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Topic Subject:Civilisation Bonuses
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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 10-28-00 07:24 AM ET (US)         
Some civilisation bonuses are amazing, like Shang -30% villager costs, but some are hopeless, like Hittite +4 war ship range when their best ship is War Galley.

Please tell me what you think are useful bonuses, useless bonuses and bonuses you would like to see (like I want to see a way better Minoan land bonus, Minoans are the worst civ on land!)

AuthorReplies:
darius_the_mede
Clubman
posted 10-28-00 03:29 PM ET (US)     1 / 67       
"hopeless"?? I hardly think Hittie's +4 bonus is useless. It's great for tool scout ship rushes. That +4 can help alot if you know what your doing. Your right tho, Mino isn't that great of a land civ. Acually Wedsaz and some other people made a list of changes that they think should be made to balence out AoE. You can check it out at Honoredmule's site : http://rorcomplete.cjb.net /. While your there, you my as well check out MY Map Design article . It's in the articles section

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"Great minds have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein

Chris_Hani
Clubman
posted 10-28-00 04:43 PM ET (US)     2 / 67       
I think another one is the Persian's +30% hunting but then -30% farming, that makes very little sense, I mean, it limits the Persian's capabilities in the Late Bronze and early Iron Ages. With the new patch, the usefullness of the Shang's -30% villager cost really isn't very effective until late in Stone and early in Tool, mostly because of how little food they start with, but it is extremely effective later on. Those are the only real disadvantages or pointless bonuses to really any extent. The problem I've always had with AOE is the unit balance, that's why I really want ES to re-make it with new graphics and such, more units and techs, and better balance.
darius_the_mede
Clubman
posted 10-28-00 10:38 PM ET (US)     3 / 67       
I rarly EVER farm. Last resort only. It's the worst way to get food in AoE. Pesia's hunting bonus is a very strategic and powerful bonus. It lets a player get great bronze times on land AND water maps. only a few civs are good on both water and land-only maps. And aside from what most people say, Persia has a decent Bronze army and Iron as well. The -30% farming i guess is to sort of balence it a bit, but intermediates and experts only farm as a LAST RESORT, but if their good, the game should be over before that happens. Shangs bonus, sky rockets em into bronze so that the -30% villie cost, is no longer needed. Their -30% villie bonus IS very effective from the start of the game until you reach mid bronze. You start with less food to make it fair. Other civs start with 200 so they can evenly make 4 villies, so shangs food was dropped to 160 so they could make 4 villies with no food left. Acually that was either changed in a patch or in RoR, cause you used to start with 200 with shang at one time, if I remember correctly. Also Shangs double wall HP is great for stopping rushes. With the changes proposed in that petition thingy, it will make AoE a pretty balenced game. Not only that, but my favorite part, new strats to develop! I hope they get enough sigs.

MSN-IM - king_zoser@hotmail.com
E-mail Me - laststop@ematic.com
"Great minds have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-29-00 00:33 AM ET (US)     4 / 67       
In AoE persian had +66% faster hunting (0.45 + 0.30 = ms/es math) and -30% farming rate.
 
In RoR persian lost the -30% farming rate and gained the slinger, camel and armored elephant. They also benefit from tower shield and logistics adding to their 3rd best legions in the game (after roman and choson), and of course the mighty temple techs. There's also supposedly 2 guaranteed hunting spots within the same distance from your TC as the 2 usual berry patches, which means persian can make good use of their hunting bonus early in every game.
 
The patch toned down shang and phoenie, the two fastest civs after persian. In addition, partly due to this, people boom to huge econs, tooling around 11 mins and bronzing around 15 mins. Compare that with the 10:30 *effective* bronze times I've seen from a few persian experts (11-13 mins is fairly easy with persian), and you can see the potential for a very damaging cav or camel rush.
 
I can see a simple +5 farming rate per farm upgrade having the following effects:
1. Sumie becomes a major economic power, which is not too bad considering their fairly thin tech tree, lack of military bonuses aside from the fast-firing cats, and of course they'd still be slow since they can't farm before tool and still have to cut wood, get all the upgrades, etc. Sure they'd have a lot of food in bronze but cats, CAsand camels cost a lot of wood and gold too. They'd have to use infantry to make full use of their economic bonus, but then what's the point?
2. Minoan gets a nice land bonus, or alternative to fighting a major naval war.
3. Farming in general becomes more worthwhile once you have the farming and woodcutting upgrades. On wet maps, that helps civs which lack naval bonuses. Notice the main civs on wet maps (minoan, yammy, hittite, roman, shang) all have bonuses that apply to naval warfare?
4. More food available in iron (due to nicely fast farming) helps the eles, and helps afford food-heavy ultimate upgrades.
5. Some new raids might aim at the farms rather than the woodies, you can kill a lot of wood very quickly due to their low hps to wood cost ratio.
6. While farm improvements affect dry maps (hillz, highland, inland) quite a bit, keep in mind that all civs get this improvement, and that until mid-bronze other food sources are still preferable. Also, farm upgrades cost a lot of food to start with, so whoever gets them will be slower to rush. Sort of like boat booming, basically.
 
Hopless? I'd have to say greek's warboat bonus is the worst, followed by carth's transport bonus. No wait, palmy's camel bonus tops the list. Yeah, those would be the 3 bottom bonuses.
 
As for what bonuses I'd like to see, I think darius already mentioned the delta list.

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CenturionZ_1
Clubman
posted 10-29-00 07:40 AM ET (US)     5 / 67       
Persia, good and quick economy??? Ok, they might me good in stine and tool but by bronze they are the worst economical civ there is! They lack ALL the bronze and iron market upgrades! Anyway, one good bonus is Phoenician's juggernaught and catapult triemes extra fire rate. Using maths and play testing I found that 1 v 1, a Phoenician c. trieme (with all the upgrades) can beat a normal fire galley (with all upgrades) if in the right hands. What I think is the most useless bonus? Palmyran super villager. In the long term it is a big loss in food. They work 20% faster and cost 50% more? Oh yeah and Palmrya's trade bonus. Who in the right mind is going to trade in a nultiplayer game??? Anyway those are more of my views.
Dark_Avenger
Clubman
posted 10-29-00 10:17 AM ET (US)     6 / 67       
Civ bonus give some "personnality"(difference) between one civ and others. I think greeks and shang deserve a third and maybe a fourth civ bonus.

Against the computer, I always think there's no bad civs but bad players, I suppose it's not the same at the Zone.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-29-00 04:49 PM ET (US)     7 / 67       
CenturionZ_1:
Persian has the fastest econ until about 14-18 mins (depending how fast the other civs get the bronze market upgrades), and since they bronze much before any of the other civs they can TC-boom to stay ahead econmically well into iron. Who cares if yammy woodies cut 20% faster with artisanship if persian has twice as many villies by then? Not to mention what will happen when persian has cavs among yammy's villies for 3-4 mins before yammy even bronzes.
 
Palmyran villies work about 44% faster, not 20% (MS-math at work again). What that means is your econ grows nearly 50% faster until other civs could TC boom, which is a HUGE advantage. Palmy can tool in 7 mins, then proceed to bronze in 14 mins with 20 villies.
 
Who in his right mind trades in a multiplayer game? Anyone who knows the game and wants to win, that's who. Once your gold mines are gone, trade can still bring in a lot of gold, making the difference between horse archers and bowmen.
 
You seem to have a lot to learn, CenturionZ_1. Did you just get the game?
 
Dark_Avenger:
I agree greek needs some serious improvement, but shang with 4 bonuses? That's either a deathwish or you're planning on giving them 2% faster priests!
 
On the zone in RM, greek is a "bad civ". Carth and choson aren't too great either. While it's possible to win with weaker civs, given matching skill levels some civs are better than others.

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darius_the_mede
Clubman
posted 10-29-00 08:40 PM ET (US)     8 / 67       
Your telling me, Shangs powerful enough. In team games with slingshot strats and such that free tribute comes in very handy. Whatever you do don't let Honoredmule hear you say Palmy sucks. Boy, oh boy, your in for it then. And I agree with him. I can bronze in 12/13 minutes with em, and them have a good bronze army as well. Pamly would be great against everyone except Shang and Persia. It would be tough on Assy. But it would be pretty even on Yammy. What the heck are you doing sending a Cat Trieme to fight a Fire Galley anywho? Triemes acompany Cat T's, if you don't you'll lose a lot of boats that way. Sea Trading is tough to setup in the heat of a game, but it's worth it in the long run. I usally don't make any until mid bronze. Did you just get the game? Don't start shooting you mouth off until you get some "playing time" in. Believe me. I learned the hard way.

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"Great minds have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-30-00 08:46 PM ET (US)     9 / 67       
darius:
I usually don't make trade boats until about mid-bronze either. Once I did make some though, I was sumie and my ally was yammy, and neither of us had any gold mines! We started using trade boats in stone age, as soon as we found we had no gold, and by bronze he had enough for a dozen cavs and a quick victory. Trade boats ROCK!
 
Nice palmy bronze time! Hey, could you do something for me? I've been wondering how well palmy could do with a variation on my fastboom strat, if they're as good with is as phoenie was it could be pretty scary... not to mention effective, with fire galleys roaming the seas by the time other boomers reach mid-bronze, etc.

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darius_the_mede
Clubman
posted 10-30-00 09:41 PM ET (US)     10 / 67       
Anything man. So what's your fastboom strat? I'll try it out. Too bad I couldn't record the game like in AoK.

MSN-IM - king_zoser@hotmail.com
E-mail Me - laststop@ematic.com
"Great minds have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 10-30-00 09:56 PM ET (US)     11 / 67       
First of all I have tried the Palmy fast-boom strat of pitting, then dock booming and it is not too effective. They are down the list after Minoan, Phoenician, Roman, Shang, Yamato, etc... These days pit starting on wood isn't gonna win you any games against anybody good...not enough woodies plain and simple.

I can beat Palmy on any given day with Minoan, Shang, Yamato, Hittite, or Phoencian EASY on a water map. (Unless Popov is the other player - LOL)

Palmy just is a hard civ to play. There are a lot of better civs to work with even on wet maps.

Trade boats suck because usually the team with the stronger economy has the water, and therefore bigger armer = more land = more gold. Gold trading isn't gonna get you anything but laughed at. I will always spend the resources on archers rather than dicking around with trading - just my two cents.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-30-00 10:21 PM ET (US)     12 / 67       
BlitzkreigComin:
Maybe the opponents you fought didn't know how to play palmy right. If you get palmy in random civs and haven't been practicing with them, you're screwed.
 
I've beaten experts because of the edge trading gave me. They didn't laugh. Sometimes, when a game is close, it gets to a point where there just aren't any gold mines left - and that's where the one who traded out cheap food to make gold wins, when his HHAs are fighting vs CAs and his legions fighting vs axers. Sure trading sucks, but like farming it's necessary when natural resources run low, and it can help you recover from a bad spot.
 
LoL, it's obvious to me that you don't understand the advantages of a wood-first strat at all. In a wood-first strat, your econ is on the sea but your army is on land. If you want to win, you'll have to hit their villies with your greater food supply before they hit your boats with their greater wood supply. A massive tool rush followed by a fast bronze is a possibility with a wood-first strat. Oh, and don't try to match their land villie count before bronze - you can't. Make up for it (and surpass them) with FBs.

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HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 00:12 AM ET (US)     13 / 67       
I have not found dock booming to be very effective with them either...I usually don't start until tool, or when I run out of SF.

The optimal condition is to be able to pit a spot between SF and wood. The next two in line are pitting by wood and gazelles/elles, or if there is wood close to the TC, a gran start. The thing to keep in mind, is that Palmy can't handle a start that requires two buildings to get going, the delay will be too severe.


HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 00:53 AM ET (US)     14 / 67       
wedsaz:

Please play the damn game.... Please. You have no fb's after 10:00 against anyone that is good if you pit first. What can you do with no food?? Not mass a Tool army or Bronze army.

The days of free fishing to mass a land army is long, long over. You can NOT plan on fishing past 10:00 - 11:00 without 6-8 Scout ships. That takes 1000 wood at least to get you to Tool to make a Navy and get your buildings.

All pit starts do for you is give you a bigger food ratio in a food/ratio econ, and I'll take a wood based econ and beat you any time.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE I beg you to quit making excuses and play the game. Trading sux, Palmy sux, and your talk of beating "experts" years ago with half-assed strats is back to sucking.

So please no more talking about this strat that doesn't work, unless you can get on the Zone and beat me with it. I'll even take Palmy.

HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 02:16 AM ET (US)     15 / 67       
palmy is a great civ, but a fastboom will definately not work at all for them.

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 02:39 AM ET (US)     16 / 67       
BlitzkreigComin:
I wish I could play man, I really really wish I could play, but there's way too many reasons right now why I can't. Why do you keep torturing me?
 
One think you don't seem to know about this strat, probably because you didn't try it, is that you have tons of food by 10 mins. Even if your fishing boats mysteriously disappear, which I've never seen happen short of a nuke trooper attack, you still have more than enough food for a huge army to take over the land. Did you know compies (w/alchemy) slaughter triremes, nevermind scout ships? Anything within their range is yours once you get your compies out there, and with a 12 min bronze you can have them out by 14 mins while the enemy isn't ready to bronze before 15 mins. Your berries are completely unpicked, so you can switch some villies to those when the boats are going away, and keep your food going for a good while yet. Since you bronze 3 mins faster, you could be making villies from multiple TCs to catch up and surpass in villie count.
 
You bring up good arguments, but it's easier to complain about a problem than it is to fix it. When you propose a problem, how about trying to propose a variation that solves it as well? If more people did that, maybe we'd have a greater variety of valid strats on the zone.

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HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 02:56 AM ET (US)     17 / 67       
wedsaz, I have tried it, several times, and it crashes and burns before you can get it going even. You have an average of 2 mins with no villie production! And that's a good time. I've tried it docking first, after a gran start, and after a pit start...none of them are feasible.

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 03:22 AM ET (US)     18 / 67       
HonoredMule:
This in an unorthodox strat, and always was. You have to forget what you learned about maintaining constant villie production. How is your boat production doing? How fast can you bronze with it, and with what resources once there?
 
This is one strat where, if you practice vs the computer, you have to do the whole thing until you have an army to know if you got it right. I guess it's sort of like a boat boom without a villie boom, where you're cutting out tool age in favor of a faster bronze. Yes it's extreme, but that's what makes it good at what it does: a quick bronze with a lot of food. People keep taking the wrong approaches to fighting it, because they don't understand it. Those are its strenghts - extreme optimization and its unusual (perhaps unique) nature.
 
Maybe that's why it never caught on while the dock-block and the more stable berry-first boat boom did, the mechanical assy rushers just couldn't warp their mind to fit this one.
 
Trust me man, I won a *lot* of games with this one, against good players. I don't know if it can be adapted to RoR, whether or not its strengths can be used to beat the heavier boom in some way, but I do know it works in AoE where assy rushers are still the norm. Maybe what's needed is a change of civ and some adaptation, persian who can do a pit-start without penalty for example, or palmy who has woodcutting capacity comparable to pre-patch phoenie. I don't know for sure but I'm trying, because I don't want AoE to die and I hope maybe a few screams in the darkness can help convince someone at ES to turn the light on again. I don't see many other people proposing new or unknown strats here, if there were then I'd probably shut up about this one and help the others develop. I may be cut off from playing, but I'm not cut off from dreaming and posting. Well, enough ranting for now.

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HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 05:17 AM ET (US)     19 / 67       
forget villie production then...unless I'm very lucky, nothing gets produced for 2 mins, and if I'm going for boats and "not worrying about villie production" then there are long waits between boats too. If you are so sure of yourself, you're free to try it, but I already have, and I've found something that works much better.

HonoredMule | HM | website = RoR Complete
73239774 = 73239774 | assassin@nbnet.nb.ca
--- Just want one thing, just to play the king.
--- But the castle's crumbled and you're left with just a name.
--- Where's your crown King Nothing?
darius_the_mede
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 11:17 AM ET (US)     20 / 67       
I'm willing to give it a shot, sounds interesting, so what's your fastboom strat?

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darius_the_mede
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 11:25 AM ET (US)     21 / 67       
Never mind, I saw the Thread.

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"Great minds have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 03:33 PM ET (US)     22 / 67       
wedsaz:

I am saying that the strat won't work. I have tried it. It appealed to me to get my Tool time down. I would pit first, put all villas on wood, and start cranking out fishing boats.

I have tried all variations. It is quite easy to get a 40 villa 12:00 Tool in a boom. It is easy to get faster times with fewer real villas. The problem is you don't have the wood to protect your economy.

I won with the pit-first strat a few times, but never against good players. I did axer/scout/slinger combo to try and use some food early.

Your safest way to play Minoan is to granary first, then from there have real villas go to wood, and dock boom from there.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 04:02 PM ET (US)     23 / 67       
BlitzkreigComin:
1. It does work. It just doesn't do what you seem to expect from it.
2. When done right, this strat has a slow tool immediately followed by a fast bronze. When I said 12 mins *bronze* w/40 villies/boats, that's exactly what I meant - bronze not tool. As fast as an average shang fastbronze back when people worried about bronze time.
3. You may not have enough wood to protect your boats, but they won't have enough food (and bronze speed) to protect their villies. Fight where you're strong, not where they're strong. Sure they'll kill your FBs, so kill their villies in revenge and come back for the sea afterwards.
4. Yes, berries first is the safest strat. Against assy rushers in AoE though, safe just didn't work while this strat did and still does. Both strats are good, but different.
 
I'm not saying this strat is perfect, nor even "safe". It's the fastest way to get 20-30 minoan compies onto the battlefield (without tribbers), that's what it was designed for. If it can be adapted to do other things that would be very cool, but if not then it still has a place in the strat list as a good anti-assy strat.
 
darius_the_mede:
Thanx, I look forward to your feedback.

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Dave
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 04:14 PM ET (US)     24 / 67       
wedsaz:

I have been trying a lot of different strats since I started RoR 9 or 10 months ago (including many of your ideas).

You have some interesting ideas (and I tried them all because I wanted to evaluate them based on their own merit).

But here is what I conclude:

1) your pit first strat causes an initial delay in villie count that is way too terminal. Your econ usually has a very slow start and will struggle to catch up to those of your enemies.

2) Stopping vil count at 11 or 12 does get you a fast tool. But what happens is that you are starving for food and wood. You cannot hit the bronze button for at least two minutes (if you are lucky). The result is actually a much slower bronze time with a weaker econ.

3) Your strats have the common characteristic that you come out of bronze with a severe lack of wood. You cannot make the needed military buildings or ships to defend yourself or mount a sizeable attack.

4) After tooling, your strat calls for the correct order of buildings, techs, up-grades, etc... Just one problem ... you won't have enough resources to get them quickly. You have to wait a fair amount of time in between each upgrade/build. Compare this to the well-developed boom strats with which you can really do all of these quickly and for many, simultaneously.

5) I think that your strats are best suited for really fast tool rushes. They will not perform well in bronze wars against good players.

6) Perhaps your ideas worked well when AoE just came out and you "won many games" because most people didn't know how play efficiently. But from what I see on the zone, the way people play, you will lose most of the time.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 10-31-00 04:51 PM ET (US)     25 / 67       
Dave:
1. Don't try to catch up to the "heavy boomers".
2. I got 9:00-9:30 tool followed by 12:00 bronze, hundreds of times. It was a bit tight on wood, but I was far from starving on food.
3. If you do like me, putting all your villies on wood and making no warboats, you'll have enough wood. If you're having serious problems, pump out 1 or 2 extra villies in stone until you can learn to optimize better. This minoan fastboom strat didn't happen overnight, I cut down from like 18 villies ya know.
4. "After tooling, ..." - I don't play DM. Having to choose what to spend my thin wood on, what's higher on the priority list, is part of the fun for me I guess. It's also what makes my strats 3-4 mins faster than those heavier booms.
5. The fastboom strat has performed well in bronze wars, against legends, back in AoE trial where there was nothing BUT bronze. It still performs well in the bronze wars of AoE. You can't reasonably expect it to compete with a booming opponent if you wait for him to catch up. You have to hit him while he's still behind. Send a few slingers+cavs in early bronze. All you need is one barracks and one stable, which you have to make before you can bronze anyway, and about 300 gold for the cavs.
6. My strat worked well in the days where people knew very well how to CA rush efficiently. It still works against good assy CA rushers in AoE, and that's what it was designed for. Anything it can do in RoR would just be a bonus.

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