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Topic Subject:Civilisation Bonuses
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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 10-28-00 07:24 AM ET (US)         
Some civilisation bonuses are amazing, like Shang -30% villager costs, but some are hopeless, like Hittite +4 war ship range when their best ship is War Galley.

Please tell me what you think are useful bonuses, useless bonuses and bonuses you would like to see (like I want to see a way better Minoan land bonus, Minoans are the worst civ on land!)

AuthorReplies:
Dave
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 06:18 PM ET (US)     26 / 67       
wedsaz:

1) Don't try to catch up? Don't worry. With that strat, you probably won't be *able* to catch up to a good boomer. Seems that against a good boom, even a fast tool attack just puts a dent in their econ, but then because of their econ's size, they recover very fast and retaliate hard. By then you are cooked because you don't have the econ to match. No econ = no military = gg

2) 12 minute bronze ok maybe but not 11 minute bronze ... (I'm trying to get that 12 minute bronze - no luck so far)

3)/4) Yes, as you say - very thin on wood. Dangerously low ...

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 06:39 PM ET (US)     27 / 67       
wedsaz:

Here is a play by play of your strat vs. anyone that can boom.

I boom to 25 reals and 17 fishing boats for a TTL Pop of 42. This is a very basic boom. I Tool in 12:00 and Bronze in 15:00. At 13:00 I have 6-8 Scout ships at your docks and you have no more fb's. This is everyday Zone play.

So my question is what can you mass to beat me before the 12-13 min mark. I have 1000 wood and 900 food at this point. In fact, I will have more fb's than you, and I will keep mine.

Whatever attack I'm afraid you would bring would be too little to slow the econ down and I would run over you with an EASY win.

Times have changed maybe wedsaz. Do we need to start a "wedsaz fund" here on the forums to buy you an old junker computer with Windows so we can see these demonstrations?

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 06:55 PM ET (US)     28 / 67       
Dave:
1a. Exactly, you can't catch up so trying would only result in defeat. That means we have to find another way of beating them than to out-econ them.
1b. Tool units aren't nearly as good at what they do as bronze units are. Maybe the right bronze units could skewer an opponent that tool units barely graze?
2. 12 mins bronze with the minoan fastboom. I've done 11 mins with the persian strat, but it doesn't have the huge villie lag after villie 7 because of the hunting food. Hunting is a bit hard to do though, I usually mess it up and chase the gazelles away instead of killing them...
3. Yup yup, dangerously low, but it should be enough. Oh btw, do you take villies off wood to build houses and stuff? I have a single villie assigned to build things, he has to build them just before they're needed too. Earlier and you're spending wood that could have gone into earlier boats, later and you're getting housed. Also I usually stop making FBs sometime during the tool upgrade, or I *won't* have enough wood when I get to tool. Oh and make sure you stick your wood pit *into* the forest, with no space, for greater chopping efficiency. This strat is tricky isn't it?
 
Just a thought, but maybe making 2 extra vills in stone would be a good adaptation for RoR? You can probably spare the extra 40 secs of *possible* bronze time (unlike the assy CA rushing days), and the 18% extra wood would make things much smoother. Heck maybe it would even be a bit faster with an extra villie or two, since there could be less delay in tool.

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Dave
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 07:15 PM ET (US)     29 / 67       
wedsaz:

I never take vils off of wood to make houses. They keep on cranking out the wood non-stop. At first, the vils coming out of the TC make houses as needed. Later, when the berry guys' picking is going good and the TC has 2 vils in the pipe, I use the berry guys to make houses so that the woodies can keep on working. That way I get constant vil production and constant fb production. I found that this really helps get faster bronze times. I make sure that I don't get housed. Of course, I pit as close to that forest as possible to minimize travel distance. I never hunt. The time wasted chasing those gazelles around is too much overhead. I prefer to make a granary right next to the berries.

Of course, I don't build many fb during tool upgrade. I check the coming tool time at the TC against the food count. I make sure that the food count is "just" a little under par. i.e. if tool is 50% then I want about 300-350 food. I adjust fb production according to this and wood availability.

Around 50%-60% tool, I make a barracks. Then I assign two groups of my wood vils (at least 5 or 6 in each group) to #1 and #2.

When I hit tool, I have 900 food +/- 100/200. I have usually 400-500 wood (300 if I screwed up badly and sometimes 600 if executed well). Those two groups then build the stable and market at the same time.

So if my timing is good, I hit the bronze button about 15-20 seconds after I tool.

While the bronze buildings are going up, I make scout ships, an archery and get tech upgrades.

While bronzing, if I can manage it, I try to mount a small tool attack.

[This message has been edited by Dave (edited 10-31-2000).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 07:36 PM ET (US)     30 / 67       
Dave:
I assume what you said about berries was for berry-based strats, and that you'd make an exception on your no-hunting rule when playing persian, other than that it looks fine. If you still can't get good bronze times from the fastboom strat with mino, maybe they changed the fishing rate in the patch? I'm starting to suspect that.

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darius_the_mede
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 11:53 PM ET (US)     31 / 67       
You all must be playing a different game or something, " starving for food and wood" "fast tool" ?? I had none of these with a pit first boat boom. Granted it does delay villie production for at least 3/4 minutes into the game, but your only making 12 villies and your gonna be rolling in it if done right. I tested it 4 times so far and I like it. Each time I bronzed at 14 give or take a few seconds. Now thats not the best of bronze times obviously but I had so much wood and food coming in, I barely could get rid of it fast enough. I followed his fastboom exactly, except I didn't build my house by the docks, to suseptible to boat attacks. I had a very late tool, but like wedsaz said, its followed by a fast bronze. I'm gonna try it a few different ways and practice it to see if I can get it down to the supposed 12 minutes. I usally moveed 2/3 villies to berries while tooling. I like and think it works fine. Maybe not against experts unless you have it down to a science or somehing. Cause Experts could really take advatage of that situation. But if you wall in ASAP like in wedsaz strat you should be fine against tool rushes. 2 mminutes into bronze I owned the sea and land. So if I could get this bronze to 12 minutes man this would be a killer strat. I mean its like a shang bronze with twice the Econ.

MSN-IM - king_zoser@hotmail.com
E-mail Me - laststop@ematic.com
"Great minds have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 11-01-00 03:14 AM ET (US)     32 / 67       
darius:

Don't make yourself look any dumber than you are already starting to sound. The strat doesn't work. Get on the Zone and I will show you.

NO WOOD FOR NAVY = DEFEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 12 Real villas in Stone - LOL - LOL - LOL!!!!

I AM starting to think I am playing a different game than what people spew about around here!

darius_the_mede
Clubman
posted 11-01-00 12:34 PM ET (US)     33 / 67       
I'm starting to think your a cocky shot-mouth Jack-Ass that I always thought you were. Criticize IDEA's not people, just because I disagree with you doens't make me wrong. I had tons of wood coming in along with pleanty of food. Maybe you should get on the zone, you obviously need some more experience.

MSN-IM - king_zoser@hotmail.com
E-mail Me - laststop@ematic.com
"Great minds have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 11-01-00 04:36 PM ET (US)     34 / 67       
darius:

The reason I laugh is all I do is play on the Zone. All I play is expert games and all I do is win 90% of them. I play everyday and I win everyday. Maybe if I ever saw anybody here on the Zone you could graciously show me why this strat works---because it doesn't. I know what works on the Zone BECAUSE I PLAY ON THE ZONE!

I get tired of hearing babblings about strats that don't simply work. I criticize the strat, and you saying that you don't what game I'm playing because you had "all these resources" with 12 real villas makes you look like the jack ass.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 11-01-00 05:51 PM ET (US)     35 / 67       
darius:
Do you have AoE or RoR? and do you have the patch?
 
(Checking to see if maybe they *are* playing a different game...)

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[This message has been edited by wedsaz (edited 11-01-2000).]

RageOMatic
Clubman
posted 11-01-00 07:58 PM ET (US)     36 / 67       
The best solution for winning a medit game is a team strat. I am usually macedonian for 2 reasons:

1. Cheap seige
2. A good economoy (market upgrades, gov upgrades, etc)

I play more or less like I do on hills. I make 26 vills, no boats, and when i hit tool i boom 4 more vill out.

I usually use shorefish since there are always tons of them in medit.

I usually bronze by 13-14 mins if im doing well. while everyone else has usually 10-20 more boats them I, they are usually so obsessed with getting the water they don't think about land army until long after.

While in tool or bronzing, i send 2 or 3 villies over to the enemies. I build up a stable or 2 and once i'm bronze i just pump out 4-5 cavalry. Sending each one right to their gold miners and wood cutters. Cutting out the gold mines usually means the death of any minoan player (almost always found on any medit game). And taking out wood to any civ is paralying. Anyway, next i quickly bring on the S/T and hoppers to take out their buildings.

Usually by 18 mins, their town is long gone.

Meanwhile, my other partner(s) work on navy, and I just work at killing the enemies on land.

I have not lost a game where I played like this yet. Most boomers aren't very good and bronze after 15 or 16 minutes.

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 11-01-00 08:05 PM ET (US)     37 / 67       
wedsaz:

One thing I have thought of is the life cycle of the game. If this strat was used in the days of AoE with a 50 pop and lower villager numbers in Stone it might be a very effective strat.

In RoR today villager numbers are high for even the rushers. If people are gonna rush, they do a "safe" Tool rush meaning they make close to the same amount of villas, but they attack in Tool, and don't compromise Bronze times.

I have seen several failed strategies that involve fewer villagers in the Stone Age.

In Zone play today populations are very high. I rarely see someone have fewer than 36 villagers in Stone on a water map. Gameplay has advanced to the point giving true vintage rushers a very small window of time to put their opponent out of the game. Average people are achieving 11:30 - 12:30 Tool times and Bronzing under 15:00 with these big economies.

I know I rarely, RARELY have a pop under 60 by 18:00, and sometimes my pop is over 100 by 20:00. Any strat that proposes so few real villagers and an undefended fishing fleet in a game of huge pops and huge navy wars is a flawed strat in today's gameplay.

It is flawed because with your strat you must defeat your oponent totally before he Bronzes. Even if you kill half of his woodies he still has a bigger economy than yours, and his retaliation will end the game very easily.

I can see how on paper and relying on memory there appears to be a bigger window for you to Bronze fast and mass compies, but the worst your opponent is going to suffer is trade a few of his 23-27 woodies as he runs to the sea for protection or builds towers/military buildings and his forward builders are gonna be constructing trouble for your TTL pop of 10-12 woodies and 2-3 gold miners. By the time you research compies and your few compies chase villas all over, chances are with no fight on the sea he has massed 1000-1200 wood, food will be 1000+ entering Bronze for him. That means massed CA's quickly. He will mass more CA's than you will Compies.

It is very hard for a small econ to beat a large econ in today's game. Players are very skilled at micromanging large economies, and this strat isn't suited for today's play.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 11-01-00 08:52 PM ET (US)     38 / 67       
BlitzkreigComin:
For the minoan fastboom, I agree. It might be possible to win with it in RoR, but the odds are against. It worked great in the assy CA rushing days though, and continue to work well in "classic" AoE where assy rushers are still the norm.
 
My persian strat has better chances in RoR, I designed that one with the late tool rushes and late bronze times in mind. Due to putting a few villies on hunting, it doesn't have the huge villie delay before the boats bring in enough food. It has more "real" villies, faster tool/bronze times (8-9 mins and 11-13 mins respectively, depending on skill), and a more mobile early-bronze attack (cavs plus a scout). A small pack of (unupgraded!) slingers can take out houses once the town is emptied, and perhaps take out walls so the cavs can get in. This is all very low investment, so most of your econ can still be looped back into its own growth, or turned to the sea. I haven't fully explored this one, but I do know one thing: don't get carried away with the hunting, even if there's tons of it like I did the time we played. A pack of 4 gazelles or a pair of eles is enough.
 
I'm also starting to think a heavier version of the old assy CA rush might be good. If the assy player booms to a higher villie count in stone, staying on land of course, he might have a faster bronze time with a much bigger econ than assy rushers used to have. Few things in bronze kill villies as well as massed CAs, as you probably know.

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HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 11-01-00 09:04 PM ET (US)     39 / 67       
I know wedsaz is about to point out that 30 compies will beat CA, but I will point out that with more CA, the enemy can keep your compies busy while running all over the map and decimating your econ, and they are too fast for compies to stop.

oh, hey, he already posted


HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?

[This message has been edited by HonoredMule (edited 11-01-2000).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 11-01-00 09:15 PM ET (US)     40 / 67       
HonoredMule:
LoL, if you have 16 villies in early bronze I wouldn't recommend spreading them out anyway, and walls can stop CAs long enough to train a fresh batch of compies wherever you expand to during bronze. Not that any of this matters in RoR, because the last thing I'd do against these boomers is compie rush.
 
As for keeping 30 minoan compies busy, the only way to do that in bronze is mass STs or giving them your town. The former is expensive and can be easily countered with cavs/camels, and the latter is just plain expensive especially when using wood-heavy units such as CAs.
 
You knew I was going to say something like that, right?

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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 11-01-00 09:31 PM ET (US)     41 / 67       
wedsaz:

You have a valid point about an Assy boom to mass CA's. Last night I played a 3v3 Conti Random civs. I got Assy and boomed to 42 villas in Stone. I started making Archery Ranges in Tool and early Bronze. My Bronze time was somewhere around 16:00. When I got the wheel I had 7 archery ranges and boomed from them the rest of the game. I went through 2 opponents, Roman and Egyptian, with my only challenge being Roman Sentry Towers. My pop was around 140-150 during Bronze with around 80-85 villas and the rest was CA's. (Oops I also had 12-14 War Galleys also to secure the sea)

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 11-01-00 09:37 PM ET (US)     42 / 67       
BlitzkreigComin:
Cool! What was your tool time?

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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 11-01-00 10:05 PM ET (US)     43 / 67       
Tool time was somewhere around 12:30 - 13:00. It was a lil slower than I liked, then I got greedy in Tool and made 4-5 more villas while fighting on sea with my navy. I usually only make 3 villas in Tool, but I decided I wanted more wood in Bronze.

I tend to feel better about being late to Bronze if I have a navy to protect my woodies at the shore on Conti. I have also learned that attacks on Conti are a little slower on the water, so I can build 4-5 docks and have good spacing for fishing for the rest of the game and usually get away with it.

darius_the_mede
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 00:17 AM ET (US)     44 / 67       
BlitzkreigComin:
I didn't have only 12 villies in the whole game you idiot, This was only in stone. I made a few more in tool and cranked out more as I could. I don't know what to tell you. This strat might not work as effectivly in every situation, but I had pleanty food and wood and gold, when I tried it. I used RoR with the patch on the zone. And you didn't criticize the strat in your reply you called me stupid and dumb, and that i don't know what i'm talking about. Your only deluding yourself.

MSN-IM - king_zoser@hotmail.com
E-mail Me - laststop@ematic.com
"Great minds have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein

Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 02:39 AM ET (US)     45 / 67       
AH ah ah...attack ideas not people. Like this:

darius: Your constant whining is really beginning to annoy me. Notice how I did not resort to name calling. I simply stated how your blubbering irritates me. Ok, now you try it.

HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 04:27 AM ET (US)     46 / 67       
lol

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 04:12 PM ET (US)     47 / 67       
darius:

Please play me on the Zone -- I'm on every night. I'm sure that after I played you I would have a better understanding where you are coming from. I have played with about everybody on the forums, including wedsaz, except you and peter I think.

I have constantly seen Zone players leave the forums because they aren't willing to listen to people boast strats that don't work, and criticize good Zone players strats.

I get angry when people that don't play the game tell me how to play the game. I have adapted my game to the point where I am very effective in today's Zone play. I use several strats, and have several strats used against me. The group of friends I currently play with have all played on the Zone for a couple of years. They have seen everything, done everything, and keep coming back for more fun.

These people will never, never post here to argue with people that don't understand Zone play. It also makes me angry when the resident analyst criticizes every strat that any Zone player (Popov, Hyper, Blackheart, Vlad, Honored Mule, Wild1234, ElijahDL, Dave, Leper, Man of War, True Augustus, Combat Villager, vmay, to name a few) has posted since I have been here. I have played with all of these players, and a lot of us joke about wedsaz's strats on the Zone when we play because he is so far removed from the game.

So -- I tell everyone that this "Minoan Fast Boom" strat is outdated and couldn't beat a good Rook on the Zone. I'm not sure why I have never seen you on the Zone, but until I see you play, and you continue defend weak, worthless strats I won't really respect anything you have to say about Zone play strats.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 04:40 PM ET (US)     48 / 67       
BlitzkreigComin:
Give the poor guy a break. The minoan fastboom strat still works very well on the Zone, and isn't outdated - in AoE, where assy CA rushing is the norm. In RoR the strat landscape is different, and this strat isn't as well adapted, but frankly it could still beat a good rook and probably most intermediates, with some adaptations (like rushing with something earlier and faster than compies - maybe a cav/camel rush, or a massive scout rush).
 
Your assy bronze times seem somewhat slower than I would have gone for. I'd probably still shoot for a 14 min bronze or less with assy in RoR, although bumping tool time to 10-11 mins unlike the old assy rushers. You had 50 CAs, but I think 20 CAs would be more than enough to hunt down defenseless villies, especially if you add 2-3 cavs to take out pesky slingers. Maybe there's something I'm not getting? (please explain why you need the huge econ)

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HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 04:59 PM ET (US)     49 / 67       
I would think the same, except that I've tried it, only to have 10 CA ready to greet me, and by the time they're gone, there's 40 more to wipe me out, and more coming...that's just a 1v1 analysis...good ppl will have wiped my home base out while my 2 CA were all on this away mission, and my econ wouldn't be able to spread out and flee nearly as good as the bigger boomers'. Ultimately, the boom is still big, but it's more of a tool boom followed by a bronze "as is convenient." The hardest part of this kind of boom, is that you have a LOT to keep track of, and I'm not talking trigger button speed...you have to remember the stuff first, and plan ahead to know what you will be needing to do when. "sure, HM, we already knew that, it's part of any strat." True, but this time it's on a massive scale...one that's a lot harder to kill, even if you do get your army first.

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 11-02-00 05:12 PM ET (US)     50 / 67       
HonoredMule:
On the other hand, a more compact econ tends to be more efficient since you don't have to walk to those far away resource sites, and you don't need to spread out your defenses...
 
Sounds to me like you were too slow, which is a common problem (to this day I never ever won with assy). How many villies, boats and archeries did you make, and did you really need that many?

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