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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Questions about Persians for the Sheriff
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Topic Subject:Questions about Persians for the Sheriff
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Mr Hanky
Inactive
posted 12-23-98 12:59 PM ET (US)         
I really enjoyed reading this guide. I've been trying to play Persians for over a year. I just couldn't do it. The idea that I shouldn't be cutting much wood is a revelation for me. Of course he's right - why do something that you do so badly?

And the radical idea to give up the sea means that Persian is much more a highland and inland civ than a water civ. I'd tried playing them on the oceans because of the triremes bonus. But the lack of woodcutting has always hamstrung me.

But I do have a few questions that remain unanswered. When the Persian finally makes it to the iron age they finally have access to a fast villager killing unit - the Horse Archer. Considering the speed and lethality of the unit for villie killing, I always make a pack or two of these guys. Is this a waste of resources? HA don't cost any wood, just food and gold. At the minimum you have a unit with an 8 LOS to accompany your cavs or dumbos. I rarely upgrade past a +2 armor, just so that villie mobs can't gang up on my archers, so there aren't much in the way of upgrade costs. And a Persian HHA is probably not a good idea. I mean all those resources for range 8? I'd rather build a few hi-speed AE.

And another question that is sort of related is about seige weapons. I'm assuming that at least one of my enemies will have a ballista/helepolis civ. Since they will slaughter even my turbo elephants, wouldn't making some catapult backup be advisable? I know they suck a large amount of wood out of you - but by this time you're in iron. Hopefully I'll have 40-50 villagers pulling in the resources. Because if I don't have cats I'm reduced to rushing the helepolis with my phants and cav. A losing proposition even in large numbers.

And does the fact that Persians have all tool upgrades make the idea of an all out tool rush a smart idea? Since they are still benefitting from their hunting bonus, shouldn't they try to maximize their advantage early? Slingers, axers and scouts could do some real damage early on.

And I just assumed that you wall early and often with Persians. If you're waiting to find some more food elephants I think a wall would be a good thing to kill time building. How much do you wall Sherriff? Or do you just try to press the attack advantage through tool and into bronze?

Once again - loved the guide. Everyone should take the time to head over to the academy and investigate it.

Mr. Hanky


[This message has been edited by Mr Hanky (edited 12-29-98).]

AuthorReplies:
BIG_NoF00_Dogg
Inactive
posted 01-05-99 10:55 PM ET (US)     27 / 73       

[This message has been edited by Angel MacRat (edited 01-06-99).]

BIG_NoF00_Dogg
Inactive
posted 01-05-99 10:55 PM ET (US)     28 / 73       

[This message has been edited by Angel MacRat (edited 01-06-99).]

BIG_NoF00_Dogg
Inactive
posted 01-05-99 10:56 PM ET (US)     29 / 73       

[This message has been edited by Angel MacRat (edited 01-06-99).]

BIG_NoF00_Dogg
Inactive
posted 01-05-99 10:56 PM ET (US)     30 / 73       

[This message has been edited by Angel MacRat (edited 01-06-99).]

BIG_NoF00_Dogg
Inactive
posted 01-05-99 10:56 PM ET (US)     31 / 73       

[This message has been edited by Angel MacRat (edited 01-06-99).]

BIG_NoF00_Dogg
Inactive
posted 01-05-99 10:57 PM ET (US)     32 / 73       

[This message has been edited by Angel MacRat (edited 01-06-99).]

BIG_NoF00_Dogg
Inactive
posted 01-05-99 10:57 PM ET (US)     33 / 73       

[This message has been edited by Angel MacRat (edited 01-06-99).]

Ender
Guest
posted 01-06-99 06:58 AM ET (US)     34 / 73       
Yeah but iron jumping just won't work unless you obviously are better than the opponent. Bronze age priests convert elephants just fine, camels can kill persian horse archers, camels can kill persian catapults easily. The only real bonus gained by persian by ironing is better priests, which die to chariot archers easily. I can't imagine losing to a persian iron jump, I'd just see him go iron, iron myself and his crappy economy would kill him. Not to mention the fact that his villagers would all be dead before he made it to iron.

Oh well Persia still sucks, elephants are still fun to try to get to work, but maybe against intermediate players iron jumping and elephant rushing will work, if it doesn't at least it was fun.


Stooge_Farsan
Inactive
posted 01-06-99 07:35 AM ET (US)     35 / 73       
I do get stucked in Persia a few times by the random gud, and realized how weak it's bronze is.

I was really astonished that Ender want to go compies with Persia - those 7+1 range compies do not have much chances vs CAs. Very difficult in my hand anyway.

I guess persia has to be played at 1.0 speed. Hunting become difficult when it is 1.5 or faster


Stooge_Farsan

Ender
Guest
posted 01-06-99 09:47 AM ET (US)     36 / 73       
I prefer tool rushing with persian, if I can't do that I prefer camel rushing. If that fails I try to go comps/camels, if the enemy goes iron the game is over IMO. Persian s economy is just too bad to have a chance against any other civ in iron... if I rated the civs in iron on default starts I would put persian dead last! even worse than yamato.


Elijeh
Clubman
posted 01-06-99 04:10 PM ET (US)     37 / 73       
Ender:
Okay bronze priests convert Eles? Sure. but how many hittite players build temples or priests? How many minoans. how many shangs? How many Phoens. Hell how many players build priests when in bronze? Um gee does the fact that their are CA zippin about happen to tell you why priests arn't used in bronze? Uhhhhhhhh. D-uh! and should someone use priests to top ONE and i repeat ONE player thats a serios dent in his economy.
Oh and you'd rather use your bronze economy? Mid-late bronze is persias worst Hour. Uhhh why? against almost any civ persias economy is already beat, the enemy will have boats, and wheel. that means more wood and food which translates to more vills and boats. As well Phoen, Shang, or minoa in Bronze simply will stomp bronze Persia. And a tool minoa beats a tool persia. why? If minoa survives even barely than his cheaper boats mean more food and more vills. Now hoppin to iron liek 5 minutes into bronze can hold certian benefits.

First Eles. Eles are devastating when their persian. oh yeah conversion? At 20 or 22 mins how many player shave a sizable army of priests. OH and persian Eles stand a chance or actully closing with those pathetic 25 HP priests.

Second Priests. Priests with Mono and Fanaticism can gain you some valuble villies, priests, AND buildings. Nothings more fun than convertign a couple ranges only to have 5 CA of your color pop out .

now don't think i disagree with everything you say but let sput persia this way: In all ages persia has to strike swiftly and hard. Otherwise their enemy will pull a suprior economy on'em. SO all the time persia has a very narrow window of oppertunity. Should they fail in destroying their enemy in this narrow time frame, they should commit Sepuku. Cuz bronze shang, phoen or minie is just tooooooo tough for persia,. SO if you tool rush..good doing but soon people will realize what technique your using,and they will predict it.
-elijeh


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-06-99 04:22 PM ET (US)     38 / 73       
Maybe its why I don't have a very high rating, but unless I am playing Mace, I always have priests. They are just too danged useful. They are worth having just for healing. And when they can pick up a few free cav, hoplites, or eles, BONUS! My wife runs a great priest/chariot combo, and racks up well into triple digit conversions in a typical game... Talk about messing up someone's economy...


Keep your stick on the ice.

FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 01-06-99 05:36 PM ET (US)     39 / 73       
Wow, long posts...

Why do you guys say that Persians have weak bronze? They have compies, not too good, but they still kill CA pretty good. They have camels that have +4 attack vs CA. What else do they need to defend? there own CA? but Mace doesnt have them and they are one of the best bronze age civs. I have seen a Phoenician vs. Phoenician battles where Compyis came out victorious over chariots, and usually having enough left to go kill his villagers. Also compies build faster than chariots. The only fact is that they are slow, but for defense speed is not as important. And if you can camouflage your comps with you wood cutters you should kill the opponent chariots very fast. 1 Stone Thrower will die to 5-7 compies. It will be an exhange of maybe 1-2 compies for a ST. Not to mention that ST build a lot longer.

Persians are a pretty good civ, there woocutting does not affect them because they hardly use wood. ( when playing them i always find that i have about 3k of wood ).

I was gonna write my own guide, but i think Sherif's is enough.


Dustyn
Inactive
posted 01-06-99 06:54 PM ET (US)     40 / 73       
I definatly side with Ender on this one. If you don't attack early with persia, you are not utilizing their economic bonus to its fullest. Persia's strongest age is the tool age, and they have a very strong economy in that age, which allows for a very heavy flow of tool units while bronzing relatively quickly. After the game runs out, persia quickly has the worst economy of any civ.

Persia is a decent civ at one way games (where you keep the battle on the enemy side) and little to no counterattacking is involved. Non wheeled vills simply die horribly to counterattacks, which in games where the players are close to equal, should occur. The longer you wait to attack initially, the more likely counterattacks will occur, and you will lose more vills than he.

Playing persia with a quick bronze, and then stable raiding and eventually ironing may be a good way to play a civ that has an awesome iron, and a weak bronze, but persia has a decent bronze, but a poor iron. The arguement that "noone builds temples" seems very ignorant, because part of RTS gaming is countering attacks, and priests are a good counter to elephants. As for a unit being "fun" to use, thats not something that should really be considered when writing a "strategy" guide. I think greek phalanxs are very fun units, but they still suck versus most other units.


Elijeh
Clubman
posted 01-06-99 08:00 PM ET (US)     41 / 73       
Okay...so everybody builds temples to convert Eles? Bronz eis Persias best time? Okay wait here...if peopel think bronze is persias strongest time(excluding tool) then why would they make priests to convert Persias awasome BRONZE age eles? Ummmm geee i didn't know persia had eles in bronze..WOW. alrighty then..Obviously most people don't expect persia, and should they they will expect a tool or bronze rush. Deliever them about 6 or so eles in 20 or 22 mins and watch'em panic. As you know most civs have CAs which mean priests i nbronz eare a No-no. And as the most awasome CD(celistial_dawn) has said: the unexpected attack is the attack without a defense(not in those exact words ).
and No-one builds temples for bronze priests cept for egypt, choson and babs. Why? CAs...chariot archers simply maim priests. So they use them Vs. the Persian, means against a hittite ally or shang or phoen ally they just took a big gun and blew their foot, leg and abdomen off. Why? CAs. they kill priests. simple. do i ned to say it again? look in your manual, i thin kthe +7 attack Vs. priests and liek 4x conversion resistanc espeaks for itself. dosn't it? Heheheh.
Okay persia has a narrow chanc ein tool, bronze AND iron. however peopel prepared for a bronze war are people unprepared for eles. and the top four played Civ si've seen are Hittite, minoan,(both have terrible priests) shang and phoen(who have a super economy and all bronze units). Phoe nand shangs bronze can whip persias, and can minies and hitters. thats why their the most played civs..cuz of their bronze power. and their speed. not to mention CA still play a major role in bronze warfare, so why build priests if you at most SUSPECT a persian my boom to iron.


Sting
Clubman
posted 01-06-99 09:40 PM ET (US)     42 / 73       
ok Im gonna try to salvage what I can from the last few posts and sum this thread up so we can stop repeating ourselves

1) Persia, without a doubt, should be used to attack in tool. They can tool faster than many civs and still bronze in decent time with a good map full of animals.

2) Persian bronze sucks. Short range compys and lack of market techs (namely artisanship) doesnt allow for mass producing of stone throwers and/or ships. Persian camels are probably one of the best ways to go, but persia absolutely gets eaten by too many civs in bronze...moving right along

3) Persia has a decent early iron. This is another key time to attack. They get HAs, and altho short range, still useful in raiding towns. They get elephants which you need to attack with before the opponant can get crazy with the academy and priests.

I just kinda jumped into the conversation a while back and started reading it, so if my little "summary" is somewhat wrong someone pls fix it, type it, and get it over with


postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 01-06-99 11:12 PM ET (US)     43 / 73       
You know what I find interesting? Fully Upgraded Persian HHAs are the only HHAs that will be slaughtered by Fully Upgraded Slingers with equal resources spent. This is more of an extreme example, and probably would not happen often, but Persia is one of the few civs that I can see myself using slingers against in Iron. Since the Persian HHAs cannot hit and run without being hit them selves, they have no choice but to completely avoid them. Again people, I am not listing a strat here, just something I find interesting. I know there are ways around it, etc etc etc... But this is just to show how their lack of upgrades lead to some serious problems in Iron for all you people who think they are the bomb in Iron.


Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 01-07-99 00:32 AM ET (US)     44 / 73       
I was passing by cuz the thread was getting big. I have a question. Few of you said that it was really easy to iron in 22 (or so) or be in iron at 25 with a good economy and many iron age units. Well, it is extremely strange that I do not experience that. IMHO, when your opponent is investing "MOST/ALL/A LOT" of his ressources in his bronze army and send it all to you cuz he really wants to kill you in bronze (lets say at 17-18-19-20), how can you, god damn it, iron at 22??? Don't you have to follow the pace of the game and spend "most/all/a lot" of your ressources just to "defend/balance/survive"?? Yeah, I can iron in 22, but at that point, I would be playing Simcity cuz nobody attacked me and I decided to #1) iron jump and #2) forget many tech upgrades... And, lets say you play against me, I am crancking villies like mad with my 2-3 TC in early bronze and invest everything else in my army to wipe you, do not tell me you can iron in 24!! Come on I'm a wannabe expert!! That's ridiculous! I am an acceptable ironer. I usually do it around 27-33(and I am very violent in bronze). When I look at the timelines, I am, most of the time, first or second to do it... Ironing in 22... yeah right... Hurray for Simcity... And by the way, I sometimes play Simcity, but only when I am between my 2 partners(map wise) and that I know they are reliable(members of my clan? )...

My two hundred dollar bills



The_Sheriff
Clubman
posted 01-07-99 06:17 AM ET (US)     45 / 73       
Why Persians need to iron, and why bronze sucks:

1. You cant let the opponent control the oceans forever. Persian tririems always overwhelm their unsuspecting galleys, and now its your turn to fish so you can make all those dumbos.

2. Composite archers. If you are playing against a phoen, yam, shang, minoan, baby etc, they are most definately going to use compies, and TONS of them. And Persia doesnt have a prayer vs these armies. But in iron, I have used 6 elephants to kill 40 comps, and catapults are equally effective. Vs comps, go iron or die

3. Demolition crews. When I arrive in your town with 5 charging war elephants with a couple priests on their tale, you have no choice but to run for your lives. And now those eles and priests will wipe out all of your houses, your market, your archery ranges. You will need 500-1000 wood to replace it all. Most players I have seen dont think of this, and jump right into chasing the peasants, but it only takes about 1 minute to destroy his entire town when persians are iron. Also those pesky walls will crumble much much faster vs those eles.

4. Its time to end the game. Fighting in bronze, means you are spending 60 gold for camels and 80 gold for cavs, for a mediocre unit. War eles only cost 40 gold, and they are equivalent to probably 5 cavalry, saving you hundreds in that very precious gold. Persia can not maintain huge camel/cavalry armies, there just isnt enough resources on the map for it. Take it from me, if you run
out of gold, you aint gonna win.


About tool rushing, this is just fine I have no arguments against it. Persians do tool rush well, and I myself take advantage of this often. I am just one who hates taking chances, and a tool rush is always risky. If your opponent knows its coming and has the proper defense for it, you will end up in big trouble. If ya think you can do it, knock yourself out, you probly will succeed more often than not, just not always.


Ender
Guest
posted 01-07-99 07:07 AM ET (US)     46 / 73       
what do you do when your army of elephants and priests smack into a wall though? Or when you've just clicked the iron upgrade and my 25 chariot archers enter your area and you can't get away without the wheel. How about when I also iron jump, reach iron at the same time, or when since I know I'm playing persian, and I notice by achievements you seem to be iron jumping so I build some priests of my own.

I understand your point about bronze, the economy already sucks by that point and the units aren't great. What I've gotten out of this thread is if you don't win in tool persia can't hope to keep up with another civ unless they are one age ahead of that civ. So maybe if you can iron and beat them while they are bronze you stand a chance. Oh well I'll stick with my tool/early camel rushes and hope they win.

As for persian triremes ruling the seas, this isn't true at all, sure they fire twice as fast, but by mid iron persians are cutting wood half as fast, so they are making half as many triremes, and they have less range, so in mid iron persian starts losing the sea, not winning it. In early iron they own the seas though.


Spam
Clubman
posted 01-07-99 11:03 AM ET (US)     47 / 73       
In one of my rare games against some people from this forum (and GX) I destroyed 3 (three!) heavily towered enemy wonders with Persian Armored Ellies. No other civs could have pulled that off IMO. Persian AEs tear down stuff at an amazing rate. They also have a serious loyalty problem though. My Phoenician opponent converted 40 (forty!) of my elephants in that game, LOL. Unfortunately, I dropped just when I was finishing my own wonder, so I have no idea how the mayhem ended. GG Laelius, qwksnd, Energy99% and everyone else!

I just want to add that I don't really agree that Persia has such a completely crappy economy in iron as some people suggest. The only area were they are really handicapped is woodcutting. I usually have a good flow of food, gold and stone in iron, of course nothing to write home about but usually adequate. The big problem is that the persian economy is so stationary and that they have such big trouble relocating when the *****hits the fan.

My 2 cents.

Spam


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-07-99 11:30 AM ET (US)     48 / 73       
Actually the persian remes fire every 1.3 secs instead of 1.8 for normally remes. So normal remes are 38% slower in firing then the persian ones.


[This message has been edited by Emowilli (edited 01-07-99).]

FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 01-07-99 07:42 PM ET (US)     49 / 73       
Hey guys, you always talk about how Persia is really weak in resources. But here is a quote that i found:




"Your mind, is your best resource"


FanatiC KaBaN


[This message has been edited by FanatiC KaBaN (edited 01-07-99).]

mud buddha2
Inactive
posted 01-07-99 08:33 PM ET (US)     50 / 73       
hey spam, i was _6351 in that game. actually, none of the wonders were heavily towered, and we were just messing around. the reason qwk quit was cause i converted his units, which attacked his own units, and he got *******and left

the first 2 wonders were horribly defended, and all 3 wonders were built a the same time. the third one was just careless on my part, considering your AE's went untouched. oh, and in the end, we still won, but i dropped at the same time you did, so it was ender vs laelius at the end.

and with persia, i think you need to tool rush in 1 vs 1's, and in team games, either tool or bronz 1 or 2 of their players out of the game. persia econ is way too terrible to try to make a big army to attck w/ in iron, and the persian speed advantage only lasts so long.


ChiKsiDigamma
Inactive
posted 01-08-99 08:50 AM ET (US)     51 / 73       
Okay... A few points I have to make:

-1- If you're just going bronze, what happens if my Minoan Composites come in a kcik the *****out of all your Villagers? Bye Bye Eles...

-2- If the opponent was walled in and had some ST or Catapults, don't you think your Ele's would be dead meat before they got through? Which would then lead to heavier fortification in that area.

-3- If you tool rushed an Assyrian opponent, don't you think that 10 bowmen would take out 10 Scouts? Coz I sure as hell do.

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