You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
Moderated by Suppiluliuma, PhatFish, Fisk, EpiC_Anonymous, Epd999

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.36 replies
Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Roman Empire
Bottom
Topic Subject:Roman Empire
« Previous Page  1 2  Next Page »
Julius
Clubman
posted 05-18-01 06:57 PM ET (US)         
Does anyone have any info about the interactions between the Christians and the Romans? I came up with a good idea for a scenario and i was wondering if anyone has some info about how exactly the Romans treated the Christians. I know they were persecuted and fed to the lions in the colosseum and crucified, but does anyone know what else they were forced to do and what brought this all around? If anyone has the time, could you please give me the most background info on the roman empire and the Christians? Thanks alot.
AuthorReplies:
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 05-18-01 07:02 PM ET (US)     1 / 36       
Well, one thing I can remember is they tried to force them to sacifice for the welfare of the emperor. Also they were burned alive and there was a lot more. There's not much in that for a scn though - the Christians didn't become powerful in a military sense for a very long time.
Julius
Clubman
posted 05-18-01 07:05 PM ET (US)     2 / 36       
Actually peter, i know there isnt much for a scenario but i figured id just do one for fun...i was going to elaborate a little to make it more interesting. I also need the info for a project i need to do for Global Studies. Thanks for your time.
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 05-18-01 07:28 PM ET (US)     3 / 36       
Well, there are some articles about the attitide of the roman government towards the Christians - there's even a letter by pliny to emperor Trajan and trjan's reply about the probs relating to Christians - for isntance if Pliny, who was a governor, should take anonymous accusations seriously (remember that kind of thing is getting rather popular now related to software stuff) - Trjan replied that they were living in a civilized country and he wouldn't want posterity to criticize them for doing something like that. Since them we've detorioated quite a bit it seems.
Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 05-18-01 07:50 PM ET (US)     4 / 36       
You could place a bunch of lions in the editor and have 'em thrown to them ;-)

Sorry.


My Karma ran over my Dogma

AoEH | EEH | RoNH | IndividualsCAN

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-18-01 09:05 PM ET (US)     5 / 36       
Turning point...

Shortly before he became emperor, Constantine saw the light.

Odd coincidence that it was just before the big battle,
where having even a few fanatical christians on his side
would be a huge military advantage.

He then proceeded to make christianity the state religion,
under his control of course. Both the catholic and orthodox
churches are derived from his version of christianity,
and various other churches derived from those.

The catholic and orthodox religions' "empires" cover
roughly the same places the east and west roman empire
did, plus some colonies offshore like in the americas.
By contrast, the protestant religions tend to have
more hold in areas the roman empire didn't control long,
such as britain and germany (and their colonies).

I wonder what our favorite buddhist jew would think of that.

The Phoenix
Clubman
posted 05-20-01 11:10 AM ET (US)     6 / 36       
Buddhist Jew?
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 05-20-01 11:16 AM ET (US)     7 / 36       
The same for me - ???
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-20-01 12:06 PM ET (US)     8 / 36       
The_Phoenix, peter:
More hints? He was born around 4 BC, and spread some hippie-like peace + love teachings with his 12 friends.
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 05-20-01 01:03 PM ET (US)     9 / 36       
Still don't know whom you mean - you certainly don't mean Jesus, he wasn't a buddhist (and according to some ppl he even wasn't a Jew - lol).
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-20-01 06:08 PM ET (US)     10 / 36       
peter:
Well he was at least a half jewish (on his mother's side), and he supposedly spent several years studying at a buddhist temple in northern india (with other 'enlightened ones', I think). Also when he was very young he also went to to library of Alexandria. I don't believe he's a demigod, but it does appear he had much knowledge (especially in philosophy) from widely varied sources.
 
Some of the things he told his followers to do seem well-aimed at escaping and perhaps eventually conquering the romans, maybe the strategy would have become more apparent if he hadn't been crucified. For example, the romans were adept at conquering and holding cities; he told his friends to leave their possessions behind and live off the land, which seems an important step towards guerilla warfare (which romans couldn't really handle well). HE probably told them to stay peaceful to gain time, so he could build up his forces and secure alliances with other kingdoms before the romans could really notice.
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 05-20-01 08:30 PM ET (US)     11 / 36       
wedsaz:

Please!

If you are going to bring up the topic of Jesus.. at least know what you are talking about.

Jesus's mission in life wasn't to train followers in warfare against the Romans. The "let" the Romans crucify him BTW.

And as for the whole buddhist thing... LOL!

Maybe you ought to understand Christian teachings before you start babbling about them (like everything else).

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-20-01 09:30 PM ET (US)     12 / 36       
BlitzkreigComin:
And you'd base everything on what the romans say he said?
 
We don't know what his mission in life was. Maybe Judas (possibly his half-brother, according to archaeological evidence) simply betrayed him for a bit of money for the night's meal, and came to say "I'm sorry! I didn't know!" when he realized they were going to crucify him not just throw him in a cell for a few days and release him. Maybe afterwards Jesus realized he couldn't really prevent it, that support just wasn't there for his 'rule' when the people chose to save Barnabas rather than him, and made a quiet exit. I hear some indian magicians can make their heart stop for a time, which would be enough to fool a roman soldier into thinking he was dead so he could be moved to a crypt and a friend or two could rescue him; since the romans would think he was dead, he could go live somewhere else without being hunted for the rest of his life. The 'reincarnation' could be an accident, someone saw him come out and he tried to make the story come out such that he wouldn't be hunted.
 
Basically, it's not necessarily like the roman catholic church says it is. He did study at the library of Alexandria and at a temple in northern india, plus he was a 'geek' in matters of jewish religion at a young age (although his opinions were as hotly contested as mine are here, so surely he must have been wrong) so he was definitely smart and educated, possibly knowing enough 'tricks' for people to think he was a demigod which was common in middle-eastern politics back then. Just about every major ruler before christianity claimed to be a demigod and was believed by the gneral population long enough to gain power and use it. So why not someone who was already debating the Torah with the top priests in Israel when he was like 4, then spent a few years reading at the greatest library in the world, then went on a trip to the far east to pick up some more ideas there? He would have had more than enough knowledge to pull it off.
 
Besides, the topic of Jesus was brought up the moment christianity was mentioned. It's like trying to talk about buddhism while expecting nobody might bring up some topic concerning Buddha, or talking about WW2 and expect that nobody will mention Hitler. If you don't like it, get a life.
 
The buddhist thing does seem interesting, since if true it brings a different perspective to a lot of what he said. Like 'the road to heaven is through me' (or something like that, I'm just an atheist) if taken from the buddhist point of view, could mean it's just the path for him; your path to nirvana would be through yourself, that sort of thing. Food for thought, anyway.
Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 05-20-01 09:40 PM ET (US)     13 / 36       
Interesting but I don't buy it. He wasn't drawing any parallels there. He was saying that others could find the way through him, not themselves.

And that's exactly why he couldn't have been a Buddhist. The path in Buddhism is always through yourself, whereas Christianity and a lot of other religions require you to find it through someone else, and put your faith outside yourself (so you've always got someone to blame, lol). The two are completely opposite, for Buddha says to doubt everything and find your own light whereas Christians say believe without question.

I never bought that story about Buddha sitting in front of a wall or under a tree or whatever for seven days and becoming enlightened - By my calculations Jesus would have Tool rushed him after 3 days max ;-)


My Karma ran over my Dogma

AoEH | EEH | RoNH | IndividualsCAN

[This message has been edited by Phill Phree (edited 05-20-2001 @ 09:48 PM).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-20-01 10:01 PM ET (US)     14 / 36       
Phill Phree:
Are you talking about all christians, or catholic/orthodox (eg roman christian) and derivatives of them? Not necessarily the same thing, since the bible wasn't written by Jesus himself (in fact, I'm told he didn't write anything at all); it's just someone's interpretation of what he heard Jesus say, with his own biases applied, and even so it was rewritten several times under *roman* christian rule. It would seem advantageous for roman emperors to have people putting their beliefs in themselves (the emperors/popes), increasing their control over the population.
 
He didn't specify that the road to heaven for *them* was through him. If he had been talking to buddhists, they would have assumed he meant the road to heaven for himself was through him. There may be some examples that show his leanings towards buddhism, but I don't remember the specifics so you may want to look for information elsewhere if you're really interested.
 
LoL about tool rushing. Buddha may have actually sat under a tree thinking heavy thoughts for a week; maybe he wasn't sitting under it every minute though, like maybe he went for a snack or a leak once in a while. Authors of religions books are well-known for taking shortcuts, it makes the story more entertaining. Just imagine if they had described genesis in detail, the amount of clay tablets that would have taken up; the sheer weight would have required several mules to carry it, and then there's the other chapters, and publishing costs!
Phill Phree
Clubman
posted 05-20-01 11:50 PM ET (US)     15 / 36       
Publishing costs? You mean they didn't just get printed for free in heaven? <beg>

Orthodox schmorthodox. Oh, please. Stop trying to BS by splitting hairs, it makes no difference what frigging type they are ;-)

It is never advantageous to any leader to have his subjects put their faith in themselves. If they did they would question the need to put it anywhere else, for example in a leader. Why do you think that anyone capable of independent thought gets recruited, corrupted, converted or outcast?

No government in its right mind would encourage people to think for themselves - they couldn't be controlled if they did. The same applies to organised religion. Government is just marginally better because they don't insult your intelligence by claiming they have a god given right to do it. They have plenty of other ways to insult your intelligence instead, like George Blair and Tony 'dubya' Bush, lol.

It isn't even about religion or government really - but it does have everything to do with human nature. And that's the same everywhere on earth, regardless of culture or environment. Keep em dumb and keep em controllable and for God's sake (sic) don't tell them to believe in themselves otherwise you're out of a job ;-)


My Karma ran over my Dogma

AoEH | EEH | RoNH | IndividualsCAN

[This message has been edited by Phill Phree (edited 05-21-2001 @ 00:07 AM).]

The Phoenix
Clubman
posted 05-21-01 03:33 AM ET (US)     16 / 36       
Well, I don't really have much of an opinion on religion.........but I did read some articles about Jesus having visited India - from what I've heard, the Bible doesn't say anything about some fifteen years of his life?

Of course, nobody in the West was interested in THAT theory......how can a GREAT man (being - god - whatever)like Jesus who started a GREAT religion like Christianity have been influenced by our INFERIOR PATHETIC Indian religions? What a ridiculous idea!

peter
HG Alumnus
posted 05-21-01 08:57 AM ET (US)     17 / 36       
Wedsaz:
BS. It's true that ppl have claimed that Jesus didn't die on the cross but returned to India - but all evidence in support of that was gathered in the 20th century when lots of ppl were crazy about India - and about Jesus. Now that those ppl were crazy about India doesn't mean that Jesus was crazy about it too. In fact Jews weren't very eager to adopt ideas from alien civs by then - so even if Jews were living in India by then (quite possible) it doesn't mean that they mixed with Buddhists, Hindus or Brahmans, not to mention the Sikhs. Jesus destroyed a fig tree once - you call that a Buddhist behavior?
Almost nothing was known about the first fifteen years of his life - sure, but if that is an excuse to say he had been living in India, it's also an excuse to say he lived almost anywhere else. Why would Joseph of Arimathea go to England with the grail and all if Jesus hadn't lived there? He might have learned something from the druids there, who knows?
Nobody ever took Jesus' miracles seriously. He didn't preach guerrilla warfare - he preached blowing up society by much more radical means - by stopping the economy. Feeding 5000 people in the way he did at one occasion - you think any baker would like that? Be sure they'd hate it. Do you think any doctor at the time would like his healing of people? They could stop practicing if he went on like that.
If you turn your back to society at large and enough people do the same, it will fall apart eventually. If you settle conflicts with other people out of court, the courts will lose their function. If you fight them, you merely strengthen them. This idea was put forward by David Flusser. According to him, Jesus believed that God didn't protect people from a shameful death, the consequences of debts and the like, regardless of how righteous they were. Nothing else could make sense of what was going on at that time.

The Phoenix:
You're quite right - but for the wrong reasons. Anyway there weren't only Buddhists in India then, were there?

Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 05-21-01 11:37 AM ET (US)     18 / 36       
Being a leper and coming from a long line of lepers, I have a little insight into this.

Jesus wasn't Buddhist. Jesus and his father have one common goal...To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

All writings concerning the Savior's life between age 12 and 30 are pure speculation.

Btw...this thread has gotten off topic I think.


Knowledge is not power until it is formulated into an organized plan of action.
The Phoenix
Clubman
posted 05-21-01 12:49 PM ET (US)     19 / 36       
Er...I should apologize....my post doesn't come across very well. I didn't mean anything against Jesus and/or Christianity, but merely was pointing out that that theory is disbelieved becuase of an "India-is-inferior" attitude.

Btw Peter, Brahmans *are* Hindus. And it's Brahmins, not Brahmans. (OK, a self-contradictory explanation, but you get the point). Brahmins are the top caste () in Hinduism. It's complicated......and ridiculous.

peter
HG Alumnus
posted 05-21-01 01:22 PM ET (US)     20 / 36       
Oh Phoenix, I'm sure sobody woul take offense. Brahmins eh - there you see I'm not English (Dutch is Brahmanen) I'll try to remember though. And they're Hindus - I should have known that

As to off topic - I'm not sure. Most scenarios aren't exacly historically accurate, so why couldn't one design a scenario about Christianity where you have to get Jesus to India? - You could use the Persia real world map for it - lol.

Danielthemaster
Clubman
posted 05-21-01 01:47 PM ET (US)     21 / 36       
Yes I have a question on Rome how did form, how did it conquer Italy, I'm making a Campaign About This.
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 05-21-01 02:07 PM ET (US)     22 / 36       
Read Livy (ROFL)
Julius
Clubman
posted 05-21-01 04:36 PM ET (US)     23 / 36       
WOW.....i wouldnt have started this thread if i knew you guys were gonna start with religion. First of all, Jesus was NOT born in the year 4 B.C. How could Jesus have been born in the year 4 B.C. if B.C. stands for before Christ?? And it is true that many years of Jesus's life is undocumented. Im not sure if Jesus studied in a Buddhist Temple but even if he did, that doesnt make him a Buddhist Jew. And the idea that Jesus was going to lead his followers against the Romans is the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard. I must admit that i am Roman Catholic and go to a Catholic high school. But im pretty sure about everything ive written here.
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 05-21-01 04:55 PM ET (US)     24 / 36       
Julius:
Lol. Most of your points are right, I freely admit that, even if I'm not a Roman Catholic.
I apologize for the spasms of religious fanaticism that will turn up here every now and then - don't pay attention to it, that't the best policy.
Jesus wasn't born in the year zero however - our numbering of years was invented by a monk who lived in the - okay I forgot what - century but anyway he miscalculated (that's been done more often) and the real year of birth must be some 4 years earlier.
Julius
Clubman
posted 05-21-01 05:01 PM ET (US)     25 / 36       
Oh....sorry about the year thing....i didnt know that. Thanks for the info.
« Previous Page  1 2  Next Page »
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires Heaven | HeavenGames