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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » wedsaz! enough bs!
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Topic Subject:wedsaz! enough bs!
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Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-17-00 04:52 PM ET (US)         
wedsaz.... please... stop your b***s*** about sub 11 min bronzes !!!! that is ridiculous !! as is most of the other crap you post.... i only seen a time like that once, in AOE, not ror.... that was when 1) the dude was assy 2) he had like 6 or 7 sf right by his TC starting place 3) sf are faster in aoe than ror 4) he made like 11 vills...

in ror there is tons of hills and other obstables... stopping people from reaching certain places.... the maps are now gig.... which means res are more spread out, and there is more wildlife .... so please stop.... no matter how good someone is..... sub 11 min bronzes are not possible!!! especially consistent times like u claim ..... it seems you have been away from ror for a looong time buddy boy.... instead of spewing complete bs , go play the f****** game!!! i am tired of your dumb posts.... ooh sub 11 consistent bronze times.... ooh 30 eles when you iron !!! NONSENSE !!! stop posting this crap!!

and dont respond tryng to prove me wrong, because you cant ... what you say is complete theory .... it doesnt make sense and is false ... so please just listen to some advice and CEASE AND DECIST !!! this forum is filled with enough of your garbage already ! play the game 1st, (vs good players) ... and then post strats based on how you play, not based on what is theoretically possible! because in a real game most of what you say is NOT possible ... understand?

AuthorReplies:
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 01:34 PM ET (US)     26 / 58       
um.... ror isnt about hordes of army units.... it just adds more variety to aoe..... and i know what aoe is all about.... EVERYONE picks assy, and when they hit bronze age, all they do is ca wars....... u should get ror.....
Dave
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 02:01 PM ET (US)     27 / 58       
So it "isn't about hordes of army units" but you need 50+ pop in order to "see big armies" and this is necessary because otherwise it is hard "to overpower someone".

I'm confused.


Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 02:58 PM ET (US)     28 / 58       
well its a strategy game with armies and stuff..... and while its not about making 150 armored eles + 50 villagers ....real wars were never won by armies of 10 archers.....
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 09:28 PM ET (US)     29 / 58       
Blackheart:
I used to see good assy players build hordes 50 CAs in AoE trial, it isn't at all hard. It limits the total amount of units you can have before starting to train new ones. If you "overbuild" and make 100 CAs on top of your 49 villies you can't make more until they get killed, but most players don't keep their military units for long anyway. So the net result is smaller economies, which would reduce the overwhelming power of the boom. However, the boom still works only in a smaller degree. I had much success with minoan vs the assyrian hordes back then. Not everyone picked assy.
 
One thing some players did was delete some fishing boats once the fish became rare, so they could make villies instead.
 
Players in AoE usually built a horde of 30-50 units and then used it. If you truly must have a HUGE army, you can even get logistics to make swordsmen since it actually has meaning when there's a pop limit.
 
Archers are in fact less dominant at lower pop limits, but still quite powerful. RoR was balance for 50 pop, and so probably works better that way.
 
Try it sometime, it may be interesting.
butch26
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 09:41 PM ET (US)     30 / 58       
I have to agree with wedsaz on this one. When you bump up the population limit, it messes up the unit balance. All academy and barracks units become useless, not to mention priests, towers, and wall become usell too. All everyone wants to do is either build seige armies, scyth chariots, elephants or chariot archers. with 200 pop, it becomes more of an arcade game in which the person who can push the buttons the fastest usually wins.

------------------
...and when Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer

Hyper
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 09:57 PM ET (US)     31 / 58       
Wedsaz: Do you know WHY the game was designed to default to 50 pop? Because P90s with 16 megs of ram can't handle 600 units on the screen. Not because of balance. Are you sure we both play the same games?
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 10:57 PM ET (US)     32 / 58       
no butch...... deathmatch is the arcade game you speak of....

and even in high pop games every unit has some good uses....

hoplites - kill cav/camels ... also kill enemy hoplites which greeks and macedonians will make by default

broadies - a follow up to a civ that decides to rush with barracks units.... in bronze and iron , those barracks can be reused without making new buildings..... broadies are fragile tho... even with pop 50 who would make them.... not me

priests tho... they are simply too expensive to be used in any occasion...... i have a feeling that you simply don't have good micromanagement skills and want to play ror the easy way... having to fight off 10 army units per war......

hyper is right.... the only reason aoe defaults at 50 pop is cuz people still have low end systems..... balance has nothing to do with it...... because hey, the enemy can make 30 archers, but hey, so can you...... its called skill.... dont blame poor micromanagement skills on population limits...

butch26
Clubman
posted 04-20-00 11:24 PM ET (US)     33 / 58       
the pop limit was set at 50 to allow slower pc's to run it, but once the magic number of 50 was decided, the game was balanced and tested to work best with that number. if you dont believe me, there is a very good article on this site by one of the designers, sandy i think, which explains all that. (an interview i believe) As for my micromanagment skill, your right, i'm not the best, but with a 50 pop, you dont have to be damn near an expert to have a chance. I unfortunatly have a life, and can't spend hours on end playing a game, just so i can be one of the best out there and lay claim to the title of aoe master of the universe. I guess barracks, and academy units can be used, but when i see them i usually slaghter them with archers, or just convert them. Its fun to build a wall, put some priests behind it, and convert. I have been attacked by foot units, but usually after i have been beat, and i think my opponent does it just for shits and giggles. but to make a long story short, imo, and just mine, the high pops take a lot of game pieces off the board, and therefore take a lot of fun out of the game. Just my humble oppion.

[This message has been edited by butch26 (edited 04-20-2000).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 01:02 AM ET (US)     34 / 58       
butch26, I agree with you completely.
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 01:12 PM ET (US)     35 / 58       
no wedsaz, you are not agreeing with butch, you are disagreeing me for the hell of it...... but you know i'm right.... cuz then where would your 30 eles and scythes be at pop 50? as a matter of fact if we were stuck at pop 50, there would be no new strats developed, as you wouldn't be able to boom or anything like that, every game you would end up using the same strat due to a tiny pop limit and lack of variety
EdgeCrusher6
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 02:01 PM ET (US)     36 / 58       
I know don't post here muh but give me a break. You have been away fro mthe game to long to know anything. If you wanna make outragious remakrs on how great you are get a computer and play. I mean i know i have taken time off from a game when people woudln;t play with me cuz they though i was rookies cuz no one knew me. What i am saying man is that before you do anything like post more statrs.. get the game back and play a few online wiht people from the board. Tyr thsoe starts and you will get your ass handed to you.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 03:49 PM ET (US)     37 / 58       
Blackheart:
I agree with butch26. Yes, I couldn't boom to iron - but booming to bronze is still very viable.
 
Booming wouldn't be the only viable strat, because there would be a limit on the maximum economy you can build to. Therefore, bronze or tool rushing would be viable as well. I can tell you from my experiences that booming is still viable in 50 pop against good players. However, you have to be careful to still bronze fast enough or you're dead. It's not an easy, solve-it-all strat in 50 pop.
 
However, since there's an iron age unlike AoE trial, 75 pop may be more appropriate. What do you think of 75 pop? 70 villies, 50 military units if you "overbuild"...
Hyper
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 05:25 PM ET (US)     38 / 58       
You find tool rushing isn't viable on high pop limits? Really? Popov can you please scout rush him? Edge can you slinger rush him for me? I'll do some tool archers, and someone else can do axers. Why would I say this? Because Tool Rushing is already a big way to win, lower pop limit will just mean more people use it.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 06:34 PM ET (US)     39 / 58       
On the one hand I've got BlitzkreigComin telling me there's no way a shang tool rush can stop a yam boomer, and here I have you telling me tool rushing is very viable and a big way to win. So, which is it?
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 07:21 PM ET (US)     40 / 58       
Hyper :=)))

Ahhhhh, those scouts.

I'd love to play Vs Wedsaz: he'd stop saying 10 tims in a row, I've brzed under 30 secs. Who cares! More important time is the tool time, not the brz: I mean, when it's a game between good players...not bunch of rooks. I'd love to see ya in brz at min 12 when u have no more villies to do shit: you invested 800 food to brz..I invested it in tool army. Did you knew that a tool army (usually a big tool army if the guy stays in tool and doesn't jump to brz...) beats an early brz army...ANYTIME OF THE DAY, 7 DAYS A WEEK; twice on sunday.

Also, bad management at 200 pop? Then it's only ya:sorry. Don't blame the pop cap. But you can stay at 50 of pop if you can't manage 200 tho ;-) BTW, I get pissed really often at the stupud 200 pop: NOT ENOUGH!!! How many times I end up with 140-150 villies and not enough room to make any army...only a few. I end up with 15k wood, 10k food and over 8-10k gold...this blows...I know a few others here knows what I mean.

BTW, a tool rush made correctly (good units choice and good timing...timing is damn important) beats anything: sorry.

I uses to be a Minos boomer (quite boring btw): I was donig 55-60 villies with a good brz time...I've stopped cuz my win-loses % wasn't good enough :-)

I prefer using other civs and doing a strat according to the map I got. A SF start, A berries start, A SF-Forest start...all differents spots that has their own strats (to use 'em to your advantage).

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 07:29 PM ET (US)     41 / 58       
SuN_Cam_Popov:
How many axemen does it take to kill 10 cavs?
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 07:58 PM ET (US)     42 / 58       
It's official: Wedsaz is a rook...sorry.

I quote what you just said:"How many axemen does it take to kill 10 cavs? "

LOL! You're a funny man, who's the rook that gonna do axers vs Cavs? Who's the guy that gonna tool rush with Axers only??? And also, where the hell you're gonna mine this gold?

Cavs got a bonus vs Infantry unit form the barrack (except slingers). To kill Cavs, you use tool archers: don't reply to tell me 1 Cav beats 1 Tool Archer: I know that. But 10 tool archers (a minimum usually) vs your only Cav comnig for 1 stable...Tell me how ya can win this one. Cavs makes damage with hand-to-hand and archers can research armor. Archers makes damage from Piercing Armor...Cavs can't research Piercing Armor before Iron :=)

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 08:28 PM ET (US)     43 / 58       
Even tool bowmen don't fare too well vs cavs.
 
What kind of player is going to send in a lone cav against a tool army? A rookie, that's what kind.
 
Oh, you want to talk upgrades? Tool archers get leather armor, +2 armor vs melee. Cavs get toolworking, +2 melee damage. See? It's irrelevant.
 
Cavs don't get extra shielding until iron, but tool archers don't get extra damage until iron either. Equal again.
 
I get the gold from the gold mine inside my wall. I always make sure to include at least one.
SuN_Cam_Popov
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 08:42 PM ET (US)     44 / 58       
Hmmm:quote from Wedsaz: "I get the gold from the gold mine inside my wall. I always make sure to include at least one. "

So you play on pre-made map? ;-)

Cuz vs a good player, no way you'll be able to mine gold for a long time to mass produce cavs with a 11:00 brz vs a big tool rush, sorry.

Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 09:07 PM ET (US)     45 / 58       
lol now cam has taken my place as the one to ***** at wedsaz for posting garbage..... thx man..... my fingers are worn out from typing ... wedsaz still hasnt gotten the point tho.... i hope he does .....
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 10:13 PM ET (US)     46 / 58       
Pre-made maps? No.
 
You don't need to mass produce them, because they slaughter tool units. Even tool bowmen die quickly to cavs.
 
I'm not saying it would be a good idea vs fast bronze civs such as shang and minoan, but it would definitely work vs over-heavy tool rushes and late bronzers.
 
I think you should read that article about strat evolution over at GX, you may learn a few things.
butch26
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 10:30 PM ET (US)     47 / 58       
Hey, I'm not saying 50 is the best population limit, just that the game is designed arround that number. I was wrong about which article i was reffering to. It's an article by bruce shelly called "the 50 pop limit by bruce shelly." It pretty much explains why there is a limit. The only thing i was trying to say about the higher pop limits is that they make half the units useless. Towers are a waste of stone when someone can send 150 units against them. Priests are useless for the same reason, along with barracks and academy units. They simply dont stand a chance against 150 horse archers or chariot archers. Not much does. I wouldn't say my micromanagment skills suck, i win a fair ammount of games. Something like 70% against rooks, and 40-50% against average players. But thats probably the problem for you "experts" You guy represent maybe 2-3% of the players out there. the ones like me, at my skill level represent probably 70-80% of the players out there, and we are the ones it was designed for. Thats not to take away from you guys, but es designed the game for the masses, not the elite. To tell you the truth, i'm glad i'm not an expert. I like being able to play any civ and still have a good game in which i'm not sure exactly what i will do untill i'm half way through with it. I have no idea how long it takes egyt to reach bronze at 5:22 pm on the third sunday of june with 6.77 berry bushes, 4 gazzel, 1 elephant and a dinosaur on a subteranian large island map on the dark side of the moon with 3/4 reval no cheats. I also have no idea weather 1.6597 million archers can beat .9872 million stone throwers with a plastic shield upgrade. And to tell you the truth, i like it that way. Its the uncertainty that i enjoy, not knowing exactly what units to make and how to use them 10 min. before the game even starts. I congrartulate you experts for all your accomplishments and what you have achieved. I however am glad that for me the game still involes a lot of strategy and is not just about who can boom the fastest, and build 150 units first.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 11:19 PM ET (US)     48 / 58       
butch26:
Quite right, I don't think anyone who loves AoE like I do would mind seeing some of those wonderful units again.
 
Even in 50 pop, hoplites and swordsmen weren't used much in bronze in AoE. However, RoR has some changes such as logistics which may make them more viable. I'd be curious to see the result.
 
Yes, I find it quite boring that fights depends only on when and how many units, rather than which units are involved.
 
Think about it people: archers defeat melee units better after the reach a certain number. If the pop limit is lower, don't you think units such as cavalry might not have a better chance at killing compies, CAs and STs?
 
Oh, and plastic shield for stone throwers isn't worth researching. You're better off getting radios for your chariots instead.
Blackheart
Clubman
posted 04-21-00 11:27 PM ET (US)     49 / 58       
let me just make this short....

high pop : archers kill mounted units

low pop : mounted units will kill archers...

so basically, whats the point, with low pop u would be making archers obsolete....... just like in high pop, mounted units are obsolete vs large groups of archers

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 04-22-00 00:34 AM ET (US)     50 / 58       
Blackheart:
Except there's a 3rd group of units: infantry.
 
Mounted units kill archers. Infantry kills mounted units. Archers kill infantry.
 
Therefore, if mounted units kill archers things start falling into place. RoR with a high pop is like rock-paper-scissors without the scissors, which makes the rock obsolete as well.
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