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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Questions about Persians for the Sheriff
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Topic Subject:Questions about Persians for the Sheriff
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Mr Hanky
Inactive
posted 12-23-98 12:59 PM ET (US)         
I really enjoyed reading this guide. I've been trying to play Persians for over a year. I just couldn't do it. The idea that I shouldn't be cutting much wood is a revelation for me. Of course he's right - why do something that you do so badly?

And the radical idea to give up the sea means that Persian is much more a highland and inland civ than a water civ. I'd tried playing them on the oceans because of the triremes bonus. But the lack of woodcutting has always hamstrung me.

But I do have a few questions that remain unanswered. When the Persian finally makes it to the iron age they finally have access to a fast villager killing unit - the Horse Archer. Considering the speed and lethality of the unit for villie killing, I always make a pack or two of these guys. Is this a waste of resources? HA don't cost any wood, just food and gold. At the minimum you have a unit with an 8 LOS to accompany your cavs or dumbos. I rarely upgrade past a +2 armor, just so that villie mobs can't gang up on my archers, so there aren't much in the way of upgrade costs. And a Persian HHA is probably not a good idea. I mean all those resources for range 8? I'd rather build a few hi-speed AE.

And another question that is sort of related is about seige weapons. I'm assuming that at least one of my enemies will have a ballista/helepolis civ. Since they will slaughter even my turbo elephants, wouldn't making some catapult backup be advisable? I know they suck a large amount of wood out of you - but by this time you're in iron. Hopefully I'll have 40-50 villagers pulling in the resources. Because if I don't have cats I'm reduced to rushing the helepolis with my phants and cav. A losing proposition even in large numbers.

And does the fact that Persians have all tool upgrades make the idea of an all out tool rush a smart idea? Since they are still benefitting from their hunting bonus, shouldn't they try to maximize their advantage early? Slingers, axers and scouts could do some real damage early on.

And I just assumed that you wall early and often with Persians. If you're waiting to find some more food elephants I think a wall would be a good thing to kill time building. How much do you wall Sherriff? Or do you just try to press the attack advantage through tool and into bronze?

Once again - loved the guide. Everyone should take the time to head over to the academy and investigate it.

Mr. Hanky


[This message has been edited by Mr Hanky (edited 12-29-98).]

AuthorReplies:
Mr Hanky
Inactive
posted 12-29-98 10:29 AM ET (US)     1 / 73       
Did anyone else read the Persian guide? Am I that alone in wanting to play these guys in a RM game? Fast elephants and fast firing triremes are great! Try them in DM sometime and you'll understand why I want to pull that stuff in a RM game.

(Yeah I know it's lame to reply to your own post, but I think people didn't see it since I posted it right around Christmas)

Mr Hanky


Janman516
Clubman
posted 12-29-98 10:44 AM ET (US)     2 / 73       
Hi Hanky!

I guess everyone was waiting for the sheriff to answer your post, I was. I thought the guide was good, not because I want to play Persians, but what to do with them when I get stuck with them in a Randomizer or Random game.

My memory being what it is though, the only point I remember about the guide is that Persians should not concentrate on Wood based units.

Basically, they can give you a fast tool time and hence a good tool rush. Also the war hogs are awesome if you can get to iron. Sheriffs guide shows how to make the best out of a bad civ.

If they were only given 1 more wood chopping bonus they would be able to hold there own.

Janman516


Imperius Jim
Inactive
posted 12-29-98 10:53 AM ET (US)     3 / 73       
You're not the only one who read the guide... I've been practicing with Persians for the last few days, hoping against hope that I could see a possibility for them in random map. Sheriff does a good job of trying to overcome the wood/range deficiency, but I'm so used to archery range units and galleys... the guide really emphasizes Persia's strengths, concentrating on food and gold while ignoring the range, siege workshop, and the unavailable academy. I'm curious if he's had the occasion to employ Slingers very often since they aren't mentioned in the guide...

Persians are definitely capable of a decent tool rush though. I've been pitting first near gazelles/wood and the villager production gap has been minimal.

Well, I'll actually be able to play on the Zone shortly so maybe I'll give the Persians a try against Carthaginians or Greeks or maybe Choson (eww, cheap priests...)

Ender
Guest
posted 12-29-98 11:28 AM ET (US)     4 / 73       
I disagree strongly with parts of his guide. I think persia should be trying to win the game in bronze not in iron, there weaknesses don't start to show unitl iron age when the lack of upgrades really starts to hurt them. Lets face it, fast elephants still suck unless you get hordes of them, to get hordes of them you need to get to iron and survive for 5 minutes or so in iron, this means you are doing nothing until at least 22 minutes into the game, plus trying to avoid controlling the seas, and avoiding farming, this doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

I prefer the tool rush or the comp/cav army in bronze age, they can bronze pretty fast, and their economy is as good as other civs in bronze. Lets face it, anyway you look at it they are a below average civ, no wheel, crappy versions of all units except elephants/triremes, 2 of the most resource intensive units considering the 1 wood cutting upgrade and 1 farming upgrade.


Sting
Clubman
posted 12-29-98 01:34 PM ET (US)     5 / 73       
Not to mention the fact that they are gold dependant...I hate that attribute in a civ


Out4Blood
Clubman
posted 12-29-98 02:35 PM ET (US)     6 / 73       
Well after having The_Sheriff kick my behind in 3 different games where he was Persian, I'm a believer - he's definitely on to something. Frankly - he had some help with his allies - but his attack was much stronger than I was expecting.

Hats off to Sheriff - he is darn good :-)

I have yet to beat him in a team game, but at least I am 1-0 in 1on1's with him. (And I'll never play him again! :-)


Ender
Guest
posted 12-30-98 06:57 AM ET (US)     7 / 73       
yeah but the key is, would he of beat you easier with another civ, like someone slow like egypt.


Hyperion
Inactive
posted 01-02-99 11:29 PM ET (US)     8 / 73       
Well, being beaten by the Sheriff doesn't show much, because he's damn good. But, believe me, when you get used to playing Persians, you wonder why no one ever plays them in slow civ games(I used to all the time, but Macedonians were just too cool for me).

Ender, I think, is wrong when he suggests that you try to win in bronze, and the Sheriff is right when he says that they have a lousy bronze. Build a few units really early in bronze - and you can almost always bronze first with the Persians, sometimes even after the scout rush - but don't stay and fight when you have no good villager killers and your villagers can't run away.

Persian elephants kill peasants dead. Not paying for the bronze age economic upgrades saves you nearly three elephants worth of food, and I can usually iron with Persians in about 20 minutes without having to fish; 23 minutes if I scout rush.

Persians have a _fantastic_ early iron age. Catapults, super elephants, great priests, the best ships in the game, and horse archers. The Persian game fades quite quickly later in iron, but it doesn't matter in singles, since they win the game right there against every other slow civ. In teams, you just gotta go for every gold spot and get your allies to come and mine them. Taking away the farm penalty still doesn't make Persians any good in late iron - but that's OK, if you have enough of the initiative.

Lastly, Mr Hanky, I suggest that you should certainly upgrade to catapults the second you turn iron with any civilization that can do so against anyone who is using an archer-based army(the only other thing the Persians _must_ research in iron is medicine). The splash damage is just too nice to overlook -the more so since Persians don't get ballistics. I seldom build horse archers unless I can build a dominating number of them - the Persian iron should start with a lot of elephants and priests. Get the horse archers after you've won the battles and need to find the enemy holdouts.

I recap:

1) If you have a half-way decent spot, tool rush heavily. Persians have the best tool-age economy of anyone (except Shang) when they can hunt.

2) Do not try to fight a protracted war in bronze. Persians have a poor unit mix and an unsatisfactory economy. _Do_ wall any narrow places that won't inconvenience your partners.

3) In early iron concentrate on denying the enemy gold. No army can fight the Persian army without gold-intensive units. Although the Persians still have a poor economy they have a wonderful unit mix. Continue to wall as much as possible.


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-03-99 09:58 AM ET (US)     9 / 73       
Where was Sheriff's guide posted? I want to read it ! thx neilkaz


Ender
Guest
posted 01-03-99 11:01 AM ET (US)     10 / 73       
Lets see persian gets all bronze age units except chariot archers/chariots. So then you'd say the best strat for all civs without chariot archers is just to right to iron? I still disagree, fast elephants/non-ballistic cats and short range horse archers still lose to bronze age units. The horse archers don't die as badly but iron jumping and using horse archers works against everyone. By the time you've reached iron your probably dead with persian, if I find your villagers you can't run and unless you are farming early which is a no no, I highly doubt your villagers are walled in.


Hyperion
Inactive
posted 01-03-99 02:17 PM ET (US)     11 / 73       
Actually, Ender, I think I agree with your suggestion. If you don't get chariot archers, you have a weak bronze, and should try to iron as quickly as possible.

If you have a military advantage in bronze this can be overcome to some extent. Persians, however, don't have any military advantage in the bronze age. Quite the contrary.

Persian composite archers are - by far - the worst composite archers in the game. And cavalry/camel rushes are stopped very efficiently by the one thing in the whole world Persians don't want their opponents to build. Camels are _owned_ by defensive priests. Add to this the fact that the Persian economy in late bronze is significantly weaker than any other civilizations, and I think you may begin to understand why the bronze age is a bad time for the Persians to fight.


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-03-99 07:36 PM ET (US)     12 / 73       
Macedonian don't get chariot archers . I really think they (if used right) have one of the strongest bronzes in the game. *****for iron though. Mace are best at taking territory and trashing cities in bronze. Hopefully one of your teammates can kill their fleeing villagers.

I like either the comp + hoplite or comp + stone thrower for mace in bronze. The hoplites are pretty close to unstopable in bronze age. It takes 120 chariots hit to kill one hoplite, ouch. It is vitally important to wall though as mace as their defense sucks.


Ender
Guest
posted 01-04-99 06:51 AM ET (US)     13 / 73       
but the point is persia also has one of the worst irons in the game. Their economy sucks in iron, their elephants aren't that much better than normal and they are hard for persians to afford, their horse archers are the worst in the game, they get average cav, they get good priests, they get non-ballistic cats with no heavy cats, they don't get scythe chariots and they get good infantry. They are at best an average iron age civ military wise, and they are by far the worst iron age civ economy wise. I'd think you'd want to end the game asap with them, which really means tool age, but is posible in bronze, and next to impossible in iron.

If you aren't boat fishing or farming how in the world do you survive past 25 minutes with persia, you can't hunt within your walls forever, and until iron you can't protect your villagers, you don't have the wheel, sounds like a bunch of dead villagers. And even if you do iron jump you probably have around 24-30 villagers with bad economy upgrades and the enemy who is bronze has 50-70 villagers with all bronze economy upgrades, you should lose even to his bronze army.


[This message has been edited by Ender (edited 01-04-99).]

Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-04-99 09:40 AM ET (US)     14 / 73       
Persians BLOW vs babs too. I had a game the other day where I was iron and fighting a iron bab. I had about 20 elephants and 10 mediocre priests. The bab had about 15 priests and 15 chariots archers. Pretty much all my priests got killed by chariot archers and all my elephants got converted. It sucked. Add to that I tributed 5,000 to minoan and assyrian teammates to try and save them...instead of them tributing me.

I did bronze at 13 mins with 26 real villagers(on hillcountry) and do real damage to a shang with camels though. Best thing I can say with persian is get all the econ upgrades as soon as possible and either spread out all over the map or wall in with some cats for defense.


Hyperion
Inactive
posted 01-04-99 01:23 PM ET (US)     15 / 73       
It's true, Ender. The Persian iron age - in general - is not overwhelming.

What you seem to be ignoring is that the _early_ Persian iron age is amazing. Most elephants aren't all that interesting against most bronze armies, which can just run away from them; but it's a lot harder to do that to Persian elephants. Researching ballistics & the iron age woodcutting & coinage & scythe chariot will certainly give you advantages over the Persian player. I don't dispute that. But it takes a lot of resources, and you need to fight a war, as well.

And if it takes you 25 minutes to get to iron with the Persians, Ender, well, you're just not trying. I've ironed with them in 22 minutes on hill country after building seven or eight scouts - and I had a lot more villagers than the opponents did, for some reason. Sure, in singles, you do want to finish the game in tool. Persians can do that. It doesn't always work out that way, especially in team games, though.

There is a window of at least five minutes when the Persian elephants are the best unit in the game, if you can get to iron at the same time as (or before) your opponents do. Massed priests will beat them, but that's about all that will; and not many people build a lot of priests by the end of bronze. The real trick at this stage is to make sure none of your opponents are playing Egyptian...because five minutes is a long time in RoR.


postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 01-04-99 03:25 PM ET (US)     16 / 73       
Not too sure on how much I agree with in Sheriffs guide, but I have used a unique strat for Persia in the past that has always worked amazingly well. I do believe that Persia Iron sucks toads, but the hunting bonus works wonders early on. Economy is the backbone of every game. If your economy sucks as bad as Persias does in Iron, then your at a disadvantage already. Fast Eles are still converted Eles. And food is the slowest resource to gather in Iron since farming is really you only option 90% of the time, which is the one resource you need most as Persia.


Janman516
Clubman
posted 01-04-99 04:52 PM ET (US)     17 / 73       
Got a chance to try Sheriff’s Persian strategy last night in RoR. Settings were 3 way FFA, Huge, Narrows, 100 pop, Random Civs, and standard Victory conditions. You guessed it, Persian for me, Mac and Shang for the other two.

At the start,I didn’t have game around my TC, but there was a forest about 7 tiles away and I found berries quickly. I found a herd of Gazelles by a forest and 2 dumbos on the other side of that forest. North of this forest I found shallows. Strange for Narrows, eh? Being that I wanted to Iron Jump, I didn’t cross but scouted out the rest of my island looking for game.

When I finished the first herd of Gazelle, having enough wood for a second pit I sent 5 hunters after the two dumbos. Low and behold, I find a Shang scout building a storage pit. I boned him to death before he finished building. I figured Shang must be on the other side of the shallows and decided to set up a scout rush. I figured the Shang was boat booming and set up a new wood location, unaware that I was so close. I also figured that Mac wouldn’t attack me, being that he was probably on the other side of Shang.

The two dumbos allowed me to tool quickly with 21 villagers, I built the stable and got armor and attack at my 2 pits. To my horror, I found not Shang but Mac on the other side. I could have put a dent in his wood operation for sure with my two scouts, but that would leave Shang a quick road into my camp. What to do? I found the Shang just as he hit bronze. I was able to waste only 4 peons before his camels got me. I walled my shallows and pumped out 7 camels and 4 cav and braced for a landing.

But the landing never came! No one attacked! I ironed first and started my long delayed boat boom. Except for a few Mac war galleys the ocean was clear. I figured I now had it made. Then it came, “Shang starts building a Wonder”. Uggghhhh. I checked achievements and found that very little skirmishing had occurred at all. Mac and I allied to take out the Wonder. Unfortunately, the food was not coming in for a massive pig and cat attack. I loaded up my camels and 3 villagers and sent them to the southern point of Shangs island. I built a TC, stable, and siege factory there. Shang evidently was not exploring his island too well.

The timer was now under 8 minutes. I was hampered by lack of wood and food. At my landing site, I had two pigs ready. 2 priests , 3 pigs and 5 cav coming over by transport. My triremes were taking Shang’s towers at the narrows. Mac was prepared too, having about 15 hoppers and 10 ST. We actually set up a pretty nifty joint attack. I sent the camels in from the south as Mac tore through the shallows. My camels were easily wasted by HA. But the HA came to investigate. They ran into my pigs. The pigs killed the HA (Persian pigs move almost as fast as HA ). Shang sent a group of heles and priests to take out my base.

Meanwhile, Mac ripped through the shallows and took out a major pack of HA. A third pack of Shang HA were also drawn out of Wonder Protection, searching for the remnents of my now destroyed base. My transport now landed between the shallows and my southern base. I thought they had a clear path to the wonder. But a stroke of luck for Shang found me landing smack in the middle of the returning HA pack. My two priests bought it. In fact only one pig and 2 cav survived. They made for the wonder with the remaining 3 Mac Hoppers and 5 ST.

Well I would like to say that we killed that Wonder; That I had perfectly executed The Persion Iron Boom. Nope, Nope, Nope! We missed by about 30 seconds. In hindsight, I probabally could have boomed, Shang never even built a dock on my ocean. Also, If I didn’t try my abortion of a scout rush and waste food on 7 camels and 4 cav I could have had a 20 minute instead of a 30 minute Iron. Those 10 minutes would have helped.

I was a bit miffed, after all, my change of plans based on finding a shang SP by my dumbos cost me 10 minutes. I asked Shang WTF he built a pit on my land, being miles away. “What pit, that was a range!” .

Ack, I think too much – Janman516


blank1
Inactive
posted 01-04-99 11:51 PM ET (US)     18 / 73       
imho persia is simple... HORRIBLE late game economy, superb early game economy, amazing hunting abilities and with the right map they have the fastest tool rush in the game, newbies wont do well with persia, experts who can multitask and micromanage well will with the right map unleash a tool rush better than shang, their iron military is well rounded but their disgusting economy makes it sorta crappy, the fast elephants really kick newbies butts.. they're pretty good against experts too but phants are containable ...
nice triremes but cmon no artisanship or wheel..

ugh they dont even get ballistics upgrade too tedious for me, i'll use em if i want fun tool/bronze rush possibilities


The_Sheriff
Clubman
posted 01-05-99 02:03 AM ET (US)     19 / 73       
Hehe Ender, persian isnt my favorite civ because they are the strongest civ, its my favorite because they have some fun units
To me, nothing is more hilarious than storming an enemy city with 4 or 5 dumbos when they are not expecting it. And really, noone usually even builds a temple and noone uses hoplites either, so I dont see why the elephants are so weak? If persian camels raid the enemy villagers at 14 minutes, the persians economy is going to be better than his, no matter what upgrades the opponent has. and of course you dont go iron while your enemy is fighting back. Most times they will wall in and hide, struggling to rebuild their damaged economy, giving you safe access to all the animals on the map. The persian will make a few extra town centers and iron with 40 villagers at 24-28 minutes. And since you already have stables built the only reason to have wood at all is for making new hunting pits and houses. so you can have all but 5 or 6 peasants working food and gold, that will give you plenty of war elephants to finish off those boring chariot archers =0


AE Kosh3
Inactive
posted 01-05-99 07:08 AM ET (US)     20 / 73       
Or you could take advantage of the hunting bonus and full on tool rush him off the map and never look back

but then, wheres the fun in that

-Kosher


Ender
Guest
posted 01-05-99 08:08 AM ET (US)     21 / 73       
Okay some replies... I don't think it takes 25 minute to iron, but it does take 25 minutes to iron, build up an iron age force and attack so that you have gained the offensive.

Sheriff- Yeah I agree persian are a blast to play, I used to play under the name Prince_of_Persia in AOE, I'd either do a nasty scout rush or I'd boom to 50 villagers and build about 20 elephants by around 25 minutes. It was fun but I certainly think I'd lose more than I'd win that way against good players. However I still feel if you get persian in a random civs game, and you are serious about winning the game, your better off tool rushing or bronze rushing to win.


I agree chariot archers are boring . Thats why I mess around with choson so much.


The_Sheriff
Clubman
posted 01-05-99 09:38 AM ET (US)     22 / 73       
I played 1v1 last night vs Tenzan, whom is a very good player. He took yamato and I was persia. I hadnt gotten a great map (few animals) but niether did tenzan apparantly, and we both shot for bronze at about 14 minutes. I Sent in my camels and nailed about 6 or 7 villies before they died, the second wave killed about 3 or 4 more. But as my 3rd rush got to him, he had compies out and my army was trashed. what to do now? Soon tenzan had an army of about 20 comps so i frantically built up a fewsiege shops as he was on the march towards my town. I just barely held my town, and knew the game was quickly turning to Tenzans favor. I was forced to stay on the defensive for the rest of the bronze fight. eventually I ironed, but just a minute sooner as my opponent. but I had cats now muaha and his compies were history, and I still had a bunch of camels to deal with his horse archers. I cleared my town with a very small force but ran into trireiems guarding the crossing. I sent a horde of peasants through the other crossing which I was currently guarding, and build some stables near his gold. I pumped out 2 war eles, and they killed all of his gold miners before he had a chance to escape. I built a few more stables and started pumping out eles and camels to battle his horse archers, heavy cavs, and priests. I quickly killed off the priests, and sent the eles straight for his houses, ignoring his agile horse archers. the rest is history, the eles bumped into his other gold mine which was at the end of a long peninsula, needless to say it was a bloody massacre there as well. My own priests owned tenzans priests and cavalry and finally he resigned.
Well Ender that game was hopeless in the bronze age, but my iron armies just dominated his. It may not always work out like that but I would say it does more often than not


belltower
Inactive
posted 01-05-99 10:59 AM ET (US)     23 / 73       
The sheriff says:
>noone usually even builds a temple

I think people with a Persian opponent are more likely to do so, though.

Personally, I'm a little surprised Phonecian eles don't get more press. The speed of the Persians is significant, but so is the lower cost of the Phoenician ones, and they have the economy to build more, upgrade, etc. And Phoenician ele archers keep those pesky horse archers away, and have the better sight range.


Apache47
Inactive
posted 01-05-99 07:30 PM ET (US)     24 / 73       
Question to the Sherrif:
Go straight for hunting or waste 120 wood to get that granary in stone?


Ya hya Chouhada!
"Long live the fighters"

Elijeh
Clubman
posted 01-05-99 09:28 PM ET (US)     25 / 73       
Hmmmm. I LOVED sheriffs guide. And i agree whole-heartedly that persia should shot for iron and elimanate all resistance.

Now to Adress Ender: Man you couldn't be more off the track. Persias Bronze tottaly sucks! the only good unit they have ar eCams/cavs, which many civs have, as well as compie sor CAs. their Compies totally suck. Look at it this way. the four mos tpopular civs in RoR totally dominate persias bronze. What four most popular? Shang, phoen, hittite and minoa. All these civs have Camels. they all have wheel. and they all have deadly archers. wanna take your persian bronze against my minoa bronze? HAH! Watch your damn army get smeared by 20+ compies while i dominate the seas with my boats, and flood your base withs Camels, cavs, stone throwers, and compies.
Now take persias iron against a bronze. Whoa! Those killer eles roast comps, Cams and STs. Not to mention a few scouts can keep your eles chasin vills. Only CA can mes with eles and big deal. i have 600 HP horrors killing anything thats not my color. Then i can always go to HA, or HHA. OR i hit the AE upgrade and flatten anythign that moves.
and should you try to defend your excuses to stay in bronze, remember if you tell your teammates your ironing and you need some food/gold/wood they WILL tribute you. Then you have the best economy cuz a powerhouse like Palmy could be tribbing you. So what bronze stops that? Priests? HA you get better'uns. CA? you get HA and AE and EA. Cavs? You got WE. STs? WE or CATS. Hell you'll dominate in iron.
Belltower:
Phoen Eles don't get the attention Persian eles get cuz ya don't notice their cost. And phoen is just toooooooo killer in iron anyway. Can we say Scythes? even without Meturluggy they rule. not to mention their economy just dominates


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