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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Rasteve announces... AoE.R: Age of Empires Realism Patch
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Topic Subject:Rasteve announces... AoE.R: Age of Empires Realism Patch
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Rasteve
Clubman
posted 10-21-08 09:49 AM ET (US)         
Important notice

I have been working on 2 projects:

AoE.Realism - to improve the realism of the game
AoE Balancing Patch - to improve the balance of the the game

In terms of the AoE.Realism, the changes proposed (so far) make the game completely different (with a new selection of civs, units, ages etc). The changes are parallel with the Dawn of Man project I have been working on. Therefore I will change my scope to 2 different projects, with this thread dedicated to:

AoE.R
Age of Empires Realism Patch

Objectives
Improve the game balance (so that all civs are playable in DM or RM)
Improve the realism (so that the attributes of units and civs are more realistic)
Maintain the fundamental rules and content of the original game (no new units, techs or buildings)
Provide solutions to as many issues as possible (single player campaign objectives, ai issues etc)

Problems

1.Camel Rider
RoR Specific
RM Games
Camel Rider > Cavalry, therefore cav civs such as Yamato are less favourable. Also, cav units are less likely to be trained (as camel own cav), therefore less likely to see Heavy Cavalry and Cataphract units.

Solution:
Cavalry Class +1 Pierce Armour
Camel Rider removed from Hittite Tech Tree
Camel Rider removed from Shang Tech Tree

2.Cataphract
AoE/RoR
RM Games
Arguably the least used of the super units, as high cost does not really justify the upgrade. Also, RoRs introduction of the Camel Rider makes Cataphract even more rare.

Possible Solutions:
Reduce cost of upgrade
Increase cataphract pierce armor, or/and other attributes to justify cost

3.Swordsmen
AoE/RoR
RM Games
Rarely used due to a number of reasons: need to research 4 upgrades including initial short sword, easily mowed down by archers and even cavalry have a bonus against them.

Possible Solutions:
Increase swordsman speed
Reduce swordsman train time
Make Short Sword automatically available in Bronze
Reduce cost

4.Siege
AoE/RoR
RM/DM Games
Seem to be used as a unit killer rather than staging a siege (RM) and during DM their effectiveness is so good it is common to see players churn out as many heavy cats and heles as possible.

Possible Solutions:
Decrease HP
Decrease RoF
Increase attack points
Increase minimum range
Increase siege pierce armor
Reduce accuracy

5.Scythe Chariot

6.Priests

7.Walls
AoE/RoR
RM Games
The time it takes to build does not compare to how easily these come down.

Possible Solutions:
Increase HP
Decrease build time
Add siege armor (can be done via dat editing)

8.Food Gathering
AoE/RoR
RM
Hunting is very poor in the game, and is not really part of anyones strategy. Adding efficiency would make the game more realistic (note Stone Age civs would hunt).

Possible Solutions:
Increase hunter carry capacity
Increase hunter work rate

9.Farming
AoE/RoR
RM
Farming methods are very slow/inefficient at gathering food (compared to foraging and shore fishing). Rates do not increase through the ages, despite technological advances.

Possible Solutions:
Farm techs include farmer work rate increases
Farmer work rates generally increased
Farm food increased
Farm cost reduced

10.Houses

11.Horse Archers
AoE/RoR
RM/DM
Too hard to catch due to their speed and too good at bring down opponents. The best counter is siege, but if siege not available then you don’t have a fair chance.

Possible Solutions:
Reduce Speed
Reduce Attack Points
Reduce RoF
Reduce accuracy
Increase cost

12.Calculations
AoE/RoR
General
Game documentation gives certain facts about the game, including civ bonuses and tech boosts in percentages. Actual calculations show that these stated % are false.

Possible solutions:
Change documentation
Apply documented values

13.RM Balance
AoE/RoR
RM
During RM games the best civs to choose are Shang, Yamato (AoE), Phoenician or Assyrian. These are all rushing civs. There is no really good turtling civ to block tool rushes, or combat bronze rushes. RM games are too predictable with players choosing one of the fast civs and then trying to out rush opponent. How do you counter a tool rush? Run or spread out.

Possible Solutions:
Group civs into “rush” and “turtle” civs and then apply bonuses etc to make them more viable in RM game

14.DM Balance
AoE/RoR
DM
During DM games the best civs are Choson and Hittite. Choson can be a good turtling civ with high range ballista towers, and Hittite can be a good rushing civ with nearly every iron age unit available.

Possible Solutions:
Group civs into “rush” and “turtle” civs and then apply bonuses etc to make them more viable in DM game

15.Help File
AoE/RoR
General
Help file needs updating for AoE changes and to include RoR content.

Possible Solutions:
Create new help file
Edit current help file

16.Improved Bowmen
AoE/RoR
RM
If Short Swordsman is made instantly available in Bronze Age (part of solution to issue 3) then improved bowman should follow!

Possible Solutions:
Make Impies instantly available in Bronze

17.US Language Unit Names
AoE/RoR
General
Academy unit names for heavy infantry = Hoplite (Greek specific), Phalanx (Greek formation, unit should be Phalangite) and Centurion (firstly, this is a commander of approx 100 infantry, secondly, its melee weapon was the sword) and the Helepolis graphic is a repeating ballista when the actual helepolis was a siege tower.

Possible Solutions:
Create new language.dll file with more realistic unit names


Next Stage
We need to identify all problems with the game, and then determine the best solution.

Notes on solutions:
Must solve the problem
Must not create another problem
If the problem is RoR only, the solution must be RoR only etc
Must stick to the objectives (realism, balance and without adding anything new)

[This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 10-24-2008 @ 06:42 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 10-21-08 10:56 AM ET (US)     1 / 47       
Some of these problems seem pretty easy to solve, others very hard... here's my try to solutions:
1. This probably the hardest one, decreasing the camels power against cavalry would make them nearly useless...
2. Decrease cost, solve #1.
3. All barracks units (not slinger) would need a slight speed increase to take down archers, otherwise I think they're fine.
4. decreasing hitpoints, possibly rate of fire would be most realistic.
5. no, We need the scythes, they're the only non- gold dependdant Iron age unit. The low hitpoints are enough of a weakness for me...
6. Not sure... Maybe giving all Iron age unit a slight bonus to resistance?
7. Thats true, walls should be a lot harder to destroy... Increase HP!
8. Increasing hunter Capacity would be fine with me, gather rate doesn't do much since it is often a long way between the killed gazelles and the drop point.
9. increasing the gether rate with farming technologies would be fine here.
10. is that really a problem?`
11. I think the problem tells the solution.

Ok, It seems like I actually took most of the solutions from you...

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 10-21-08 11:37 AM ET (US)     2 / 47       
1. I agree, this is a difficult one. Previously I looked at amending the cav units themselves, leaving the camel attributes as previous. I have no problem with the cav being countered by camel, but as camel units are created in RM games, the player will not suddenly invest in cav units (upgrades/techs).

Possible solutions are to increase cav speed vs camel (can flee easier), slightly more pierce armor vs archers (make them more of a anti-archer unit, which currently they are not - tends to be siege!).

2. Yes, an obvious solution is to decrease upgrade cost, and allow cataphracts to benefit from #1

3. We can bring short sword tech as automatic in bronze age, and therefore only have 3 upgrades to legion. We can also balance cost and train time (very small changes), and possibly increase speed slightly (but not to make them faster than villagers).

4. Yes, decrease hp and rof, but re-balance with higher damage. We could also increase the minimum attack distance slightly.

5. My problem is the effective force you can put together with scythe vs its cost (food and wood easy to collect), so I was thinking of slightly reducing its attributes.

6. Yes, possibly increase resistance across units, or possibly look at slight changes to tech effects.

7. Quite obvious really, increasing HP will make walls more viable.

8. Previously I looked at 20 carriage but I don't think that this was well received as it stands greatly above other resource carraige capacities (however testing shows hunting with 20 carraige does not massively alter the game, only slight changes in tool times with extensive micromanagement).

9. Slight increases with each tech is probably the best way to improve farming efficiency.

10. It always seemed odd to get to 48 and build 1 more house to read 50. The only possible solutions I can think of are to change house pop to 5 or modify the pop limit to 80.

11. Yes, slight decrease in speed, rof and attack points is probably the best way to go.
Ninetails
AoEH MMC Winner
(id: TailSpray)
posted 10-21-08 11:49 AM ET (US)     3 / 47       
Scythe Chariots: Definately weak enough already, I've had whole armies of them squashed. Add pierce armor, decrease hack armor.

Cataphracts: Lower the research cost and give them more pierce armor to make them stronger vs. archers and siege.

Swordsmen: Cheaper upgrade, cost less food. If infantry is meant to be cheap cannon fodder that everything can beat then let's actually make it cheap. Also train faster. Reduce choson and roman bonuses.

Siege: Double reload time, less area damage for cats and hcats. Hele reload time less drastically improved.

Priests: Greater chance of conversion, more HP, less range. Keep the high los? A priest can't talk to someone until they're close enough to hear, can they?
Or
Decrease priest LOS (keep range higher than LOS) so that they are dependant on other units around them. That way you can't just have a huge army of priests that don't need protection.

Walls: Double HP, build faster, higher armor vs. non siege, higher siege armor compared to other buildings.

Horse Archers: Decrease attack success to 80% for increased realism (hard to aim on horseback) and effictavely reducing their damage by 20%. Keep the speed. Lower attack rate for increased realism.

Hunting: Increase gather rate, increase hunter range by 1.

Farming: Increase gather rate, make farms cheaper or give them more food. Make rate increase with farming upgrades.

Houses: Increase pop to 5, make them take longer to construct, possibly even less HP. The idea is to make raids upon housing more effective.

Camels: Less HP or higher cost. Cav bonus +1 hack damage -2. Weahness vs. infantry?

Edit: Give siege less HP, +3 pierce armor.

| The Slave Pits (4.8) MMC 1st Place | The Fate of Inraya Teaser (4.5) | The Parting Gift | Computer Wars Pack |
"Never experienced any of his revolutionary scenarios, but dang if he isn't charismatic when he speaks!" -Aro
Voted AoEH's Most Helpful Forumer 2009!

Ninetails, of all the forumers you seen to have the inabillity to feel hate against your fellow man. A noble trait, treasure it. -Gumble

[This message has been edited by TailSpray (edited 10-21-2008 @ 11:57 AM).]

peter
HG Alumnus
posted 10-21-08 01:35 PM ET (US)     4 / 47       
1. toughie. I bet ya that any solution that you come up with will prove to be the start of a new problem if only the patch will be played by a massive number of people. Soon enough somebody will think of something that all playtesters overlooked.

2. Instead of just making them cheaper, make them more powerful. Their bonus is a laugh. Give them a real hit point, attack strength or speed boost (one of them, not all) to make the upgrade worthwhile.

3. Disadvantage of faster swordsmen is that they will get villagers faster as well.

4. Make siege less powerful and adjust the damage to buildings and accuracy against moving targets (if possible, there again, chances are that the building damage is in the exe, in that case please ignore my suggestion).

5. Fact is I think they're pretty weak for super units and they get converted all the time, don't ask me how it's possible. Don't have a hint here, sorry.

6. It's not realistic, but it's fun!!

7. Reduce building time, if possible, and give more hit points.

8. Agreed.

9. The low pop cap kills realism here, the Neolithic also meant a population explosion, for instance in Japan after the invention of pottery for cooking. You can't mimic that here, especially if you give hunting a boost.

10. Not a biggie, I think. The possibility of getting housed keeps you sharp. Once again, there are limits to how much realism you can introduce here.

11. Make them more expensive, - 1 attack strength, less rof but same range.

12. Correct. Change the &#^$% documentation.

Hope this helps.
MrCheeze
Clubman
posted 10-21-08 05:01 PM ET (US)     5 / 47       
I don't MP, but just making walls a lot faster to build should be enough.

EDIT: Also, camels vulnerable to swords? Maybe?

"Mrcheeze your genius but not quite a Gumble-kind-of genius." - Gumble
"We're all friendly here except MrCheeze but he means well" - Ninetales (Not exact words)
"Gumble has no words for you, you’re boring now. -underrated- that’s a joke, Gumble is OVERSTATED." - Gumble
(Not even sure what he was saying there)

[This message has been edited by MrCheeze (edited 10-21-2008 @ 06:42 PM).]

Rasteve
Clubman
posted 10-21-08 07:05 PM ET (US)     6 / 47       

Okay, I will look through solutions and make a proposal, then create a patch.

BTW - I have fired and email to IGZ to ask if they wish to test, provide feedback and support the patch, so I will let you know how this goes.

If you know any further problems, or have solutions to any prob mentioned post them here.

Thanks
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 10-21-08 10:11 PM ET (US)     7 / 47       
1. I have never played MP RM AoE/RoR games so i have no idea about it. Anyway i find that, in DM at least, that camels aren't as useful Cats and HHAs can defeat then easily.

2.Reduce upgrade cost.

3. Increase speed or piercing armor, but not that much. The cavalry bonus is on the other hand necessary. The cavalry is already rarely used because of camels so punishing them in that way seems unnecesary.

4.indeed there's Siege unit abuse i propose reducing accuracy significantly so they could be only really useful agains massed enemies still, or fighting and buildings.

5. I see no problem with the. Except the fact that some civs don't have them and that makes e'm more gold dependent.

6.Wololo. Hayo! Just kidding. but seriously, they are already expensive so wahy to cut their wings. The egyptians and Babylonians need them in late Iron.

7. Increase HP at least 4 times. Grant them piercing armor (offtopic: gates could be useful and they had 'em thousands of years ago).

8. Improve hunting gather rate.

9.Increase farm yield (infinite!!!...lol just kidding, but if used appropritely they would last for much longer time). Also don't punish food gathering rates that hard with Jihad.

10. No problem with houses. I like to have lots of houses.

11. Certainly. BUT: I won't change speed because they are light cavalry, but maybe reduce attack (-2) and -1 range.

12. must check it but i assume they require a revision.
Ninetails
AoEH MMC Winner
(id: TailSpray)
posted 10-22-08 09:59 AM ET (US)     8 / 47       
Get rid of the Jihad reduced resource carriage entirely.

| The Slave Pits (4.8) MMC 1st Place | The Fate of Inraya Teaser (4.5) | The Parting Gift | Computer Wars Pack |
"Never experienced any of his revolutionary scenarios, but dang if he isn't charismatic when he speaks!" -Aro
Voted AoEH's Most Helpful Forumer 2009!

Ninetails, of all the forumers you seen to have the inabillity to feel hate against your fellow man. A noble trait, treasure it. -Gumble
Nacht Jaeger
Clubman
(id: RCM7525)
posted 10-22-08 10:23 AM ET (US)     9 / 47       
Why do that? The effect needs to be reduced, but then anybody with Jihad has a big advantage over anybody who doesn't.

Nacht Jaeger - Ex AoEH Angel
Ninetails
AoEH MMC Winner
(id: TailSpray)
posted 10-22-08 10:35 AM ET (US)     10 / 47       
I don't see why, villagers still have low HP and no armor, the only thing they can do is rip apart walls and towers with siegecraft. And it halv makes them a anti priest weapon in a desperate situation.

| The Slave Pits (4.8) MMC 1st Place | The Fate of Inraya Teaser (4.5) | The Parting Gift | Computer Wars Pack |
"Never experienced any of his revolutionary scenarios, but dang if he isn't charismatic when he speaks!" -Aro
Voted AoEH's Most Helpful Forumer 2009!

Ninetails, of all the forumers you seen to have the inabillity to feel hate against your fellow man. A noble trait, treasure it. -Gumble
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 10-22-08 11:12 AM ET (US)     11 / 47       
4. I forgot that some units seem to have their hit points related to the attack strength of siege - all mounted units, except eles and camels(?), have multiples of 50 or 60 hps, and the nobility research makes them resistant to one more hit, also villies with Jihad have just enough hp's to survive one hit from a catapult. If you increase the attack strength of STs and cats, you'll have to do something about the hp balance too.
Ninetails
AoEH MMC Winner
(id: TailSpray)
posted 10-22-08 02:24 PM ET (US)     12 / 47       
I think the idea is that a big rock or ballista bolt will kill nearly anyone, but decreasing the accuracy and fire rate will make it less likely that they will be hit.

| The Slave Pits (4.8) MMC 1st Place | The Fate of Inraya Teaser (4.5) | The Parting Gift | Computer Wars Pack |
"Never experienced any of his revolutionary scenarios, but dang if he isn't charismatic when he speaks!" -Aro
Voted AoEH's Most Helpful Forumer 2009!

Ninetails, of all the forumers you seen to have the inabillity to feel hate against your fellow man. A noble trait, treasure it. -Gumble
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 10-22-08 03:06 PM ET (US)     13 / 47       
I may take down 5, 6 and 10 - just waiting for IGZ to take a look
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 10-22-08 08:18 PM ET (US)     14 / 47       
Okay, some new problems and a selection of possible solutions.

Note on solutions: I could use one or more of the stated, and the actual change can very from small to very significant.


I have added RM and DM problems and would like to propose the following:

All civs fit into 2 types:

Rush civ - highly aggressive and fast attacking civ
Turtle civ - highly defensive and attempt to soak up enemy attacks

Both types are a counter of the other.

A civ can be a turtle civ for RM games (builds walls and towers during tool/bronze) or rush (tool and bronze rush). A civ can also be a turtle civ during DM (walls, towers etc with weaker/slower attacks) or a rush civ during DM (fast super units)
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 10-22-08 08:48 PM ET (US)     15 / 47       
You forget about boomers, Rasteve, the ones who enjoy to research and an equilibrated defense attack ratio (like Carthaginians).
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 10-22-08 09:13 PM ET (US)     16 / 47       
I have always considered booming as an extension of turtling. In my thinking:

Rush
Tool Blitz
Tool Rush, stay in Tool
Tool Rush, move to Bronze
Bronze Rush

In these strategies you are forever attacking the enemy on their ground. In all games (not just AoE) this is probably the most successful strat when executed correctly (fast and efficient).

Turtle
Walling
Booming

If you don't boom when walling you are asking for trouble. You have limited your ability to gather resources, and are a sitting duck for aggressive players.

If you boom, your walls/towers soak up damage while you build up a counter.

At the moment, these strats are not very effective as walls come down too quickly and you have no gates. Obviously adding gates is beyond my capabilities but adding something to walls would help.


In DM games I have found that Choson usually win because of their towers make it near impossible to defeat. I would consider these as a turtling civ, as they have a particular good defense.

[This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 10-22-2008 @ 09:16 PM).]

MrCheeze
Clubman
posted 10-22-08 09:15 PM ET (US)     17 / 47       
I say, keep 5 (iron units needing gold is good, that's what trading is for), get rid of 10 (too hard to rebalance if changed), and have no idea about 6.

"Mrcheeze your genius but not quite a Gumble-kind-of genius." - Gumble
"We're all friendly here except MrCheeze but he means well" - Ninetales (Not exact words)
"Gumble has no words for you, you’re boring now. -underrated- that’s a joke, Gumble is OVERSTATED." - Gumble
(Not even sure what he was saying there)
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 10-23-08 05:21 AM ET (US)     18 / 47       

Spotlight

13.RM Balance
AoE/RoR
RM
During RM games the best civs to choose are Shang, Yamato (AoE), Phoenician or Assyrian. These are all rushing civs. There is no really good turtling civ to block tool rushes, or combat bronze rushes. RM games are too predictable with players choosing one of the fast civs and then trying to out rush opponent. How do you counter a tool rush? Run or spread out.

Possible Solutions:
Group civs into “rush” and “turtle” civs and then apply bonuses etc to make them more viable in RM game



A rushing civ is any civ that can Tool Rush or Bronze Rush quicker than other civs. A turtling civ is any civ that is slower at completing a Tool or Bronze Rush. This is not to say civs such as Greeks cannot Rush, just that if you playing against someone like Shang you are very likely going to be out-rushed.


Rush
Assyrian - tool bow/bronze rush
Phoenician - bronze rush and/or sea domination
Shang - tool/bronze rush
Yamato - tool scout rush/bronze cav rush
Palmyran - bronze camel rush
Roman - tool/bronze rush

Turtle
Babylonian - vey strong walls/towers
Choson - +2 tower range
Egyptian - chariot/priest counter-attacks
Greek - nothing really threatening until Iron Age
Hittite - can threaten early on but easily out-rushed by the fast civs
Minoan - good economy can support compies counter attack
Persian - may fall due to poor economy, but the hunting bonus is not sufficient to be considered a fast civ (and do not have the wheel)
Sumerian - good farm and siege, sit out and wait until later ages
Carthaginian - need to hold out until Iron Age
Macedonian - need to hold out until late Bronze


4 AoE, 2 RoR rushing civs
8 AoE, 2 RoR turtling civs

Previously, we have seen solutions to water down the rushing capabilities of the fast 4 - but I think we need to add a little something to a couple of other civs.

Persian - hunting changes + hunting bonus should make these another fast civ

Arguably Minoan could have a good bronze time via FB, and with impies instantly available could get together a decent bronze impie rush. The current minoan civ bonuses state a +2 range for compies, but if this was added to impies too Minoan could be considered as a rush civ?


Any thoughts?
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 10-23-08 06:44 AM ET (US)     19 / 47       
I wouldn't call Palmy a rush civ, unless plenty of food is found very quickly. You can give Persia any hunting bonus, but as long as many maps have poor hunting (all game far away from your base) it won't make them a consistently fast civ. Minos and FBs are a dangerous subject here - see wedsaz' infamous Minoan fastboom and the many debates about it. The biggest problem with any FB strategy is that FBs are slow food gatherers. It will only work for a rush if you have plenty of fish near your docks. I see fishing as a long-term food source, it's cheaper than farms if you can keep your FBs healthy. But then I'm not an online player.
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 10-23-08 07:13 AM ET (US)     20 / 47       

Palmyrans - yes you are right, I keep making this mistake. One small change any they could be another rush civ (either villager cost = 65 or work rate = 50%).

Persians - true, with hunting carraige changed to 20, and bonus +3 plus increased work rate, if you have good start then you will complete with Shang etc for tool/bronze times. We know the Persian market is near-useless, but giving the Persian the disadvantage of lower farm productivity is going too far!!!

Minoan - just read the fastboom, and I can see the risk. But, if impies upgrade is free then you can shave a little time off attack time. Also, if the civ bonus also applies to impies, you can afford to send first batch of units in without compie upgrade.


This will result in 8 "rush" civs and 8 "turtle" civs.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 10-23-08 12:48 PM ET (US)     21 / 47       
Humm nice observation. Is interesting how, even though Romans And Carthas have almost the same tech and unit tree up to bronze, the Roman advantages, some of which apply from stone age (reduced building cost), make them rushers. But at least Carthas have camels.
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 10-24-08 06:38 PM ET (US)     22 / 47       


Okay, firstly I will solve problem 1:

1.Camel Rider
RoR Specific
RM Games
Camel Rider > Cavalry, therefore cav civs such as Yamato are less favourable. Also, cav units are less likely to be trained (as camel own cav), therefore less likely to see Heavy Cavalry and Cataphract units.

Possible Solutions:
Cav attributes increased (speed, pierce armor)
Camel cost increased
Camel HP decreased
Camel weak vs infantry
Remove camel from several civ tech trees (less common)

Design
Cavalry class has +1 pierce armor
Camel removed from Hittite and Shang civs

Should make cavalry slightly better vs impies/compies/CA
Should make Yamato vs Shang/Hittite more favourable in RM games
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 10-24-08 09:06 PM ET (US)     23 / 47       

Good news, I'm starting to get feedback from IGZ. They have been a bit slow but some of the players are going to get the top RM/DM players to comment with their thoughts. Just what we need! I mean, they can provide playing experience which is beyond my own experience. For example, I always thought people selected one of the fast civs for RM games, but this is not the case, as some prefer Hittite.

I guess I didn't consider that tool rushes are only devastating on smaller maps, and something like large or gigantic makes the rush easily defendable. Also, on larger maps even though tool rushing and bronze rushing can tip the balance in your favour, things change in the late bronze age/iron age. I didn't really consider this for RM games.

I will still press ahead with putting together the solutions we have so far, as I feel they are still valid. I'm getting feedback that in fact these are not the biggest problems, it is more to do with the dominance of Choson, Hittite etc and how best to balance the civs.

Hopefully we get IGZ on board for playtesting, therefore people here can have a go as well as the top IGZ players providing continued feedback.
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 10-25-08 02:47 PM ET (US)     24 / 47       

Problem 2:

2.Cataphract
AoE/RoR
RM Games
Arguably the least used of the super units, as high cost does not really justify the upgrade. Also, RoRs introduction of the Camel Rider makes Cataphract even more rare.

Possible Solutions:
Reduce cost of upgrade
Increase cataphract pierce armor, or/and other attributes to justify cost

Design
Solution to Problem 1 (+1 Pierce Armor)
Cataphract Upgrade = 1800/800



Current Super Unit upgrade costs:
Legion = 1400/600
HHA = 1750/800
Cat = 2000/850
Jug = 2000/900
HCat = 1800/900
Hele = 1500/1000
Cent = 1800/700
AE = 1000/1200
Scythe = 1200/800
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 10-27-08 01:51 PM ET (US)     25 / 47       
So someone, has tested the units with changed attributes?
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