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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Rasteve announces... AoE.R: Age of Empires Realism Patch
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Topic Subject:Rasteve announces... AoE.R: Age of Empires Realism Patch
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Rasteve
Clubman
posted 10-21-08 09:49 AM ET (US)         
Important notice

I have been working on 2 projects:

AoE.Realism - to improve the realism of the game
AoE Balancing Patch - to improve the balance of the the game

In terms of the AoE.Realism, the changes proposed (so far) make the game completely different (with a new selection of civs, units, ages etc). The changes are parallel with the Dawn of Man project I have been working on. Therefore I will change my scope to 2 different projects, with this thread dedicated to:

AoE.R
Age of Empires Realism Patch

Objectives
Improve the game balance (so that all civs are playable in DM or RM)
Improve the realism (so that the attributes of units and civs are more realistic)
Maintain the fundamental rules and content of the original game (no new units, techs or buildings)
Provide solutions to as many issues as possible (single player campaign objectives, ai issues etc)

Problems

1.Camel Rider
RoR Specific
RM Games
Camel Rider > Cavalry, therefore cav civs such as Yamato are less favourable. Also, cav units are less likely to be trained (as camel own cav), therefore less likely to see Heavy Cavalry and Cataphract units.

Solution:
Cavalry Class +1 Pierce Armour
Camel Rider removed from Hittite Tech Tree
Camel Rider removed from Shang Tech Tree

2.Cataphract
AoE/RoR
RM Games
Arguably the least used of the super units, as high cost does not really justify the upgrade. Also, RoRs introduction of the Camel Rider makes Cataphract even more rare.

Possible Solutions:
Reduce cost of upgrade
Increase cataphract pierce armor, or/and other attributes to justify cost

3.Swordsmen
AoE/RoR
RM Games
Rarely used due to a number of reasons: need to research 4 upgrades including initial short sword, easily mowed down by archers and even cavalry have a bonus against them.

Possible Solutions:
Increase swordsman speed
Reduce swordsman train time
Make Short Sword automatically available in Bronze
Reduce cost

4.Siege
AoE/RoR
RM/DM Games
Seem to be used as a unit killer rather than staging a siege (RM) and during DM their effectiveness is so good it is common to see players churn out as many heavy cats and heles as possible.

Possible Solutions:
Decrease HP
Decrease RoF
Increase attack points
Increase minimum range
Increase siege pierce armor
Reduce accuracy

5.Scythe Chariot

6.Priests

7.Walls
AoE/RoR
RM Games
The time it takes to build does not compare to how easily these come down.

Possible Solutions:
Increase HP
Decrease build time
Add siege armor (can be done via dat editing)

8.Food Gathering
AoE/RoR
RM
Hunting is very poor in the game, and is not really part of anyones strategy. Adding efficiency would make the game more realistic (note Stone Age civs would hunt).

Possible Solutions:
Increase hunter carry capacity
Increase hunter work rate

9.Farming
AoE/RoR
RM
Farming methods are very slow/inefficient at gathering food (compared to foraging and shore fishing). Rates do not increase through the ages, despite technological advances.

Possible Solutions:
Farm techs include farmer work rate increases
Farmer work rates generally increased
Farm food increased
Farm cost reduced

10.Houses

11.Horse Archers
AoE/RoR
RM/DM
Too hard to catch due to their speed and too good at bring down opponents. The best counter is siege, but if siege not available then you don’t have a fair chance.

Possible Solutions:
Reduce Speed
Reduce Attack Points
Reduce RoF
Reduce accuracy
Increase cost

12.Calculations
AoE/RoR
General
Game documentation gives certain facts about the game, including civ bonuses and tech boosts in percentages. Actual calculations show that these stated % are false.

Possible solutions:
Change documentation
Apply documented values

13.RM Balance
AoE/RoR
RM
During RM games the best civs to choose are Shang, Yamato (AoE), Phoenician or Assyrian. These are all rushing civs. There is no really good turtling civ to block tool rushes, or combat bronze rushes. RM games are too predictable with players choosing one of the fast civs and then trying to out rush opponent. How do you counter a tool rush? Run or spread out.

Possible Solutions:
Group civs into “rush” and “turtle” civs and then apply bonuses etc to make them more viable in RM game

14.DM Balance
AoE/RoR
DM
During DM games the best civs are Choson and Hittite. Choson can be a good turtling civ with high range ballista towers, and Hittite can be a good rushing civ with nearly every iron age unit available.

Possible Solutions:
Group civs into “rush” and “turtle” civs and then apply bonuses etc to make them more viable in DM game

15.Help File
AoE/RoR
General
Help file needs updating for AoE changes and to include RoR content.

Possible Solutions:
Create new help file
Edit current help file

16.Improved Bowmen
AoE/RoR
RM
If Short Swordsman is made instantly available in Bronze Age (part of solution to issue 3) then improved bowman should follow!

Possible Solutions:
Make Impies instantly available in Bronze

17.US Language Unit Names
AoE/RoR
General
Academy unit names for heavy infantry = Hoplite (Greek specific), Phalanx (Greek formation, unit should be Phalangite) and Centurion (firstly, this is a commander of approx 100 infantry, secondly, its melee weapon was the sword) and the Helepolis graphic is a repeating ballista when the actual helepolis was a siege tower.

Possible Solutions:
Create new language.dll file with more realistic unit names


Next Stage
We need to identify all problems with the game, and then determine the best solution.

Notes on solutions:
Must solve the problem
Must not create another problem
If the problem is RoR only, the solution must be RoR only etc
Must stick to the objectives (realism, balance and without adding anything new)

[This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 10-24-2008 @ 06:42 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 10-27-08 02:29 PM ET (US)     26 / 47       
Some, not all of them. There are so many patches now to test ...
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 10-29-08 11:47 PM ET (US)     27 / 47       
Indeed, but it's good that this game's getting the attention it deserves (patches, balances...etc)
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 10-30-08 00:47 AM ET (US)     28 / 47       

I am still waiting for further feedback from IGZ players, and once they have got back to me I will make their changes. Should be mostly down to tech trees/bonus system.



I have been looking into the technical details and have made some strange discoveries. I will post these up soon, as they all probably need some fixes. For example, Persians have farm penalty on AoE but not RoR, Sumerians cannot upgrade to Merchant Ship in AoE but can in RoR, Age-ing up adds 2 LOS to Scout, I cannot see additional resistance added to Macedonians vs Priests, most "% increase/decrease" stated in game are not true, Assyrian and Yamato villager speeds different in AoE and RoR...

I am going to look more into the Macedonian conversion resistance problem and also to see if I can reverse the Shang 40 pop and -40 food "problem" (something I guess IGZ would like to change).

IGZ may also request that Scout units auto-attack rather than wait for you to command them.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 10-30-08 12:58 PM ET (US)     29 / 47       
I didn't know that fact about sumerians and merchant vessels in AoE. !
Rasteve i find the scout passivity most useful to explore, while staying undetected. I don't think making it like all the other military units that attack on sight, would be useful.
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 10-30-08 02:33 PM ET (US)     30 / 47       
Persians have farm penalty on AoE but not RoR, Sumerians cannot upgrade to Merchant Ship in AoE but can in RoR, Age-ing up adds 2 LOS to Scout, I cannot see additional resistance added to Macedonians vs Priests, most "% increase/decrease" stated in game are not true, Assyrian and Yamato villager speeds different in AoE and RoR...
Persian farm penalty: known, described in the RoR documentation. I know about the +2 LoS for scouts at ageing-up, but don't know if it's documented. Assy villagers speed is mentioned somewhere in the RoR documentation. I've long suspected that the Macedonian resistance vs priests was implemented for the lower age units but not for high-end ones like horse archers. Didn't know about the Sumerian trade boat thing. + x% productivity mostly means 0.x increase in gather rate.
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 11-01-08 05:29 AM ET (US)     31 / 47       
Full list of differences between docs, and AoE vs RoR:

Assyrian
Horse Archer/HHA/Chariot Archer RoF +36.4%, quotes 40%
Foot Archers RoF + 27.3%, quotes 40%
Villager Speed +26.7% on AoE, or +18.2% for RoR, quotes 30%

Babylonian
Priest Rejuvenation Rate +37.5%, quotes 30%
Stone Miner W/R +44.4%, quotes 30%

Choson
Priest Cost –32.0%, quotes –30%

Egyptian
Gold Miner W/R +44.4%, quotes 20%

Greek
Academy Unit Speed +33.3%, quotes 30%
Scout Ship/War Galley/Trireme Speed +17.1%, quotes 30%
Catapult Trireme/Juggernaught Speed +22.2%, quotes 30%

Minoan
Farm Food +24.0%, quotes 25%

Persian
Hunter W/R +66.7%, quotes 30%
War Elephant/Elephant Archer Speed +55.6% on AoE, includes AE on RoR, quotes 50%
Trireme RoF +27.8%, quotes 50%
Farm Food –30% on AoE, removed on RoR

Phoenician
Catapult Trireme/Juggernaught RoF +42%, quotes 65%
Woodcutter W/R +14.5% (+54.5% .dat minus 40.0% .exe) on AoE, (+36.4% .dat for RoR, so could be 16.4% after unknown exe changes)

Sumerian
Siege RoF +30%, quotes 50%
No merchant ship on AoE, enabled on RoR

Yamato
Fishing Boat HP +33%, quotes 30%
Villager Speed +26.7% on AoE, or +18.2% for RoR, quotes 30%

Carthaginian
Light Transport Speed + 39.0%, quotes 30%
Heavy Transport Speed +42.9%, quotes 30%

Macedonian
Villager LOS +2 (undocumented?)
Fish/Trade/Transport Boat LOS +2 (undocumented?)
Cannot see 4 times more resistance to priests in unique techs

Palmyran
Fisherman W/R +33.3%, should be 20%
Forager/Hunter/Stone/Gold W/R +44.4%, should be 20%
Woodcutter W/R +36.4%, should be 20%
Farm W/R +50% (note the W/R bonus is applied to the building and not the farmer itself), should apply to farmer!! And be 20%
Cannot see double gold trade in unique techs

Roman
Sword RoF +33.3%, should be 30%

Other
Fisherman W/R in AoE = 0.8, RoR = 0.6
Fanaticism Tech: Rejuvenation Rate +75%, quotes +50%
Jihad Tech: Villager Attack +7, Carriage –8, HP +40, Speed +0.3, all undocumented?
Wheel Tech: Villager Speed +63.6%, AoE Yamato/Assyrian +46.7%, RoR Yamato/Assyrian +53.8% - all way above quoted benefit!
Coinage Tech: +25.0% to civ header rather than gold miners…need to investigate, possible effect is that gold miners produce additional gold from gold mines!
Artisanship Tech: Woodcutter W/R +0.2 (undocumented?), Elephant Archer, Horse Archer/HHA, Chariot Archer units have increased range but not LOS
Alchemy Tech: RoR includes Watch/Sentry/Guard Towers, and Ballista/Helepolis no longer have +1 melee/normal damage but +1 pierce damage)
Phalanx Upgrade: Does not register as a tech researched (via achievements:technologies)
Woodcutting Tech: Woodcutter W/R +0.2 (undocumented?)
Gold Mining Tech: Gold Miner W/R +0.3 (undocumented?)
Stone Mining Tech: Stone Miner W/R +0.3 (undocumented?)
Craftsmanship Tech: Woodcutter W/R +0.2 (undocumented?)
Siegecraft Tech: Stone Miner W/R +0.3, Carriage +3 (undocumented?)
Architecture Tech: Builders W/R +50%, quotes build time reduced by 33%
Aristocracy Tech: Speed +27.8% (20.8% for Greek), quotes 25%
Scout LOS increases by 2 with each upgrade (Tool, Bronze and Iron)


Okay, some differences can be dismissed due to rounding, some may need documenting and the rest need some form of change (whether this is a documente change to show true value or technical change to show documented value).

Suppy - the scout having auto-attack has been discussed by IGZ players, so I have listed it as a possiblity, although it depends on how players will use the unit. With the units huge LOS and fast speed it could be a problem constantly retasking the scout to "keep it out of trouble". Although, I think that by toning down the "search" attribute the unit will not attack everything within its LOS, but possibly units only close by.

IGZ players will come up with completely different change requests, and have already dismissed 99% of the problems I have listed. Most changes are around balancing the civs (such as making Greeks, Persians etc stronger in RM and Hittite slightly weaker in Iron etc).


I'm working on a different problems list - which will centralise on the strats available for each civ, which I will post here and then send off to IGZ.

The problems I have listed so far will be fixed, and will probably not effect the top RM/DM player games. For example, making walls quicker to build, instant impies and short sword in bronze, farming/hunting work rate...
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 11-01-08 08:34 AM ET (US)     32 / 47       
You can see the bad math skills of the developers there, and they didn't know or bother about the difference between percentages and absolute increases.
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 11-01-08 01:47 PM ET (US)     33 / 47       

I actually work as a software tester, and these problems are very very common! It isn't necessarily the designers fault as they make recommendations, and changes upon testing. It looks like the problem lies with the developers who have applied all % changes (as quoted in documentation" as raw value increases/decreases). If for example the designer says increase villagers speed by 30%, the developers would implement this via the genie.dat file by calculating the actual change in a raw value and adding this value. Problem = what if at a later date the actual raw villager speed is changed? The calculated increase is no longer correct!

Not all % increases are implemented as raw values, so it may be that the genie engine evolved throughout the development. Initially the genie.dat tech effect table could only accept adding/subtracting attribute values but at a later date the engine evolved to accept multiplication.

The lack of regression testing and impact analysis are probably the main reasons behind what we see today!
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 11-01-08 02:06 PM ET (US)     34 / 47       
That's a valid point. My bad.
This subject has been handled before, btw. At that time one of the few things that stood the test was Astrology, which really gives a 30% increase in the probabitiy that a conversion attempt will succeed. Most of the others or all others were raw data instead of percentages.
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 11-01-08 02:58 PM ET (US)     35 / 47       

Yes, I believe I got my head around the astology in the end!

Personally, I believe that the differences between AoE and RoR should be closed (fishing rates etc) and all %inc/decreases (as quoted) should be implemented into the genie data file.

The first part is easy - probably best to use the RoR values (assyrian and yamato will be slightly slower..).

The second part is more difficult. In some cases the documented % diff should change and in others the technical % diff should change.

For example, the Palmyran work rates are way above the quoted bonus, but as we all should guess - making these w/r = +20% will make the Palymran even slower. So in this case change the documentation to +40% and then follow this up in the genie.dat file...
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 11-02-08 10:35 AM ET (US)     36 / 47       
Ok if you can make the scout attack atumatically the units within, let's say 3 range away, that could be nice, because as you've pointed out, if it attacks everything within his LOS that could be, often, suicide.
Vancepwns
Clubman
posted 07-15-09 02:42 PM ET (US)     37 / 47       
Well Rasteve I think all the changes(exept 5,6 and 10 are good and I've been watching this for a while you should do them eager to try it. =D
jordanthejq12
Clubman
posted 07-15-09 08:01 PM ET (US)     38 / 47       
Rise of Rome patch 1.0...what are we up to? Aha! Age of Empires: The Rise of Rome Expansion patch 2.0a!
Just one suggestion: How about making Tool Age units more effective in Bronze and beyond?

"Preparation is not prevention. Just because you know what's coming does not mean you can stop it."
--Me

Something to remember: always know where you're going, but never forget where you came from.

The Age of Chivalry is upon us! Visit the only wiki devoted exclusively to Aoc:H by clicking on the preceding link. Oh yeah, and it works with the HD edition, too--just make sure to get this first.
The Dark Archer
HG Alumnus
posted 07-15-09 09:10 PM ET (US)     39 / 47       
Why do people feel that they need to raise old topics.

The Dark Archer

"Try not to become a man of success but rather to become a man of value." - Albert Einstein
"I once met a girl who looked like a camel" - Rasteve
Death of the Morads | AoEH Design Series II | Out From the Cliffs
Kingor
Clubman
posted 07-16-09 03:26 AM ET (US)     40 / 47       
1- Fix crashes when computer reach higher population level. You must allow single player mode at 200 or 255 population with full stability (not crash)

2-Try to complexify the AI script system , introducing conditions-effects mode, like ao2. So the computer can react properly at some situations , and not play with the same strategy.

3-Fix computer player in multiplayer mode, he builds slowly and is diferent of single player.

I hope you can fix this 3 points ,it would be excellent.
volume
Clubman
posted 07-16-09 07:20 AM ET (US)     41 / 47       
although this may not be absolutely realistic but how about since resources especially stone is scarce, make trade boat and merchant ship trade (nothing) for wood, food, gold and stone? just like aok and aom where you get however much resources depending on how far the trade(dock) is to your drop off point(your dock).

it is just simply a matter of get free infinite resources; what you need is another players dock, a trade vessel(which is perhaps especially rarely used in RM and DM) and make the round trip to it and back(and of course water).

i see it unnecessary to ditch resources at a foreign dock for gold and you dont have to make them actually trade off resources adding or deducting from yours or theirs stockpile respectively(absolute realistic)

oh btw there is difference in aoe and ror with egyptian civ

aoe egyptian has iron shield! although it cannot be researched in aoe unless you start at iron age while ror egyptian iron shield is disabled.

add: there are also techs that add something by percentage as a problem for example: nobility adding 15% hitpoints does not always add 15% usually coming up including a point shortchanged

[This message has been edited by volume (edited 07-18-2009 @ 11:39 AM).]

MrCheeze
Clubman
posted 07-16-09 10:41 AM ET (US)     42 / 47       
That's called a bug.

"Mrcheeze your genius but not quite a Gumble-kind-of genius." - Gumble
"We're all friendly here except MrCheeze but he means well" - Ninetales (Not exact words)
"Gumble has no words for you, you’re boring now. -underrated- that’s a joke, Gumble is OVERSTATED." - Gumble
(Not even sure what he was saying there)
Nacht Jaeger
Clubman
(id: RCM7525)
posted 07-16-09 11:48 AM ET (US)     43 / 47       
Just to let you guys know, Rasteve has a way of popping in and out of the radar screen. He may show up again, he may not. But can we refrain from bumping old threads in the future?

Nacht Jaeger - Ex AoEH Angel
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 07-16-09 07:03 PM ET (US)     44 / 47       
Dear RCM, IMO is better to bump an already existing therad isntead of opening a new one about the same topic, why do you think it isn't?
The Dark Archer
HG Alumnus
posted 07-17-09 08:48 PM ET (US)     45 / 47       
In this case there was no need to bump the old thread. Also old threads can have a lot of people posting in them that aren't regular anymore or whose information has become outdated somehow which can lead to confusion.

The Dark Archer

"Try not to become a man of success but rather to become a man of value." - Albert Einstein
"I once met a girl who looked like a camel" - Rasteve
Death of the Morads | AoEH Design Series II | Out From the Cliffs
irwinner
Clubman
posted 07-17-09 09:49 PM ET (US)     46 / 47       
I believe i found his youtube account, but he hasn't logged in for 4 months! I've sent him a pm to see if i can get him back on board. I hope so because it looks like he can do the stuff, just needs a little guidance with what needs changing. i will let you know if he gets back to me....

btw the problem with mods is that the initial ideas are good but soon enough focus is lost as people lose interest.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 07-18-09 04:15 PM ET (US)     47 / 47       
I see, TDA. About rasteve, he really seemed to be committed to the couse and i hope he is still inetersted in his projects.
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