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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Questions about Persians for the Sheriff
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Topic Subject:Questions about Persians for the Sheriff
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Mr Hanky
Inactive
posted 12-23-98 12:59 PM ET (US)         
I really enjoyed reading this guide. I've been trying to play Persians for over a year. I just couldn't do it. The idea that I shouldn't be cutting much wood is a revelation for me. Of course he's right - why do something that you do so badly?

And the radical idea to give up the sea means that Persian is much more a highland and inland civ than a water civ. I'd tried playing them on the oceans because of the triremes bonus. But the lack of woodcutting has always hamstrung me.

But I do have a few questions that remain unanswered. When the Persian finally makes it to the iron age they finally have access to a fast villager killing unit - the Horse Archer. Considering the speed and lethality of the unit for villie killing, I always make a pack or two of these guys. Is this a waste of resources? HA don't cost any wood, just food and gold. At the minimum you have a unit with an 8 LOS to accompany your cavs or dumbos. I rarely upgrade past a +2 armor, just so that villie mobs can't gang up on my archers, so there aren't much in the way of upgrade costs. And a Persian HHA is probably not a good idea. I mean all those resources for range 8? I'd rather build a few hi-speed AE.

And another question that is sort of related is about seige weapons. I'm assuming that at least one of my enemies will have a ballista/helepolis civ. Since they will slaughter even my turbo elephants, wouldn't making some catapult backup be advisable? I know they suck a large amount of wood out of you - but by this time you're in iron. Hopefully I'll have 40-50 villagers pulling in the resources. Because if I don't have cats I'm reduced to rushing the helepolis with my phants and cav. A losing proposition even in large numbers.

And does the fact that Persians have all tool upgrades make the idea of an all out tool rush a smart idea? Since they are still benefitting from their hunting bonus, shouldn't they try to maximize their advantage early? Slingers, axers and scouts could do some real damage early on.

And I just assumed that you wall early and often with Persians. If you're waiting to find some more food elephants I think a wall would be a good thing to kill time building. How much do you wall Sherriff? Or do you just try to press the attack advantage through tool and into bronze?

Once again - loved the guide. Everyone should take the time to head over to the academy and investigate it.

Mr. Hanky


[This message has been edited by Mr Hanky (edited 12-29-98).]

AuthorReplies:
Spam
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 09:40 AM ET (US)     52 / 73       
mud buddha2:

Granted, this wasn't a "dead serious" game, and we did screw around a lot. But there were at least 15 guard towers around the first wonder. The last one wasn't defended at all, except for a bunch of priests who were pretty far away when the attack began, I recall. But the game served well to demonstrate the RM potential of Persian Armored Ellies (soon to become Phoenician Armored Ellies, mostly yours I believe. ).

C ya around

Spam


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 10:59 AM ET (US)     53 / 73       
Just a quick question. In Iron, Per get 12 wood every 18 seconds. 'cept phoeny, Craft civs get 16 every 18. That means they only get wood 4/12 or 33% faster. That means you should be able to field 75% as many 'remes. (They get 4/3 the wood, so you get 3/4 the units.) Doesn't the 50% faster fire rate make up for that? Or is the 1/4 fewer ships (i.e, 1/4 fewer HP) the big problem? Or the range? Or just that with opponents who move, non-ballistics civs just blow? Or a combination? I can't get the figures to show that Per should give up the advantage of a nearly complete Iron navy, arguably only worse than Phoeny, Minoa, Greek and Yamato... (Though Carthage does field some *nasty* FGs)

Anyone care to respond?


Keep your stick on the ice.

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 11:03 AM ET (US)     54 / 73       
Oh, and if you convert those AEs, don't attack the ones on the wonder! Seigecraft trample damage is still pretty significant (found out the hard way... )


Keep your stick on the ice.

Janman516
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 11:56 AM ET (US)     55 / 73       
Thorfinn,

I believe Persians Iron Navy is approximately equal to all civs except Phoney, Minoa and Yamato. The fire rates for Persia are 1.3 per second, everyone else 1.8. That means you need only .72 as many ships. The lack of 2 woodchopping upgrades as you have already calculated gives you .75 as many ships. This advantage (3 ships out of a hundred) is offset by the lack of 2 range that persia doesnt get from the 2 woodchopping bonuses.

Janman516


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 11:58 AM ET (US)     56 / 73       
75% of 100 would be 25 less ships not 3 :-)


Janman516
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 12:16 PM ET (US)     57 / 73       
Emowilli

(.75-.72)100=3

Sorry for not being explicit.

Janman516


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 03:11 PM ET (US)     58 / 73       
Ahh see where you were going. How did you come up with the .72 as many ships though? Reducing the number of persian ships reduces the total hipoints and the total attack points.


Janman516
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 04:12 PM ET (US)     59 / 73       
Emowilli,

Actually the number comes from one of your priveous posts. You stated above that the persians fire once every 1.3 seconds, everyone else fires once per 1.8 seconds. 1.3/1.8= .72.

I submit this means that 72 persian tiremes have the exact same firepower as 100 of anyone else, all else being equal.

Here is my cross proof; 72.22222 persian remes will fire 55.55 times in a second. (72.2222/1.3). Others fire 100/1.8 =55.55


Janman516


Janman516
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 04:27 PM ET (US)     60 / 73       
Emowilly

Ahhh! your hitpoint point just hit me! I have to reconsider my math. Although 72 per. remes have the same fire power as 100 others, they have 28% less hitpoints. clearly the 100 others will beat 72 persians.

I got to look this over.

Janman516


Janman516
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 07:36 PM ET (US)     61 / 73       
For what its worth I crunched the numbers in a spreadsheet. Mathematically, 85 persian tiremes have enough firepower to do away with 100 other tiremes in the same time period, all other factors being equal.

This can probably be confirmed with calculus. Luckily for me, I forgot all the calculus I was awake to hear when I took it 1972 - 1973.

I tested this in the scenario editor to gauge the effect of the extra +2 range the other ships have to see if it was a significant advantage. It has a lot more effect than I thought as the other tiremes consistantly bought more fire to bear. I did the test using 17 post iron persian tiremes and 20 egyptian ones. I let the computer control both sides and the other side usually had 1 tireme (or more)standing.

Basically this means Persia is falling at least 10 ships per 100 short of what they need to produce to hold a draw on the seas.

As Thorfinn stated above Persia can only field 3/4 the tiremes another civ can field. They need to field 85% of other civs, or 85 per 100.

To some extent superior tactics may throw the battle one way or another but I surmise not enough to throw the balance when 2 nearly similar players face-off

Janman516


Elijeh
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 10:08 PM ET (US)     62 / 73       
Um ender:
5 persian war eles will stomp a small wall flat in about 33 seconds(i tested it..thats what i got when i let them manage themselves after the first 3 tiles of wall go knocked down at 28 seconds....
25 Char archerS? Um..by 20 mins? Thats
1000 food, and 1750 wood. not counting the Wheel and the fact that you must have 4 or 5 Ranges, cuz 25 CA outta oen range takes a whopping 10 minutes! so if you bronze in a reasonable slow civ time of 15 mins, it'll take 25 mins to buidl that force up. now outta 5 ranges it takes amazingly 2 mins! but thats another 850 wood. so you have all this wood by 20 minutes? I concede you must be a better player to do that. (once again not counting upgrades, or wheel.) So anyway i guess your just a killer player
chickadigma:
Your minoan comps? Hah i'm sure you can't have minoan comps before a competant persain player bronzes. remeber in early game tiem Persias economy is one step behind shang. So expect a competant persia player to be bronzing as fast(or moderatly slower than) shang.
Okay walls? ummm Well i tested it: 4 st(comp contrulled) behind a wall, against 5 eles(even odds i say). the Sts rapidly blasted their own walls with splash, and my eles came in and cleane dup..no eles lost.
Tool rushes, well the fact is PERSIA IS FASTER. But yes 10 scout swill die Vs 10 bowmen..but 10 slingers? hah! Slingers'll chew up any thign availble to assyria with impunity. and really the scout rush can kill assyrian opponents. Oh and um assyria isn't a fav civ no more. the top four are(in order of power): shang, Phoen, Minoa, and hittite. Shang minoa and phoen ar emore popular due to continetal, and Medit maps. Thes emaps lend themselves to boat booms, which all 3 civs here do extremly well! Oh and the assyrians prepared for the tool rush? sur it'll fail. even shang can't tool rush if its enemies defenses are prepared. But the thign is you gunna be prepare dfor a 8 minute scout rush?(i've suffered these) sure 2-4 scouts arn't nuthin...cept for they have attack upgrade and more than double villie HP. AND they can chas eyou down. HAHAHAHA! so your prepared are ya? well after a light probe the Persia bronzes, and hits you with camels. then he irons or continues the bronz ewar 1on1(with high chance sof succes) Why? your economy...no matter WHO, what or where you are is shot to shit. Nuthin to say 'bout dat. And if he irons your screwed..iron priests and Eles Vs. your minoan comps? i'll convert your Archery ranges and build some HAs to counter ! and meanwhile your villies are fleeing my mean'ole eles.


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-08-99 10:17 PM ET (US)     63 / 73       
I thought about the 'reme HP problem and came to about the same answer. But I'm still undecided about whether the sea is Per's friend or not.

1. Per only need about 8 woodies per dock to keep remes flowing smoothly. Craft civs get by with only 6. Remes pop out at rate of 2/min/dock. Realistically, how many boats can you get in one place for a big battle? 20 from each side will get in each other's way. I am inclined to think that battles of 8-10 per side are more likely. You could have one such battle every other minute if you had 20 Pers and 15 Craft v chopping and 3 docks each. Almost non-stop action.

2. Per's navy bonus equalization only applies to remes. CRemes & Jugs don't enter into the picture, but probably don't do much in a sea fight anyway. More for shore bombardment.

3. After tool, Per woodcutting (0.76/sec) is almost twice as good as Per farming (0.4/sec). Maybe you should deemphasize food intensive units in favor of wood based units. If your opponent is going food intensive, he will have many fewer choppers than you. Seems you shouldn't be harvesting wood at a disadvantage and use it to make food at a disadvantage as well.

4. Its probably be better to boat fish tool/early bronze, while your woodchopping is still similar to other civs and your ships are the same. Your opponent may ignore your fishers and go after your military anyway. Or they should, cuz your military ships are targeting his. Once you lose lumber competiveness, grab your berries. Their value is age/upgrade independent. Again, I don't know, just throwing out ideas based on economic principle of comparative advantage.
5. Since your tool is no worse than any other, and will probably hit it sooner than any but shang, a combined water/land assault on an appropriate map may be telling. At the very least, your lead time could be used to place enough scout ships out to discourage or kill docks and fishing boats. If your scout ship happens to be in range when the opponent places a foundation, one shot kills 120 wood and earns you many terms of endearment.

Don't know. What do you think?


Keep your stick on the ice.

[This message has been edited by Thorfinn (edited 01-08-99).]

ChiKsiDigamma
Inactive
posted 01-09-99 10:03 AM ET (US)     64 / 73       
I'm prolly not a killer player.. btu with about 20-30 Villagers, and about 10 on wood, 10 on gold, and with Minoan Farm Bonus, about 6 or 7 farms, it would be no trouble getting comps before you can launch an attack of Camels, etc. But i admit, Minoan vs. Persian would probably turn to Persian's favor in Iron..
I had a game last night... and Scout rushed a Phoenician, I destroyed him by around the 8th minute.. then, used my catapults to clean-up.
Talking abotu Catapults, my ST wouldn;t demolish their own wall, they have no area damage, so if I just got them all to Attack Ground and set them up correcltly, you wanted be able to get close to my walls, in which I'd have my Comps behind to help the ST

Bronze Minoan could beat the hell out of Persian Bronze, because Minoan Economy, namely farming would dominate

Ender
Guest
posted 01-09-99 11:48 AM ET (US)     65 / 73       
A note on persian triremes vs regular triremes. First off persia also doesn't get the wheel, this hurts wood production as well as the 2 upgrades lacking.

2nd you are only looking at the damage potential of the triremes, remember, if I have 10 triremes and you have 7, if yours do damage just as fast as mine you still lose, because I have 3 extra triremes worth of hit points. You need to take damage absorption into account, not just damage dealt.


Filthydelphia
Clubman
(id: Al_Kharn the Great)
posted 01-10-99 12:48 PM ET (US)     66 / 73       
What many of you seem to have forgotten is the fact that Persia gets all storage pit upgrades. If they get logistics, Iron shield, metallurgy, and chain mail, their legions should prove nearly invincible. Don't you think 80 Legions (with logistics, Iron Shield, metallurgy, and Chain Mail) could do some serious damage. The fact that after the upgrades, legions are so cheap, also helps Persia.

By the way, historically speaking, Persians did have chariots. I guess ES didn't want to give them any because that would make Persia far too strong.


Janman516
Clubman
posted 01-11-99 12:01 PM ET (US)     67 / 73       
Here is some math that documents that you need a ratio of .85 Persian triremes to other triremes to maintain equality on the sea. At this ratio, taking into account both firepower and hitpoints, both fleets are destroyed in 23.5 seconds.

.85 x 200 = 170 hp Total Persian Hitpoints
.85 x 13/1.3= 8.5 Total Persian attack damage per second

1 x 200 = 200 hp Total Other Hitpoints
1x 13/1.8 = 7.22 Total Other attack damage per second

170/7.22= 23.55 seconds = Time to kill Persian ships
200/8.5= 23.53 seconds = Time to Kill other ships.

Enderís point about the wheel and its effect on wood gathering is important. Persia simply has to build more s/pís and/or town centers to minimize walking distance than other civs, another unavoidable cost. If walking distance didnít matter, an equal amount of Persian woodchoppers could only field .75 triremes. Walking time/ extra pits reduces this even further. Generalship and more efficient economy may overcome these problems but in a case of all things being equal, Persia canít maintain a sea presence in Iron. Persia simply cannot maintain the .85 ratio needed for parity on the sea.


Janman516


Filthydelphia
Clubman
(id: Al_Kharn the Great)
posted 01-11-99 09:33 PM ET (US)     68 / 73       
Yet why must Persia use ships? If they can not achieve victory on the seas, why do they bother with ships? Persia can easily maintain a ground war in which their soldiers require little more than food/gold. The lack of the wheel does not neccarrily affect resource gathering, if they don't have far to walk. Just a thought.


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-11-99 10:13 PM ET (US)     69 / 73       
Al-Kharn, this is all my fault. Check back to see that I suggested that with a full navy and a bonus fire rate, Persia might not have to give up the sea.

Sorry, everyone.


Keep your stick on the ice.

Filthydelphia
Clubman
(id: Al_Kharn the Great)
posted 01-12-99 05:38 PM ET (US)     70 / 73       
As I said earlier, Persia can fight a very effective land war with their Legions. (see above message).

[This message has been edited by Al_Kharn the Great (edited 01-13-99).]

MacRat
Clubman
posted 01-12-99 05:46 PM ET (US)     71 / 73       
Al_Kharn the Great,

If you can post a reply, you can post a topic.

MR


Filthydelphia
Clubman
(id: Al_Kharn the Great)
posted 01-12-99 07:32 PM ET (US)     72 / 73       
It says I need to know the forum password.


Filthydelphia
Clubman
(id: Al_Kharn the Great)
posted 01-12-99 07:35 PM ET (US)     73 / 73       
Sorry. I know what I was doing wrong.


Imperius Jim
Inactive
posted 01-13-99 00:00 AM ET (US)     74 / 73       
ChiKsiDigamma:

I think you need to look at some of your examples again. You say you can have Minoan comps before a Persian player can launch a Camel attack? Camels are available immediately in Bronze and they're fast whereas Comps take TWO upgrades. Also, Persia's hunting bonus can get them to Bronze AHEAD of Minoa. The "farm bonus" only means Minoa's farms last LONGER, not that they produce faster. In fact, you're not even apt to notice the difference before you're hit by Persian Camels since a normal farm built in early Tool (right after the Market) would probably not have expired yet by then (we're talking EARLY Bronze now).

Also, you say you destroyed an opponent with a Scout rush in EIGHT minutes? That means you must have hit the Tool upgrade at around the four-minute mark? How did that happen?

In conclusion, I'd submit that the Minoan farm advantage only comes into play after Persia's available wildlife has been hunted and they're starting to feel the burn from their single wood bonus... depending on the map (and whether they get a good fishing spot), they could be in Iron by then...

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