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Topic Subject:Food Sources
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The Phoenix
Clubman
posted 04-27-00 10:58 AM ET (US)         
First of all, I want to thank all the people in this forum for making me realize that Random Map is very intersting. I used to find it slow and boring. Now, I really enjoy it and in fact, I have been playing only RMs for the last week or so.

After playing a few RMs, I started to think about food sources.
-Which was the most easily available?
-Which was the fastest source?
-Which was the most efficient source?

To find out, I made a small test scenario using the scenario builder.
This is what I found out.

TIME TAKEN TO GATHER 100 FOOD BY THREE VILLAGERS USING THE
FOLLOWING METHODS:

Fishing: 38 seconds. (shore fish)

Hunting: 60 seconds. (Gazelle)

Gathering: 60 seconds.

Farming: 136 seconds

I also realized some of their demerits:
-If there are more than three fishermen, they do not
gather quickly. They also sometimes stop fishing.

-Persians, of course, have +30% hunting. Also, one elephant
provides as much food as two berry bushes. Elephants can
be lured towards a storage pit or TC by using the hit and
run technique. However, lions and elephants (and
alligators, to a lesser extent) can kill or injure your
villagers.

-Gathering is not as good as hunting because you often have
to build a granary. i.e. you have to use wood. Same with
farms, as they cost 75 wood.

-Only one farmer can farm properly at one time.

CONCLUSION:
If you can fish, that's the best choice.
However, if you are stuck in the highlands,
hunting and then gathering are the next best options.
Farming should be resrted to only in times of dire need.

Hope this helps all of you! (If you didn't know it already)

-The Phoenix.

AuthorReplies:
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 04-27-00 02:05 PM ET (US)     1 / 37       
Farming is almost as fast as hunting and berries except for the fact that farms cost big amount of wood.

In this order: you try to find SF (shore fishing), berries, dumbos, deers if easily "huntable"...(don,t waste 30 secs hunting 'em at min 20-30 in the game, you better farm instead...farms are less management) and farms. Note that fishing with FB (fishing boats) is as good as berries. Berries are better than dumbos cuz a berries set got more food in it than 2 dumbos (of course, if you have a 2 dumbos and a forest, go for it...or a 6 dumbos and nothing else around)...Simply count how much food you got available.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-27-00 03:53 PM ET (US)     2 / 37       
Phoenix:
Try your test on persian hunting sometime, I think you'll be amazed at the results.
The Phoenix
Clubman
posted 04-28-00 12:55 PM ET (US)     3 / 37       
SuN_Cam_Popov:

Farming is NOT as fast as hunting or gathering. Didn't you see the results of my test? Farming takes more than twice as long. And while berries do have more food totally than a pair of elephants, you have to build a granary, which I consider a waste of wood.

Wedsaz: I'll try it with Persians soon.

SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 04-28-00 05:35 PM ET (US)     4 / 37       
Well, 10 farmers on 1 FARM is as fast as 1 villie on 1 famr ;-)

3 villies on 3 farms in HOW IT WORKS. The speed for berries is 0.45, hunting 0.45 and farming 0.40...see now? ;-)

Dave
Clubman
posted 04-28-00 06:55 PM ET (US)     5 / 37       
When you finally do farm, whether by choice or necessity, are those farm upgrades worth it? I think that they increase the lifetime of the farms by 75% (not sure). Anyway, do people use these kinds of upgrades?
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-28-00 07:17 PM ET (US)     6 / 37       
The Phoenix:

Here are the definitive stats, by Neilkaz (the master RoR statistician):
http://www.mrfixitonline.com/readPosting.asp?PostingId=38143

RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-28-00 07:18 PM ET (US)     7 / 37       
Farm upgrades are your last priority usually...woodchopping/wheel is always first.
The Phoenix
Clubman
posted 04-30-00 03:11 AM ET (US)     8 / 37       
Thanks, RomanGladius.
I AM wrong about farms being slower.

However, I still maintain that they are a waste of wood.

And shore fishing is still the fastest.

Dave:
The farm upgrade, imho, is rather expensive.

Hyper
Clubman
posted 04-30-00 09:58 AM ET (US)     9 / 37       
One civ that *should* farm no matter what at some point is sumy. Sumy farms START with 500 food. not counting farm upgrades. 75 wood for 500 food is a great deal
Dave
Clubman
posted 04-30-00 01:32 PM ET (US)     10 / 37       
So sum is best for farming? Is mino best for fishing and persia best for hunting?
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 04-30-00 01:35 PM ET (US)     11 / 37       
Use Shangs and you'll be able to do whatever you want and you'll be able to do it easily.
The Phoenix
Clubman
posted 05-01-00 00:15 AM ET (US)     12 / 37       
Minoans are good for fishing and Persians are good for hunting, but Shang is rotten. The only good thing about Shang is that their villagers are cheaper.
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 05-01-00 00:39 AM ET (US)     13 / 37       
Not really: only thing Shangs got isn't their cheap villies: that's A HUGE BONUS! Shangs is the fastest civ to get throught the ages.
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 05-01-00 00:54 AM ET (US)     14 / 37       
Shang is "rotten". Wow I'm learning all sorts of great stuff. I'm gonna quit playing Shang and move over to those powerful Persians. LOL.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-01-00 01:25 AM ET (US)     15 / 37       
The_Phoenix:
Shang is far from rotten, they are the most balanced of the fast civs. Their villie cost bonus may not seem like much, but they can bronze in 12 mins because of it, and they can survive a crappy start. It also applies well to any strat and any map, whereas persian's hunting bonus and minoan's boat bonus don't.
 
Minoan has great fishing, but it doesn't give them much of an advantage until 9 mins or so. I wouldn't play them on hills, either.
 
Persian can be very fast, but in mid-bronze their economy starts to fall behind because they lack artisanship and the wheel. Their ranged units are also below average after that point. If you didn't attack before this speed bump, you're probably gonna lose.
 
SuN_Cam_Popov:
I think shang is the 2nd fastest civ, persian gets the crown for speed if they get some early hunting. However, shang is without a doubt the most stable civ. No civ can recover from a bad start better than shang, and they're fast and flexible no matter what the map.
 
BlitzkreigComin:
Hehe, persian can be cool sometimes, but don't worry shang is still good.
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 05-01-00 10:13 AM ET (US)     16 / 37       
I know Persians "can" be faster:but let's face it:in a 1v1, you'd play Shangs or Pers? I'd rather be Romz or Yassy before Persians.

BTW, the fastest tool that can be done is with the Palmy with 4 or 5 villies, I've forgot.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-01-00 03:23 PM ET (US)     17 / 37       
SuN_Cam_Popov:
Really? How fast, and using which food source(s)?
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-01-00 07:19 PM ET (US)     18 / 37       
SuN_Cam_Popov:
hmm, my top picks for 1v1 large conti would be:
1. shang - Because I suck at rushing, else persian would probably be #1 on my list for 1v1. I'd probably just wall my side and try to win by attrition.
2. persian - I'd at least try them. Fastest civ to bronze, I haven't yet had a spot without enough hunting nearby to do their 11 min bronze. They have camels and compies, rome doesn't.
3. minoan - Fast and strong if they can boom, can win a sea war vs any civ. They have camels and, of course, the best compies.
4. roman - Aah, the tower rush. Their cheap buildings help their speed, and they get scythes which makes them less reliant on gold than civs that don't.

5. palmy - On maps with some water, they can do a small boom to stabilize villie production. After that, they can do a decent tool rush due to their fast economic buildup, or go for their nearly-full bronze. (missing logistics and a few priest techs won't change much)
 
That's the ones I would use vs experts. Add yam before palmy, babylon and phoenie after vs intermediates.
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 05-01-00 07:36 PM ET (US)     19 / 37       
Persians for 1v1 Conti Large before Yassy? and Palmy? and Minos??? You on crack?

My picks=Yams and Shangs (even:shnags are faster to tool and better walls hp but yams can run away from an axers-tool arhcers-slingers easily and Yams got Navy HP bonus), Assy and then Romz.

For fast palmy tool as being the fastest possible in the game, I don't recall exactly if it's with 4 or 5 villies: I know it gives ya a tool under 5:00 for sure (don't recall the exact times, sorry): use SF and few strags by the SF-Pit. And you end up in tool but no eco ;P So it blows, hehe

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-01-00 09:10 PM ET (US)     20 / 37       
SuN_Cam_Popov:
Until (or unless) the opponent reaches mid-bronze, persian is better than you think.
 
I can't handle fast units, that's why I didn't put yam on my list.
 
So, is this your list for 1v1 large conti?
1. yamato - Fast villies to relocate, good navy, cheap scouts and cavalry. Starts losing battles as soon as enemy bronzes and pumps some camels.
2. shang - Flexible and reliably fast civ. With no single kick-assy bonus to win battles with, shang isn't the best at anything. Loses to overwhelming powers such as romans, minoans, etc.
3. assy - Good CAs if they can get there. Good thing they have fast villies to relocate, because against a tower rush they'll have to do a lot of that. Add scouts to catch the fleeing villies.
4. roman - Master of tool age warfare, a roman tower rush is hard to stop. It better work, because their bronze lacks good archery and camels.
 
Every civ has flaws. (although some, like greek, have little to compensate...)
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 05-01-00 09:56 PM ET (US)     21 / 37       
Hey, it's 1v1 Large conti..not 1v1 conti huge...so forget Minos...

Also, Assy is good for their tool archers, not CA...CA comes later...it game gets to brz...

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-02-00 01:43 AM ET (US)     22 / 37       
SuN_Cam_Popov:
Minoans are a good civ, if played right. They're just favored by rookies right now, who couldn't do much better with any other civ. Yam has tougher boats and slightly faster woodcutting, minoan has cheaper boats. Yam's scouts and cavs cost less, minoan's cheaper boats get more food/good for you. The big differences: yam can run away from tool armies better, minoan compies rule bronze. Try them, doing more or less the same thing you do with yam... you may be surprised.
 
Tool archers? Haven't you heard of slingers? Assy bowmen can be countered. Assy can't counter tool towers. Just use towers+scouts vs assy, and you can kick them back to stone age.
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 05-02-00 01:56 AM ET (US)     23 / 37       
Don't worry, I know how to play Minos pretty well

You said: what best civs for 1v1 conti-large: sorry but, if you use Minos, u a rook.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 05-02-00 02:33 AM ET (US)     24 / 37       
I played minoan for 2 years, through yam cav rushes, assy CA rushes, and shang rushes of all kinds. I know how to play them.
 
However, I never fight minoan with minoan if I can avoid it, nor minoan vs hittite. Since those were very popular civs in no-shang RoR on maps with both land and water, I've been looking for another pet civ.
 
Minoan rocks assy on any map with both land and water. They also beat yam, especially now since minoan got camels. Finally, minoan even beats any shang who doesn't tool before 10 mins, which I hear is the norm for tool rushing now. Finally, minoan beats roman if the fight gets to bronze, which even 1v1 my games do. At least, I do... whether the other guy follows is up to him.
Lotus_Esprit_V8
Clubman
posted 05-02-00 01:26 PM ET (US)     25 / 37       
Palmyran rocks, heck, plamyran beats the livin' daylights out of shang if done right. This best works for smaller than huge maps, water maps . Make 1 peon (for a total of 4) and make storage pit by no less than 4 shore fish, start fishing with three, have the 4th cut 20 wood, make dock, and tell him to go fishing, ok, 2:30 get ready to hit tool. :P OH YAH, just make some peons (when you start tool, take off 2 peons to get wood) houses, barracks, clubem, armour 1st, then attack + 2, when ya make 3 or so clubbers, send em in to shang, and dont forget to uprgade to axers.

Now, what happens...

Shang looks for resign by pressing F10, or goes to Menu>Resign>Yes... All this cuz you killed his 13-20 villies in stone, immagine that, he's probably not even starting tool upgrade, LOL

------------------
Vladislav
Zone: _Lost_Atlantis_

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