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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Experts, you should teach!
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Topic Subject:Experts, you should teach!
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Fanny
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 05:35 AM ET (US)         
Hi, I have been playing on the Zone for few weeks, I am trying to learn, I love this game, I have tried to Zone message experts asking for good tips, usually i get answers like "moron" "*****" "asshole" or something like that. This is a game, right? My zone name is Asima.
AuthorReplies:
Fanny
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 07:12 AM ET (US)     1 / 39       
Well, I take this back! I just watched an expert play on the zone, that was great to see.
Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 09:18 AM ET (US)     2 / 39       
Fanny

I have quite a large gruop of Zone friends. Ranging from "Newbie" to very good "Intermediate." Look me up on the Zone and I will do whatever I can to help you and if it is out of my skill area, I'll get someone who can.

Sumerian_Leper

SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 11:34 AM ET (US)     3 / 39       
ZM me, I'll be happy to give ya few tips...

I'm online as SuN_Cam_Popov

Hyper
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 02:33 PM ET (US)     4 / 39       
Sick of seeing rookies get pissed at experts for us cursing them off. Fine, if you message me and I tell you you're an asshole you can be pissed at me. But for god's sake, I host a game titled "No rookies, good/expert only" and we start and some dumbass has 4 vills and largest army. I ask "Are you a rookie?" "Yeah"

WTF? No rookies. If you are a rookie stay the hell out of the non rookie/expert only games. Then you will not get cursed at and yelled at.

Blackheart
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 02:49 PM ET (US)     5 / 39       
i've played aoe/ror for 3 years... and i didnt have anyone teach me.... i probably had some ppl get pissed at me cuz i sucked..... but the game was so good that i couldnt stop playing it just cuz some ppl had the skill to mop the floor with my rookie ass....

there is really no quick fix to getting good at ror..... understanding the concepts of the game takes time ... no matter how much someone "trains" you .... you wont get good without at least 1 year of playing on zone .... i taught many friends how to boom for example..... but they were already decent players who understood ror's concepts.... if someone coops and shows a rookie how to boom, it wont help the rook, because he is learning a strat he should know only after playing many inland/highland games, and then seeing the pros/cons of booming when compared to regular land strats....

i guess what i'm trying to say is all you rookies : dont give up, no matter how many "experts" boot you and yell to get out of their game, you will learn to be good like them ...... but dont rely solely on some expert's advice, you wont become a good player without much practice and exploring strat possibilities yourself.....

SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 03:02 PM ET (US)     6 / 39       
A good way to maybe improve your game:read-read and read...Go on websites and read strats and try new things outnly way you'll become good...You gotta understand why you're doing this thing instead of another...and so on.
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 07:31 PM ET (US)     7 / 39       
One quick tip Blackheart offered me last night was about Tool times. I asked him how many villas he makes in Stone typically. He said he pays more attention to clock rather than a villa count. He said he quits making villas around 8:00 on Medit maps and he starts to Tool between 8:40-9:30, whereas some other maps are quicker.

Simple tip I thought I should pass on.

[This message has been edited by BlitzkreigComin (edited 05-04-2000).]

Dave
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 07:45 PM ET (US)     8 / 39       
Man, this is great! We should keep on having these forum matches. Look how much we have to talk about afterwards. And even those who didn't play get something out of it.
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 10:08 PM ET (US)     9 / 39       
no i never start tooling at 8:40 u must have misunderstood even with mino its sometimes hard to hit the button any sooner than 10:00 ... thats just the way the boom works.... if you wanna be big you have to sacrifice some speed... most of the time it's worth it.....

basically on cont/medit all i do is:

start of game, pres HCC, quickly grab middle vill, press BE, and place house as close as u can to the vill so he doesnt have to walk (dont be afraid to make houses close to tc... with boom u rarely ever have to farm)

when the middle dude is making house, send the other 2 in opposite directions to scout for berries... then press HCC to use up rest of the food for queued vills (dont press HCCCCC at start, then your starting vills are idle for too long)

find berries, place granary .... 5 vills go on berries

6th vill out of tc makes 2nd house .... 7th chops strag, when 6th done with house he chops too..... if for some reason the early scouting for berries hasnt revealed a forest, send the 8th vill to scout for one....

9th vill chops... 10th makes 3rd house..... you should have a pit up under 4 mins..... 14th and 15th (or 15th and 16th depending how bad ur map is) makes a 4th house, and then the 2 go off to dock.... dont be picky about fish spots.... if u see 1 fish.... dock it... there is bound to be others nearby.... while those 2 are making docks, individual vils popping out of tc will make houses as u need them, and then send em off to wood.... when the 2 builders are done 3 docks .... they go off to search for enemy.... while exploring, these 2 are in charge of houses from now on....

stop making tc vills at 8:00 .... if u r mino with a good map u can extend that to 9:00 and u will get same speed usually..... the 5 berry pickers should be done berries by 8:30 or so.... if they arent, either put half of em on wood, or take em all on wood by now.... the boats will bring in food...... hit tool button ... you should be able to hit it anywhere from 9:30 to 10:30 ... and you will find yourself with a total pop of 45-50 25%-50% tool ... when u r at 45 pop.... then you usually made enough boats....

dont forget to make a barracks on the way while searching for enemy..... the 2 explorers shouldnt rush into an enemy town tho..... or they will die to vill fight and ur buildup plans will be screwed.... in a 3v3 u dont need to find your enemy's tc or anything.... you can probably predict where the enemies will be.... so just lay barracks anywhere, when you tool, quickly make a range with those 2 , and at same time take 4 woodies and make a market with them.... the tool buildings should be done in no time.... hit bronze, and upgrade woodchopping.... then take the 4 dudes that made market and put em on gold.... ifyou have extra wood oyu might want to consider building a range and few tool bowmen in ur base for defense.....

the 2 builder dudes should have made 2 ranges or something , fairly close to enemy.... make 3 or 4 tool bowmen and hit the enemy's woodies with em.... dont go overboard with the rush, this is just to throw him off while ur bronzing........ if u r a horse civ i hope u threw a stable nearby also, so u can camel rush the vills when u bronze....... dont forget armor upgrades tho... cuz the enemy will bone unarmored archers and single camels.... whatever u do now is up to u.... u should have bronzed by 14:30-15:00, and should have enuff for stuff like compies, and more vills at your town.... put em on wood and gold....

and keep pressure on enemy... as long as u keep attacking him, your town will most likely go untouched, thats why u need to build up more rather than go on the defensive..... defensive players die .... their army at home gets killed by your quick offense (building up by enemy means you can hit them fast) and they will be too far and too dead to even put a scratch on your town....

well... i hope that this hasnt been too complicated or too long.... and that it will help out peace

[This message has been edited by Blackheart (edited 05-04-2000).]

Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 11:53 PM ET (US)     10 / 39       
Blackheart:

Dude, that was very cool of you to post! Do you think it would be at all possible to have SuN_Cam_Popov post a similar walk-through? While we're at it how bout Hyper and _Lost_Atlantis as well. It's cool if you guys don't want to I just thought as long as Blackheart posted one, maybe you could also. This almost feels like that "Masked Magician" dude breaking the code of silence of something.

Blackheart
Clubman
posted 05-04-00 11:59 PM ET (US)     11 / 39       
it's no secret....... i've taught it personally to many friends and they all thanked me cuz it improved their game a lot on boom maps.....
Dave
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 00:48 AM ET (US)     12 / 39       
Yeah, thanks Blackheart (again). Now *all* we have to do is practice how to execute those ideas!

Multi-tasking - yippee!

Hyper
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 01:21 AM ET (US)     13 / 39       
I'd write a strat/walkthrough thing but I don't have one. I basically just wing every game off the top of my head (and earlier i scout rushed someone in a 3 vs 3, decimated them. Clicked to bronze, watch as it says 99%... Then leaned on my keyboard hitting delete and losing 800 food and my tc and over 4 minutes of time to make up the lost res and get to bronze... I lost btw)
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 01:26 AM ET (US)     14 / 39       
Blackheart:
I liked your post, seems pretty logical.
 
I have a few questions, however:
1. That would make a pretty big econ, but isn't such a slow tool risky? I don't just mean from tool rushes, some civs (shang, minoan, persian) can bronze in or under 12 mins right?
2. Wouldn't your boom be bigger/faster if you didn't spend your initial wood on a granary? Like if you used hunting near a forest?
3. Keeping pressure on the enemy looks like a good idea, I'll have to try that when I can play regularly again. However, if you kept your forward villies at home chopping for more boats, wouldn't you have a bigger and stronger econ? You could still use scouts (which are fast) to go harrass the enemy, and maybe a few clubbers trained while tooling, upgrading them when you get to tool before attacking...
4. Wouldn't cavs be better for the initial rush, then switching to camels?
5. How do you stop an otherwise defensive player from killing off your woodies with a small group of units? (3-4 camels, for example)
 
I look forward to seeing your reply, and hope to learn much.
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 02:56 AM ET (US)     15 / 39       
Leper: I'm gonna write something 'bout boom maybe tomorrow:I'm a bit drunk right now and even a rook like BB could boom better than me "right now" ;P

Gimme a few hours to get back on my feet then I'm gonna write something: I can maybe give few tips to succeed a 50 villies in 14:30 brz or 60 in 15:25...I simply can't do that as I'm writting this right now; hehe, I need some rest, cya later all ;P

Fanny
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 05:42 AM ET (US)     16 / 39       
Hi all, thanks for replying and your good tips.
I usually start with l villager building 3 houses,
1 building granary, the others on berrie bushes. I try to have 11 before tool. 4 or 5 on wood. I am the defensive type and hardly attack until iron! (if i ever get to iron) Well i see thatīs wrong. I was playing the other day, i had much higher scores than my enemie so i relaxed, then he came with few hoplites and i was finished in few minutes...
Hyper...you can share same colour, been the 5th person in game 2v2 and just watched.
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 06:49 AM ET (US)     17 / 39       
wedsaz....

1) its notthat slow of a tool..... on boom maps 99 % of the time nobody will tool faster than that strat, everyone tries to take advantage of the fish in cont/med .... if someone for some odd reason fast bronzed on cont..... he would bronze rush one of the boomers.... kill off a few vills.... and then the other 2 booming allies help their dying ally by killing the non boomer who wasted all his res on a small cav rush..... and the dude u attacked rebuilds cuz of all the res his boats were gathering while u were toying with his vills....

2) i am aware that it's possible to do a boom (smaller one) if you pit start on a forest....... but this strat is too unstable ...... you tool with like 12 vills (total pop.... umm about 30 or so) ... with reg boom u tool with 20-25 (total pop about 50) ....... pit start boom is so weird that it's harder to build up on enemy, and harder to defend ur fishing boats, also many times i forget about building a granary, and then im screwed.... and if u lose those boats...... ur dead....... regular boom u have more wood, probably a bit more food, ...... with pit start ur saving perhaps 1 minute, or less, but ur econ is crap and vill count sucks...... granary start boom the economy is very stable, easy to build up on enemy, much resources....

3) if you dont build up, you will die .... defense will get you nowhere on a boom map....... you can play defense on hills, if u r a ca civ..... make couple ranges at home and send em around the map while keeping some as defense..... in boom maps, build up, attack enemy fast, keep the pressure, your base will go untouched, enemy will die.....

4) obviously you can make tool archers earlier than cavs/camels....... to kill off some enemy vills...... even if those tool archers die, you took some of his economy with em, and now he is paranoid, wasting his res making a bigger tool army expecting another wave,or he runs with vills wasting tons of time repitting.... your vills at your base are healthy and producing res......... and i did say after u bronze, you should pop out a camel or something from stable and hit the vills didnt i?

5) on a gig map (which is pretty much played 100 % of the time) , by the time those camels arrive in ur base u will have defenses of your own...... that's why building up is the key to the enemy's early death.....

Sumerian Leper
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 09:26 AM ET (US)     18 / 39       
Blackheart:

What is your take on a "Dock" start as a Minoan? I would think it would more of a possibliity for mino than other civs. Two guys go to water which gives u 3 more guys on wood right away. Probably only if forest is tile or two away from tc huh. Like that happens every game... Anyway just wanted ur opinion on a dock start.

br8k_u_n2
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 11:53 AM ET (US)     19 / 39       
I have had people call me an expert and some call me a rook so I figure I am somewhere in between.
I have used an assyrian strat for what I call the speed boom on cont maps. If I can see berries as my tc pops up, I will not put down a granary at all but just walk my guys to the patch. Six on food in this instance works well. The rest go on wood. Peon #7 builds my second house and looks for good wood. If you have any kind of straggler trees near your tc, you will pit in no time. If you have found a ripe forest, your assy peons will keep you in so much wood, you will smile the whole game. As a matter of fact, I can send out two seperate groups of 2 dock builders each and not be able to crank out enough fish boats. I designate one man strictly to house building because I am able to make boats so fast. I stop making peons when my pop is in the mid 30's depending on how good the map is. My best speed boom was a 14:30 bronze with a pop of almost 70. The map was perfect with a forest and sf all along the shore. I am very fast with my hands and I would like to say I can boom with anyone. I usually take hittites if I am in the mood to win but I take other civs when I want to have fun. IMO, besides shang of course, the Minoans boom better than anyone else on cont maps, even phoenicians. If you are looking to get better and are wanting to really improve your play, I would say start out with Phoenicia. They are a fast civ with good unit diversity and scythe chariots. These are all the attributes of a solid civ, especially for newer players. They are not gold dependent like Minoa, but Minoa is one of the top 3 civs in mid to late bronze, where a lot of games are won. Phoenicia also has slingers, which I upgrade as I am bronzing. I overboom on purpose with pho and those slingers with a few bowmen with armor sprinkled in with them, have held off camels and even cavs who have hit me before I got to bronze. Once I bronze with pho, i make camels asap and upgrade to improved bow, research the wheel, and put up a gc to get nobility. You should have a superior eco to your enemies if you are pho and you need to make tons of composite bowmen to defend wth. Attack with ca's and stone throwers. Defend with cavs and comp bowmen. I mass slingers by the tons also. I already said I get the stone mining upgrade which gives slingers +1 range and attack vs archers. They are super cheap, group easily, and mow down chariot archers. Logistics in the Gov't Center makes them count half toward your pop so get that too. Always Always ALWAYS wall like mad. Even if you cannot wall completely up. I build my buildings to the outskirts of my workers and next to the trees to cut down the angle of attack for the enemy. If you put an arhcery and a barracks on either side of your forest, it will look like your forest has wings, then build walls from the outside of each building, out even farther. I hope you can get this picture in your head. What this does is buys you a lot of time as their units have to walk around the buildings and walls to get to your woodies. I also put buildings inside near my woodies because your units won't pop up on the right side of the wall from the forward ones. Hey it happens. By the time enemy units get around your buildings and walls, you will be able to see if you have enough defense to hold, or if you need to run away. Wall and spread out, wall some more and spread out some more. That's all I can think of for now. Hope this helps.
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 01:10 PM ET (US)     20 / 39       
Leper: a dock start with Minos sux, sorry. In fact, it'll work vs intermediates players but will never work vs good players.

VS good players, you need: food source first (SF or berries) and then mass wood. Also, u gotta use tactics and strats if you wanna beat a GOOD player: and now, I'm talking 'bout someone who's in the top 20 active player right now. I've played some of the best players recently and was pretty cool (it was 1v1) and there was no shitty booms (so lame) and it was only speed-speed and speed, then tactics-tactics and tactics.

Oh yeah, and btw, to the guy who said dancing ain't working vs good players, I've got that to say: I think OoC_Stalin is a good player huh? And he's prolly see my CA dancing in his dreams So I do from his...HF

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 02:55 PM ET (US)     21 / 39       
BlackHeart:
1. I think the key to rushing a boomer would be hitting his boats, instead of just his villies. Oh, and a fast bronze has more resources than you seem to think: they used to do a 30-40 CA rush with it. I think they could afford a few war galleys to go kill the boomer's boats. I think hitting his woodies a bit beforehand could be a good idea, slowing his wood intake to a crawl just before a boat war oughtta hurt his performance, add the fact that you have war galleys vs his scout ships... and his economy is in serious trouble on both land and sea. What do you think?
 
2. Did you read the part about using hunting near forest pit for early food instead of berries? You'd still build up to 20-24 vills as usual, but without the early granary so you'd have wood for more boats. By the time you've emptied 4 gazelles or 2 elephants, the boats should have caught up in food production and you can move all your villies to wood. I had problems remembering to build granaries myself, yesterday, but in the old assy CA rush days I used to build it while tooling when doing the minoan fastboom.
 
3. I dunno, I used to have a lot of success building a huge kick-assy force of compies and systematically clearing the map as I advanced towards the enemy... I used walls to prevent the enemy from reappearing in "cleared" areas without warning, I don't see why the same wouldn't work now. An enemy's forward operation would die early, while you can follow your army with builders building the whole way. Basically, forward build *after* your reach bronze, having kept your previously limited villies at home to increase econ. Please explain why this wouldn't work, this is a deeply engrained habit for me.
 
4. Yeah, I was just saying that it might be better to use cavs instead of camels for the initial bronze attack, since they can kill villies faster. When the opponent starts making camels, you can switch your cav buildings to producing some of your own, without any extra research needed.
 
5. I'll get back to work now, so I can play again. After I get some practice in, I'll show you a few tricks for expert-level defensive play. I used to be very good at it, but right now I can't even boom straight. Thanx for the whooping btw, it was fun losing again.
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 03:14 PM ET (US)     22 / 39       
1) 30-40 ca "rush"? wedsaz *ahem* you're doing it again

2) there is rarely an occasion where u get animals by a forest and can pit em both..... there is like a 1/30 chance u will get a map like that at start of the game...

3) concentrate on annihilating the enemy, walls wont help vs army... walls are only good for keeping out early axers...... they wont stop bronze/iron armies....

4) usually i go for camels cuz they are cheaper and at the moment that being the only thing i can afford....... when i bronze, i get imp/compies, i get shields, i get woodchopping.... and then i usually dont have much res left..... i will always make camels unless im a civ that doesnt have them.... why spend 160 gold when u can spend 120 gold and not be vulnerable to other camels....

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 04:33 PM ET (US)     23 / 39       
Blackheart:
1. They called it a rush, you can call it whatever you want. It certainly wasn't a boom. They bronzed fast and made 30-40 CAs to kill woodies, preferable before the enemy got to bronze.
 
2. Strange, then I must be lucky with persian: I get that kind of spots a lot. Either 4 gazelles or 2 eles, within "herding" distance of a forest.
 
3. Walls will stop forward builders, that was the purpose I was mentioning their use for. If the enemy starts smashing through with an army, you can have a force of compies+camels trained by the time they get to you.
 
4. Wow, you don't have a whole lot of resources after risking such a slow tool for a larger boom. I assume you keep all your villies for wood, but if you have lots of excess food you could make a trade boat or 2 in team games, use that to slowly gather extra gold? Also, forgive my ignorance, but why do you get shields in bronze?
 
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 05:01 PM ET (US)     24 / 39       
40 ca before enemy bronzes.... must have been one hell of an enemy....

yes apparently you are lucky .... especially for never playing the game except the 2 games we played the other night......

um.... n/m.... forget it...

no i dont have much res, thats cuz i use it as fast as i can.... i get compies, wheel, woodchopping , sheield upgrades (i get em in bronze so i get hurt less duuh) and army of course.... i dont wait like you to hit the iron button until i have 1300 food and 1200 gold...... thats why i dont have much res

Piranha
Clubman
posted 05-05-00 05:38 PM ET (US)     25 / 39       
Hmm us experts do sometimes get pissed off at rookies because sometimes we don't like losing pathetic games. But, anyone who curses you out over it is not an EXPERT in my book...

I myself do not like teaching people, because a lot of people I have had experiences with on the zone are ingrates... They will never say thank you and dont seem to care, or understand what time and patience I have for them.

ADVICE TO ROOKIES READ THIS CAREFULLY: DO NOT ENTER EXPERT ONLY Games... this gets many real experts pissed off possibly more than cheating...and one other tip: RoR is not hide-and-go seek... If you are dead resign! There is no point on making a 30 minute or so game last 1 hour +, especially when its laggy. Thanks for reading

~~Sea_of_Piranha

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