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Topic Subject:Age of Empires: The Rise or Rome RasPatch
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Rasteve
Clubman
posted 08-05-09 08:50 PM ET (US)         
UPDATED 11 NOVEMEBER

v0.5 is now complete and available via the granary.

DOWNLOAD HERE

Feel free to email if you have any questions. My email address is rasteveBBBatBBBtalkBBB21BBBdotBBBcom (remove the BBB's).

v0.5
Enhancements

- Single player games now have 200 population limits as default
- Civilisation unique bonuses improved to strengthen weaknesses
- Super units have unique abilities
- Iron age market technologies have special bonuses
- Ships and buildings are prone to fire damage
- Shield upgrades apply to all units with a shield
- Gaia buildings have the Roman tileset
- Installation does not overwrite original game files

Balance Changes
- Cataphracts have double LOS (super ability)
- Legions train 6 seconds faster (super ability)
- Centurions have 1 range (super ability)
- Gold mines have +200 gold
- Stone mines have +50 stone
- Foot archers have 90% accuracy (previously 100%)
- Mounted archers have 80% accuracy (previously 100%)
- Clubmen, axemen and short swordsmen no longer affected by shield technologies
- Scythe chariot, heavy cavalry and cataphracts affected by shield technologies
- Broad, long, legion, hoplites, phalanx, centies and scythes start with 1 pierce
- Heavy horse archers speed increased to 2.6 (previously 2.5)
- Fire galley deals 12 fire damage (shield and armour cannot reduce damage)
- Fire galley deals +12 bonus vs ships and buildings (no change vs ships)
- Scouts have 12 LOS (no longer increased with each age advancement)
- Stone throwers, catapults and heavy catapults minimum range +1 (3)
- All farm technologies +150 food yield (previously +75)
- All wood technologies +25% woodcutter work rate (previously +0.2 work/sec)
- All stone technologies +40% stone miner work rate (previously +0.3 work/sec)
- All gold technologies +40% gold miner work rate (previously +0.3 work/sec +25% coinage)
- All gold technologies +2 gold carriage (previously +3)
- Coinage increases gold mine yield (amount of gold) by 40% (previously 25%)
- Craftsmanship increases arrow and missile speed by 20%
- Irrigation reduces farm cost by 50%
- Jihad +20% villager speed (previously +0.3 speed)
- Alchemy gives additional +1 bonus vs ships and buildings (including previous effects)
- Assyrian cavalry, heavy cavalry and cataphracts have +2 pierce bonus
- Babylonian stone miners +50% work rate (previously 44%)
- Carthaginian fishing and trade ships have 30% speed increase (like transports)
- Choson short, broad, long and legion have +60 hit points bonus
- Egyptian gold miners +50% work rate (previously 44%)
- Greek slingers have +1 pierce armor bonus
- Minoan improved bowmen also have +2 range and los (like compies)
- Persian hunters +70% work rate (previously 67%)
- Persian scout ship and war galley also have 50% fire rate increase (like triremes)
- Roman barracks units (club, axe, sling, sword) have 33% attack rate bonus
- Cheat units are no longer affected by technologies or civ bonuses
- Hero units are no longer affected by technologies or civ bonuses
- Text improved for technologies (popup help, status line etc)
- More help references added to Rise or Rome content (for future changes to help file)
- Buildings and units have been grouped differently

Bug Fixes
- Status box text size reduced ("200/200" no longer overlaps command buttons)
- Removed redudant technologies string references (alpha/beta strings no longer required)
- Hero12 is now named Hero Pericles
- Elephant king attack animation now shows correctly
- All trees contain the wood that is displayed in the status box
- Assyrian villager speed bonus of 20% (previously 18%, not 30% as quoted in manual)
- Assyrian archers fire rate bonus of 40% (previously 27% for bowman, 36% for mounted)
- Assyrian placed elephant archers are affected by 40% fire rate bonus (scenario builder)
- Babylonian rejuvenation bonus of 30% (previously 27%)
- Babylonian placed war elephants no longer upgrade to armored eles in post-iron settings
- Carthaginian transport speed bonus of 30% (previously 25% for light, 43% for heavy)
- Carthaginian placed rafts are affected by 30% speed bonus (scenario builder)
- Choson priest cost reduction implemented as a subtraction rather than multiplication
- Choson post-iron barracks now train legions with the hp bonus
- Egyptian nobility yields +33% bonus +15% hp for chariots (previously dropped 1hp)
- Egyptian chariots hp the same whether nobility researched or iron/post-iron start
- Greek heavy infantry speed bonus of 30% (previously 33%)
- Greek warship speed bonus of 25% (previously 17% missile ships, 22% catapult ships)
- Hittite placed triremes are affected by +4 range/LOS bonus (scenario builder)
- Hittite placed impies no longer upgraded to composite bowmen in post-iron settings
- Hittite duplicated afterlife restriction removed
- Minoan post-iron archery range now trains composite bowmen with the range bonus
- Palmyran villagers work rate bonus of 50% (previously ranged between 33% and 50%)
- Palmyran repairman and builder work rate bonus of 50% (previously 0%)
- Palmyran farmers work rate bonus of 50% (previously 0%)
- Persian elephant speed bonus of 50% (previously 56%)
- Persian trireme rate of fire bonus of 50% (previously 39%)
- Persian placed hoplites no longer upgraded to centurions in post-iron settings
- Persian farms no longer benefit from irrigation in post-iron settings
- Phoenician catapult ship rate of fire bonus of 65% (previously 72%)
- Phoenician unknown restriction removed
- Roman swordsman attack rate bonus implemented as a multiplication
- Shang duplicated villager bonus removed
- Sumerian catapult class rate of fire bonus of 50% (previously 43%)
- Yamato villager speed bonus of 20% (previously 18%, not 30% as quoted in manual)
- Yamato ship bonus of 30% (rounded up, previously dropped 1hp and fb/fs at 33%)
- Yamato placed war elephants no longer upgrade to armored eles in post-iron settings
- Phalanx upgrade now adds 1 to researched technologies score within achievements
- Centurion upgrade now affects placed phalanx units (scenario builder)
- Long swordsman upgrade now affects placed broad swordsman units (scenario builder)
- Legion upgrade now affects placed broadies and long swordsman units (scenario builder)
- Trireme upgrade now affects placed war galley units (scenario builder)
- Added fire galley prerequisite text to galley upgrade
- Aristocracy now increases academy units speed by 25% (previously 28%, 21% Greek)
- Added centurion prerequisite text to aristocracy
- Nobility now increases hit points by 15% (rounded up, previously dropped 1hp)
- Added scythe chariot prerequisite text to nobility
- Added ballista tower prerequisite text to ballistics
- Added juggernaught prerequisite text to engineering
- Alchemy now adds the correct attack type to each unit
- Alchemy text now details actual benefits
- Wheel technology increases villager speed by 60% (previously 64%, 54% Assy/Yammy)
- Artisanship now increases LOS for all archery range units (previously omitted mounted)
- Added correct technology effects text to all market technologies
- Catapult upgrade text now follows standard convention
- Heavy catapult upgrade now affects placed catapult units (scenario builder)
- Fixed more help reference for catapult (previously pointed to heavy catapult)
- Cataphract upgrade now affects placed heavy cavalry units (scenario builder)
- Armor text has been changed to make effects clearer
- Added heavy horse archer prerequisite text to chain mail for archers technology
- Added cataphract prerequisite text to metallurgy technology
- Storage pit attack technologies have been altered to remove legacy elephant affects
- Shield text has been changed to make effects clearer
- Armored elephant prerequisite text added to iron shield technology
- Changed the way astrology effect is applied
- Changed astrology research text to include affects on healing rate
- Fanaticism increases rejuvenation rate by 50% or 40% babylon (previously 43% or 34%)
- Legion prerequisite text added to fanaticism technology
- Added babylonian rejuvenation rate change text to fanaticism technology
- Changed medicine research text to declare actual benefit
- Added building exclusions to monotheism research text
- Changed jihad technology text to indicate actual affects
- Changed martyrdom technology text to include enemy priest exclusion
- Guard tower uppgrade now affects placed sentry towers (scenario builder)
- Ballista tower upgrade now affects placed sentry and guard towers (scenario builder)
- Removed duplicated archery range upgrade for iron age advance
- Removed duplicated technology effect from medicine technology
- General reinforcement of technology prerequisites

Test Packs
- DM Test Pack: Includes Choson, Persian and Egyptian DM games (2 maps for each) - 1v1 Iron Hillz (large) setting
- DM Test Pack Unstable: Same as above but the AI scripts are very prone to crashing on my machine.
- RM Test Pack: Assyrian RM game (2 maps) - 1v1 Stone Hillz (large) HARDEST (starting resources boost) setting

Dat Change Count
v0.1: 446 dat changes
v0.2: 602 dat changes
v0.3: 313 dat changes
v0.4: 2401 dat changes
v0.5: 1001 dat changes

Total Changes
4763 dat changes
298 dll changes
4 AI replacements
5 PER changes
15 other changes

v0.6 Proposal
This version will concentrate on the units, and will include such fixes as enabling units in the editor, placeable gaia units near edge of map, text updates etc.

I will also make the following changes to heroes:
  • All ranged heroes will automatically have alchemy and ballistics
  • All heroes will have increased attributes (as techs no longer affect them)
  • Villager heroes will no longer change to villagers when tasked

    Further balance changes:
  • Archers fire 100% accurate: More units get shields now
  • Stone: Mines have 350 stone (+100 on original, +50 on last update)
  • Egypt: Gets 40% coinage-like bonus to replace current gold bonus
  • Palmyran: villagers have 40% work rate
  • Shang: ballista/helepolis missiles travel 20% faster
  • Persian: barracks units cost 20% less
  • Babylonian: priests get 30% conversion+healing bonus instead of rejuvenation rate bonus
  • Phoenician: 20% work rate woodies
  • Sumerian: academy units cost 20% less
  • Hittite: siege gets 50% hp bonus and not 100%, missile and siege ships have +2 range bonus (not +4 for missiles ships)

    Wishlist
  • Siege can be repaired by villies
  • Trade involves more resources


    Please let me know any problems, suggestions or general feedback.

    Just in case you were wondering, this patch builds upon the RoR v1.0a US Language version.

    [This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 11-30-2009 @ 10:26 PM).]

  • AuthorReplies:
    volume
    Clubman
    posted 11-04-09 07:29 AM ET (US)     151 / 269       
    i heard something about slowing down and weakening chariots (particularly scythe chariots) and or taking away pierce armor (shields)

    imho i think they should be fine the way they are scythe chariots in particular are one of the ultimate units so they should be able to kill cavalry and sometimes even heavy cavalry so there is no need to weaken them.

    chariots since pulled by two horses and the weight of its speed are perhaps historically faster than cavalry not by acceleration but by top speed. even if they do ram into an army of infantry shields. they should arguably be able to run over infantry (especially individual infantry when they are broken and try to flee) therefore, chariots speed is fine as is and is absolutely unnecessary and undesirable to slow them.

    since the idea of shields and upgrading shields (pierce armor) is a matter of any unit with shield starts with 1 pierce armor (shield) and shield upgrades upgrade that shield (which at maximum 3 shield upgrades would be equal to 4) 4 should be an excellent if not perfect number and no one should be bitching about it!
    Suppiluliuma
    AoEH Seraph
    posted 11-05-09 09:29 PM ET (US)     152 / 269       
    no one should be bitching about it!

    It seems like volume doesn't know me then XD lol, nah! i'm just kidding. Okay back on topic 4 is a nice Piercing armor value.
    Aran
    Clubman
    posted 11-06-09 03:53 AM ET (US)     153 / 269       
    Scythes-
    Piercing armor yes (1). (4) Piercing armor I say no.
    Why

    Mounted range units have 80% accuracy and bowmens 90%. I think Scythes will be unstoppable. It will be antyrange unit better than uprades of cavarly(it costs gold and it is easier convert it). Other thing they are cheap. You can produce all time this unit and attack in the mass towers. In DM it is good thing, but in multiplayer random map it could kill the tactical point of game. Everybody most of all will attack Scythes only.

    I dont know Scythes should have other bonuses. They are antypriests, fast, nongold, antyvillager unit.

    or

    I was thinking about two thing. A lot civs have access to Scythes. From my Historical wisdom. This unit had Romans, Egiptians and Shang. Another thing maybe scythes will be new no upgraded (cost gold) unit. Chariots wil be non ugraded to Scythes?

    Offtopic Does Slingers have upgrade in AOH
    volume
    Clubman
    posted 11-06-09 08:27 AM ET (US)     154 / 269       
    then how you supposed to start with (1) shield and get 1 additional per upgrade with 3 upgrades?

    a little off topic, i never agreed nor cared with rasteve's archer accuracy reduction thing. i say it should be 100% no matter what though it is a straight shot without ballistics so you can always step to the side to dodge (dance) it off.

    speaking of ballistics even with the lowered accuracy then what about after ballistics? would that make 100% accuracy and if not, make that happen to compensate this 'lowered accuracy'?

    even aok came out with tc a tech known as thumbring that made what? 80% accurate archers and 50% accurate cavalry archers fire at 100% accuracy no matter what.

    i would say rasteve needs to restore the accuracy of archers back to 100% as any inaccuracy is not necessary in this game and can be compensated by extra shields (pierce armor) or dodging and if that doesnt fly, then compensate instead with ballistics

    besides heavy cavalry and cataphracts will have the same at max 1+3 and heavy infantry and elephants can kill chariots easily. with 1+3 shields for the cavalry and chariot with shields that will give them some more of a better chance then simply let's say numerous composite bowman can kill cavalry and scythe chariots.
    The Dark Archer
    HG Alumnus
    posted 11-06-09 04:48 PM ET (US)     155 / 269       
    But no archer in real life is ever going to be 100% accurate.

    The Dark Archer

    "Try not to become a man of success but rather to become a man of value." - Albert Einstein
    "I once met a girl who looked like a camel" - Rasteve
    Death of the Morads | AoEH Design Series II | Out From the Cliffs
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-06-09 05:11 PM ET (US)     156 / 269       
    I believe that scythes are at the bottom of the pile when it comes to hand-to-hand combat (in DM). However, scythes are good vs siege, towers and siege units. The beauty of scythes is cost, you can keep pumping them out.

    Ok, wave after wave will fall but the important thing is to starve gold-dependant civs. Civs like hittite and yamato are pretty much dead in DM if they run out of gold.

    The change implemented gives scythes shield, which is based on the following:

    - scythes have shield (in graphic)
    - makes scythes even better vs towers (useful for non-siege civs)
    - makes scythes even better vs heavy horse archers and other missile units

    The change should have little impact on RM games due to resource management issues, and I don't think many competitive games will see scythes running around with 4 pierce (i.e. all upgrades).

    The change should have no real bearing on hand-to-hand combat.

    I was considering weakening scythes in hand-to-hand, possibly a drop in hp - which would make scythes more specialised in anti-towers/archers/priests/siege. This is only a consideration and not a final decision. In fact, I have no plans to make this change in v0.5.

    I may implement a chariot/scythe chariot "bonus" whereby such units deal reduced damage on elevation. This will be based on the current archer bonus (but in reverse) - and something I need to figure out.

    This will make scythes more complex (considering its various bonuses and weaknesses) but would yield a far superior level of realism as well as a logical re-balancing of the game (mainly scythes in hand-to-hand battle).

    On the pierce armour I would say that the changes made feel logical, but need further testing to prove the game is balanced. I have already highlighted that Hittite may appear to become stronger in DM games, but they get so many units + excellent siege, so will this difference actually do anything? Will you manage to have enough villies on wood, gold and food for heavy cats and scythes? Why do you need scythes to dominate towers and archers when siege are more than capable???

    I have no immediate plans to change the pierce/shield changes until I have both tested extensively and received relevant feedback. I would encourage people to try the patch (v0.5 when released) via multiplayer to get a feel for the changes. Try out regular strats, try modified strats etc and see how the game ties up.

    Overall archers should be weaker. Cavalry gets a boost, and barracks are more viable. Siege may be indirectly balanced by more cavalry/stable units being present due to new strats.

    In a balanced rock paper scissors method:

    Archers > Infantry
    Cavalry > Archers
    Infantry > Cavalry

    But in the original game:

    Archers > Infantry (as expected)
    Cavalry > Archers (until archers reach critical mass!)
    Infantry < Cavalry (complete reverse)

    With the changes archers need more units to reach critical mass, therefore cavalry is more dominant. Archers do not own infantry as much as before. Cavalry can still dominate infantry but critical mass is more achievable (as archers are less viable, and therefore will not be such a burden on infantry as a whole).

    Volume has made one good point regarding accuracy, and one which is very likely to change. Pierce armour renders archer units weaker, and the accuracy factor makes them even weaker. Tool Age slingers are able to compete with chariot archers, albeit acting as a stop-gap before hitting iron, but roman and greek slingers are even better.

    You could face off against Assyrian (pumping out CA in a RM game) and do quite well with only a barracks (particulary roman!). With bronze upgrades slingers and broad swordsmen could start to push back CA.

    I am seriously considering putting accuracy back to 100%, which was also down to towers/ballistas/war ships accuracy remaining at 100%.


    I am nearly nearly nearly ready. I have made quite a large number of changes, and all will be revealed shortly.

    [This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 11-06-2009 @ 05:59 PM).]

    volume
    Clubman
    posted 11-07-09 10:45 AM ET (US)     157 / 269       
    well as far as balancing issues in regarding the scythe chariot 'as is' except with the addition of it's pierce armor and max pierce armor value at 4. there should be no issue whatsoever. weakening them by reducing their attack, armor, hp etc would be UNNECESSARY. heavy infantry such as longswordsman and phalanx are still capable of taking them down and the scythe chariots shock value including as one of the ultimate units (the glow background they got) should allow them to take out others including light cavalry and sometimes even challenging heavy cavalry (cataphract of course still easily beats them)

    as for the archers accuracy im pleased you saw my point rasteve. it really made nonsense to reduce, weaken or complicate them.

    i know how folks are like it should be realistic in real life but then again you have to balance. but perhaps even as important is aoe's value for example in this case scythe chariots are used for shock to intimidate and break troops but against steady veteran troops they are already clashed with their inherent weakness (scythe chariots beat light to medium troops but are nevertheless 'as is' still a chariot and with their current attributes already still weak versus heavy troops) so rasteve please dont lower their hp or anything otherwise you will have to likewise do it with the chariot and then it becomes do it with something else and then something else on and on and on just for balance.

    another case of 'realism' regarding archers (or any missile fire) for that matter is not at issue being 100%. subsequent age games are still virtually 100%. aok have tried to limit the accuracy but nevertheless realize it unnecessary as first of all archers train for accuracy and with especially the cavalry archer accuracy at 50% meant that the troops were not trained and were a joke. tc came out with thumbring to just simply eliminate that all together. and notice that all other missile units from the getgo towers, castles, ships and siege were virtually at 100% perhaps all the time. aom showed virtually the same at 100% and finally age3 came and look at how musketeers are 100% accurate when we know in 'real life' they are not

    in summary aoe isnt exactly about 'real life' it is a flat world not 3D and even age3 at virtual 3D is still at that linear in comparison

    [This message has been edited by volume (edited 11-07-2009 @ 10:46 AM).]

    Basse
    Clubman
    posted 11-07-09 11:41 AM ET (US)     158 / 269       
    Heavy infantry such as Legions can't take down scythes. 20 legions vs 20 scythes means scythes wins. Centurions should win in a 20 vs 20 fight (not sure here, haven't tested) but I think reducing attack is needed if you add piercing armour.
    Ilmarinen
    Clubman
    (id: Cilibinarii)
    posted 11-07-09 02:38 PM ET (US)     159 / 269       
    A few questions, sorry for any stupidity or earlier posts ignorance on my part but laziness is a virtue!

    Q - Will this is any way mess up my Composite Editor 0.9?

    Q - Whats with the prerequisites for, say, docks? You cant research trireme anyway without one so whats the point?

    Q - If, say, I want to make a scen with this mod installed, will other people need it aswell? I was thinking about for example the gaia being roman etc, as being handy maybe for scenarios that include gaia. Not sure though.

    Cilibinarii
    My AOK Maps
    Aran
    Clubman
    posted 11-07-09 02:58 PM ET (US)     160 / 269       
    Most pro players play with the was mix of CA, Scythe, HA and Catapults. In good economy you can have very fast this team. Rate 60% population of villagers is enough. I must say it's very good tactic.

    Another thing about Scythes:
    Civs Should have

    Romans- They don't have good archery range
    Egyptian- It's main unit
    Shang - Most their army sucks in the Iron Age. No balistic
    Babylonia-They don't have many super units. Lack some techs
    Phoenician- They have only good Eles. Rest land army is not bad, but lacks some techs.
    Palmyryans-They have most units, but no bonuses or they are average

    Should not have scythes
    Hitite -They have everything. Very good Cents, Best HHA, Best Catapults, one of best CA and Eles archer. Sumerians- They are one of the oldest empires. They should have something else instead.

    I agreed with Basse. Scythes should have some minus.

    Rome and Chosen Legions can kill mass scythes.

    I liked accuracy 80 and 90%.

    [This message has been edited by Aran (edited 11-07-2009 @ 03:00 PM).]

    Basse
    Clubman
    posted 11-07-09 03:22 PM ET (US)     161 / 269       
    No Aran, I was playing a game at Gameranger and I was roman, mass pump scythes vs hes choson legions. Rome and Choson legions 1vs1 scythes will kill them easy but with scythes damaging around itself makes it harder on the battlefield because all other legions gets damaged by several scythes while the legions only hit single scythes.

    [This message has been edited by Basse (edited 11-07-2009 @ 03:22 PM).]

    Max_CRAZY
    Clubman
    posted 11-07-09 08:43 PM ET (US)     162 / 269       
    considering players with same skills, scythes will never pwn legions. Legions are strong, produced too fast and too cheap. Specially if they r choson legions.
    Suppiluliuma
    AoEH Seraph
    posted 11-07-09 09:32 PM ET (US)     163 / 269       
    Max has quite some experience so i'll take his word as truth. Scythes aren't too strong, they are just fine as they are. The only problem i see is that they don't cost gold.
    Archers > Infantry (as expected)
    Cavalry > Archers (until archers reach critical mass!)
    Infantry Cavalry (complete reverse)
    Funny because Imo cavalry only works in bronze/early iron. thereafter is almost a burden
    Basse
    Clubman
    posted 11-08-09 04:50 AM ET (US)     164 / 269       
    Choson legions do win 1v1 scythes but scythes kill all surrounding legions too, that means all legions gets weakend very quick on the battle field. 1 scythe vs 5 legions handles out more damage than the legions do to the single scythe.

    Well, if everyone (except me) thinks scythes are just ok, fine. I won't argue about this anymore
    volume
    Clubman
    posted 11-08-09 09:04 AM ET (US)     165 / 269       
    also to add that the chariot is more expensive alone then infantry. and with rasteve's patch with it's emphasis on gold here and there including raising it up to 800 per mine that should not be an issue.

    essentially wood is more expensive than gold so chariots are more expensive than legions. and with more legions popping and flying they will take out scythe chariots.
    Basse
    Clubman
    posted 11-08-09 09:14 AM ET (US)     166 / 269       
    Good point, didn't think of that
    Aran
    Clubman
    posted 11-08-09 10:02 AM ET (US)     167 / 269       
    It will be 600 gold per mine.

    1)Wood is important but on the map are many trees and you can kill easy enemys wood or gold carrying villigares with Scythes.
    2) Scythes are faster and more mobily unit than Legions. Hit and run tactic. When you lost battle you can cure them very fast.

    I would like to see Scythes as special(mercanaries)gold dependent unit with the good piercing. Few Civs should have upgrade too that thing.

    [This message has been edited by Aran (edited 11-08-2009 @ 10:03 AM).]

    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-08-09 05:46 PM ET (US)     168 / 269       
    as for the archers accuracy im pleased you saw my point rasteve. it really made nonsense to reduce, weaken or complicate them.
    The balance between archers and hand-to-hand units needed to be addressed, and the first solution attempted was to reduce accuracy. This seemed to work initially, but since the pierce changes (which fix other balance issues) the accuracy change now seems excessive. The reduced accuracy change will remain in v0.5 but is likely to be withdrawn if further testing and feedback shows archers being too weak.
    Will this is any way mess up my Composite Editor 0.9?
    No - the installation process will create new files which will not affect the main game. How to install and uninstall is contained in the patch.txt file.
    Whats with the prerequisites for, say, docks? You cant research trireme anyway without one so whats the point?
    I presume you are refering to the bug fixes listed. There are a number of issues where certain units are automatically upgraded or behave not as expected when setting up scenarios in the scenario builder (mainly with the post-iron age setting). I filled in the prerequisites to stop these problems.
    If, say, I want to make a scen with this mod installed, will other people need it aswell? I was thinking about for example the gaia being roman etc, as being handy maybe for scenarios that include gaia. Not sure though.
    Yes, you will need the mod installed. But it will be free (you will need the original game installed) and will not affect your current game!
    considering players with same skills, scythes will never pwn legions. Legions are strong, produced too fast and too cheap. Specially if they r choson legions.
    Yes, legions should cope with scythes. In order to maximise kills, you will need to have good micro skills. Scythes are better at getting into catapults, helepolis, towers and forward buildings. Scythes are only good at hand-to-hand by acting as a meat shield - they are inexpensive considering wood always outlasts gold in DM.
    Scythes aren't too strong, they are just fine as they are. The only problem i see is that they don't cost gold.
    If they did cost gold then they would probably be stronger. However, having non-gold units actually makes games longer, as gold runs out before wood! Having chariots cost gold would require another unit to not cost gold - and shifting the balance of the game quite considerably.
    Funny because Imo cavalry only works in bronze/early iron. thereafter is almost a burden
    True, but scythes, heavy cavalry and cataphracts now get shield, and cataphracts get double LOS - so hopefully they are much more common.

    I know 100+ armored eles running at you in DM games can be quite daunting - but you can defeat them with centies/helepolis/priests etc (or even your own eles). Now consider 100+ cataphracts with pierce and LOS increases! Their speed poses new problems - as does their ability to combat towers and hha (and maybe even helepolis).
    Choson legions do win 1v1 scythes but scythes kill all surrounding legions too, that means all legions gets weakend very quick on the battle field. 1 scythe vs 5 legions handles out more damage than the legions do to the single scythe.
    If you can get your scythes right into a group of legions (whereby they surround you) - you will maximise kills. But this requires constant micro possibly spent better elsewhere (such as coming up with a better solution to combating legions, or trying to pull a section of units off to take out the forward buildings/locating enemy tcs etc).
    essentially wood is more expensive than gold so chariots are more expensive than legions. and with more legions popping and flying they will take out scythe chariots.
    Gold hungry civs (persians, yamato etc) really struggle if you force them into long drawn out battles, and/or constantly harass gold mine locations. Wood is far easier to collect and is far more abundant. Legions are also cheap (as the gold required should be achievable throughout most of the DM game). Legions should beat scythes, and scythes are better suited to taking out towers, archer units and siege, and also acting as a meat shield to preserve gold (as well as deplete enemy gold supplies).
    It will be 600 gold per mine.
    True, gold mines have 600 gold now (up 200 per mine) BUT coinage now increases gold by 40% - so civs with coinage can yield 840 gold per mine!

    This puts gold civs/units in a far better position - and hopefully the potential for longer DM games. RM games shouldn't be too affected, although hopefully civs which poor pre-iron strats should be able to deal a bigger blow on reaching the iron. For example, a choson RM game could see the player cut off from the majority of the map - but in holding 1 or 2 gold mine locations (with the gold increase) should allow a stronger push in the iron.

    I need to test and take further considerations on how this will affect DM games. One obvious change would be for egypt - who, in my opinion, is more suited to playing defensive until the opposite player runs out of gold (surviving on chariot archers, towers and scythes + priests). If gold lasts longer (potential for longer "siege") then egypt will be weaker. One solution could be to change the gold bonus to act like coinage (increase gold mine gold! - which will help train more ele archers).

    Progress Update
    I am making 2 final changes before releasing:

    Iron market techs currently introduce "special abilities"-
    Siegecraft - villagers can take down towers/walls easily
    Coinage - free gold

    I want to add special abilities to all iron market techs, so:
    Craftsmanship - all missiles (arrow/ballista) travel 20% faster (harder to dodge!)
    Irrigation - farmers carry double food (20, although this will 12 with jihad tech, which should help with farm micro in DM games)

    Note farm upgrades get double (150) food compared to original game - making farms far easier to manage (mainly concerned with DM games).
    Aran
    Clubman
    posted 11-09-09 05:33 AM ET (US)     169 / 269       
    I like Irrigation and Craftsmanship bonuses. Jihad would be more useful.

    What about Trade. I was thinking that docks regenerate faster each age and merchant ship get more gold from travel.

    Will some new trade techs added in game.? This is last my question
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-09-09 10:14 AM ET (US)     170 / 269       
    I will take a look at boosting trade - such as tweaking dock regeneration and the gold calculation if possible.

    I am trying to bring trade techs to Age of Heroes, as well as trying out land trading.
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-10-09 10:43 AM ET (US)     171 / 269       
    Irrigation - farmers carry double food (20, although this will 12 with jihad tech, which should help with farm micro in DM games)
    Do you think changing this to make farms free (0 wood) is too excessive???
    Ilmarinen
    Clubman
    (id: Cilibinarii)
    posted 11-10-09 10:59 AM ET (US)     172 / 269       
    Free farms? Doesnt that make fishers sorta obsolete, and hunting too? (which are food sources that might be less efficient, but I love less efficient things because hunting and fishing gives me a more ancient feel than farming )

    Cilibinarii
    My AOK Maps
    Nacht Jaeger
    Clubman
    (id: RCM7525)
    posted 11-10-09 10:59 AM ET (US)     173 / 269       
    I'd just reduce it by half or two-thirds.

    Nacht Jaeger - Ex AoEH Angel
    Rasteve
    Clubman
    posted 11-10-09 12:01 PM ET (US)     174 / 269       
    Irrigation is a late iron tech, and in most cases hunting/fishing/foraging tasks should be impossible by this stage.

    In DM - where it will have the biggest impact - fishing isn't common (considering hillz the prefered map), hunting and foraging tasks are over pretty quickly (and hunting takes too much micro to really consider in more competitive games). Farms are usually placed in abundance.

    I think I will go along Nacht's idea - half price farms! Romans do not get irrigation, so I don't have to worry about the building cost bonus here. Farms will cost 38 or 39 (depending on how the game calculates the change) after irrigation.

    Craftsmanship - 20% faster missiles (arrows/ballista bolts)
    The following do not get the tech:
    Macedonian (not heavily dependant on archers anyway)
    Palmyran (villagers have 50% better work rate, gets alchemy and ballistics for archers)
    Persian (crappy missile unit range anyway)
    Sumerian (gets all other archer upgrades)

    Irrigation - half price farms
    The following do not get the tech:
    Palmyran (villagers have 50% better work rate, although the farmer work rate is bugged at the moment)
    Persian (get faster eles anyway)
    Roman (already get cheaper farms)

    I would say that these changes only really affect Persia in a bad way. In RM the game may already be decided before the wheel tech (and other bronze+ market techs) come into affect, and persia has bonuses (navy and hunting) to help in RM. In DM, persia gets fast eles, so potential to hit other player(s) early (the bigger the blow, the better chances persia has!) - also persia has more feasible cataphracts, gold mines have more gold etc.

    [This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 11-10-2009 @ 12:02 PM).]

    Aran
    Clubman
    posted 11-10-09 02:12 PM ET (US)     175 / 269       
    It's good idea, but maybe Farms could cost 50 instead(33%) or Romans could have bigger bonus to reduce building (20%). It's 5% more.

    First bonus is good for Eles, Cavalry , Eles Archers and HHa.
    Second is good for Siege, Ships and Chariots.

    Persian would not be on bad side. From farms will be more food, but they could have more techs from market.

    Both Are good ideas

    Balistas would fire in 4 seconds?

    [This message has been edited by Aran (edited 11-10-2009 @ 02:17 PM).]

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