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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Beating Hittite Iron
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Topic Subject:Beating Hittite Iron
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Nineveh
Inactive
posted 12-17-98 07:21 AM ET (US)         
One word: How?

Is there any way on the damned planet to beat Hittite Iron? I have lost soooo many 3v3 cuz my Minoans, after smoking 2 out of 3 enemies, get blow away by a 60-villager Hittite who's been playing SimCity and now has
HHA
AE
EA
Hcats
Cents
Scythes..

And a kickin economy, AND bonuses!

I think ES dropped the ball on this one, but maybe there's a way to do it.
Anyone ever beaten a Hittite in iron of equal economy with any civ but Sumerian?


-Nineveh, "Minister for Compy Equality"
ICQ 16407576

AuthorReplies:
Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 12-24-98 03:40 PM ET (US)     76 / 92       
Just checked out the converting farms thing in Scenario Builder, and found that they "fixed" that problem in RoR. Farms are a *little* bigger, but only 15 more (415 vs 400 for Persians.)


Keep your stick on the ice.

General_Yamo
Inactive
posted 12-24-98 05:13 PM ET (US)     77 / 92       
Well, either there is some bizzare feature turned on in my scenario editor or I don't know what, but I've done this test 10 times now. Under no circumstances do 3 Hittite STs beat 7 Egyptian CAs even without dodging and sometimes I wouldn't pay attention and just let them scatter their CA fire for half the time and I still had 2 left (3 or 4 survived most times.) The first ST volley always misses as the CAs approach, but this is hardly uncommon and more than generous considering I didn't dodge a single stone after that. How someone else is coming to a totally different result on so simple a test is beyond me. Do it yourself if you don't believe me.

Second, I thought that CAs would take some kind of splash damage also, but in fact they did not take any in the scenario editor tests I did. Maybe the +4 armor they came with stopped some small amount of splash they might've taken, but I really don't think that's likely. The CAs had 106, 60, or 14 hps - never any other number, and you could just click on the CA next to where the stone was falling anyways...

However, considering your main arguments have been that I am on mushrooms or so clueless as to have never seen 2 of the most common units in this game fight each other this wasn't really much of a discussion to begin with. I'm outta here, this is mind numbing...


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 12-24-98 05:31 PM ET (US)     78 / 92       
Only thing I would say is that positioning of units etc etc..who fires at what can greatly effect the outcome of a battle. Concentrating or deconcentrating your fire can help you depending on the situation. For instance if you have 7 stone throwers target a horse archer then 5 of those stones were wasted. In the case of archers, in general I think its best to concentrate your fire onto 1 or 2 units. By reducing enemy numbers quickly you reduce the ammount of fire you are taking on. Also the spacing of your units can greatly effect the splash damage your units take.

The best outcomes I'm getting in the scenario editor with archers are by splitting them into groups of 4 - 6 and hotkeying them. I set each group to target a enemy unit and when its dead I move onto the next one. If you try to attack a target with a group of say 20 then your archers take too long to get into position. Either case seems to work better then letting them fire at random though. Going to do some more testing with different units.


postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 12-24-98 10:50 PM ET (US)     79 / 92       
Ok, maybe im missing something here, but let me restate the original question here and Nineveh can correct me if Im wrong.

How can you beat Hittite in Iron with equal resources to start off with?

Now, it looks like Dyer and Omni and pretty much everyone seems to agree that there is no way to do this then since people are constantly referring to Bronze and Tool involvement. Who cares who wins between Hittite and Egypt CA Yamo? I dont agree with your tests honestly, not to mention that battles like that just wont happen in a real game. As far as Tool rushes, yes, Hittite has a weakness there. But we are talking Iron here. Persia just doesnt match up to Hittite in Iron unless its a DM, in which case they better hit Hittite hard and fast because they will not replenish their resources as effectively. (Note: I actually agree Persia is an underrated civ in default starts and that most people dont play them because they require a different style, but thats not a factor here.) Choson may also take them in a DM, but in an RM Iron start they dont have the resources to Legion flood you so quickly. Not to mention Hittite will most likely have Scyths long before you have Legions and could run you out of gold. Egypt is probably the closest with small pops at 1.0 speed where you can micromanage all those Priests, but even this matchup favors Hittite slightly IMO. So am I missing something or someone here? Does anyone care to comment how Hittite can be beaten by a non-Hittite civ in a game between 2 players of equal skill and equal resources (non-DM) starting in Iron age?


Elijeh
Clubman
posted 12-24-98 11:03 PM ET (US)     80 / 92       
AE_Kosh3 replye dto my "phracts are useful post as this:
you hear of cats?

phracts barely do a better job than heavy cavs

scythias are far more economical
now i said anti Heles units. And if you don't get good cats. (choson, yamato, and Mace(assyria), shang, and um...Palmy)
How many of ya'll ever sent Scythes against Heles? how many Scythes made it? Prolly none! or like 2 outta 20. Scythes can be taken out in like 3 or 4 hits. compared to the 6 for "phracts


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 12-24-98 11:48 PM ET (US)     81 / 92       
Ahh but scythes can do much more damage once they get in range and they don't waste gold. I've been able to take out small numbers (less then 15) helopolis's with scythes. At some point though it becomes impossible.

I played one FFA game as choson vs a minoan. We were the only 2 left at the end..I sent 125 fully upgraded choson legions against his 50ish helopolis. Not a single one made it .


PheNoL
Inactive
posted 12-25-98 01:51 AM ET (US)     82 / 92       
nevermind...

[This message has been edited by PheNoL (edited 12-25-98).]

Dhamon
Inactive
posted 12-25-98 10:55 AM ET (US)     83 / 92       
on the scythe vs hele Idea, scythes do beat on heles at least in small numbers.

10 (non egy) scythes will beat 10 (greek) heles slightly more than 50% of the time, which res wise is a HUGE advantage to the scythe user. with the trample damage...as long as the can get close enough, the scythes will be killing 3 heles at a time, that is why scythes are better than legions or any sort of cavalry.


Ex_Akaval
Inactive
posted 12-25-98 07:05 PM ET (US)     84 / 92       
If there is a crossing, Minoan should be able to force a stalemate with Hittite, all you do is build like 10 docks, and constanly produce ships. Well I think everybody knows how to defend a crossing so am not gonna explain that. Its not beating Hittite, but at list a tie.


Ex_Rabbit
Inactive
posted 01-12-99 04:31 AM ET (US)     85 / 92       
Okay, apparently, it seems that so far, only sumi even stands a chance at fighting iron hittite. seems everyone is arguing egy now. i think egy stands a really good chance at fighting hittite. especially in ror. you have to remember that when ES made this game, they had the units in rock paper scissors type deal. priests take cats (literally). you say send in CA's? i've got my own wall of CA's. ha ha. you say run past the CAs and kill my priests first? i got eles here too. you say cents come in and take out my eles? remember my wall of CA's? ha ha. they'll eat up your cents too. u say send in CA's and cents all at once. i say "I don't think so" and my wall of CA's take out a good load of stuff WHILE my priests are converting your cats which can't touch me. and as someone pointed out, any good player will dodge cannonballs. i'm not talking just one or two priests. i'm talking priests like crazy. priests like ambush. 2 priests assigned to each hotkey and some left over type of deal. yes, lots of gold, but i take your cat, you lose 80 gold, i gain 80 gold, i lose 125 gold. seems like i come out 35 gold ahead of you. and i'm sure as heck not going to lose all my priests. granted, you have to be adept at using priests, but what good player isn't? and how are you going to be able to pick off ALL my priests if they're spread out like they should be so that in the event that a stone does accidentally bump off the holy men a huge crowd don't die off (ahh, that actually brought back a fond memory. 1 cat taking out a group of 7 unaware priests with one shot. haha).

oh akaval, ships don't work. hittite garfields have 15 total range if upgraded. minoan ships have only 10 max. be prepared to lose a LOT of wood with no compensation. I tried taking on a hittite w/ minoans one time. no way that worked. of course that was aoe where seige get ballistics and my cav couldn't ever get near him. oh well. i tried everything. cavs, cents, lots and lots of compies (that was very bad). micromanaging one or two garfields, etc. maybe micromanaging one or two helos would work if i stayed a good bit away from him so that it takes a while for the stone to fly. anyway, that's another chapter in the rabbit's book. is anyone copying and pasting these posts? you could write an entire strat guide from these if i ever got good.


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-12-99 11:50 PM ET (US)     86 / 92       
A couple of things.

Priests even 16 range ones are not great against 14 or 15 range cats. The cat just has to move up 1 or 2 squares and fire. Sure you can try and dodge but if I have quite a few cats your priests are going to die. The priest upgrades + priest cost will really eat up your gold.

Hittite ships have a max of 13 range and they don't get triremes. I'd say hittite fire galleys are about on par with 10 range triremes in iron.

The egyptian in ROR should be making scythes not trying the chariot archer + priest approach. Scythes are very hard to counter and require very little micromanagement.


Indigo
Clubman
posted 01-13-99 08:57 AM ET (US)     87 / 92       
Actually egypt also needs some war eles on the ground, not scythes alone. Why take along those walking sacks of meat? becase they absorb tremendous damage. When up against a force of hittite ha's and hcats, move in the ele's first, towards the cats. This will preoccupy the hittite with taking out the cats. Then you move in with your scythes to take out the ha's and you have a clear field vs the cats. Simple no?

No. Because even if the plan works you then have to deal with a mad hittite who decides to bring along some cents to defend the cats. Thats where your ele archers, and get this: stone throwers come in. Just because egypt doesn't get cats doesn't mean the st's are worthless. They will distract a hittite who doesn't expect siege fire at all. And if he doesn't focus on getting them then his cents and ha's are gone.

Bring along your priests and it seems like a counter to any hittite force. Usually i find hittites will not spend the 800 gold for scythes (since they are so gold dependent). However, your priests will somewhat be lacking this time around because you have to save gold for the ea's, sts (if you decide to bring them) and war ele's. It should not be much of a problem.

Now the real problem: if the hittite decides then to focus on an armored ele/hcat combination of his own. Sycthes will have a hard time beating up those eles, the sts will help but they will prolly take out more scythes than ele's . EA's and priests can handle such a combination, but because you will have very few priests (ea spending) i suggest you concentrate on using a scythe/ea/war ele force.

But, this is all in theory, so don't think you can beat a hittite without trying this out first

And I am still looking for a civ that can truly beat hittite without such big problems!

P.S. about the comment that scythes are hard to counter. You would be suprised how effective a good force of cents, ha's and cats working together can rip them apart when they don't have support.


Jehu
Inactive
posted 01-13-99 09:18 AM ET (US)     88 / 92       
I agree that Egypt is about as good achoice as any against Hittite Iron. And I also agree that you need to use war elephants, scythes, and priests. Elephant archers are nothing more than mobile gaurd towers IMHO and I only use them occasionally.

One reason for WEs against hittite is he will almost never use more than a couple of priests for healing. WEs with Scythes do pretty well against CAT/ Ha armies, although I know from experience it isn't easy. If your scythes reallly get to rolling he may feel pressured to go with cents or his on armored eles as a counter. But he knows your priests are back there licking their chops in anticipation.

I still give the edge to Hittite in iron but that is with everything being equal. We all know that in no time frame of the game are all things equal except the first minute or so. Egypt is good enough that they should be able to win...I'll say 2 of 5 games against an equally skilled Hittite, given the eb-and-flow of the resource levels, timing, and all the variables that are so important in any game.

Jehu


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 01-13-99 10:21 AM ET (US)     89 / 92       
If you keep hitting the hittite hes never going to be able to get cents or armored elephants. It takes much longer to get those upgrades then scythes. If he gets em you can through in some priests but you SHOULD NOT start a attack with that.

Egyptian scythes do 16 trample damage have 8 armor and 182? hit points. You should be able to make wave after wave of 25 of them. You just need wood cutters and farms. If you loose lots its no big deal. To beat them off without helopolis is not easy.

Making your own ST's or war elephants really isn't needed. Scythes will kill enemy war elephants/phalanx with acceptable losses. If he manages to make lots of armored elephants or cents then make the priests. Hes going to be using so much resouces fighting off your attacks that he should have a very hard time fielding those super expensive units.


King Crash
Inactive
posted 01-13-99 03:49 PM ET (US)     90 / 92       
Hyperion...
quote:
Fully upgraded scythe chariots mean nothing against elephants

If you can keep up with me in an hittie or (God Forbid) Egyptian Scythe vs Elephant Battle, that will be a new on on me.
Sure scythes die by the multitudes but in a Full out Iron battle, Gold is the key...scythes are almost free...Shoot, a few Egyptian scythes can take out a bablylonian Ballista Tower...And as Egypt, I'll enjoy adding the eles to my stable. The real thing is numbers...I'll lose more units...but you will lose the expensive ones...

Elijeh

quote:
Heles fire once every 1.5 seconds. they do 42 damage(alchemy.). -1 for piercinf armor of 'phracts. Phracts have 206 HP with nobility. so it takes 6 to kill a phract. Meaning 9 seconds

That would be true if only one was firing at your unit, however with helis en masse. That 6 shots will come in 1.5 seconds. Thus freeing for the next (DEAD) horseman.

For fun Try playing Egyptian in a DM game and go all scythes/chariot archers/priests with a few camels/eles thrown in as distraction. They can more than hold their own against any non-heli/cent civ. And if you can get close enough the cents can be yours!

It seems like the only reason I ever lose when I do this is helis/cents and bad teammates. Don't disregard Egypt against this combination though, +2 ST can take out distracted helis.

KC


Ex_Akaval
Inactive
posted 01-13-99 07:35 PM ET (US)     91 / 92       
Rabbit, I know how to defend a crossing. I wouldnt put ships by it I would send em in when hittie attempts to cross. If its some kind of unsuitable crossing where cats can hit navy at any spot, I wouldnt do that. The way to beat hittie in Iron is to weaken them in thier fairly unflexible bronze. And the piont on holding out is that maybe your ally beat thiers and you win by double teaming.


Ex_Rabbit
Inactive
posted 01-14-99 03:37 AM ET (US)     92 / 92       
Priests are the way to go. even if there are about 14 or 15 cats, and esp in ror. like i said, you'd never keep your priests together anyways, so with one shot, u shouldn't have more than 2 dying. and it's practically guaranteed to convert if you've got a couple eles in there to draw the fire first. the enemy wouldn't know what the heck was happening. he'd be concerned about those eles getting too close to his cats to notice that you're not trying to kill the cats, but take it for your own. if we're talking ror, this is doubly hard for the cat to kill the ele w/o ballistics. but in this situation, scythes work, as someone pointed out. before i was talking purely aoe, but since we went ror too, i'd use scythes, but i really don't think armored eles are all that great. +3 attack, a little extra armor, and seigecraft. unless you're planning to take a city by storm, i don't really like AE's. personal opinion of course. i just don't think they're worth all that gold to upgrade. of course if you've got piles of gold just lying around, what the heck.

akaval, i wasn't belittling you. i was just making the point that i really don't think someone would sit ships just out of range of the shallows waiting for the hittite cats to come rolling through. of course if you can do it, more power to you. i still think that the cats will wipe out any ship that approaches, esp if the cats come in large numbers. of course, ships could also be used to draw fire, then the wololoing starts. if it's a water game, i personally would be more worried about controlling the seas than i would be about attacking over shallows, so i'd be making range 13 galleys with 9 attack and a few fire galleys with 30 attack to control the waters. I dunno, i think giving hittites fire galleys was too much b/c now they have an awesome chance on the sea, probably one of the top chances, maybe topping minoans (BTW, i was able to win the sea with hittite against minoans on an islands DM game, so it's easily do-able now whereas before, it was only a thought). besides, controlling the seas just makes me feel like i have greater power than my opponent b/c with the sea comes and extra 9 or so tiles of land along the coast, great for building buildings or landing parties.

out of 10 cats, with 10 egy priests and something else to draw the cats' attention, i'm sure i could convert about 7 or so of the cats. works for me. it'd be okay if i lost about 4 priests or so too. and if you're really into it, you can get 10 out of 10 with martyrdom, and you wouldn't even have to worry about all the other upgrades!


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