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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Catapult counter-attacks
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Topic Subject:Catapult counter-attacks
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Dave
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 06:14 PM ET (US)         
I have been reading alot of posts that talk about how cats can kill various types of units. I don't get it. How? Seems to me that cats can only kill anything that CAN'T MOVE like towers and buildings. Even the slowest moving infantry units just have to move a little bit to avoid cat fire. If you approach cats in a zig-zag manner, you can get to them without a scratch. Send in some units to also deal with their supporting units and cats are dead meat. Even a lowly villie only needs a few wacks at a cat and it's done.

So how do cats kill military units?

AuthorReplies:
The Composite
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 06:35 PM ET (US)     1 / 73       
I've done it before. If a military unit comes too close to a cat it will attack. The thing is you need clusters of them. One cat can't do anything. But 10 cats can do a lot more!
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 06:49 PM ET (US)     2 / 73       
every army unit can do damage vs other units..... what do you mean how do cats kill army units? they shoot stones and kill guys..... of course that cats are more effective against compies than against scythes or cavs... but that doesnt mean that cats CANT kill cavs or .... what are u asking again? does this thread have a point?
Dave
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 06:49 PM ET (US)     3 / 73       
But don't cats fire on the location of the unit? If so, then even if you have a cluster of cats won't they all fire in pretty much the same spot? Then all you have to do is wait for them to fire, then advance, wait for them to fire, then advance, ... soon enough you're right in front of them and at that point they can't hit you. Only supporting units can save them. So if you send in enough units you can hold off their supporting units while you wack off the cats.

Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 06:54 PM ET (US)     4 / 73       
that depends..... usually if there is a group of cats and you send in just 1 cav.... they will self destruct eachother trying to hurt you..... but.... a person wont make cats if he sees you use cavs........ so...... u gotta use whats good for the situation...... obviously if you kill off some dude's 50 cat army with 5 dancing cavs ..... he wont keep making more cats....
Dave
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 07:22 PM ET (US)     5 / 73       
Which brings me back to pretty much the original question. Against which units are cats successful? And then even against those units, aren't cats at a slight disadvantage?
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 07:38 PM ET (US)     6 / 73       
cats kill : all archers, and slow moving units.... hoplite, swordsmen, elephants, priests, helos.. what else is there...

cavs, camels, chariots or scythes .... are fast hand to hand units.... they have an advantage vs cats....


although you have to look at other factors, such as civs (for example assy cats dont get engineering) ...... and what supporting units you have for cats, and what mixed units does the enemy use ...... there is too many different factors in ror to have a final say on what cats kill and what kills cats...

Caesar Augustus
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 09:53 PM ET (US)     7 / 73       
course one cats easy to kill, but a huge mass of them with all the upgrades is near impossible. Nothing can beat a large quantity of one or more units. Hell one time I took down a town in multi using about s zillion axers, and a few chariot archers, after I ran out of gold. or my opponent scrounged it all before I got a good amount.
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-18-00 09:55 PM ET (US)     8 / 73       
huge mass of cats? send in 1 cav to the middle of th cats... watch em all kill eachother...... or just use a big mass of cats with full upgrades of your own
Caesar Augustus
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 00:57 AM ET (US)     9 / 73       
I mean huge armys of like 30-40 cats, with a bunch of charot archers as backers. I never send cats alone. besides if you have enough cats it'll kill the cav before he even gets there.

[This message has been edited by Caesar Augustus (edited 04-19-2000).]

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 02:08 AM ET (US)     10 / 73       
Dave

If someone will be gracious (inexperienced) enough to let me steal his gold mines and build my favorite army - 50 or more (100 would be GREAT)Hittite Heavy Catapults on a hill- nothing can touch them. I used to have fantasies about putting my Minoan partner's Helepolis behind them to protect from Scythe but in that number they don't need any help and your opponents only hope is Big Daddy.

Send 200 Scythe, 200 Cataphract, 200 Armored Ele's and I will still bet on Super Cats (I would like to see that - hmmm). There will just be a trail of carnage leading to the Cats, and some (probably few) cats will be standing. I once played a Roman (no joke) on a Medit map that tried to cross the shallows into my land. I had 40-50 Hittite Heavy Cats guarding it and they were on a hill. He sent a screen full of Legion, and not one of them touched a Cat, then he resigned.

To summarize, a huge army of Hittite Heavy Cats can kill any other Civ's super unit in any quantity or combo. One counter measure I will use against Hittite Heavy Cats is several Scouts one at a time and have them kill each other and costing me nothing. But one scout won't get near a huge army of 40-50.

Dave
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 11:09 AM ET (US)     11 / 73       
Cool! So you need at least 30 cats? I'm gonna test this out in the scenario builder and see what comes out. Thanks!
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 02:51 PM ET (US)     12 / 73       
What about martyrdom priests? They can do their deed before the stone hits.
 
With some egyptian martyrs, followed by scythes once cats are below critical mass, maybe... ?
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 08:15 PM ET (US)     13 / 73       
nah.... priests are expensive enough as it is..... i doubt anyone would waste 600 on martydom..... especially since by thinking about using priests means you are in a desperate situation, and wasting gold like that would not seem like a good idea....
Elijeh
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 09:01 PM ET (US)     14 / 73       
Wasting gold? Convert one hitter cat: allthe others fir on it, all aroudn it self destructs. Yummy. 6-8 cats for the cost of a priest.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 09:52 PM ET (US)     15 / 73       
What he said.
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 10:04 PM ET (US)     16 / 73       
nobody, and i mean NOBODY uses priests nowadays in ror... especially in boom maps...... besides, even if someone did...., it would be dumb to group cats together, whoever grouped cats like that and let you use 1 priest to take out 6 of his cats must have been a real good player.... ooh wait.... that never happened, you're just "supposing" like wedsaz always does ... bah....if i make cats in a game i separate em.... always..... i know the consequences of tight grouping when it comes to cats.....

[This message has been edited by Blackheart (edited 04-19-2000).]

RageOMatic
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 11:00 PM ET (US)     17 / 73       
I bet you didnt know that a egypt martydom priest gets a maximum of 16 range. And a hcat only gets 15 .
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-19-00 11:30 PM ET (US)     18 / 73       
whats your point? priests still suck...... nobody is gonna be dumb enough to group all their cats into 1 pile and let some dumb priest convert the middle one....... unless they dont know any better
CoMBaT Villager
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 01:41 AM ET (US)     19 / 73       
what do you mean arm yof 30 cats??? thats crazy!!! when i used to use Hittite all the time i would have, 75 villagers to supply me, 100 cats, 25 centurions in front of the cats. this group could kill anything except for an army of catafracts. i would kill over half of them but then some would get to close to shoot at. oh, i dont mean i would use one huge mass of 100 cats... 50 each in a group, attacking from 2 sides.

but those were the old days, now im a assy man. horse archers are very good against cats if you use them right. send a couple archers right up the the cats so the front cats cant shoot you. make your archers attack the cats in the rear. by the time the archers are dead, the cats in the front are killed by the ones in back and the back ones are hurtin badly from the archers.

then of course, a group of around 50 cats and 50 hele's are close to unstopable, any cav's, or anything trying to get up close to your cats gets pounded by hele's.

but anytime your using alot of cats they will all ways kill each other.

and priest are pretty pointless. they only pay for them selfs some times. its rare to get your moneys worth out of a preist in a real war.

*i think i'll shut up now before i say something totaly wrong*

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 01:53 AM ET (US)     20 / 73       
With martyrdom priests, you're guaranteed to get at least one cat for every priest, even if the cats are on a hill behind a pass and guarded by cents AND heles. Hittite cats welcome. Can you say the same for any other unit?
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 02:05 AM ET (US)     21 / 73       
wasting 125 gold (+expensive upgrades) for 80 gold cat? (not counting wood cuz its practically all over the map...)

id rather send in a 80 gold cav or 60 gold camel to try self destructing the cats...

SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 05:33 AM ET (US)     22 / 73       
Why do you think Roms are better than Minos in iron?...I mean, those 2 civs vs each other... Don't awnser Romz Scyths cuz they get beaten by Helo (I mean on ground-forget navy for a sec). Minos got no priests: Romz for +3 and Marty.

Marty is good Vs HCAT... Vs a Huge Hittos Group, it's even better. HCats can't do shit vs 1 priest with Marty...CAN'T DO SHIT. I know it sounds weird a bit but you can dance with the priest or, if you aren't able to, simply send a few stupid-luring stables units from the sides and bring 2 Priests in...Then, Convert 2 Cats. If there's 10 cats in a line (for example)...from 1 to 10: take the 3rd or 4th and the 7th or 8th and immediately send some (over 5) stables units. 2 Scenarios here: 1-) If you made good luring and conversion, the cats are gonna shoot on themselves: bring your stables units in while you got the break. 2-) If you were a bit slow for the conversion and the Cats are shooting at your "now dead priests" (marty), launch your stables units in. With 2 Priests and 5 HCavs (Cavs can be used but if you aren't good enough, try with HCavs) or Scyths (trampling damage), you can beat easily (and I mean easily) 10 cats. If there's more cats, simply repeat that with disrupting attacks too. Don't start focussing only on that or it's gonna fail.

And anyway: I don't recall seeing a game in the last monhts that I've played where someone massed HCATS (or CATS): only rooks do. Why? RoR is an Archers units game: nothing more.

Why do you think HA is the best unit in the game when use properly??? Also, a civ without CA on a Hill map (no sea so no coast kills...and also less place to hide on a water map) got almost no chances of winning: When 2 good players plays vs (not a rook vs a good player). Cams-Cavs are cool but CA can dance. CA can clean woodies-farmers from distance, over a wall...don't need to walk over buildings to attack the unit behind. I'm a big fan of Stables Units (except Scyths...I mostly use Cams and Cavs) but I found out the CA dancing to be WAY-WAY-WAY better.

Also in brz, CA beats STS (cats in brz are called STS: for those whop are wondering what STS means: Stone ThrowerS) very easily but it's way easier to dance vs a CAT without Ballistic.

Of course, if it's lagging, don't bother trying that in a real game ;-)

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 05:54 AM ET (US)     23 / 73       
Helos do NOT beat scythes in RM. Roman is better because of their scythes.
 
You don't need to make the priests dance, so long as you have afterlife and polytheism. Just let him walk towards the cats till he starts chanting, then press "delete". Unless you totally suck, you'll have the cat about a second before the first stone falls.
 
Good hittite players mass cats in iron, it simply makes sense. They do mix in other units, but catapults are their best unit so they make a lot of them. The other units are only there for support.
 
HA isn't the best unit in the game. Scythes are.
 
CAs suck, compies have them for lunch. The real reason you need chariots on hills is because gold becomes rare later on, and if you don't have chariots then it's down to tool bowmen.
 
You mean you don't play real games? You can't be much of an expert then.
Wicked_Spirit
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 09:35 AM ET (US)     24 / 73       
Wedsaz,

Amazingly, I agree with about everything you wrote. Except for the first sentence. I even agree with the part about Roman being a much better civ because of the scythes. But...

"Helos do NOT beat scythes in RM."

You clearly have NO experience with helos vs. scythes. It becomes a very, very difficult fight for any of the civs with scythes(or eles, or cents, or whatever non-ranged unit you pick) and no cats (phoeni, egypt, mace, probably some others I don't feel like remembering) against a helo civ. Helos are just too damn powerful against non ranged units. Don't give me some bs about the cost effectiveness of scythes. The average pack of 10 helos can probably wipe out over 75 scythes before being worn down and overrun, if they are ever overrun at all. And if the scythes do not come in large enough groups, they will die indefinitely. Of course, all this is going on the fact that the helo civ lives long enough to get em and use em.

Oh yeah. The whole martydom issue is silly. Anyone with skill will let ONE (1) cat get converted, and forever escort and scout in front of his cats with CAs or HAs. And someone pointed out below, the cost of the martyrdom upgrade is a lot of gold for not a lot of return.

[This message has been edited by Wicked_Spirit (edited 04-20-2000).]

SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 07:27 PM ET (US)     25 / 73       
I used to be a Minos player mainly and I was getting a very good % of wins/per game played (compies and in Iron: HCATS and Helo...if the game was getting to Iron). But I no longer need this civ to win. By using any other civ, I can beat Minos using the right strat vs 'em. CA is the best unit on hills (after HA)...You're a rookie if you don't know the use of CA on Hills.

As for the Helo-Scyths: Helo do whatever they wants to any Scyths (even Egypts Scyths). Just find the right formation for your Helo (by placing 'em correctly, you end up with amazing results).

Wedsaz, log on the zone and we can try those strats.

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