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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Which map do you like best right now?
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Topic Subject:Which map do you like best right now?
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SaSa408
Clubman
posted 02-12-01 02:05 PM ET (US)         
In playing RM games, which map do you like best? (Of course I know it may be influenced by which Civ you choose, but anyway...)

The ones I am enjoying the most right now are Continental and Large Islands.

I really love playing RM because there are so many choices of Civs and Maps.

Sara

AuthorReplies:
Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 02-19-01 09:31 AM ET (US)     26 / 31       
Hey wedsaz, have you ever considered lobbying for a career. Think about it.

Btw, just so you know, I have no reason to doubt that you created the Mino fast boom. Hell, why not...someone had to. Anyway good to see you and MBTC are still conversing.

ManBehindTheCurtain
Clubman
posted 02-19-01 04:15 PM ET (US)     27 / 31       
Hehe, thanks for the reminder Sumerian Leper. Probably I am a bit too critical of Wedsaz. He, like everyone else here, is just trying to have fun.

And Wedsaz, you are absolutely right about gunpowder. But once again, your love for the good argument . . . Ah, I should just leave this alone. It gets to be like picking at a scab or something. No good can come of it but I just can't seem to help myself.

You did not invent the Minoan fast boom strategy in AoE. You might have invented it in RoR. As Leper says, someone had to. It could just as well have been you. But a 16 villager, 24 fishing boat start in AoE was not viable. Not enough fish. Many maps, even huge coastal, don't have 24 fishing spots on the whole map, much less in front of your 2 docks. The super overabundance of fishing spots arrives with RoR and is followed shortly thereafter by the fishing boat boom strategies (maybe not invented by but certainly first extensively written about by Out4Blood). Sorry, Wedsaz, but your gunpowder is all wet if you think you invented a fishing boat boom strategy in AoE.

And I think this can be easily demonstrated. You see, AoE still exists and I and several other people here still play it. I played a coastal yesterday where I had about 8 fishing boats. That's the most I have had in a long time. I had a boat on every fishing spot I could find near my starting spot. Eventually some of those 8 moved to a second spot but some never found another fish. I invite anyone to try to find 24 fishing spots in the area that they control on any AoE map. I suspect that even a skilled fishing boat boomer like BlitzkreigComin would soon abandon that strategy in AoE. In AoE you have to get the majority of your food from the land.

Finally, and I think you know this but it must have slipped your mind in your rush to tell the story of how you invented the 40 villager start, but early AoE was exclusively 50 pop. A few people had discovered the secret but it is the first patch that allowed the mass of people to alter their pop limit. And then, even with the change, most people went to something like 75 or 100. It was the release of RoR which brought the change to a "default" population of 200 (and the 100 villager boom).

I suppose I could throw a couple more logs on this fire but I have picked this scab enough for now (another viciously mixed metaphor).

I await your reply.


Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 02-19-01 04:29 PM ET (US)     28 / 31       
Lemme jump in here and say that the whole reason I don't like AoE more than RoR is the boom factor. Conti and Medit have lots more fish than Coastal. What AoE maps has that RoR doesn't is the land wildlife.

I am amazed when I watch Leper play AoE that there are sometimes 6 dumbos or more just standing around your camp. Also the fish that are in AoE are shorefish and there is a higher gathering rate in AoE for shorefish. In AoE it is typically better to SF than dock.

Therefore I feel that AoE is more of a rush game, and RoR is more of a boom game. RoR has the shore fish toned down, as well as lots of fish off of the coast to keep several fishing boats busy for quite a while. RoR maps have lots more forests to feed these large amounts of fishing boats and navy. The added queing features in RoR only add to this booming bliss. Scythe is a great unit in high pop, large 100+ villager economy games.

So Assy/Shang rule AoE with fast times, and Mino/Hittite rule RoR with big booms and militaries.

Just my "humble" opinion.


Can you survive the Blitzkrieg?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 02-19-01 05:32 PM ET (US)     29 / 31       
ManBehindTheCurtain:
The fastboom's goal is different from RoR's ordinary (larger) booms. Instead of trying to achieve a powerful long-term economy, the goal is to get to bronze as fast as possible, with enough resources for a large army - and we'll see about other food sources and higher villie counts, once we have multiple TCs and an army capable of stopping CA rushes.
 
Given this goal, 2-3 FBs per fishing spot is very acceptable, more if the spot is further. FBs' speed being about twice as fast as villies and their greater carrying capacity, distance is much less of a problem - fishing spots within 10 tiles are still very good, 20 tiles good, 30-40 tiles reasonable.
 
Oh yes, I do know the pop limit is/was 50 in AoE trial. 40 villies+FBs pop is what I have when I *reach* bronze. I saw 100-150 pop regularly during wars in AoE trial, due to an (apparently lost) art called "overbuilding". In RoR, I usually try to haggle down to 100 pop, since I'm used to a low pop and can't get them to go below that... If it was up to me, I'd still play at 50 pop, that's where the game is closest to balanced.
 
LoL about the scab thing, I feel the same about this whole argument. Hopefully soon I can just show you and get it over with.
 
BlitzkreigComin:
I saw plenty of shore fishers. It only speeds their bronze time by about a minute. Problem with shore fishing is that it's still a land economy, and they need to build up their villie population before bronze. The distance to good shorefish grounds is large, villies are slow, sending just 1 isn't worth the pit. You can't really shorefish in tool, your villies are too vulnerable to scout ships and various tool military. So:
 
1. You can only really shorefish in stone and during the tool upgrade.
2. You lose a lot of villie time walking to shore, and will probably lose it walking back ine arly tool or you're lose the villies.
3. You can only have 2 villies efficiently working a shorefish spot, and it's extremely rare to find more than 3 such spots close enough together to pit. More likely 2 sf spots.
4. You'll need about 8 sf spots to make your villies and get to bronze. Even if you're lucky enough to find them, you'll probably need 3-4 pits to use them. That's 360-480w.
 
I did the math. Considering the wood and build time but not the walk, it'll take you about twice as many villie-seconds to shorefish 8 spots than it would to make 2 docks and 24 FBs, for the same food.
 
Just a thought, but have you ever tried RoR on 50 pop? Maybe you'd get the same kind of rush game as AoE had. No point in building up more than so much if the pop limits you anyway, right?

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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 02-19-01 07:29 PM ET (US)     30 / 31       
wedsaz:

Ya don't have to preach to me about the principle of booming. TRUST ME I KNOW -- lol.

As for shore fishing in RoR I think you've gotta do some on Conti to win, but not on Medit. On a Conti map it is very possible to shore fish and get great times vs. opponents that dock and do fishing boats as their sole food source after initial berries.

In fact my best games on Conti is where I can have 4-5 on Shore fish near a forest. I forgo the granary at the first and can get a dock up 1:00 earlier. Therefore I always can hit the Tool button between 8:30-9:00. Once the SF are gone those villas are close to the woodpile to change careers. With this strat I usually put 5 on berries as I start to Tool for the food for Tool army and to Bronze immediately. My pop is 35-39 with this strat compared to the 42-45 I usually do as a standard berries start with a goal of a 12:00 Tool.

As for 50 pop games.... they sux and resux. I ALWAYS have a 50+ pop in Tool and 100+ pop in Bronze. I am getting very effective at hitting the 200 pop limit by 30:00. I'm more concerned about pop limit times rather than Iron Age times usually. I don't think I would enjoy managing that small of an economy and military.... the game would be very slow to me. And there are still lots of players that know how to get their pop well over 200. It is easier in RoR than AoE because you can still queue units after you are popped out. I frequently will have 20-40 military buildings queued waiting for me to dip down under 200 so I can get more going.

ManBehindTheCurtain
Clubman
posted 02-19-01 08:52 PM ET (US)     31 / 31       
Wedsaz-

I am quite pleased to agree with you on the issue of population. I too prefer 50. I think of the population 50 game as the Director's cut. In truth, however, I very seldom get to play 50. 200 is the de facto default population and I (and everyone else playing on the Zone) end up playing that a lot.

Blitzkreig and other big pop lovers, please understand that I am not saying that I am right and that you are wrong. I am just saying what I enjoy. If you like 200, more power to you. I have had lots and lots of fun playing 200 pop games. I just feel as though I have had more fun playing smaller maps and smaller pops. In fact, one of the few new features in RoR which I liked was the 25 pop option. And have I mentioned? I love tiny.


Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
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