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Topic Subject:Age of Empires: The Rise or Rome RasPatch
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Rasteve
Clubman
posted 08-05-09 08:50 PM ET (US)         
UPDATED 11 NOVEMEBER

v0.5 is now complete and available via the granary.

DOWNLOAD HERE

Feel free to email if you have any questions. My email address is rasteveBBBatBBBtalkBBB21BBBdotBBBcom (remove the BBB's).

v0.5
Enhancements

- Single player games now have 200 population limits as default
- Civilisation unique bonuses improved to strengthen weaknesses
- Super units have unique abilities
- Iron age market technologies have special bonuses
- Ships and buildings are prone to fire damage
- Shield upgrades apply to all units with a shield
- Gaia buildings have the Roman tileset
- Installation does not overwrite original game files

Balance Changes
- Cataphracts have double LOS (super ability)
- Legions train 6 seconds faster (super ability)
- Centurions have 1 range (super ability)
- Gold mines have +200 gold
- Stone mines have +50 stone
- Foot archers have 90% accuracy (previously 100%)
- Mounted archers have 80% accuracy (previously 100%)
- Clubmen, axemen and short swordsmen no longer affected by shield technologies
- Scythe chariot, heavy cavalry and cataphracts affected by shield technologies
- Broad, long, legion, hoplites, phalanx, centies and scythes start with 1 pierce
- Heavy horse archers speed increased to 2.6 (previously 2.5)
- Fire galley deals 12 fire damage (shield and armour cannot reduce damage)
- Fire galley deals +12 bonus vs ships and buildings (no change vs ships)
- Scouts have 12 LOS (no longer increased with each age advancement)
- Stone throwers, catapults and heavy catapults minimum range +1 (3)
- All farm technologies +150 food yield (previously +75)
- All wood technologies +25% woodcutter work rate (previously +0.2 work/sec)
- All stone technologies +40% stone miner work rate (previously +0.3 work/sec)
- All gold technologies +40% gold miner work rate (previously +0.3 work/sec +25% coinage)
- All gold technologies +2 gold carriage (previously +3)
- Coinage increases gold mine yield (amount of gold) by 40% (previously 25%)
- Craftsmanship increases arrow and missile speed by 20%
- Irrigation reduces farm cost by 50%
- Jihad +20% villager speed (previously +0.3 speed)
- Alchemy gives additional +1 bonus vs ships and buildings (including previous effects)
- Assyrian cavalry, heavy cavalry and cataphracts have +2 pierce bonus
- Babylonian stone miners +50% work rate (previously 44%)
- Carthaginian fishing and trade ships have 30% speed increase (like transports)
- Choson short, broad, long and legion have +60 hit points bonus
- Egyptian gold miners +50% work rate (previously 44%)
- Greek slingers have +1 pierce armor bonus
- Minoan improved bowmen also have +2 range and los (like compies)
- Persian hunters +70% work rate (previously 67%)
- Persian scout ship and war galley also have 50% fire rate increase (like triremes)
- Roman barracks units (club, axe, sling, sword) have 33% attack rate bonus
- Cheat units are no longer affected by technologies or civ bonuses
- Hero units are no longer affected by technologies or civ bonuses
- Text improved for technologies (popup help, status line etc)
- More help references added to Rise or Rome content (for future changes to help file)
- Buildings and units have been grouped differently

Bug Fixes
- Status box text size reduced ("200/200" no longer overlaps command buttons)
- Removed redudant technologies string references (alpha/beta strings no longer required)
- Hero12 is now named Hero Pericles
- Elephant king attack animation now shows correctly
- All trees contain the wood that is displayed in the status box
- Assyrian villager speed bonus of 20% (previously 18%, not 30% as quoted in manual)
- Assyrian archers fire rate bonus of 40% (previously 27% for bowman, 36% for mounted)
- Assyrian placed elephant archers are affected by 40% fire rate bonus (scenario builder)
- Babylonian rejuvenation bonus of 30% (previously 27%)
- Babylonian placed war elephants no longer upgrade to armored eles in post-iron settings
- Carthaginian transport speed bonus of 30% (previously 25% for light, 43% for heavy)
- Carthaginian placed rafts are affected by 30% speed bonus (scenario builder)
- Choson priest cost reduction implemented as a subtraction rather than multiplication
- Choson post-iron barracks now train legions with the hp bonus
- Egyptian nobility yields +33% bonus +15% hp for chariots (previously dropped 1hp)
- Egyptian chariots hp the same whether nobility researched or iron/post-iron start
- Greek heavy infantry speed bonus of 30% (previously 33%)
- Greek warship speed bonus of 25% (previously 17% missile ships, 22% catapult ships)
- Hittite placed triremes are affected by +4 range/LOS bonus (scenario builder)
- Hittite placed impies no longer upgraded to composite bowmen in post-iron settings
- Hittite duplicated afterlife restriction removed
- Minoan post-iron archery range now trains composite bowmen with the range bonus
- Palmyran villagers work rate bonus of 50% (previously ranged between 33% and 50%)
- Palmyran repairman and builder work rate bonus of 50% (previously 0%)
- Palmyran farmers work rate bonus of 50% (previously 0%)
- Persian elephant speed bonus of 50% (previously 56%)
- Persian trireme rate of fire bonus of 50% (previously 39%)
- Persian placed hoplites no longer upgraded to centurions in post-iron settings
- Persian farms no longer benefit from irrigation in post-iron settings
- Phoenician catapult ship rate of fire bonus of 65% (previously 72%)
- Phoenician unknown restriction removed
- Roman swordsman attack rate bonus implemented as a multiplication
- Shang duplicated villager bonus removed
- Sumerian catapult class rate of fire bonus of 50% (previously 43%)
- Yamato villager speed bonus of 20% (previously 18%, not 30% as quoted in manual)
- Yamato ship bonus of 30% (rounded up, previously dropped 1hp and fb/fs at 33%)
- Yamato placed war elephants no longer upgrade to armored eles in post-iron settings
- Phalanx upgrade now adds 1 to researched technologies score within achievements
- Centurion upgrade now affects placed phalanx units (scenario builder)
- Long swordsman upgrade now affects placed broad swordsman units (scenario builder)
- Legion upgrade now affects placed broadies and long swordsman units (scenario builder)
- Trireme upgrade now affects placed war galley units (scenario builder)
- Added fire galley prerequisite text to galley upgrade
- Aristocracy now increases academy units speed by 25% (previously 28%, 21% Greek)
- Added centurion prerequisite text to aristocracy
- Nobility now increases hit points by 15% (rounded up, previously dropped 1hp)
- Added scythe chariot prerequisite text to nobility
- Added ballista tower prerequisite text to ballistics
- Added juggernaught prerequisite text to engineering
- Alchemy now adds the correct attack type to each unit
- Alchemy text now details actual benefits
- Wheel technology increases villager speed by 60% (previously 64%, 54% Assy/Yammy)
- Artisanship now increases LOS for all archery range units (previously omitted mounted)
- Added correct technology effects text to all market technologies
- Catapult upgrade text now follows standard convention
- Heavy catapult upgrade now affects placed catapult units (scenario builder)
- Fixed more help reference for catapult (previously pointed to heavy catapult)
- Cataphract upgrade now affects placed heavy cavalry units (scenario builder)
- Armor text has been changed to make effects clearer
- Added heavy horse archer prerequisite text to chain mail for archers technology
- Added cataphract prerequisite text to metallurgy technology
- Storage pit attack technologies have been altered to remove legacy elephant affects
- Shield text has been changed to make effects clearer
- Armored elephant prerequisite text added to iron shield technology
- Changed the way astrology effect is applied
- Changed astrology research text to include affects on healing rate
- Fanaticism increases rejuvenation rate by 50% or 40% babylon (previously 43% or 34%)
- Legion prerequisite text added to fanaticism technology
- Added babylonian rejuvenation rate change text to fanaticism technology
- Changed medicine research text to declare actual benefit
- Added building exclusions to monotheism research text
- Changed jihad technology text to indicate actual affects
- Changed martyrdom technology text to include enemy priest exclusion
- Guard tower uppgrade now affects placed sentry towers (scenario builder)
- Ballista tower upgrade now affects placed sentry and guard towers (scenario builder)
- Removed duplicated archery range upgrade for iron age advance
- Removed duplicated technology effect from medicine technology
- General reinforcement of technology prerequisites

Test Packs
- DM Test Pack: Includes Choson, Persian and Egyptian DM games (2 maps for each) - 1v1 Iron Hillz (large) setting
- DM Test Pack Unstable: Same as above but the AI scripts are very prone to crashing on my machine.
- RM Test Pack: Assyrian RM game (2 maps) - 1v1 Stone Hillz (large) HARDEST (starting resources boost) setting

Dat Change Count
v0.1: 446 dat changes
v0.2: 602 dat changes
v0.3: 313 dat changes
v0.4: 2401 dat changes
v0.5: 1001 dat changes

Total Changes
4763 dat changes
298 dll changes
4 AI replacements
5 PER changes
15 other changes

v0.6 Proposal
This version will concentrate on the units, and will include such fixes as enabling units in the editor, placeable gaia units near edge of map, text updates etc.

I will also make the following changes to heroes:
  • All ranged heroes will automatically have alchemy and ballistics
  • All heroes will have increased attributes (as techs no longer affect them)
  • Villager heroes will no longer change to villagers when tasked

    Further balance changes:
  • Archers fire 100% accurate: More units get shields now
  • Stone: Mines have 350 stone (+100 on original, +50 on last update)
  • Egypt: Gets 40% coinage-like bonus to replace current gold bonus
  • Palmyran: villagers have 40% work rate
  • Shang: ballista/helepolis missiles travel 20% faster
  • Persian: barracks units cost 20% less
  • Babylonian: priests get 30% conversion+healing bonus instead of rejuvenation rate bonus
  • Phoenician: 20% work rate woodies
  • Sumerian: academy units cost 20% less
  • Hittite: siege gets 50% hp bonus and not 100%, missile and siege ships have +2 range bonus (not +4 for missiles ships)

    Wishlist
  • Siege can be repaired by villies
  • Trade involves more resources


    Please let me know any problems, suggestions or general feedback.

    Just in case you were wondering, this patch builds upon the RoR v1.0a US Language version.

    [This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 11-30-2009 @ 10:26 PM).]

  • AuthorReplies:
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-10-09 02:30 PM ET (US)     176 / 269       
    It's good idea, but maybe Farms could cost 50 instead(33%) or Romans could have bigger bonus to reduce building 20%. It's 5% more.
    I was considering free farms, as the old farm bug didnt really affect the outcome of games (or so it was reported). But with free farms you could potentially have games dragging on when they should be over (such as having the ability to flood with axemen and scouts!).

    I don't think Romans need a change on this, and it is good that they dont get irrigation (otherwise they would have a double farm cost bonus).
    First bonus is good for Eles, Cavalry , Eles Archers and HHa.
    Second is good for Siege, Ships and Chariots.
    Could you explain - I am a bit confused.

    The craftsmanship won't affect slingers, stone throwers, catapults, heavy catapults, catapult triremes and juggernaughts. It will affect ballista, helepolis, archery range units, towers, scout ships, war galleys and triremes.

    Irrigation will help micro in RM and DM (probably more in RM, as you can free up wood requirements). DM it will be useful.
    Persian would not be on bad side. From farms will be more food, but they could have more techs from market.
    Persians are not that bad in RM, I play with them quite a lot. You have a good stable, so the old school cav rush is viable. Just dont get into an archer war! In DM they are good, but better as a team player.

    In the raspatch scout ships and war galleys also get the fire rate bonus so the navy should be quite good, offsetting the lack of market techs slightly.

    I think I have just fixed the palmyran farmer bug. Will test again shortly - I think this will be my last change before release
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-10-09 02:32 PM ET (US)     177 / 269       
    Here is a better description of craftsmanship -

    It will make missiles faster - this is different from rate of fire. The rate of fire will remain for each unit, but the actual missile will travel 20% faster. This will make dodging harder, as the missile will be coming a bit faster. All those previous near-misses will be hits!
    Aran
    Clubman
    posted 11-10-09 03:08 PM ET (US)     178 / 269       
    My bad. I was saying everything about Irrigation

    1) farmers carry double food (20, although this will 12 with jihad tech, which should help with farm micro in DM games). Good for food units as like stable units(camels, eles, cavarly), Eles archers and HHA.

    2)half price farms. Good for wood units as like ships, siege, chariots, archers. Meanwhile It will be more wood for food

    Craftmanships is godie

    [This message has been edited by Aran (edited 11-10-2009 @ 03:10 PM).]

    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-10-09 03:29 PM ET (US)     179 / 269       
    Ok I understand. Sorry I wasn't sure which post you were refering to

    I have to say, I will release v0.5 with irrigation having half price farms and not the double villager food carriage. I wanted to have food carriage techs in AoH anyway.
    Aran
    Clubman
    posted 11-10-09 04:56 PM ET (US)     180 / 269       
    I'm sorry. I'm very sleepy and I don't know what I'm writing

    About Craftmanship:
    Helios shouldn't be affected by Craftmanship bonus. They shoot enough fast, but Balistas they could have rate 4 secoods.
    ( They shooting 5 seconds now. Do I remember well?). It will like Balistas have this bonus, but they don't.

    Another good message about food.
    Suppiluliuma
    AoEH Seraph
    posted 11-10-09 05:02 PM ET (US)     181 / 269       
    It will make missiles faster - this is different from rate of fire. The rate of fire will remain for each unit, but the actual missile will travel 20% faster. This will make dodging harder, as the missile will be coming a bit faster. All those previous near-misses will be hits!
    Well dodging arrows was almost impossible before if one was facing archers with ballistics and even more so if they were groups of archers. However i guess it would be more difficult to dodge solitary helepolii.

    Aran just to make it clear you're confusing fire rate with the missile speed. That is the ballista bolt can travel 20% faster but that doesn't mean the abllistae fire rate is increased.
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-10-09 05:03 PM ET (US)     182 / 269       
    Okay, ranged units have 2 properties:

    RELOAD TIME - time between each attack
    MISSILE SPEED - how fast the missile travels

    The reload time (= 1/rate of fire) will not change. Helepolis will still fire bolts every x seconds with or without craftsmanship.

    But the bolt will travel faster. In the game with or without ballistics it is possible to dodge arrows etc by changing directions quickly. But if the missile is moving a bit faster it will be less likely to dodge the missile.
    Well dodging arrows was almost impossible before if one was facing archers with ballistics and even more so if they were groups of archers. However i guess it would be more difficult to dodge solitary helepolii.
    But with greater ranges (horse archers etc) it is possible to get scouts and other units out of tricky spots. I was also thinking about scouts etc running into enemy towers.

    But yes, shorter ranged units are very hard to dodge with ballistics.

    Note that shang does not get ballistics

    [This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 11-10-2009 @ 05:06 PM).]

    Suppiluliuma
    AoEH Seraph
    posted 11-10-09 05:16 PM ET (US)     183 / 269       
    Yah poor Shang they could be decent if they had ballistics. Anyways so i thought it was okay for scouts to dodge missiles.
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-10-09 05:22 PM ET (US)     184 / 269       
    Craftsmanship will make this a bit harder - but not impossible. At greater distances the speed changed missile will still be avoidable.
    Aran
    Clubman
    posted 11-10-09 05:28 PM ET (US)     185 / 269       
    I know why scythes have 4 piercing. Nothing else to say
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-10-09 06:47 PM ET (US)     186 / 269       
    Well, some uninteresting facts:

    Arrows move at 8 tiles/sec - 9.6 with craftsmanship
    Bolts at 4.5 tiles/sec - 5.4 with craftsmanship
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-10-09 08:15 PM ET (US)     187 / 269       
    v0.5 is ready!!!

    Okay, to explain a few changes:

    Iron age market technologies have special bonuses
    Siegecraft allows for villagers to take walls/towers down easily, coinage gives free gold but irrigation and craftsmanship do not give special bonuses - until now!

    Broad, long, legion, hoplites, phalanx, centies and scythes start with 1 pierce
    All units carrying a shield (in graphics) will start with pierce armour

    Heavy horse archers speed increased to 2.6 (previously 2.5)
    Heavy horse archers have been given a very small speed boost to help counter the new anti-archer measures introduced across the patch

    All gold technologies +2 gold carriage (previously +3)
    There is more gold in the game, so the ability to gather has been slightly hindered

    Craftsmanship increases arrow and missile speed by 20%
    Missiles are now marginally faster, making dodging towers etc slightly more difficult - this change ties into the decision to give all iron age market techs a unique bonus

    Irrigation reduces farm cost by 50%
    Again, this ties into the decision to give all iron age market techs a unique bonus, and should help with micro

    Assyrian cavalry, heavy cavalry and cataphracts have +2 pierce bonus
    This is to boost Assyrians in late RM games and general DM strat

    Roman barracks units (club, axe, sling, sword) have 33% attack rate bonus
    Mainly to help Romans during bronze age vs archers (slingers are more effective, plus shield upgrades for broadies should help)

    Text improved for technologies (popup help, status line etc)
    A complete overhaul of the technologies in-game text has been conducted to hopefully indicate the actual benefits of each tech

    Buildings and units have been grouped differently
    All units/buildings belong to groups (known as classes in the RoRd editor). I have created new classes which will be used at a later point to make units more intelligent. For example, in a future update camels will prioritise on killing cavalry etc. The groupings have also helped prepare for the next version of Age of Heroes (as new units will be introduced, and minimal effort will now be required to get certain techs to apply to new units)

    Bug Fixes
    A number of additional bug fixes have been performed, which should explain themselves.

    If you check the version log within patch.txt you will see why this release took so long (but the extra work will make AoH easier to release now!).
    Vemarkis
    Clubman
    posted 11-12-09 09:24 AM ET (US)     188 / 269       
    I was wondering, how did you change the poplimit in single player to 200?
    Aran
    Clubman
    posted 11-12-09 11:02 AM ET (US)     189 / 269       
    Why Scouts cost more food done Cavarly. Cavarly have better armor and they must eat more Berry's. Scouts are lighter horses
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-12-09 11:11 AM ET (US)     190 / 269       
    Vemarkis - you can look up the RoR pop limit changer in the granary - lets you change the pop limit from 1 to 255.

    Aran - the key is scouts do not cost gold, and cavalry do. Plus scouts eat a lot, didn't you read the manual
    volume
    Clubman
    posted 11-12-09 11:25 AM ET (US)     191 / 269       
    a few inputs:

    about wood essentially being more expensive then gold

    * especially if you siege and build lots of buildings closer and closer to your enemy for booming

    * especially if it has water on the map (navy and fewer trees)

    let's compare cats (180 wood and 80 gold)

    chariots (40 food and 60 wood)

    legions (35 food and 15 gold)

    and then add navy (135 wood per warship 150 wood per transport)

    and dont forget rasteve want 600 gold per mine and 840 per coinage!

    which one is in fact cheaper and lasts in the long run?

    also i heard about the coinage thing for egypt. rasteve couldnt you just simply give egypt coinage? from what i read it had as a matter of fact in the game manual's history said that egypt had coinage especially when alexander was made pharaoh although the greeks introduced it by trade nevertheless it was an 'egyptian' history timeframe during it's empire time.

    and besides it would make sense to coincide with babylon's got everything about stone including siegecraft so egypt with about gold should also have everything about gold. you follow the logic rasteve? and besides rasteve likes gold and that is why he decides he wants 600 gold mines instead of 400 and coinage makes 40% extra gold instead of 25% ;p
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-12-09 12:02 PM ET (US)     192 / 269       
    But..

    how many trees compared to gold in any map?

    how spread out are forests compared to gold mine locations?

    I would put wood above food in terms of importance

    Also, it is not that I like gold but that the game was created for 50 pop limits, now we use 200 (RoR multiplayer has been like this since the beginning?).

    This changed the balance of the game (as any testing during development would have concentrated on 50 pops). With 200 pop limits, a couple of problems were created:

    - Massed archer units (e.g. chariot archers, which were quite weak in 50 pop limits are now very good in 200 pop games)

    - Siege (very very hard to stop 100 heavy cats!)

    And in terms of gold, it is harder to mass cavalry or other gold units due to availability of gold.

    With Egypt I was thinking more along the lines of giving them a bonus such as +x% gold miner work rate, +y gold carriage and +z% more gold per mine rather than their current bonus.

    Egypt will not be required to research coinage to get the extra gold, and get it from the stone age!
    Ninetails
    AoEH MMC Winner
    (id: TailSpray)
    posted 11-12-09 01:51 PM ET (US)     193 / 269       
    It always bothered me that Egypt was supposed to have this gold bonus, but then not get all techs for it and then not get the extra coinage gold, leaving them with less than the other civs!

    | The Slave Pits (4.8) MMC 1st Place | The Fate of Inraya Teaser (4.5) | The Parting Gift | Computer Wars Pack |
    "Never experienced any of his revolutionary scenarios, but dang if he isn't charismatic when he speaks!" -Aro
    Voted AoEH's Most Helpful Forumer 2009!

    Ninetails, of all the forumers you seen to have the inabillity to feel hate against your fellow man. A noble trait, treasure it. -Gumble
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-12-09 02:35 PM ET (US)     194 / 269       
    In truth, they don't need it - strictly a chariot civ in RM and DM. Compies and Ele Archers are substitutes, but chariot numbers are easier to maintain.

    But with even more gold they can switch from CA (in DM) to EA, plus some more priests to help heal/convert. Remember that Egypt strat is more defensive in DM (using towers, archers and scythes to run gold-dependant civs down). They have more gold (coinage + gold mines+200) - so maybe Egypt needs a little help facing longer attacks!
    Ninetails
    AoEH MMC Winner
    (id: TailSpray)
    posted 11-12-09 04:39 PM ET (US)     195 / 269       
    I've always been under the impression that Egypt had the best agriculture and tech of their time, yet their troops were only mediocre. They had some of the best agriculture and quarrying as well as commanding a good bit of trade.

    | The Slave Pits (4.8) MMC 1st Place | The Fate of Inraya Teaser (4.5) | The Parting Gift | Computer Wars Pack |
    "Never experienced any of his revolutionary scenarios, but dang if he isn't charismatic when he speaks!" -Aro
    Voted AoEH's Most Helpful Forumer 2009!

    Ninetails, of all the forumers you seen to have the inabillity to feel hate against your fellow man. A noble trait, treasure it. -Gumble
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-12-09 05:44 PM ET (US)     196 / 269       
    Yep, but whilst they developed their architecture and palaces, their army wasn't tested. Peoples such as the Macedonians, Romans, Assyrians and Persians were much more experienced with warfare, developing the necessary technology, tactics and siegecraft required to take Egypt apart

    By the end of the Bronze Age the Egyptians were pretty much finished as a power (the Bronze Age collapse had a massive effect on Egypt, with droughts devastating the population).

    Also note Egypts lack of wood. I am not talking about chariot building, but weapon production (i.e. wood as a fuel!).
    volume
    Clubman
    posted 11-13-09 01:19 AM ET (US)     197 / 269       
    But..

    how many trees compared to gold in any map?
    unfortunately not that many..even with the average gigantic hill map. lets take a 1vs1 hill map say has roughly 50 forests spread out and each forest has (lets make it generous even though it's incredibly far less) 2 gigantic terrain placements. each gigantic terrain placement has 81 trees and only forest trees are placed that way each tree with 40 wood so that means if you were to chop every tree on the map yourself you would obtain 324000 wood and should they be 75 wood trees (utmost tediously manually placed) then 607500 wood on the whole map and dont forget those figures are exaggerated to be more

    gold on the other hand has on average 10 gold depots..2 with 8 mines, 4 with 6 mines and 4 with 5 mines. at 600 gold per mine=36000 gold and coinage=50400 gold. these figures are exaggerated lower

    so at this point is roughly a ratio of 10% gold to trees

    take a heavy cat cost 180 wood and 80 gold..wood essentially becomes or is in fact more expensive.
    Also, it is not that I like gold but that the game was...
    more like from the getgo your crazy emphasis on gold and 'stone? oh hell with that' 'i want gold!' 'i want gold to be more immense than in real life really has' and wood is whatever too. considering 30% of earth's land mass is covered in trees and gold is considerably <1% on earth
    With Egypt I was thinking more along the lines of giving them a bonus such as +x% gold miner work rate, +y gold carriage and +z% more gold per mine rather than their current bonus.

    Egypt will not be required to research coinage to get the extra gold, and get it from the stone age!
    then give egypt both this and coinage!
    It always bothered me that Egypt was supposed to have this gold bonus, but then not get all techs for it and then not get the extra coinage gold, leaving them with less than the other civs!
    CONCUR! it was incredibly disappointing
    I've always been under the impression that Egypt had the best agriculture and tech of their time, yet their troops were only mediocre...
    this is true they did have the best agriculture and tech of their time even though mainline troops were mediocre however they were generally capable of defeating any opponent and look at it's elite units such as it's chariot archers. they were devastating during their time.
    ...They had some of the best agriculture and quarrying as well as commanding a good bit of trade.
    rasteve, egypt needs both that gold bonus you plan, coinage and add to that, siegecraft! (yes they had catapults) regardless if they 'supposively dont need it' egypt did have a great economic power at the time which they focused on and that's why their troops were considered mediocre. and besides i believe elephant archers and especially priests are very expensive.

    add to that, im surprised egypt didnt have any shields. even aom confirmed egypt had up to iron shields!

    perhaps egypt needs bronze, iron and tower shields (those rectangular shields their mainline troops carry along with their sickle shaped copper/bronze short swords appear to be tower shields) and then they may get armored elephant!

    [This message has been edited by volume (edited 11-13-2009 @ 01:28 AM).]

    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-13-09 11:01 AM ET (US)     198 / 269       
    Using the following figures (which I say are a good estimate):

    324000 wood
    36000 gold (coinage=50400)

    Therefore with wood more abundant, units which require wood are not really that expensive, considering how easy it is to get the resource. Units which cost gold are considered more expensive due to its rarity (in game). For example, 50 wood is totally different from 50 gold (simply considering the difference in difficulty obtaining each value).

    Wood > Food > Gold > Stone in terms of ease of gathering (although food has other considerations, such as farms).
    take a heavy cat cost 180 wood and 80 gold..wood essentially becomes or is in fact more expensive.
    This is why I would disagree with the above statement. Yes 180 > 80 but wood is far easier to get hold of than gold. However, in this example it is probably true that any player would have difficulty maintaining 180 wood to every 80 gold gathered. I would say 180 wood = 80 gold is closer than 1 wood = 1 gold.
    more like from the getgo your crazy emphasis on gold and 'stone? oh hell with that' 'i want gold!' 'i want gold to be more immense than in real life really has' and wood is whatever too. considering 30% of earth's land mass is covered in trees and gold is considerably <1% on earth
    Well, as previously stated, the changes were made for balancing the game. I cannot really consider following real life in this mod because it will completely change the game. I have experimented before with using the engine to model "real-life" but it doesn't play well. Having wood, stone and gold proportional to real-life is more down to the locked random map scripts which is something I cannot change. I would love to have food deplete slowly as you feed your population, walkable farms and so on, but it isn't possible without effectively making your own game from scratch.

    I feel the gold:stone:wood ratio in game is better suited to 200 pop games than previously, which was my goal. (I would also like to add I hate gold, own nothing gold, wear nothing gold ).
    this is true they did have the best agriculture and tech of their time even though mainline troops were mediocre however they were generally capable of defeating any opponent and look at it's elite units such as it's chariot archers. they were devastating during their time.
    I have to disagree on the military aspect. Egypt had lost many conflicts, had been conquered many times, and during their peak couldn't defeat Hittite. They were a civilisation but by no means conquerors. I believe most of their neighbours ended up as Pharaoh.
    rasteve, egypt needs both that gold bonus you plan, coinage and add to that, siegecraft! (yes they had catapults) regardless if they 'supposively dont need it'
    I am considering a coinage-style bonus to replace the current gold bonus (for reasons already stated).

    Siegecraft - no! They were never known for their siege warfare, and will unbalance the game (egypt already has its own unique RM and DM strats).

    Coinage - no! They don't need a double gold bonus, one will be good enough here. Secondly, Egypt as a self-ruled civilisation ended before the Iron Age, and "Egyptian coins" refer to Greek/Macedonian/Roman conquered Egypt.
    egypt did have a great economic power at the time which they focused on and that's why their troops were considered mediocre. and besides i believe elephant archers and especially priests are very expensive.
    Not to sound like a smart arse but I believe you had gone back on yourself here. Firstly, was the Egyptian military force strong or weak? Secondly, are you saying gold-based units are cheap or very expensive?
    add to that, im surprised egypt didnt have any shields. even aom confirmed egypt had up to iron shields!
    I think most of the infantry were Nubian warriors, carrying light shields (possibly not even metal).
    perhaps egypt needs bronze, iron and tower shields (those rectangular shields their mainline troops carry along with their sickle shaped copper/bronze short swords appear to be tower shields) and then they may get armored elephant![
    Tower shields are more Roman-era, and giving the armored elephant would unbalance the game. It is not a bad idea, but just too much of a change. I would say giving Egypt iron shield and armored eles would add a new dimension to the civ, but they already have a set strat, so why change it?

    Egyptian with siegecraft, coinage, war eles, tower shields...makes me think of Hittite
    Ninetails
    AoEH MMC Winner
    (id: TailSpray)
    posted 11-13-09 12:48 PM ET (US)     199 / 269       
    I think that Egypt should be a civ that is strong at home, but weak abroad. They have big econ to back up large amounts of military, but nothing that can really kick butt. They have the resources to keep 'em coming, but what they keep coming is relatively weak. Yet good defenses and priests keep them safe in their base and protect their villagers.

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    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-13-09 01:47 PM ET (US)     200 / 269       
    200!

    Yes they are just like this in DM.

    In RM they are quite good (200 pop). You can drag a game into a long chariot battle, and I would say they rival Assyrian in that department. But in iron they are not so strong (which I would say matches their history).
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