I think Greek centies are fasterthan their pathetic shorties and other normal infantry. Thus, they can get there and take out the heavy cats with the helis backing up. The reason the HCats have to fall back is so they can't fire on their own crowd. Known advantage of helis over HCats. Hurts especially if you just killed your hero in campaign mission.
Even better are scythes. I am just the biggest fan of scythe chariots right now, and I can't figure out why.

[This message has been edited by jordanthejq12 (edited 07-14-2009 @ 12:02 PM).]

I could still crush that pretty easily with HCats and Armored Elephants. I could crush your heleopoli with Hcats before you have a chance to hit me, And then it would be centurions vs armored elephants, while i still have the Hcats crushing your centys.

DARN! Wait a second, scouts to keep your HCats firing at each other while scythes tear up your cats. Then, it's centies and scythes-which can trample eles like eles can trample scythes-vs. elephants that by now are quite worn down. EVERYTHING CAN BE COUNTERED SOME WAY.
Besides, I could always go the HHA/EA route-elephant archers to take the heat of the cats while HHA wreck them.

Elephants beat centurions if they are crowded because of the trample damage.

Also i've learned something since the firt time i faced an hittite enemy 10 years ago: Nothing that lives can stand a large army of heavy cats, no matter what is it.

And jordan, you're right anything could be countered, but now you've added scytes to the equation, remember that even tho chariots are cheap (resource wise) you still got a population limit and while most of my population would be Armored elephants and Heavy catapults yours be divided in Centies, Helepolii, Hcats and now Scythe chariots and only Rome have that combination of units, and so slow centurions. I think numbers would favour the HCat/ArmEle user

Also if you choose rome you won't be able to train mounted archers...which makes me think: are you talking about Full tech tree games?. If you're, i still think numbers would make the HCat/ArmEle user get the upper hand in the battle.

Ah, but the difference is floodability. So I can, if I was Rome for example, quickly produce a legion rush faster than your HCat flood, even with the same number of siege workshops vs. barracks. How is this possible?
Take a wood-oriented water-map economy, for example. Barracks cost 125 wood vs. 200 for a siege workshop. With, say, five of each, you've spent 1,000 wood vs. only 875 for me-so I've saved enough wood for another barracks, making the legion rush more cost-effective in that respect.
Actually, my rax only cost 103 wood. 103 wood x6 rax =618 wood, so I have 382 wood to spend before we're even at 1000 wood spent-enough for 3 more rax, making nine. And I still have 73 wood.
You also have to spend more wood on your catapults, whereas I spend food. (I'm not counting gold, as we both must have gold-heavy economies to succeed and might be trading with each other and/or mining at 5 or 6 quarries.) That 382 wood could be spent on 5 fishing ships, or 6 farms. Better yet, it's a couple of triremes. 382 wood may not be much, but I have options.
Legions are created faster then siege, we know that, right? However, I must continue this chatter later. Can anyone get me creation speed numbers for the legion and the heavy catapult, both fully upgraded?

legions can easily outrush a heavy cat only strat, that is why a full tech game would probably see stables then siege. in the scenario of facing up against legions, the stables would slowly lose BUT keep churning out eles, possibly scythes whilst the siege is constructed. before long you can roll in and smash those puny little men hahahaha.

assuming an iron start:

legion:
barracks
long sword upgrade
legion upgrade

temple
fanaticism

optional storage pit techs (2 shields, armour, metallurgy)

cats:
siege workshop
cat upgrade
heavy cat upgrade

market
siegecraft upgrade

optional gov center techs (ballistics, engineering)

so start a cat strat with something like scythe:

stable:
scythe upgrade

storage pit (armour, metallurgy)

or
stable:
armored elephant upgrade

storage pit (iron shield)


i'm pretty sure that eles and/or scythes then cats is the way to go for full tech dm (unless you say archers only, legions war etc)

The scythe chariot is my favorite unit in the game, and here is why: It has angered us all to see that one vil(with wheel) who escapes the attack on his TC and flees to the other side of the map to establish a new town, only to come back and win(happened to me once). The scythe trample allows for any escaping vils to quickly die, and if they escape, scythes, unlike eles, can give chase.
Also, alchemy comes in if you balista rush. Aristocracy is good for a civ like Greece or Mace w/good phalanx.
I always grab martyrdom if I am ever implementing priests into my boom. Just as a fail-safe.