE, meager 15 attack points won't do much of damage agains't fully armored units wich close to 10 armor points."

Meh units with some 340-370 hp(dont remember exactly), i can live with that.

"I mention the Centurions because they are ridiculous but any 'ultimate' unit has nice attack and defense:Cataphracts, Legions, Armored Elephants, Scythe Chariots, Juggernaughts. what other advantages we have?. Every unit costs just one or 0.5 population slot, we can build town centers anywhere we want, our missile units rarely miss a target, the elephants have damage area. And I still think that the range of the units in AoM is overestimated, 22 of range there looks like 8 of range of AoE to me. "

Sorry, no ultimate unit comes close to the centurion in aoe, not even the armored war elephant. They are the ultimate melee units, werent they so slow, they would be broken as hell. Those other ultimate units are mediocre in comparison with aom units.And btw, only the infantry count as 0.5, nothing else. Even if you think the range is overestimated, it isnt, our archer have more range than your siege weapons.
Jarl > Cataphract
Pretty much anything > legion
Tooth war elephant >>>> armored elephant
Kraken > anything in the aoe navy
fanatic vs centurion = ??
Tooth war elephant > centurion

[This message has been edited by Aoe_1337 (edited 11-28-2011 @ 11:04 AM).]

PhatFish
Mr. Beta
posted 11-28-11 04:31 PM ET (US)     165 / 212       
HHA's pwn every unit if well micro'ed.



jordanthejq12
Clubman
posted 11-28-11 05:30 PM ET (US)     166 / 212       
I suppose this thread might be better described as "Which game in the Age series has the best troops?" And to respond to PhatFish, HHA's will do quite nicely against most units--but not ranged cavalry in AOEIII, which, regardless of how you translate AOEIII figures into AOE/AOK/AOM numbers, have a bonus against cavalry.

"Preparation is not prevention. Just because you know what's coming does not mean you can stop it."
--Me

Something to remember: always know where you're going, but never forget where you came from.

The Age of Chivalry is upon us! Visit the only wiki devoted exclusively to Aoc:H by clicking on the preceding link. Oh yeah, and it works with the HD edition, too--just make sure to get this first.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 11-28-11 08:10 PM ET (US)     167 / 212       
Toth war elephants are nice but the lack of area damage makes them weaker than even the disappointing AoK's Persian elephants, and besides 5 population slots for that, i would think it twice before fielding an army of those (I did in the past and i regretted it). Also you're considering the elephants (Toth vs AoE) on one to one (as is the only circumstance were centurions would beat elephans) in groups (even AoE Centurions have no chance) the history would be different. Odin Jarls have 370 points and just 15 of attack, War elephants have the same attack have at least 600 Hps, cost 1 population slot and have area of damage.

I see Armored Elephants stronger than AoK's Persian elite elephants: mostly because eevn though Persian Elephants have area of damage, this area is either smaller or has a downgraded attack, and no matter how you put it, even the AoK's unit would beat AoM's Champion War Elephants.

AoE's Cavalry has a bonus attack vs Infantry, how would the U-150 Hp AoM infantry deal with that? after all AoE's armor rationg isn't a percentage, but it can easily stop 45+ % of AoM's infantry Attack (and that is you have basic cavalry, the percentage goes up if you research H.Cavalry or Cataphracts). Even if infantry had 60% hack armor cataphracts would cause 8 damage, no bonus counted, count the bonus and we have 16.
Pretty much anything > legion
I disagree, legions are the reason why Choson and Roman are so hard to beat in human vs human games, they are incredibly cheap (30 food 15 gold, a bargain in any game) and train incredibly fast. True the other civilization's legions are weaker, but still is hard to ignore each one costing 0.5 population slots.

Too bad we can't test the matches Aoe_1337 posted, mostly because the stats of AoM differ significantly from those in the previous games (and that's why comparing AoE and AoK is easy, but either to AoM is hard). I have to say that even though not as popular as the previous AoE or AoK, AoM is very equilibrated. AoE will always look broken to me mostly because there are civilizations like the Hittites on one end and Macedonian on the other.
Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 11-28-11 09:53 PM ET (US)     168 / 212       
"Toth war elephants are nice but the lack of area damage makes them weaker than even the disappointing AoK's Persian elephants"

Nope, even if they lack area damage, they are still better. In AOM, elephants actually benefits from armory upgrades. Fully upgraded toth war elephant is ridiculously strong, 25 attack, 700-800 hp, much better armor. They would crush any single unit from aoe/aoe2, no doubt.

"and no matter how you put it, even the AoK's unit would beat AoM's Champion War Elephants."

As i said, toth elephant is so much stronger, it win easy. If i remember correctly, aok elephants do benefit from blacksmith, that would make the armored elephnt the weakest.

"AoE's Cavalry has a bonus attack vs Infantry, how would the U-150 Hp AoM infantry deal with that? after all AoE's armor rationg isn't a percentage, but it can easily stop 45+ % of AoM's infantry Attack (and that is you have basic cavalry, the percentage goes up if you research H.Cavalry or Cataphracts). Even if infantry had 60% hack armor cataphracts would cause 8 damage, no bonus counted, count the bonus and we have 16."

Count the bonus and you have 13 damage, hardly anything revolutionary. Katapeltes would still own pretty much every cavalry in the game, they are cheap, and ridiculously strong for a counter unit. Anyway, Jarl beats any cavalry in aoe/oe2, camels and the greek counter cavalry also work nice, its of little concern. Ulfsark with the proper minor god upgrade will be a cheap and massable counter to cavalry, same goes for spearman. Anyway, would you really spend 2000 food and 850 hold for that upgrade? This is perhaps the worst upgrade in the game, cost wise.

I just dont see how you can think the aoe units would beat AOM units, its just not going to happen. We have 350 hp cavalry tanks, archers outranging siege weapons, powerful myth units. Every single "super unit" is beaten and outclassed, exept maybe centurion, but even that is debatable.

It doesnt matter if you are not impressed with the jarl, it still beat the cataphract. Almost twice as much hp, cataphract deals a few point more damage, but its still not anywhere close.

"and that's why comparing AoE and AoK is easy, but either to AoM is hard"

Aok have the weakest units out of the aoe/aom series, no doubt about that.

[This message has been edited by Aoe_1337 (edited 11-29-2011 @ 00:47 AM).]

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 11-30-11 03:03 PM ET (US)     169 / 212       
25 attack, for Toth elephants? how? the most I get playing Set and Toth is 22 attack points for champion elephants (that is fully upgraded smithy, and tusks of Apedemak) I don't remember if Isis' are stronger.

Now how many Hp's have the champion katapeltes? How much hack armor? Most conter units have rather low stats. You sure provide some information but to make comparisons more objective we need stats regarding this unit.

Now that we're talking one on one, Odin fully upgraded Jarls I admit they are not bad, regarding their HPs, but each of those 'tanks' would have to hit 160 times a fully upgraded centurion to kill it. A centurion would deal with them in 20 hits, at most.

But that's all one on one, maybe AoM units have a chance, but still who would attack one on one on a RTS game?. I think it isn't wise to underestimate the power of the numbers and the damage areas of some units: just as a Centurion can beat an armored elephant one on one because his atatck and defense stats are ridiculous, when we talk about group, centurions have no chance against the seemingly inferior unit. Even if you were right about everything you said (except the range, seriously, the 22 ranged gastraphetes look like if they were at most 12 converted to AoE distance units I'd give long distance siege units 15 range at most), how big can be an army in AoM? the top population limit is 300, and military units cost at least 2 population slots, and that's infantry and foot archers (so a top army of 150 units vs a minimum of 200 and a top of 400 for AoE). People always talk a lot about myth units but those are costly population wise, also except if they have been storing units, the favor greatly reduces the amount of myth units a player can have on the battlefield at a given time.

Now if the ranges in AoM were in equivalent units to AoE/AoK, certainly, hands down, no AoE/AoK units would have a chance. But if (as I suspect) the range units are inflated x2, then they would better pack and get back home. as they are quite innacurate and slow firing

Regarding range of units it is interesting because I think AoE III distance units are very similar to AoM's, the 12 ranged musketeers look to me like if they had 6 AoE ranges.
Now if unit HPs were as important as Aoe_1337 mentions, then there's no chance again's AoEIII's units with those 1000+ hp 50 attack from Imperial Cuirassiers, those 1300+ hp 100+ atatck Men o' War. (And the ridiculous bonus some units have like the anti cavalry halberdier stats).

Of course with the little support i am getting from fellow AoE fans here maybe I could be wrong.

[This message has been edited by Suppiluliuma (edited 11-30-2011 @ 03:13 PM).]

Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 11-30-11 04:57 PM ET (US)     170 / 212       
Katapeltes have 115 hp and 35 hack armor at base, fully upgraded katapeltes would have 160-170 hp, 50-60 hack armor, 8 damage, 3x damage vs cavalry, 2.5x vs siege. So they deal 26 damage to cavalry, if they had no armor. Given those stats, it can hold its ground against other units, and utterly destroy cavalry. How is that for a counter unit?


160? LOL no. They wouldnt deal 1 damage each hit, rofl.
Anyway, fanatics would be a good match for them, and they even have bonus damage against cavalry. 400 population? Rofl. Thats not what the game was made like, aok have 200, aoe have 50, lets say 100 just to be nice.

I could also find some mod that would increase the top population for AOM if i wanted to. Myth units are well worth the population cost, most of the times, unless you facing heroes/jarls. Gold Colossus is a 1500 hp tank that destroy buildnings for fun, can most certainly kill most units in the game population wise. Cyclops have insta kill, crush buildnings, hit hard, Medusa have insta kill etc.
Not always worth the pop cost, but can they be? Hell yes.
Also, we have ranged flyers, anything that doesnt have a range attack stands no chance.Lets how an army of cataphracts/centurions/elephants deals with that, they cant even touch them.

[This message has been edited by Aoe_1337 (edited 11-30-2011 @ 05:24 PM).]

BSU_DoLhades
Clubman
posted 12-01-11 01:01 PM ET (US)     171 / 212       
Just to say.

You guys forget AoM has a very powerful counter unit system, and you need to take that into heavey consideration, a fully upgraded Hypaspist would easily beat a Centurian due to its bonuses and armour.

Leader and Trigger Artist of Mythic Studios
I need players for my Peloponnesian War RPG (Its Semi-Historical)
Now quit being a bitch and quote me in your signature like Yeebaagooon used to. ~Out Reach
Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 12-02-11 07:59 AM ET (US)     172 / 212       
Sorry, a fully upgraded Hypasist couldnt beat a centurion, for that, the Centurion is to strong. Besides, hypasist have 4x vs infantry, with 8 hack attack(fully upgraded), it would mean 32 hack attack before counting the armor. A fanatic is a better match for the centurion, 30-40 more hp than a hypasist, better armor, only 2x vs infantry, but have 17 hack attack fully upgraded.

[This message has been edited by Aoe_1337 (edited 12-02-2011 @ 08:19 AM).]

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 12-02-11 08:30 AM ET (US)     173 / 212       
160? LOL no. They wouldnt deal 1 damage each hit, rofl.

Yes they would, Jarl maximum attack is 15, right? and centurions have 14 units of hack armor. 15-14= 1, I'm not joking, no reason to laugh.
400 population? Rofl. Thats not what the game was made like, aok have 200, aoe have 50, lets say 100 just to be nice.


Not Really, RoR (which is nothing more but the expansion of AoE) has 200 population limit in multiplayer, no mods, so if we count the 0.5 pop cost for infantry and what you get? :P Again, I am not joking.
I could also find some mod that would increase the top population for AOM if i wanted to.
So we could, to number up to the thousands of units, literally. We have the mod in the granary to do so as you may know.
Myth units are well worth the population cost, most of the times, unless you facing heroes/jarls. Gold Colossus is a 1500 hp tank that destroy buildnings for fun, can most certainly kill most units in the game population wise. Cyclops have insta kill, crush buildnings, hit hard, Medusa have insta kill etc.
I prefer the mummy, not only they kill units but converts them to useful minions.
Also, we have ranged flyers, anything that doesnt have a range attack stands no chance.
No worries. We have a plenthora of ranged units including siege that has decent atatch, fires pretty fast and rarely misses a target

Also talking defenses: We can build as many buildings as we want, including towers while in AoM every building has a build limit and that limit is pretty evident concerning towers and fortress kind of buildings. Now, how's that?
Aoe_1337
Clubman
posted 12-02-11 08:35 AM ET (US)     174 / 212       
"Also talking defenses: We can build as many buildings as we want, including towers while in AoM every building has a build limit and that limit is pretty evident concerning towers and fortress kind of buildings. Now, how's that? "

Your defenses are patethic anyway. You cant build fortress/castles, you cant garrison units for extra damage and protection, your walls are weak and doesnt have gates. Your town centers deals 0 damage. The only defensive structure you have that is any good, is ballista tower. Besides, its not like our 30 range sieges have any trouble taking them out.

[This message has been edited by Aoe_1337 (edited 12-02-2011 @ 08:41 AM).]

PhatFish
Mr. Beta
posted 12-02-11 10:25 AM ET (US)     175 / 212       
I never liked ballista towers much, their arrows are pretty easy to dodge.

I don't think you'll be able to break through a Babylonian wall that easy btw.



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