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Topic Subject:Catapult counter-attacks
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Dave
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 06:14 PM ET (US)         
I have been reading alot of posts that talk about how cats can kill various types of units. I don't get it. How? Seems to me that cats can only kill anything that CAN'T MOVE like towers and buildings. Even the slowest moving infantry units just have to move a little bit to avoid cat fire. If you approach cats in a zig-zag manner, you can get to them without a scratch. Send in some units to also deal with their supporting units and cats are dead meat. Even a lowly villie only needs a few wacks at a cat and it's done.

So how do cats kill military units?

AuthorReplies:
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 11:11 PM ET (US)     26 / 73       
Wicked_Spirit:
I don't think 10 helos can beat 75 scythes unless they're on a hill or behind a choke point. 20 helos? Yeah. 20 helos vs 75 scythes would seem like good odds, but consider how much gold there is on a map, as opposed to how much wood. The scythe user can keep on swarming you till you run out of gold. I know this because someone did it to me, I ended up having to switch to cents because all the gold mines were gone and I had to use the gold from trading.
 
Therefore, I would say helos vs scythes is a race, to see if the helo user can crush the scythe user before running out of gold. Helos are powerful, but scythes are forever. (almost)
 
SuN_Cam_Popov:
You can beat minoan with greek in default RM medit? I'm glad to hear that.
 
Who cares about hills? This is RoR, people play medit and conti now.
 
Are you capable of disagreeing with someone without calling him a rookie?
 
Yes, formations probably help a lot but scythes can be mass produced longer.
 
Sure, I'll be happy to see how you form them up next time I go on the zone.
Wicked_Spirit
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 08:57 AM ET (US)     27 / 73       
Wedsaz,

"Who cares about hills? This is RoR, people play medit and conti now."

Man, you don't even play the game, what do you know? Hills-Defaults-Random is the toughest game there is. It is usually the boomers who didn't ever play AoE in the beginning that don't like hills. Takes a lot more skill to be consistently good when you gotta go find your food, not just run to the middle or edge of the map. Medit/Conti are fun, but you wanna know how good someone really is, go play em on hills a few times.

I did not mean 75 scythes all storming in at once. Over a few waves, it will probably take at least that many to wear the helos down.

"I ended up having to switch to cents because all the gold mines were gone and I had to use the gold from trading."

Umm, if gold is tight, spending it on a highly expensive upgrade for a hand-to-hand unit against scythes is idiotic. At least heles have a chance to kill without being touched. The cents will take damage every time. And fall victim to the same swarming techniques. Phalanxes are not so bad either. And with the 700 gold you save, you could build a lot more of em.

[This message has been edited by Wicked_Spirit (edited 04-21-2000).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 04:01 PM ET (US)     28 / 73       
Wicked_Spirit:
Naval bonuses such as minoan's are useless on hills. Wood bonuses such as phoenie's and palmy's are also less useful. You can't trade, which limits the gold supply for gold-using units, making scythes and CAs the supreme units.
 
The civs that are left on hills: assy, bab, egy, hit, pho, rom, sha, sum. Half the civs are gone.
 
Duh, of course I used phalanxes. I said cents because most people don't seem to notice the unit they upgrade to it from.
 
If you send in scythes 1 by 1 against 10 helos, my opinion of you just dropped a lot. If you can send in big hordes, why shouldn't you? All the good scythe users I've seen use them in huge hordes, enough to fill 2 screens.
Wicked_Spirit
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 05:10 PM ET (US)     29 / 73       
Wedsaz,

Man, you have all these f---in theories, and you don't know WTF you are talking about. Palmy does fine on hills, so does mace, so does mino and so does Yam. Are there better civs for hills? Yes, but there are better civs for all maps you dolt. Carth, Greek, Persian and Choson pretty much blow no matter what map you use (and I don't wanna hear your stories about your 2 minute bronze with Persia or whatever). And no civ is gone when you choose random. I have seen every civ succeed with random. Every map "excludes" some of the civs if you wanna go around being a candy-ass about everything.

If you used phalanxes, why did you say cents? You spew enough bs and have been called to the carpet for it by several people. Maybe you should just tell the truth instead of making stuff up.

The people who read this forum:
a) Know where and what a phalanx is
b) Actually play the game

Once again, like I said, you are clueless when it comes to scythes vs. heles. I said, "over a few waves." Now if you take "a few" to mean 3, then I mean 3 waves of 25 you dumbshit, not 1 at a time for 75 scythes. If your opponent can build up two screen-fulls of scythes, then you must be playing sim city. No one has ever brought in that many scythes on me in one wave. Maybe over time they build up, but if they are building up it is because they are kicking your ass.

If a good player has helos, you will never be given the chance to build up because they will be up in your face with em the whole time.

Sorry if this comes off harsh, I am just tired of seeing you respond like you have the definitive answer when you are not even close.

Either way, if you ever get on the zone, I will be in line behind the others here who are waiting to play you (Either against or with you, I just really wanna see what you can do).

BigPointyTeeth or Wicked_Spirit are my z-names.

[This message has been edited by Wicked_Spirit (edited 04-21-2000).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 06:55 PM ET (US)     30 / 73       
Wicked_Spirit:
Maybe you don't realize this, but not everyone has the same playing style. I'm a very defensive player, I advance slowly and systematically. In this style of play, it's important to be ready before the rushers are so I work hard to go fast up the ages. Maybe that's why we don't seem to understand each other, we may not be from the same school of thought.
 
Some say "attack first at any cost". I disagree. I believe it was sun tzu who said, "attack only after the war is won". That's what I do, and I've beaten some very good players that way.
 
No, I don't have answers to everything. However, I really don't like the way you try to dismiss mathematical proof with a simple "you don't even play the game". You listen to what sandy has to say even if he doesn't have the highest rating in the game, don't you? My point is, you shouldn't take my word for anything I say, but you should try it before you shoot it down. Oh, and just because you haven't seen the things I talk about doesn't mean they can't be done.
 
Hehe, yeah it looks like I have some good games ahead of me when I can get back on the zone.
Dave
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 03:08 AM ET (US)     31 / 73       
Well, getting back to the original question about cats...

From my findings, cats are nothing without proper infantry/cavalry support.

I did a few tests in the scenario builder. I made 50 enemy cats and 5 cavs for me. I only needed 2 cavs to mow down all of the 50 cats. You take one fast moving unit and run around the cats and whenever possible, you try to cut in between the cats. The trick is to stay close but never stop moving and never visit the same spot until a little time has passed. If possible you move in front of a cat and "lead" it's path. You never have to fire a shot or swing a sword.

I then tried three tests with 100 heavy cats. Each time I only needed one cav. One time, my cav only got hit once by the cats - hardly a scratch.

I put some enemy archers in the mix and then things got hard. So it appears that you don't need to be afraid of cats if they have no support. Which is a good thing I suppose otherwise all you have to do to win is amass a ton of cats.

CoMBaT Villager
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 03:25 AM ET (US)     32 / 73       
ok dave...

were these stone age cats or post iron age??? were they hittite or whatever the other civs name was that has 50% faster cat fire rate? these make difference's. iron age cats know how to hit enemies, they dont shoot where he was, they shoot where he will be when the stone hits.

ok, im not going to be like blackheart but your story about killing 100 heavy cats with one cav and only getting hit once is a huge load of crap... with 100 cats your cav would be lucky to make it there... and if he did theres no way he took the time at each cat to kill it without being "hit" by any others. just please admite your story about 100 cats and a cav is wrong... caus thats plain impossible unless the comp wasnt attacking at all.

Dave
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 03:38 AM ET (US)     33 / 73       
I don't remember from which age they were or which civ but does it really matter that much? I mean - 100 heavy cats downed by one cavalry.

The trick, as I wrote, was that you never stop moving and you never try to kill any cats. If you do of course you are dead. But since you are always moving and moving fast, no shots ever hit you because the cats can only fire on you and not on some spot where they think you will go. If you move fast enough but close enough to them you avoid even the biggest damage area and the fastest fire rate.

I found that circling around them continuously works best. Whenever you can, you "cut corners" in between them. Then watch them wack each other out trying to hit you.

And Combat Villager, if you truly do not want to be like Blackheart then why don't you try it yourself in the scenario builder (like I did 5 times) before you attempt to dimiss my post as "crap".

Dave
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 05:00 AM ET (US)     34 / 73       
O.K. I just tried it again and this time I checked what the settings were. I used 100 Hittite iron-age heavy catapults. This time I goofed a few times (since it is very late now and I'm tired) and I needed 5 cavalry to wipe out all 100 heavy cats. My cavalry were iron age cataphracts. My fifth cavalry had about half of its hit points remaining when the battle was over.

I checked out the post-iron age cats though and you are right - they will fire where they think the enemy will be and not where it already is. So post-iron age cats are practially impossible to overcome - maybe you need post-iron cats to battle post-iron cats?

But still, unless your opponent is in iron age with the necessary catapult upgrades, his horde of cats can be dealt with. Isn't that something?

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 06:05 AM ET (US)     35 / 73       
Try using martyrdom priests against port-iron cats. I'd like to hear the results.
Dave
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 10:06 AM ET (US)     36 / 73       
Here's the results with the cats vs marty priests test:

Bottom line: it is extremely hard if not impossible to pull it off.

I used 100 post-iron age Hittite heavy cats and I had 10 post-iron age Egyptian priests. I couldn't get near enough to one of the center cats to try and convert it. So the best you can do is convert a cat on the perimeter of the cluster. But this will not achieve the goal of getting the cats to fire on themselves.

The problem is that you need a unit that is damn fast. The cataphract that I was using in my earlier tests was not quite fast enough to avoid the path guessing of the post-iron cats.

Any suggestions for the fastest unit to test with?

Wuzat
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 02:17 PM ET (US)     37 / 73       
to kill massed postimp hcats with or without backup, you have to strike the economy. Kill ALL his villagers and tcs, and suddenly he is weakened severely. continue to spread yourself, and make sure to keep some stockpiled res if one of your settlements fails, or your army is killed. If you kill his villagers, he runs out of builders. if you kill houses and he has no builders, he cannot make reinforcements. if he has no reinforcements, you have to wear him down. namely by sending kamikaze scouts while he is moving. that way they dont fire immediately. also, send in troops while he is killing stuff, then you may get in some kills there. if you have em, helo do well against cats if you can distract em long enough. point and fact:econ is key, no econ usually means no win.
CoMBaT Villager
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 03:56 PM ET (US)     38 / 73       
sorry dave, i dont mean to say your post was compleat crap but i have just been a hittite Dm-er for one whole year, i know my cats....

heres some rules with post iron hittite cats,
1. if you run in a strait line you will be pounded by cat fire.. try this is a test, make a towncenter for you, and 1 heavy post iron cat for them. type in bigdaddy.. take your car and pass infront of the cat but right after he fires stop moving... now watch that catapult stone fly further then a nuke trooper missle the reason is the cat fired to match your speed and angle so that if you kept moving the same way you were you would get hit.
2. hittite heavy cats are strong! you must have played forever to make 100 heavy cats self destruct
3. your doing it with comp controlled cats. humans dont use cats the same way.

i'll tell you what, find me on the zone as x7x_Leader or CoMBaT_ViLaGeR_ and ZM me, and i will show you how humans use cats, i'll be hittite and you be who ever with your 5 cavs and we will see who lose's more units... you may kill 1 or 2 of my cats but if the lag is low then your in for a suprise.

cavs are one of cats worst enemies but out numbering 100 to 1 is crazy...

Caesar Constintine
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 04:30 PM ET (US)     39 / 73       
All I know about Catipults, is that they are dangerous when you have 100 of them attacking your main city and colonies, and nothing can stand in their way...
Dave
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 04:53 PM ET (US)     40 / 73       
Combat Villager,

The results I posted were only a test to see how effective hcats are alone. I started the thread because I had read here and there in the other threads that people just mass cats and leave them somewhere on the map to defend some strategic point.

Of course, there are some things that have to be considered when looking at the results.

1) They were against the computer
2) The battle tests were in an open area where I was able to manoeuver around them. If you can't go around them, it is a lot harder. So in a real game situation if your enemy piles a whole bunch of hcats in a narrow pass between, say, two forests then it's a different ball game.

I'm not trying to say that you only need 1 or 5 cavs to down 100 Hittite hcats. All I wanted to see was whether cats on their own (with no supporting units) make a good attack or defense strategy. The 1 and 5 numbers just show that hcats do have an Achilles' heel. With a human player who is using them more intelligently you definitely will need more - but maybe not 100 cavs to kill 100 hcats.

Anyway, I think hcats need good infantry support to protect them while they do their damage. Unless they have those nasty cat upgrades - in which case I think you need to match cat fire with cat fire.

I don't doubt that you know your cats. I'm sure it would be different than the computer tests I made. I am, however, interested in taking you up on your zone offer just because I'm curious as to how people use those hcats - which was the reason for starting the thread in the first place.

BTW, I love surprises!

CoMBaT Villager
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 05:37 PM ET (US)     41 / 73       
your right about one thing, cats do good with another unit, that unit is the balista tower.. not cavs or legions, i'll show you on the zone the very best mix to hold a shallows or something...
HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 04-24-00 10:33 AM ET (US)     42 / 73       
Wedsaz,

Don't you think it's time you partitioned your drive or something? If you were waiting for a directX emulator or something, don't hold your breath. Even if anyone were trying such a thing, Microsoft would fight it tooth and nail. You strike me as someone who knows a little about computers (duh, no idiot would suddenly spurn windows and turn to the intimidating linux) so how about it? An experienced user knows he needs to partition his drive anyway...

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-24-00 04:53 PM ET (US)     43 / 73       
HonoredMule:
No space, my 2 disks are already nearly full as it is, I had to put my mp3 collection on CD just to have some working space.
 
Also, my graphics card on this computer sucks, and it's a low pentium. Not a good choice for AoE, I think.
 
Last but not least, I'm supposed to be working. I can sneak in a few minutes of forum reading and posting, but imagine trying to hide a 3-hour game of AoE!
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-24-00 10:45 PM ET (US)     44 / 73       
The points about killing cats alone are pointless. ANYTHING that moves partially fast can kill a whole HORDE of cats that are by themselves (this includes the almighty WHEELED VILLAGER with a total cost of 50f and 25 hp!...forget about hcavalry!) The point is that if you BACK UP your cats with something, be it scythes, legions, HCats, or heles, they are pretty much unstoppable. Just look at the Summie/Hittite HCat/HA (or its weaker cousins, the Bab, Assy, and Palmy versions of it)...nearly unstoppable. HCats beat on other siege and ranged units, while HAs mop up on hand-to-hand units (except for Cho legions and Egy scythes, in that case, less HCats more archers). If you have dual siege, that works even better and really is unstoppable in critical mass except against a player with more/better HCats.

Priests aren't as bad as some people think, but are far from ideal. A good player that is microing will just tell all his cats to stand or attack ground while a few supporting units beat up on the lone cat that was converted. Which means you end up with a dead priest, a dead converted unit, and no dead enemy units to show for it. But it is very annoying and takes the cat-user away from the battle to micro his stupid cats (and away from his econ, but if he has hcats, he probably has one huge econ anyway...and so do you if you can afford martyrdom priests). Besides, the priests have to be micro'd even more than the cats...

Dave
Clubman
posted 04-25-00 00:49 AM ET (US)     45 / 73       
You misunderstand the point of the exercise.

It is too easy to just say: "cats are invincible" and then leave it at that. I tested them to see how strong they are.

So I wanted to have hard-data results to see how effective cats are alone. Why? Because from the postings it sounded as if some players massed cats and then put them at some strategic location and then didn't do much microing. Also, I wanted to get a better idea of the cats strengths and weaknesses.

They need good supporting units, of course. And the tests prove it. But as Combat Villager pointed out, when they are post-iron with the intelligent-fire upgrades, it doesn't seem like they need much support! You just leave enough of them and they will almost take of themselves!

Then I tried wedsaz's idea of the marty priests vs post-iron cats and I found that that strat is very difficult to pull-off.

Now, my next question is: which units give the best support for cats? I mean best protection also taking into account least amount of resource cost.

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-25-00 06:54 PM ET (US)     46 / 73       
Dave

I say cats are Hittite Cats are invincible. A large group of cats is more dominant advancing than guarding. If I have a large group of Hittite Cats moving towards your city, you will not have a city in 20-25 seconds. Ballista towers, fortification walls, villas, and any military units you are trying to get massed together will be destroyed.

By the time you have enough houses and stables somewhere else on the map, the Cats will more than likely be larger in number and crush the city.

I have been on the losing end of a Hittite cat attack many times. As Yamato, I have had success at slowing groups down by sending one suicide scout in at a time continuosly until I have no food left. Unfortunately though, in a game on the Zone at least, if an opponent that is Hittite or Sumerian has heavy cats it is an uphill battle. If they get the heavy cat it means they have a strong economy to get it, which means they will have a strong economy to produce several heavy cats.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-25-00 07:12 PM ET (US)     47 / 73       
What about persian war eles?
 
From what I've seen they're fast enough to avoid cat stones in RoR, and once they're up close they're rather hard to kill. Also, their gold cost is half that of a cat.
 
Dave, were the priests post-iron with a full-temple civ like shang or phoenie? If not, you may have been missing out on an important +3 range from afterlife, and possibly also an equally important speed boost from polytheism.
 
RomanGladius:
A heavy cat will kill HHAs with 2 stones, converted or not, and has 150hps, or 300 if hittite. If he stops firing, you'll take a lot of HHAs, scythes or other defensive units with it.
RomanGladius
AOKH DM Champion
posted 04-25-00 08:34 PM ET (US)     48 / 73       
Persian war ellies are the bane of heavy catapults, unfortuantely Persian can't make many of them with that crap economy of theirs. The usual Cats support (horse archers or helepolis) can take down ellies quite nicely as well. And then there's that problem if the cat user has some priests (which they always should to heal units and especially against Persian)...

If you want to use a hand-to-hand unit against cats, Cho legions or scythes are the way to go...you can actually produce them. The easiest to counter protected cats is with...more cats (although the priest thing can sometimes work as well).

More on martyring priests: http://www.laserefx.com/aoe/ROR_AOE/strategy_martyrdom.htm

BTW if you are good enough to get the hcat upgrade in RM and mass produce them, then surely you must be smart enough to know to build horse archers or helepoli for protection. I'd hope so anyway...

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-25-00 10:21 PM ET (US)     49 / 73       
RomanGladius:
Persia's economy isn't as bad as it seems. Their main weakness is woodcutting, but they aren't spending it on chariots or super-siege are they? As for food and gold, their fishing and trade boats are as good as anyone's, and their gold mining is no worse than shang's. I hear most people don't even research the farming upgrades at all! If hittite or sumer can afford 50 heavy cats, I think persian could afford enough eles to counter them.
 
The only civ with full cats and good priests is babylon. Ever noticed that? All the other cat civs have poor priests.
 
If they have only a few support units, ignore them and charge with the elephants. If they have at least 1/3rd support units, martyr some cats and use them against the enemy's own support troops!
 
I've heard massed cats defeat legions (even choson ones) because they have area damage. Scythes are fast enough to avoid most of the stones while closing in, and once they're up close the cat's stones hit themselves as well.
 
Easy doesn't always mean effective. More cats only works if you have equal cats. If the cat user is a hittite with lots of experience using that civ, fighting him cat for cat is probably not a good idea. I always try to avoid fighting an opponent with the same civ, since they are usually better with their favorite civ and I therefore lose. It's better to find and use the appropriate counter-civ, shifting the odds as far to your own side as possible.
Dave
Clubman
posted 04-26-00 12:27 PM ET (US)     50 / 73       
BlitzkriegComin: when you say Hittite cats do you mean post-iron hcats with the intelligent fire upgrades? If so, I agree. They seem to be really formidable. Recall that I tested with Hittite post-iron heavy cats and I found that it's nearly impossible to take them out - you can't even get near them! Without the upgrades though you some chance. Maybe in an online game, which can have lag time, you will still suffer casualties against even non-upgraded cats when employing the draw-fire manouever but I'm guessing (from my tests) that you can do at least *something*. Let me know if your experience leads you to believe otherwise (and how). BTW, when you send in 20-30 cats do you use supporting units or do you just rely on the hcats strenths? Cause if you just use cats alone you may want to benefit from my tests and rethink your attack strategy. Even though it is hard, you might one day meet an opponent who knows how to attack your cats properly.

wedsaz: The marty priest tests used post-iron Egyptian priests. I will test again with your other suggestions. But note that any extra distance for unit conversion advantages are lost when the enemy has lots of cats massed together. This is because the marty strat needs to convert a cat in the center of the pack and you can't get close enough to convert it without the ones on the permiter firing on you. That was the main problem that I saw.

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