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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Beating Hittite Iron
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Topic Subject:Beating Hittite Iron
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Nineveh
Inactive
posted 12-17-98 07:21 AM ET (US)         
One word: How?

Is there any way on the damned planet to beat Hittite Iron? I have lost soooo many 3v3 cuz my Minoans, after smoking 2 out of 3 enemies, get blow away by a 60-villager Hittite who's been playing SimCity and now has
HHA
AE
EA
Hcats
Cents
Scythes..

And a kickin economy, AND bonuses!

I think ES dropped the ball on this one, but maybe there's a way to do it.
Anyone ever beaten a Hittite in iron of equal economy with any civ but Sumerian?


-Nineveh, "Minister for Compy Equality"
ICQ 16407576

AuthorReplies:
Ender
Guest
posted 12-19-98 01:55 PM ET (US)     26 / 92       
I disagree Yamo, Hittites 5 attack chariot archer/ double hit stone thrower combo kicks butt in bronze, plus they are one of the best iron civs. Sure I'd rather play shang if I needed to win, but every other civ you said would probably lose to hittite 1v1 if the game got to bronze. In tool they could lose to yammy, phoenie or assy but I wouldn't think they'd lose to anyone else.


AE Kosh3
Inactive
posted 12-19-98 05:38 PM ET (US)     27 / 92       
sounds like a game i had yesterday. It was me and dave vs tura and locutus. Settings were RM, iron start (accidental) mediterranean and random civs. I got hittite, dave got choson, loc got yamato and tura got assy.

Try and pick at this point who you think will win, then see at the end if you are right.


So anyway while dave was baffooning around with his choson i took the sea with fire galleys. At this point it should have been all over. But somehow (and i still dont know how, just one of those things i guess) dave got slaughtered in a doubling manouver.

Time on the clock: about 15-20 mins. I was thinking hell ya. Ok so its 2on1 from now on. Loc was making 30 HHA and 20 Phracts per raid (yes he actually DID get phracts, the most useless upgrade in the entire history of RTS gaming) and Tura was making ballista towers and HA and cats.

I got pinned into my corner and soon the gold ran out. Went scythias (which i admit i should have done long before hand) and started taking ground but tura broke through and pillaged me.

To throw salt in the would both tura and loc had a go at me for loosing to them with the ultimate iron age civ. I reminded them it was 2on1 for all but 15 mins near the start, but they injury was done =(

Thinking about it now, if i had actually won i dont think i could respect either player very much at all I was suprised to hang in there for so long (well over an hour)

O well, everyone has "one of THOSE days" every now and then

~`Kosh3~


Elijeh
Clubman
posted 12-19-98 09:00 PM ET (US)     28 / 92       
'Phracts are not useless! Overated and expensive they're not worth it unless you need anti-heles units and ya ain't got Cats with engennering, or Hcats. Phracts can take more hits from heles(5 heles hits, or maybe six to kill a 'phract..i'll calculate it all up later but lets see effective Heles raneg or 11 or 12(LOS limitions, engeenering dosn't add LoS.) Heles fire once every 1.5 seconds. they do 42 damage(alchemy.). -1 for piercinf armor of 'phracts. Phracts have 206 HP with nobility. so it takes 6 to kill a phract. Meaning 9 seconds. A phract moves 2.0 tiles a second.(i guess) So in 6 seconds(4 heles blasts) a 'phract make sit to the hele. howeve rwith the heles 3 tiel danger zone of incabable of firing.. means only 3 hits prolly hit the 'phract. then its tiem for our 'phract to start killin Heles. No however one could concentrate all hele fire against a single phract. this is where micromanagement works. Send 'phracts from 4 or 5 directions at once, in groups of 2. If the heles are clustered together then the phracts will likely catch'em in they're Danger zone and that means the heles are gone. 20 helles vs 8 or 10 'phracts is a large loss of Gold(80 gold both sides) and if the 'phracts jig sideways at any points then hele swill miss'em


AE Kosh3
Inactive
posted 12-20-98 00:08 AM ET (US)     29 / 92       
you hear of cats?

phracts barely do a better job than heavy cavs

scythias are far more economical


The_Who
Clubman
posted 12-20-98 02:19 AM ET (US)     30 / 92       
Ive betten 2 hittie players both in iron with egyptian by myself. Of course i kill their economy in bronze and was them all over the map, but they still managed to throw some cats at me, but they never upgraded +2 range my priest had fun. The point is this, in bronze egyptian can dominate hittite easily, so then you use the superior egyptian bronze to take hittites superior iron away from them, simple as that


Sting
Clubman
posted 12-20-98 12:26 PM ET (US)     31 / 92       
hmm well The_Who you really should stop playing hittite rookies who let you dominate them so easily


Ender
Guest
posted 12-21-98 07:33 AM ET (US)     32 / 92       
egyptian priests in bronze vs hittite chariot archers... hmm doesn't sound like a good matchup.


General_Yamo
Inactive
posted 12-21-98 12:22 PM ET (US)     33 / 92       
Not sure about this 2v1 stuff, but Egypt, like numerous other civs, beats Hittite bronze. The gold bonus and having fishing ships puts their econ ahead, their CAs beat the Hittie ones, STs aren't much of a unit to counter 106 hp CAs, and so what's left? The + 4 range to war galley bonus?? That's worth 1, maybe 2 ships for the game...


postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 12-21-98 01:20 PM ET (US)     34 / 92       
Guess what Yamo, Egypt wont have those fishing ships beause Hittite will completely dominate the seas. Yes, Egypt has equal CAs to Hittite, but when you lose the sea you lose a very large part of the game. Sure, you can try to reclaim it in Iron, but you have to worry about my land forces now. And since I have the seas I will have much more food then you. Have fun charging in your Scyths as my cats take 80% of them out and my 10 attack HHAs finish the rest off. No civ can mess with hittite Iron people. Plain and simple. And for anyone who thinks Hittite bronze is weak.....LOL!

Hyperion....every civ against Persia is gold relient?? Fully upgraded Scyths mean nothing? hmmmmm. Persias Cats are absolutly worthless against Hittite. HHAs or CAs will murder your Eles. My own HHAs completely dominate your HAs, not to mention my cats or Scyths. CAs and Scyths will take out your beloved priests. What else does persia have? Ahhh yes, a horrible economy, and easy pickin Peons.


Hyperion
Inactive
posted 12-21-98 04:01 PM ET (US)     35 / 92       
Fully upgraded scythe chariots mean nothing against elephants, postapocalypic. A total waste of resources. Against Hittite players the Persians don't even need to build towers: walls to keep out the scythes and archers are enough. Hittite catapults take much more gold than elephants do, and they're not that good against Persians.

Since there's nothing to stop Persians from building catapults against Hittite players, I seldom really fear phalanxes and heavy horse archers(not that I believe they exist: I have _never_ seen anyone build one in a RM they had not already won).

My experience of Hittites in iron against Persia is that they are forced into an almost completely defensive posture. They can certainly win a game that goes long enough, but it takes everything they have in early iron to just not die. I concede that if untouched they have a far better economy than the Persians do, but they're going to be defending, running, defending, replacing buildings and farms, losing a fishing fleet, and replacing any villagers elephants get near for about 10 minutes in iron. Oh, and researching to get any decent iron units. Persians get to iron and research at most four technologies that require food - catapult, trireme, cavalry chainmail, and engineering(eventually fortification, the two shields, and armored elephant, as well, but those can certainly wait).

None of the Persian technologies is essential, except maybe catapult. Hittites must research far more to compete with the super elephants and priests. Persians have, then, a big edge in early iron productionn on the overworked Hittite peasants. It isn't practical to pump Hittie elephants out against a Persian player, either, given the difference in priest quality and the difficulty of catching the Persian elephants in the first place. Archers die to Persian catapults(or, if you're inclined that way, elephant archers(which suck)..or camels, if the Persians have any left over). Chariots will keep the priests in check...for as long as they're around against elephants. Most Hittite players don't build them, and I don't, when I play Hittie, until quite late in iron.

Phalanxes are fine against elephants, as long as no one has catapults firing into the battle. This is very seldom the case, and when it is, the Persians can run away.

Economic bonuses aren't worth much when you don't control enough of the map.

I honestly don't believe that any civilization that depends on chariots or chariot archers to do the job can compete with the Persians, postapokalypic, and that's why I believe that every civilization against Persians is gold dependant. Persians are very beatable - much more so than Hittites are - but you do it with academy, helepoli, or priests, not with catapults or archers or elephants.


Sting
Clubman
posted 12-21-98 05:27 PM ET (US)     36 / 92       
The thing that should stop a persian from building cats is the fact that they dont get ballistics. I doubt a persian catapult could hit well micromanaged horse archers


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 12-21-98 06:19 PM ET (US)     37 / 92       
Actually scythes do very very well against elephants. Scythes have up to 9 + 7 = 16 damage and up to 2 + 6 = 8 armor. The egyptian scythes have 183? hitpoints. Non armored elephants have 15 attack and 6 armor 600hps. You really only need about 2 scythes for every elephant. The armored scythes are tuffer but its hard for a heavy elephant user to be able to afford that early.


postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 12-21-98 07:53 PM ET (US)     38 / 92       
ok Hyperion, you going to make me go into all the details here I see.

This may be a bit of a rambling, but there are so many areas you seem to be looking over somehow.

First of all, you cats will not take down my archers. You cant target them. Your Eles can be stopped easily by Hittite. I can use HAs, CAs and use Hit and Run Techniques. Your Cats will not touch my Archers. Your own archers are much much weaker then mine. Less range, less power, less accuracy doesnt make for a good combination. Same thing can be said for their cats too. I can stop Eles with Cents backed by Archers with hardly any losses. Try to convert them and watch as my 6 attack CA rush by your boulders and kill them. I can use my own priests to convert your eles. You dont have CA which greatly improve how effective my Priests are. And I dont understand why you keep saying there is nothing to stop you from building your Cats. My Cats greatly outpower your cats. After all those ways I can stop your Eles maybe you can understand why I dont fear them. Hittite in absolutely no way relies on CAs or Chariots to do the job. If you think so then you need to take a looooong look at their Tech Tree. The economy difference between these two civs is much more dramatic then you seem to realize. Persia is missing so many Market techs (including, and most importantly, the Wheel) its pitiful. That fact that you said you have never seen HHAs in a game says allot. They are a tremendous unit. Fastest unit in the game, and Hittite has the most powerful which are fully upgradable. Camels are no match at all for Hittite HAs in equal numbers. None. Period. Finito. Oh, and Scyths not important or not a factor?? LOL! Sorry, but I cant believe you think Scyths would not be a factor in any game. I dont know what else I can say but I know Im forgetting things, and thats the funny part. In a DM, persia is a decent civ because they start off with all those resources and might be able to jump on someone. But in RM there are too many ways to outclass them. And im not even going to go into all the ways Hittite will dominate Persia in Bronze.


Emowilli
Clubman
posted 12-21-98 08:06 PM ET (US)     39 / 92       
I just wish a civ with a decent economy got those fast elephants cause they rock :-).


postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 12-21-98 08:54 PM ET (US)     40 / 92       
Oh, I almost forgot...
Hyperion Said "I don't remember losing to a Hittite with Persia in a game which went iron..."

I would be glad to break you in...


General_Yamo
Inactive
posted 12-21-98 09:11 PM ET (US)     41 / 92       
postapoc - I certainly did not say Hittite iron was weak! I said they're mediocre in tool and bronze. I mentioned 6 or 7 civs above that I'd rather take in a 1v1 or 3v3 where all people are of equal skill, and are going to be aggressive enough to put pressure on early.

About Egypt though - their CAs are better than Hitties, not "the equal of." You don't get to use 5 hits per vill attack if you're dead... My experience has been that +4 range does not lead to control of the sea, but really rewards Hittites that get it. Don't know why all that range doesn't work like with Minoan comps, but it just doesn't. Maybe its the ratio of the damage being done to the higher ship hp's or maybe its the fact that the larger a unit is, the more trouble it has concentrating fire... At any rate its never helped or hurt me much, but its a if a Hittie can shore bombard freely. Its Hittie fish boats that are like wheeless vills begging to die that really make a diff at sea. Plus, camels then comps can really suprise people on a land/sea map and help you put a lot more wood out on the water.


Ender
Guest
posted 12-22-98 07:36 AM ET (US)     42 / 92       
Hittite stone throwers own all chariot archers, 5 or 6 stone throwers wipe out a pack of chariot archers in seconds assuming you have chariot archer support of your own. The priests aren't very useful vs hittite in bronze either, best your going to do is convert a stone thrower and lose a priest. Hittite war galley's do have a large advantage, i see hittite war galleys dominating non-hittite galleys all the time.


As to persian vs hittite in iron, play some DM, hittite owns persian even in DM. Now figure in the fact that persian is worse in bronze, and can't posibly match up with the hittite economy and I don't see persians dominating hittite in iron.


dashingdave
Inactive
posted 12-22-98 09:19 AM ET (US)     43 / 92       
Hyper, you surprise me!! Persia???? lol. Persia dies fast to Hittite IMO. CAs to kill priests, priests to convert elles......game over! Bring out some of those great persian HHA or compies(lol, 7 range), and watch em die. Now I'd rather fight Persia with a better priest civ but persia has NO antiprist weapon. And that's a awlful combination when you're planning on using elles, even persian ones. If I were Hittite fighting Persian, I'd get scythe chariots and CAs to kill priests and raid peons with. I'd probably go easy on the cats and heavy on Cents and priests(yeah, I know Hittite ones suck). If my opponents used EA, then I'd definitely use cats


Your_Old_Friend
Inactive
posted 12-22-98 10:02 AM ET (US)     44 / 92       
Persian ONLY need to be reinforced in the Food department (by tribute, obviously) to be able to train more accelerated War Elephants or Armored Elephants than ANY Hittite or Sumerian player can cope with.
I know - it has been done to me AND I had some Helepolis support (which works wonders against Elephants).
There is a certain number past which simply nothing can hold them.

BTW: My Persian opponent was VERy adept at maneouvering the Elephants: they attacked in a wide front, obviously managed by the two or threesome - and did NOT all come in a row, a common mistake that makes it easy for Helepolis to waste them...

His partner was a Palmyran, BTW and all he did was Villager boom, fish, farm and locust gold - very effective in tributing.


Sting
Clubman
posted 12-22-98 10:11 AM ET (US)     45 / 92       
hah general yamo I hate to break it to ya but hittite has a very strong bronze age dominance. In fact, I would say hittite controls mid bronze through the rest of the game. It is that simple.

Priests are useless, no other stone throwers can touch hittites. Sumerian stone throwers are the only thing that may actually work, but all in all the hittite would win catapult battles with a sumerian.


Nineveh
Inactive
posted 12-22-98 10:34 PM ET (US)     46 / 92       
So Yamo, how are those mushrooms?

Seriously, Hittite Tool is cool (no slingers, but attack 4 bowmen). Notice i said "cool", not great. Range 11 scout ships have this nasty habit of wasting your fishing fleet before you even make bronze.

Bronze? Yeah, unit bonuses for 2 of the best bronze-age units, CA and ST. Range 12 Galleys eat other ships. You better be Minoan or Phonny cuz you will lose more ships that your opponent.

Iron is a joke. Lets see, if a Hittite can make AE, and a persian can make AE, but a Persian's economy sux, why will he win?

Esp with Awesome EA, HHA, CA, Cents, and finally scythes to kill him after the gold runs out.

Persia has priests (countered by CA), Eles (countered by Cents/AE/HA) and Legions (countered by Eles, Scythes, Cents, HA).

Am I missing something?


-Nineveh, "Minister for Compy Equality"
ICQ 16407576

TauCeti9
Inactive
posted 12-23-98 04:59 AM ET (US)     47 / 92       
In the hands of an adept player I'm sure that persia could beat any civ in any age . Assuming of course that the other player was not quite as adept.IMHO.I of course am not an adept player and would choose a civ other than persia.hehe.

TAU


General_Yamo
Inactive
posted 12-23-98 12:26 PM ET (US)     48 / 92       
Hrruumph. Egypt's CAs beat Hitties with or without nobility (that is, when its the same situation for both.) I always assumed CAs got the better of STs (I don't rush to make STs when fighting CAs at any rate...) so I did some math. By my calculations and according to the scenario editor 7 Egyptian CAs with nobility beat 3 Hittite STs hands down - and that is without even dodging which most competent players will do. However, if we're disagreeing about these basic facts here we aren't really having a fruitful argument...


Ender
Guest
posted 12-23-98 12:30 PM ET (US)     49 / 92       
A while back I did some testing and this is what I found Yamo. An army of 20 regular chariot archers loses to an army of 10 chariot archers and 5 stone throwers, and about 5-6 chariot archers are left assuming you kill the stone throwers first. If its hittite vs egyptian there are anywhere from 5 to all 10 chariot archers of the hittite left. It just takes 20 chariot archers too long to do the 750 damage it takes to kill the 5 stone throwers, especially when they are taking massive damage back.


Nineveh
Inactive
posted 12-23-98 12:41 PM ET (US)     50 / 92       
Ok, so Egy CA beat Hittite CA, maybe with ST.

Egy priests are useless (Hittite CA)
Egy boats are gonna lose (Range 12 Galleys)
I think Egyptian MAY be able to match Hittite in bronze.

Till the Hittite irons and owns you, of course.


-Nineveh, "Minister for Compy Equality"
ICQ 16407576

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