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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Palmyran Power!
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Topic Subject:Palmyran Power!
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Elijeh
Clubman
posted 05-08-99 05:25 PM ET (US)         
I know, Palmyran and power just dosn't seem to mesh, however! Palmyran is a pretty decent civ..in 1vs1's their not good, in 2vs2's their semi good, and in 3vs3, and 4vs4 their AWASOME! Remember one thing: your villagers are almost 44% better on each food source...Let me pull out the Mr. FiXiTs Civ sheets'ere
Table: 1
___/|Gathering Rates*|\___

Ressource | Palmyran | Normal | Bonus**

Wood .76.56.76
Stone .65.45.65
Gold .65.45.65
Forage .65.45Nil
Hunt .65.45.75
Fish .80.60Nil
Farm .45.40Nil

*All rates are givin as the amount of food gathered per second.
**Special Civ: Phoenician for wood, Bablyonian for Stone, Egyptian for gold and Persian for Hunting. All "special" civs recieve a +3 carrying ca[aciety, which Palmyra lacks.

As Above table shows, Palmyran has a very capable economy. Now, what do these figgures amount to?

Table: 2
Productivity
Wood: 26% increased productivity
Stone: 45% increased productivity
Gold: 45% increased productivity
Forage: 45% increased productivity Hunting: 45% increased productivity
Fishing: 33% increased productivity
Farming: 12% increased productivity
Now, the above table shows the approximate increase of each resources productivity as Palmyran. As you can see Palmyrans "natural" resources all benefit from a large productiveity increase, in fact, said increases are incredible high when checked against the "sound" documentation of Microsofts manauls. Microsoft has an annoying habbit of converting decimal point values to Percentage values. witness the Assyrian fire-rate. Said fire rate should be .9 for Mounted archers, and .75 or .8 for foot archers. However, all Assyrian archers share a 1.1 fire-rate.

Notice palmyrans production value of Foraging(berry-picking), at a whopping .65 food its faster than shore fishing for all other civilazations. Now, as Palmyran Villagers cost 75 food each, you require a 50 advantage in production to break even. Also, the expensive villagers means that Palmyran can afford only 2 vilagers in compasion to every other civilazations 4(shang is an exception with 5) fro mstarting resources on default resource games. However, you effectively have 1˝ villagers for cost, and productivity increase in refrence to food sources(Fishign and farming excepted), therefore your starting 3 villagers are equivelent to 4 villagers in productivity. for palmyran to gain an edge on the opponent it is Imperitive to find a Food source Quickly, in fact ASAP! avoidin hunting gazelles who do not have a forest nearby unless you have a large number of straggler trees(those single 75 wood trees), or a forest close to your TC(towncenter). Why? because as Palmyran you won't to perserve resources as often as possible.

Therefore, berries are often the most relible food source, as they can't move, and they do not decay. In fact, having more than 1 villager to a single berry bush is counter-productive, and should be avoided at all-costs, unless it will sacrifice villager flow. However, having more than 1 villager per gazelle is very productive, as it minimizes decay. For elephants your should maintain a ratio of 8 villagers to one elephant being harvested. Shore fish should be avoided as unless encountered in packs of 4 or more their far more diffucult to maintain a steady villager flow, as villagers often stumble and bump into each other, reducing effiecancy. Therefore berrys are the most efficent starting food source.

Do not explore for a "sweetspot" but rapidly place a granery near your berries:: although speed matters, do not place the gtranery in-effiecntly. Therefore, should you have a line of berries, place the granery 1 tile from the line, so as to maximize effiecancy. In sitations Where berries are not conviently place, try to place the Granery wher ethe most berries can be gathered with a single villager to a bush. although it will apear that your 5 villagers are doing well on the berries, place our 6th and possibly 7th villager on berries. the 7th villager should only be Placed on berries in a sitation where it is required, do to lag between villager production.

The advice of Celestial dawn: "Your Town center should never be idle" does not apply to the Palmyrans. Do not succemb to the notion of building 20 or more villagers, Unless you plan on doing a massive boom/power-up and have the location to do such a strategy. Palmyran is more than eqaul to most civilazations with 17 villagers, which is about 24 villagers in other civilazations. Also, beware of performing large dock-build ups, as Palmyras food gathers often strip food sites bare in a short time, requiring multiple food buildings. A few fishing boats is suitable, as well as 1 or 2 trade boats if you know where an allies dock is.

Scotuing is always paramount, however Palmyra can not afford the early scouting of other Civilazations, as that is taking almost 2 villagers from production. However, scouting is paramount for discovering secondary food sources. Palmyran appears to be slow, but givin a solid spot(a few gazalle herds, 1 or 2 straggler trees and decent berries) Palmyra can make it to the bronze age before other civilazations with the exception of shang. Phoenician loses what few advances it holds over Palmyran besides the ability to Tool faster.

The Tool age is not a happy time for Palmyra. They have all units in the Tool age , but then again, only two civilazations lack units in the tool age. Palmyra is not an exceptional fast civilazation to the tool-age, and as such it shouldn't rarely tool rush, although a rare "resource eqaulization", the act of sending a few Slingers or bowmen towards the opponent as your go to the Bronze age in order to stunt their economy and gain reconionce, is still a viable tactic. Walls can be used, in fact i believe walls should always be used for protection of valuble areas(gold, wood and a single food source, can be a protected granery with farms) from raids. A Stable should be constructed at your Town while you move villagers from a surplussed resource to Gold. Go towards the Bronze age with a market as your 2nd technology building, and train a scout. Discover nearby land, and any enemy infiltrations, and respond as appopriate.

As your Bronzing your should have built a 2nd or 3rd stable, and stockpiled enough gold to aford 2-3 camels when your arrive at Bronze. Research Leather Armor For Cavalry and Toolworking, in that order, then economic upgrades as desired, leaving around 400 food in the bank for bronze, and then depending on your choice in bronze, Metelworking or move towards Composite bowmen. You should be 2-3 camels and send them out to harras and destroy what they can, targeting villagers. Use those fast camels(2.5 tiles every second movement) to scout out your opponent.

Now, what you do from here is up to you....

AuthorReplies:
Grand Pooba
Inactive
posted 05-11-99 09:32 AM ET (US)     26 / 50       
Alright! Solid strategy talk! Woo! Hoo! :-)

Elijeh - I certainly do not mean to diminish the quality of your post in general. You are quite correct in stating that my Palmyran Strategies Guide offers a "rigid" strategy for success with the civ. It is so because it is the best use of Palmy's unique civ attributes. Take note of my breakdown of Palmy's strengths and weaknesses. Note that I list them in order of significance.













Strengths, in order of significance of Palmyra:
  1. Free Tribute

  2. Super-Charged Villy Gathering Rate

  3. Fast Camels

  4. Villager Armor

  5. Doubled Trade (well, almost)


 

Weaknesses, in order of significance:
  1. Lack of Engineering upgrade

  2. 75 Food Villies

  3. Lack of Craftsmanship upgrade

  4. Lack of Strong and Devout Priests


Bronze Age Breakdown:

  1. Every military unit is available (a la Shang)

  2. Every signifcant battle-related unit upgrade is available excluding priest upgrades and logistics (who cares about logistics anyway?)


Best Iron Age Units, in Order of Strength:

  1. Scythe Chariot

  2. HA and HHA (though they miss the range upgrade)

  3. Balista Tower

  4. Phalanx

  5. Jihad Villagers (well, at 75 food, this can’t be a last ditch effort)



 

Other Units and their weaknesses:


  1. Elephants and Armored Elephants – Priests aren’t strong enough to encourage them away from the dark side.

  2. Ballistas – don’t really pack a punch until they are transformed to Helepolis, and they’re not available.

  3. Cats and Heavy Cats – No Engineering upgrade and weak Ballista to back them up. I find I’m always losing Cat wars.

  4. Phalanx – You could go this route, but if you were going to go this route you’d want Centurions.

  5. Priests – important upgrades are not available.


Do you dispute any of this theory?

Palmyra not viable on its own until late bronze. My strategy puts forth the best way to minimize the foes dominant timeframe. Additionally, Palmyra is clearly a feeder civ - designed to shoot an ally to dominance with free tribute. Furthermore, Palmy gets no significant boost in power in the Iron Age. Look closely at the strengths and weaknesses of the Iron-Age units detailed in the table above. Scythe Chariots are it. That's it. Nothing else will stand toe-to-toe with other civilizations. The net result is this: If you take Palmy straight up (i.e. don't look outside the box) they seem strongest late bronze. But if you sling-shot an ally, Palmy's dominant timeframe stretches back into the early Tool-Age.

Elijeh, in response to your concerns about the allocation of 2 wood cutters in stone: To maximize the effect of a sling shot, Palmy must be the first civilization to reach the Tool-Age. You do that by effectively managing your wood. One pit, one granary and 4 houses gets you to tool with minimum wood. Once you commit to a second granary in stone, you have failed. You need 1425 food to reach tool with 18 Palmy villagers - easily done with 6 each of berries and elk, or berries and 3 SF. As for your elk-no-wood concerns: only God can help you if you are confronted with that situation often. :-) The fastest route to tool is with 2 woodies.

I'll close by performing a cut-'n-paste of my page on Palmyra's bronze age armies here:


Once bronze heave a sigh of relief. This is your power age. Every bronze unit is available, as well as their armor and attack upgrades. Camels are your most powerful tool. The fact that they chew cavalry and CA (the enemy's most likely choice of quick counter-attack) and have super-fast speed to get to the battle quickly, makes them perfect for the support role you will be playing. The first order of business must be to drop a Government Center and research writing. You will not be "leading the charge" so to speak - you're allies have already brought the battle to the enemy. Instead you will be providing support, through defensive back-filling, aggressive towering, and assisting in small skirmishes. For this, you must have a visual cue as to where to direct your forces - which means you need writing ASAP. Also, work to complete all of the economic upgrades. Prioritize woodworking and artisanship 1st, followed by gold mining, domestication and stone mining. I've found that I'm farming before I have a need for pumped up stone miners, and therefore prioritize domestication ahead of the other upgrade.

Bronze Age is the power age for Palmyra. You must continue to pump villagers, strengthening the economy, and aggressively tributing your allies to Iron. Most likely, your allies have units available in Iron that would be more effective than those in your own Iron Age arsenal. At 25 minutes, if the game is not already over, your enemies are probably in a sad state of affairs. At least two of them have fallen victim to heavy cavalry/CA attack when in late tool or early bronze. The economic victory is likely already won, as the early massacre of their villagers becomes more damaging with time. They may have the ability to field a moderate bronze-age army, but will not have the ability to sustain war. Tributing your allies to Iron will drive the nail into the coffin.

Your Bronze Age army should consist mostly of camels. They are fast enough to assist in operations in distant parts of the map as needed, are effective against Cavalry, CA and Chariots and, while not as effective as cavalry as villager killing, can chase down wheeled Assy's and Yammies. Composite bowmen are available, however I favor CA over them. The bowmen's slow speed makes it hard to use them in concert with camels. In theory, you could use Compies effectively in defense, however towers and a small contingent of camels and slingers are just as effective and less of a strain on the pop limit against most attacks, and flat-out better against attacks including ST's. CA make a better addition to the already speedy army that you'll be putting on the battle field. A couple of ST's mixed into the army help to put on the hurt too.

Hoplites and rax are also available, though they don't fit in nicely with the ST's you and your allies will be using. You can use priests, too, though I haven't had much use for them. Your foes should rarely get to iron (and get elephants) and the priests lack important speed and hit-point upgrades. But, every armor and attack upgrade is available. Choose your weapons, and upgrade them immediately. Obviously, +4, +4 camels are a must.


[This message has been edited by Grand Pooba (edited 05-11-99).]

[This message has been edited by Grand Pooba (edited 05-11-99).]

[This message has been edited by Grand Pooba (edited 05-11-99).]

[This message has been edited by Grand Pooba (edited 05-11-99).]

[This message has been edited by Grand Pooba (edited 05-11-99).]

[This message has been edited by Grand Pooba (edited 05-11-99).]

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 05-11-99 09:38 AM ET (US)     27 / 50       
Paralyticus, even if you don't have to walk, you can only collect berries at 0.65/sec. That means that you need 5.77 villagers to keep your food supply even, non-shang need 5.56, i.e., you need 6 just like everyone else, you just need to get the 6th one on a little sooner. Guess what? Not gonna happen. And your 75 food villager explores no better than a 50 food villager. You get the same out, it just cost you a lot more going in. Not a great ROI.

Every age eats away at the relative bonus, until you hit Iron, and find that you are essentially just a high priced Babylonian worker with a weak back, i.e., they can't carry as much. With the exception of farming, all other rates are now identical, and farming is only 12.5% better, but only one farm upgrade screws them there, too.

So if the game goes into Iron, they are just a kid brother civ. Weaken the Hittites and you have Babylonians. Weaken the Babylonians and you have Palmyrans.

I guess what I'm saying is that its a darned good thing they have a robust military, because without that, they would have replaced Greek as most dreaded long ago.

Keep your stick on the ice.

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 05-12-99 12:56 PM ET (US)     28 / 50       
Correct me if I'm wrong, here. I should only consider a slingshot when I draw Palmy if I have the honor of playing with Poobah or Videre? Everyone else would prefer to go it alone?

Keep your stick on the ice.

Paralyticus
Clubman
posted 05-12-99 01:05 PM ET (US)     29 / 50       
I have checked it in practice and i don't give a damn about "mathematics":

I can always have Villagers flowing with FIVE Palmyran Villies on Berries, with a moderately good placement (row or "L").

At least twice (with a great "row" berry placement) I managed to do it with FOUR Villagers (well, a bit jerky on the production side, but no important delays, and it was 2.0 speed, which "masks" the delays - you'd "feel" them more at 1.0, I admit).

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 05-12-99 01:34 PM ET (US)     30 / 50       
Allright. Let me 'splain this.

I went into SB and generated random maps until I found one I liked: berries in an L with a spot for a granary. I placed the granary, put in 2 extra villagers and set the civ to Palmy. Went to Test Scenario.

It took approx. 35 sec for everyone to get on the right side of the berries, so I arbitrarily waited for the timer to read 0:50. I took pics every 20 secs, the same timing as villagers would be produced, but settled on just the one at the end of 3 minutes to show. I have a bunch of others in case anyone wants to see, but they pretty much paint the same picture.

Taking the case of 4 foragers, we have collection rates of (720-260)/3 min or 51 food every 20 sec. That is not enough for steady Palmy. (This figure is 2/3 what is required, so intuitively we should be able to conclude that you simply need 3/2 the number of foragers, or 6.)

Taking the case of 5 foragers, we have (840-270)/3 min or 63 food every 20 sec, still not enough for Palmy.

I didn't run the simulation for 6 villagers, as I can see where it is going, and it seems once again, Mr. Fixit's charts ring true.

Keep your stick on the ice.

[This message has been edited by Thorfinn (edited 05-12-99).]

mulan98
Clubman
posted 05-12-99 09:18 PM ET (US)     31 / 50       
Palmyran is actually cool. Well, I was playing a 2v2 game with Videre last night and it rocks. Videre was a good Roman tool rusher and I on the other hand is a good Palmyran feeder. We had a great game. Our enemy was Shang and Hititte. Boy did we have fun. I must say that 4 peons on the berries is enough to have a consistent pumping of peons from the TC. I tributed to Videre and did not make any military units. All I did was fish, farm, mine stone, gold and tribute!!!!! We defeated the enemy just like that!!

Loved them Palmyran!

Videre
Inactive
posted 05-13-99 00:47 AM ET (US)     32 / 50       
That was a wild game (see Mulan98's post below) It was the first time I actually saw TRUE teamwork carry the day. I mostly have to play random 3 vs 3's so there isn't much teamwork going on. The way Mulan98 played Palmyran was nothing short of awesome. It really opened my eyes to the slingshot strategy. Ive read a couple times in these posts that the Palmys aren't that great at 2 vs 2, but I think there is alot more potential there than most people think.

It really helped that Mulan98 was isolated from the enemies a bit, but they never got a chance to scout him out because of the tool warfare. The most amazing thing was Mulan never scored a kill, but essentially won the game for us....it is perhaps an extreme example of what the Palmyrans can do in competant hands. Of course, another pre-requisite is good communication. If the Palmys are gonna tribute, communication is KEY!!

Videre

RomanWahoo
Inactive
posted 05-13-99 00:48 AM ET (US)     33 / 50       
okay, pooba is absolutely correct in many areas of his guide. it was the first one i read (the only one to my knowledge), and i agree with most of it. however, after going palmy-happy one week and picking them in almost every single game i played, i've developed a distaste for the tribbing aspect. it goes differently for different maps. on watery maps, you're going to be busting out one heck of a bronze age with your supercharged peons. therefore, on watery maps, i suggest you do a bronze jump. unlike shang, or any of the other civs, you're going to be slower getting to that point where you have the res to tool rush AND to bronze at the same time. therefore, having a choice between tool rushing and bronzing, i'd go bronzing everytime.

start-agree with pooba. 1 vil on house (altho i always forget this too), other two exploring. u NEED your food source. yes, 5 palmy vils can usually support your 75f peons. however, i like to be safe and grab that food by sending in my 6th peon on food as well after he houses. 7th goes exploring, 8th on wood blah blah blah. another thing is that with other civs, while booming on the water, u probably need only 2-3 food sources...with palmy you MUST have a 3rd food source, 4th recommended. without this, haha good luck making the rest of your peons...6 berries hold you out until your 17th vil or so only.

after initial peon flow...this part gets tricky and prolly map dependent...i think it was solo that played an awesome palmy vs me one time. very tough to defeat. however, i don't agree with stopping at 16 vils. it's too soon, and you're not going to have enough food to tool anyways. the key to any map is to minimize the time between your last peon made and the second you hit the tool upgrade. with palmy that gets harder, as the food gets used up quickly. i like to go with 22-24 vils (yes this asks for a late tool, but the 22nd vil should be made at about the 8th minute, so you still should be good to go), and as many boats as my wood income can handle, normally about 20. with palmy, i usually tool at about 12 due to my suckiness and inability to manage my food during the break between my 22nd vil and tool upgrade, but when i handle it correctly, it's about 11. first tech you need is ... hard to guess ... WALL! if you don't wall, and those upgraded bowers or scouts start coming in at 12, goodbye. it doesn't much to kill a palmy, because during the beginning, their econ is so darn fragile. 3 bowmen in your woodies and u'll be hurting for a while. walling in by 11:30 usually stops the normal tool rush...of course you're still scouting the area around you so there shouldn't be any forward buildings anyways, or if there is, be sure you spread out or wall it out.

this is where you can go one of two ways. you can A)start your slinging right now, boost your allies and give them a jump start, or B)do it yourself. you've got wood coming in quickly, tell your allies that you'll try to take the seas. food, with 20 fb's, should be coming in fairly quickly. make your boats, and you can either defend and wait for galleys (because you've already hit the bronze button) or do the sea version of resource equalisation. that is, attack with say 4 scout ships and hit their fishing economy.

now i'll go into depth about each option. first option A, which is the one pooba seems to be favoring by putting the tribbing aspect as the greatest strength. if you're playing for a sole tribbing game, you've got a load of food now. make more vils. lets say you've got 700f. que up 4 vils, get the first woodcutting upgrade, send the rest to someone who needs it. 3rd dock, 4th dock get more fish, make more vils, continue to send them food. they'll likely tell you when they've started bronzing...at this point, you can stop sending them food until they need it again. new vils go on wood/gold, majority wood. que up some scoutships and hit their docks. this will weaken them for the upcoming galley attack by your allies. trib the rest of your wood to your ally who bronzes and will take the sea. note that this will get really boring...after a while, your econ should be absolutely HUGE with peons stripping the map of stuff. all in tool age. for this pure slinging strat, don't bronze...use that 800f to make more peons. by this time, your allies will basically be playing a dm with you stuffing resources in their mouths. your allies really need to be able to communicate though, as you have no writing. or you can make a scout out of your stable and send him exploring. i recommend keeping a group of say 10 peons running around grabbing all the gold/stone that your partners take over. just grab them, trib to your allies when they need it. do NOT hog the gold. you have no need for it, give it up. this can get really boring as all you get to do is watch your gold collected surpass 10000.

then there is the straddle option...basically what pooba recommends. do your normal palmy start, whatever it is, whether it is 16 peons or 22 peons, and then go bronze while feeding wood/gold to your allies. then in bronze, it is basically what i do from the start.

option B-shoot for bronze and partake in the action. pooba's guide does this fairly well, but i just don't bother with giving wood to my allies unless they ask for it. thus i have a ton of wood, especially if i've got the first woodcutting upgrade (there's no reason why i shouldn't unless i went s/f first). i try for the seas first. as i state before, i got with camels on land, upgraded ones. now unless i see cavs/chariots running around, i will not get the 2nd cav armor. +4/+2 camels do just as fine for the most part, as most ppl go with comps/CA types. my first couple of 'mels are purely defensive...i may send in a couple of those warp speed 'mels in to disrupt my opps's woodcutting, but nothing else for the time being. pooba likes CA's, i like comps, and here is why.

with so many boats on the waters, those fishes are going to run out pretty darn fast. you need a complimentary food source. double eles or berries are cool, but you'll have to be running around looking for them...running around OUTSIDE your walls. now your little peons cost 50% more than everyone else's...MUCH more valuable. you don't want them to be dead. therefore, what i do is farm. your farming is at .60f/s i believe, as fast as other civ's SHOREFISHING. farming with palmy therefore is more than viable. think of it this way...your food from farms will be going towards producing an army...an army that cost the same as the enemy's. who'll be producing a bigger army, one that rakes in .45 f/s hunting and foraging while running around, or one that doesn't have to run around all the time while producing .6f/s. then all the food coming in from your fishboats goes towards techs and more peons. so how do you get all those farms that will be built? if you go with CA's you're using up 70 wood every time you push the R hotkey to make the CA. 5 more wood and you've got 250f which = to 3 more peons. now you may be saying, why can't i just put more peons on wood? bah, so where are you going to get those peons from to support your CAs and your farms at the same time? take them off gold? that's a no-no. you gotta strip the map ASAP of gold. so what if your allies have coinage and can get 500g instead of 400g out of each block? you've already stripped the map...they can't take advantage of that ... advantage i guess heh. the point is, you strip the gold now, divide the gold later, and if necessary, you've got the trade boat bonus too. you OWN the gold in the game. now you've got all those peons on gold, half the peons on wood that you would have needed if you were going CA's. not to mention comps tear up anything they see in bronze age short of stonethrowers en masse, but dun dun dun dun, you've got those speedy +4/+2 'mels to take out the stoners. now it IS true that the comps are a bit slow, but they are slow and methodical. they fight much better than CA's because the space they take up is so much smaller and therefore they can jockey for position a lot better. CA's on the other hand have to run forever to find the end of the line. if you must use CA's, use them as raiding units, not as support for mels. use mels as support for comps. the speed of mels is almost useless vs archers en masse. let your mels dance and absorb the hits while your comps wipe out their army.

that is how i play bronze w/ palmy on water maps. as far as ironing goes, i wouldn't bother with it unless everyone else is already in iron. the reason is that palmy's iron is so mediocre. they get catapults, no engineering, no helepolis, no 3rd woodcutting. they are missing a couple other techs too that i've forgotten about, but pooba is right that no engineering really hurts. which brings me to another slight disagreement...i woulda say that the extra cost for food is more hurting than no engineering. compare palmy with engineering (and nothing else added) with vils costing 75f to palmy w/o engineering costing say 50 or 60 food. huge difference, they're not as slow, and it's easier to peon boom, and to recover if you're hit. you've still got the mels, you've got horse archers, you're in good shape for a while. in iron, i just settle down and play my econ game. if the pop is 150, i'll try to have 120 vils, maybe 10 mels and 20 horse archers for moderate defense. even just micromanaging economy alone can be a pain as farms run out all the time, new docks need to be constructed, you gotta follow your ally's attack and grab the gold before they drive you back, you gotta farm, trade for gold get a new forest (ever seen two palmy's chop a forest? a 20x20forest will be down in a matter of minutes). this is where feeding really kicks in, IMO. you can tell your allies that they can maintain a smaller econ and a larger army, as you'll be feeding them with your supercharged peons.

now then, moving on to hills/highland. blech. no palmy. palmy absolutely hurts on these maps because there is no chance for you to catch up in vil count. you will always be behind the other guys. food is scarce as it is, and with your peons costing so much, you really do need to change your strategy here. this is where slingshotting is actually a viable strategy. u'll be slow to tool, u'll be slow to bronze, forget it, give your resources to someone else who can make use of it. now i'm not saying that if you've got 800f as soon as you finish your 2nd tool building not to tool...if you've got that much, by all means, go for it, you're going to kick my butt. you've got a great start spot, u really ought to be killing something. tool rushing in this case also might be viable. you'll be raking in stuff fast anyways, just be sure again that you wall out and start your farms quickly. it's all up to you how to play this. overall, i'd say no palmy if u can help it unless it's on med or high res. lack of food and palmy's overcost = slow to everything except for death.

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 05-13-99 09:28 AM ET (US)     34 / 50       
Would anyone who can keep Palmy villagers flowing constantly with only 4 foragers clue me in as to how it's done? Or even 5? I have tried prolly 100 times to match this feat, and I CANNOT DO IT!

As for tribbing, I think it really depends on your partners. Think about it. If instead of getting those +4/+4 camels, I give those resources to my ally, he gets 575F/170G to use on offense. That's like having 14 extra compies! However, if your partner uses the resources to get unnecessary techs, or worse yet, just sit in his bank, you can definitely make better use of them.

Keep your stick on the ice.

Grand Pooba
Inactive
posted 05-13-99 09:33 AM ET (US)     35 / 50       
Wahoo: Clearly you are an intelligent player. :-)

romanwahoo wrote:
> okay, pooba is absolutely correct in many areas of
> his guide. it was the first one i read (the only one
> to my knowledge), and i agree with most of it.

------------------------------------------

I couldn't possibly take the time to write a 900-word response so I'll touch on two highlights.

1) I favor CA over compies because I assign the most military value to Palmy's camels. Why the hell do I do that? Ok: I envision Palmy in a "support" role, feeding his allies to battle while aiding in small skirmishes and performing defensive backfilling. Compies are not the best option for this role.

I take into consideration that the enemy has endured a substantial attack from the beneficiary of your tribute. The net result of that attack should put your enemy on the defensive and have him desperate for a quick counter attack (if there is any counter attack at all). Let me define the enemy's best option for a quick counter attack: (1) a Camel or two, (2) a Cav or two, (3) a few CA, (4) a few Tool-Age military, and lastly (5) massed Compies. Now, assuming you are playing to win (i.e. using my strat) you want your allies free to attack, leaving mobile defenses to you. They should still wall in woodies and such, but insofar as queuing forces at home for defense you must pick up the slack. Camels, Cav and CA are villy killers. They will run right around your compies. If there is an ST mixed in you're toast. And God forbid their attack strike in an area a screen or two away from your massed compies.

Camels and CA are your best option for handling these skirmishes.

Insofar as "Stationary" defenses, compies are "so-so" in support of walls, and just plain bad in support of towers. Why? Two letters: S-T. In this situation I use Camels (to kill the ST and cav) and slingers (to kill the CA).

Ouch. The word count is getting high and I haven't done any work yet this morning. :-)

Ok. 2nd point. You contested my belief that the lack of Engineering is a greater weakness than the higher cost of villagers. My reasoning here is that the lack of Engineering (especially coupled with the lack of Craftmanship) destroys Palmy's Iron Age. Palmy is not a siege civ - they are just plain outranged. As you know, the Iron Age is owned by siege, but for what it is worth, Palmy is also a weak priest civ (you every try watching your miserably pokie priests try to keep up, only to be killed by an errant clubber?). Concurrently, they are a weak AE civ. Scythes are it. Of course, you've stated that you agree with all that.

So, what does that leave Palmy to do in the end? They have all of this purchasing power and nothing on the shelves that is worth buying but Scythes. That is frustrating. That, coupled with the fact that the sling shot negates the high villager cost and thus reduces Palmy's weakest period to the first 7 minutes of the game is why I rank Engineering at the top of my wish list for Palmy.

-Grand Pooba

[This message has been edited by Grand Pooba (edited 05-13-99).]

RomanWahoo
Inactive
posted 05-13-99 10:39 AM ET (US)     36 / 50       
LOL 14 extra compies? rofl. 170g/20g=8.5 compies, not 14 and, rather than getting the 2nd armor upgrade, get another mel, or save it for the comp upgrade. 4 vils on food is outrageous...whoever said that if it was said is off their rocker. 5 is in ideal conditions. 6 is normal for me.

Grand Pooba wrote:
> Wahoo: Clearly you are an intelligent player. :-)
rofl, intelligent maybe, (contestable), good, no.


> 1) I favor CA over compies because I assign the most military value to Palmy's camels. Why the hell do I do that? Ok: I envision Palmy in a "support" role, feeding his allies to battle while aiding in small skirmishes and performing defensive backfilling. Compies are not the best option for this role. "

okay this is a matter of playing style. the slingshot strat never really appealed to me because i don't like having one attacker with double the force. i don't like being teammate dependent, i like to be able to stand on my own two feet. yes, palmy IS a support role civ. i totally agree with you there. however, i'd rather play them in that role in a different time frame. true, most civs will have coinage by the time you've gotten to iron, but there will be no gold left since you've stripped it off the map. your villies are working harder to cut wood, make more farms, use the food to trade, and feed the wood and food to your hittite partner. this is where i start playing simcity and micromanaging an economy. in bronze age however, i prefer to make use of that multivaried military and do something to the enemies so that in iron, they won't have as much a load to carry on them. while the role of defender is important, it isn't remembered for anything. who will remember that your 10 'mels defeated his 10 CA raid on your ally's town at 24 minutes in the game? i'm not saying that glory and rememberence is all there is to the game, but i can guess that the way you're playing will net you a lot of "pooba, stop simming wouldja?" . nothing hurts more than running around defending raids and then being called simmayor. oh well anyways, moving on.

comps vs CA. matter of playing style. CA's fit the mobile defense a lot better. if players played to your guide, yes, CA's are the way to go. with my offensive minded midbronze, i prefer comps. i MIGHT do CA's but you'll rarely ever see me doing that unless i know i need to be running around killing vils.

> I take into consideration that the enemy has endured a substantial attack from the beneficiary of your tribute. The net result of that attack should put your enemy on the defensive and have him desperate
for a quick counter attack (if there is any counter attack at all). Let me define the enemy's best option for a quick counter attack: (1) a Camel or two, (2) a Cav or two, (3) a few CA, (4) a few Tool-Age military, and lastly (5) massed Compies. Now, assuming you are playing to win (i.e. using my strat) you want your allies free to attack, "
har har har

> leaving mobile defenses to you. They should still wall in woodies and such, but insofar as queuing forces at home for defense you must pick up the slack. Camels, Cav and CA are villy killers. They will run right around your compies. If there is an ST mixed in you're toast. And God forbid their attack strike in an area a screen or two away from your massed compies. "
okay i don't know why everyone seems to think that an ST or two will make all the difference in the world. you state right below that u use 'mels to kill the ST slingers to kill the CA. well, um slingers have less hp than comps, less attack, and does relatively less damage (take two deal two w/o stonemining upgrade vs comps take 4 deal 5 much greater range). besides, ST's do NOT deal that much damage to a massed comp group simply due to two facts. 1)splatter damage isn't big. the comps basically ahve to be right on top of each other. 2) they do stupid things like target the same comp. wasted rocks. u wanna micromanage a group of ST vs comps? if u can micromanage the ST's, surely i can micro my comps. comps have critical mass. mebbe 10 hittite ST's will chew up comps, but in practice, i have found that ST's do relatively little damage to a huge comp force (huge as in 20+).

now, cavs/CA running past my comps? bleh fine, they leave their base undefended...notice u didn't say anything about ST's. the ST's are too slow to run past. thus, my walls hold (bwahaha). meanwhile, i kick their econ's butt. they die, i'm fine, life is good.

> Insofar as "Stationary" defenses, compies are "so-so" in support of walls, and just plain bad in support of towers. Why? Two letters: S-T. In this situation I use Camels (to kill the ST and cav) and slingers (to kill the CA). "
bleh read above rebuttal

> Ok. 2nd point. You contested my belief that the lack of Engineering is a greater weakness than the higher cost of villagers. My reasoning here is that the lack of Engineering (especially coupled with the lack of Craftmanship) destroys Palmy's Iron Age. Palmy is not a siege civ - they are just plain outranged. As you know, the Iron Age is owned by siege, but for what it is worth, Palmy is also a weak priest civ (you every try watching your miserably pokie priests try to keep up, only to be killed by an errant clubber?). Concurrently, they are a weak AE civ. Scythes are it. Of course, you've stated that you agree with all that.
>
> So, what does that leave Palmy to do in the end? They have all of this purchasing power and nothing on the shelves that is worth buying but Scythes. That is frustrating. That, coupled with the fact that the sling shot negates the high villager cost and thus reduces Palmy's weakest period to the first 7 minutes of the game is why I rank Engineering at the top of my wish list for Palmy. "

now then, if given engineering, do u think that would make palmy a readily wanted iron age civ? their iron age doesn't look much better than shang's right now. and ballistas don't even begin to offer resistance vs really MASSED groups of scythes. you need helos to do that, because all the shots will be wasted on the first scythe that arrives, which dies, but doesn't give the ballistas enough time to reload before being able to spread fire. okay fine, you've got engineering, you've got time to fired a second, maybe third volley. how many scythes do u think u can kill out of an army of say 20 scythes? u need at least 4 shots to kill each scythe, that's 80 shots, so with an equal numbered army of 20 ballistas, u need 4 volleys. but u've gotten off only 3 volleys. oops, not enough. and that's assuming EQUAL distribution from the start. i.e. your first volley isn't wasted all on the first scythe. counting that factor in, you're going to need about 5 volleys. your ballistas will all be dead, he'll have at least 5-10 scythes left to press on. this is why i put the vil cost higher than engineering. with palmy, you have to LIVE to see iron. lower the vil cost, increase chances of survival in the early going.

now then, with your defensive style, why do u need to get engineering? for ballistas? cats suck for defense except vs other cats and vs ballista/helos. ballistas also don't fit in with your mobile defense pattern. are you going to go on the offensive now? bah, give your gold to an ally who can actually make use of it. give your wood and food up too. your 80 real peon econ should be ripping the map apart. send vil groups to follow into an attack and strip the resources from the conquered land.

with engineering, yes, it increases the power of your seige, but it would fit more with my mentality than with your gameplan. in iron, your hittite will be looking for resources. you've got them stripped in bronze. cough it up.

just offering an alternative way to play.

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 05-13-99 11:15 AM ET (US)     37 / 50       
A slingshot strat cannot be half-@ssed or it will certainly fail. A well-played slingshot will field such a massive army that it simply overwhelms any defense the opponent might choose to put up. But it is advanced in that each player must be committed to the slingshot. The military player must not bother with more villagers in Bronze, but instead use everything to get an overwheming force. Do you have a surplus of resources? Nonsense! Just not enough military buildings. Similarly, the econ player must not be forced to take military upgrades. Its the whole division of labor concept that allowed mankind to settle down in the first place.

Roman, while 170 is only enough gold for 8, there is the matter of an extra 250 food that you didn't bother to point out. Furthermore, would you rather have spent all those resources and have zero camels to show for it, or have 8 compies, and 250 food to boot?

As for stripping all the gold, I don't think its too good an idea. In the event your slingshot is successful, your allies peons will need something to do in Iron, and they are better at it than you. Free gold is nothing to turn down. The only case I can think of where this is not the case is if the pile "belongs" to the enemy. Then strip it ASAP.

Keep your stick on the ice.

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 05-13-99 02:02 PM ET (US)     38 / 50       
As many of you may know, I think Palmy is a lousy civ. When I get them in random civs I really have two choices. 1) To really damage the opposition in bronze and 2) To be able to tribute my allies well enough that they are capable of winning the game in bronze or iron.

Palmy has extreme difficulty over coming a BAD starting spot which occasionally leaves me with choice 3) Just trying to survive.

Since I am not often blessed with allies good enough to expertly take advantage of tributes to attack effectively and win the military 2v3, I usually have to resort to case 1.

If I can get a decent and fast semi-boom bronze w/Palmy (21v/15b 14 min) I can often mount a nice attack while still making occasional new workers and upgrading them economically. However, I still am in trouble vs a well executed big boom (29v/23b 14:30) as that economy has more food than mine and thus can expand faster.(Fortunately,most people can't do that or if they can ,they don't have the spot) After both of us get our tool and bronze age economic upgrades the effective percentage differences in gathering rates decline substantially. I honestly need to put "a real hurting on someone" in bronze w/Palmy IMO.

In iron Palmy's army suffers from lack of range. Palmy's scythe have no metalurgy. Palmy lacks good priests to help supports it's eles. Palmy has nothing at all to make it a military stand out in the Iron Age.

The following analysis will show why Palmy's vils are clearly not better than other civs that get all the economic upgrades in Iron !!

If you add up all the cost of the economic upgrades for both civs (wheel included) you'll find that a civ like Hitt spends 2165 res for all the upgrades while Palmy saves 440 on craftsmanship and 300 on coinage for a total of 1425 spent.

Now lets assume that a reasonable mid-iron economy has made 70 REAL vils. You may have a few less alive but some did die along the way.

Now for Hittite 2165/70 = 31 added cost per villager resulting in an effective cost per vil of 81 res.

For Palmy 1425/70 = 20 added and thus resulting in an effective cost per vil of 95 res to get a fully upgraded iron worker assuming you have made 70 of them.

Thus, assuming 70 vils, the Iron age Palmy still costs you over 17% more per worker.

I will now try to show that as a whole, Palmy's workers are no better than Hitt's in iron.

Shorefishing and Hunting.. Palmy is better but honestly how many shorefish and animals are left in mid iron ? You may hunt a stray deer or something but good luck remembering to assign that vil or two back to work during and iron battle. Hunting and SF bonuses are also effectively reduced by any walking. I'll say there is NO real advantage here in mid-iron.

Wood both civs have the same gather rate of 1.155 and the difference in carry rate 14/16 doesn't matter for 40 wood trees (3 trips) There are occasional 75 wood forest trees and these required Hitt to make 5 trips while Palmy needs 6. Thus Hittite-type civs have a very slight wood gathering advantage in iron.

Range of unit is an offshoot of the wood upgrade. Palmy lacks craftsmanship and thus every arrow shot has one less range. This is a SERIOUS disadvantage of the lack of craftsmanship.

Gold Palmy gathers gold at .95 while civ's w/coinage gather it at .935. This very slight advantage(1.6%)is hugely off set by the fact that coinage gives you effectively 25% more gold. Let's say that you have 2 gold mines in your area and they have 6400 gold total. You mine 1400 gold before coinage is done and 5000 after. Coinage thus gives you 1250 extra gold !! Clearly this off sets the tiny gathering speed advantage Palmy now has. Coinage give you free tribute again negating that advantage. Clearly, the Hitt type civs have a gold advantage too.

But wait, neilkaz, you didn't mention trading ! Unfortunately, and as usual, the manual is WRONG about Palmy getting twice as much gold per trip. They don't and have no way to get over 75 gold per trip! The benefit they do have is that they can get more gold from shorter trade routes than other civs can. However, you always won't have good trade routes safely functioning and you have to make the trade boats and give up food or wood to trade. IMO Palmy's trading bonus can rarely offset the lack of coinage. Thus Palmy is clearly inferior in terms of gold when it comes to the ironage.

Stone.. Hitt gathers at 1.05 and Palmy at 1.25.. Palmy is clearly gathering 19% faster here. As you'll normally have only a few guys on a stone mine this won't be reduced much by walking. However, there isn't a ton of stone on most maps and it isn't usuallyas important as gold. Thus, IMO, I'd still rather have coinage than Palmy's 19% faster stone mining capability.

Farming is 12.5 faster for Palmy.. this is nice but slightly offset by the time build the farms and also hurt by the lack of plow and irrigation. You get into a LONG game where you have built 15-20 farms and start having to recycle them and you'll see that having ALL the farm upgrades does indeed help you. I stress that, per my analysis, you need a large scale farming operation to benefit. IMO we can give Palmy only a slight farming advantage in mid-iron (ie effectively less than 10%)

Villagers Palmy's 1 armor and Piercing armor are almost worthless in the face of iron age weaponry. All vils dies when in contact with Iron age weaponry. OK so Palmy has Jihad but so do some other good iron tech civs like Phoe. I will give Palmy vils a tiny advantage due to armor in mid iron.

OK summing it all up in Mid Iron.

Wood very slight disadvantage for Palmy

Range (an off shoot of wood) clear disadvantage for Palmy)

Fish/Hunt no difference.. nothing much left

Gold Clear disadvantage for Palmy (rarely offset by trading) and Gold quantity is very important. With 2 typical mine Palmy mines 6400 while Hitt mines 7650. After ironing Palmy has 5600 gold to use on units/and military upgrades while. Hitt has 6750 gold or over 20% more for the same purpose after coinage.

Stone gathered 19% faster by Palmy.. not at all worthless but no where near as valuable as coinage would be.

Farming maybe at best effectively only 10% faster do to lack of farm upgrades, thus requiring continued rebuilding of farms.

Villagers Palmy's have a tiny advantage do to armor.

OK all in all, I have trouble believing that 19% faster stone mining plus at best 10% faster farming and a tiny vil armor advantage coupled with the chance for somewhat better trading can off set the LARGE benefit of having effectively 20% more gold touse on units.

Even if we give Palmy the benefit of the economic doubt and say that the gathering balances out.. we have one very BIG drawback to the lack of craftmanship and that is RANGE.

In conclusion, IMO, you spend over 17% more per Palmy villager to result in, at best, equivilent gathering while having every arrow shot travel 1 square less.

Thus we see Palmy's large drawbacks in iron. Not to mention their poor, in comparison to other civs, iron army.

IMO, in a well played 3v3,Palmy should not even bother to spend 1800 res and Iron and produce iron age units unless your allies are near their pop limits and you collectively need the military you can produce. Other than that,I'd stay in bronze and feed away while having my work areas walled and towered like fortresses.

When you look at the economic analysis and then consider Palmy's poor iron age army you can see why they need to do something that causes decisive pain to the enemy in the bronze age.

Now consider that Palmy has SEVERE trouble with a bad map and also is really hurt by tool rushes because it is really costly early in the game to replace dead 75 food vils.

Thus we see why I continue to insist that Palmy belongs with Greece and Carthage as one of the game's three worst civs.

I have almost never seen any one play a "GOOD" game w/Palmy and when they/I did we had a very good starting spot. ( I am not talking about trashing newbies who bronze in 19 minutes in their sim-city)

Palmy is a VERY poor civ. They are certainly unique and interesting, but they really STINK... neilkaz...

Grand Pooba
Inactive
posted 05-13-99 03:16 PM ET (US)     39 / 50       
Neil - your analysis of Palmy's economy is right on, brother! :-) But, I think you take your correct analysis to the wrong conclusion. If Palmy doesn't stack up in the Iron Age, why not begin to put on the pressure while the enemy is in stone?

Palmy's best bet is to rush to the tool-age, drop a market and shoot an ally. I find it helpful, sometimes, to actually see the event as it occurs, and so I will post this never-before shared game story that I wrote as I pieced together the Palmy Guide. In other words, its:

STORY TIME!!!

---------------

I used this strategy to perfection in a 3v3 gigamap continental game a little while ago. Of course, I was greatly helped by having very talented teammates in the form of Electrograv and Centaurie. I (the Palmyran) was situated at 3:00, my allies were at 1:00 and 5:00. This is the optimal setup for a Palmyran game. Most likely, the first attacks will occur on the "edges" of the alliance, at 1:00 and 5:00 and not directly to 3:00.

I found 7 berries immediately with my exploring villagers, dropped a granary and incurred only a 20 second delay in villager production. The villagers were directed in the following fashion:
The first 6 villagers went to food, #7 to wood, #8 explored, #9 through #12 to food, #13 to wood, #14 explored, #15 through #17 to food, #18 to wood. I clicked to tool upgrade well ahead of anyone else at 7:00 or so with about 50 wood extra. Upon clicking tool, focus was shifted to wood and my two exploring villagers met to construct a dock. I reached the tool age with 2 boats and about 250 food. I insta-built a market, and began tributing Centaurie who was already in the process of tooling the bad guy at 7.

The battle was going well for us. I had yet to see an enemy unit and my economy was humming along with 30 real villagers and about 6 boats. I dropped two semi-forward stables, tributed the rest of my wood, began walling, and progressed to bronze. Electrograv was in a heavy battle with Wayne111 and so he was the benefactor of this tribute. Centaurie complained of a small enemy presence in his town, and so two stables were built there to provide some defensive help. Upon hitting bronze, two camels were immediately dispatched to Electrograv (by accident - I meant to send them to Centaurie) where they helped put down a CA incursion, and then sent to Centaurie to help put down a small force of axers and slingers. The fast camels made little effort to cross the gigantic map from 1:00 to 5:00.

Four stables - two in my town, and two in Centaurie's were queuing up camels and scouts for vision when the Palmyran enemy attempted a Chariot attack on my farming operation. I incurred a small loss of 3 villagers and a farm before camels put down the attack. That was the last time and enemy was seen near my town, as the enemy could not sustain an offensive war effort while fighting off Centaurie's attacks.

Electrograv was quietly battling Wayne111, while Centaurie and I removed the enemy from 7:00-10:00. I continue to tribute Electrograv heavily with whatever resources were available: Wood and Gold being most important. He ironed and took the battle up a notch on Wayne. Meantime, green (SecretSquirrel I think) had amassed a moderate force of 6 galleys and come around the backside to skirmish with the fishing fleet. I was able to run the fleet out of harms way with the loss of only a few boats. The enemy's desperation required a harder-hitting punch than the navy was able to deliver, and in haste they failed to hunt down the entire fleet.

----------------

Story ends. I got sick or writing it. Bleh. The sum of what happened here is that I tooled first, tributed Sphinx who tooled one bad guy (Junebug) to death and then bronzed first. His Camels then chased put heavy pressure on the bad guys pocket player (Squirrel). My other ally, Electrograv, went toe-to-toe with Wayne the whole game and ultimately used a combination of his immense skill and my tributes to defeat him.

This game happened something like 5 months ago, and let me tell you: every player involved - 'cept me :-) - were well-respected and feared players - especially Wayne.

I'm tellin' ya - it works. :-)

-Grand Pooba

sphinx
Clubman
posted 05-14-99 04:44 PM ET (US)     40 / 50       
Oh, the glory of being an intermediate player I think it is far more important to be able to choose a proper strategy for the civ you got than to try and fit the civ to your strategy One thing for sure-a good player can win with Palmy and Carthage just as well as with Minoa. Does this mean that there is a potential for Palmy? Sure it does! Just don't do anything stupid (how easy is that ) and you will be OK.

Afterall, if not sure if Palmy sucks or not-just rush for tool and wall in all the way. No matter what happens-his early bronze attack will not harm you and you will have plenty of time to Iron with Palmy.

Hey, Pooba! Thanx for your compliments. You got bored with Gamers too, heh?

[This message has been edited by sphinx (edited 05-14-99).]

Grand Pooba
Inactive
posted 05-17-99 09:14 AM ET (US)     41 / 50       
Bored with Gamers. Yeah. I took some time off and you and Warlust stopped posting!!! :-(

But I'll be back with a vengeance tonight. I swear. I WILL PLAY TONIGHT. Pending the approval of the EPC - "Evening Planning Committee."

Neilkaz describes a good game with Palmy on the Gamers forum. He was left alone to tool in the late 10's and led the charge into the enemy's towns with scouts and camels. His game story gives strength to the idea that Palmy can indeed be a viable civ. Especially if the enemy lets it happen. ;-)

One thing is certain, if you get Palmy and win straight-up, pat yourself on the back and go to bed - it doesn't get any better than that. :-)

-Grand Pooba

disciplejim
Clubman
posted 05-19-99 03:00 PM ET (US)     42 / 50       
bringing strategy threads to the top
RomanWahoo
Inactive
posted 05-23-99 10:42 PM ET (US)     43 / 50       
Okay, i haven't been on in a while, so i couldn't really answer what couple of rebuttals i received. firstly, i fully respect pooba's way of playing palmy. i see no fault with it, as i have used it many times myself. i see it more as a position dependent type playing. no one ever said that the palmy will always play pocket in a 3v3 or 4v4 game. if i'm playing pocket, i will all the more consider pooba's playing style, but i must know and be able to trust that my allies will put my tributes to good use.

now, on my playing style. i will give you a few reasons.
1) varying my play too much leads to messy time frames.
2) if playing palmy as a wing player and tribber, you don't want to be dependent on your pocket player moving too far out to the front line only to have to save you.
3) palmy power is in bronze. why not make use of their bronze military variety and their peon gathering power in bronze, and allow your free tribute to keep your allies going in iron.


now to back up my points. 1) varying time frames. as palmyra, there is an inherent difference in time frames. if i play as the slinger (i.e. tribber), i won't be bronzing in quite a while. i have no defense to any sort of attack. small walls hold out only for a small amount of time, especially once the enemy gets even one stonethrower. a couple cavs plus a few archers will also take down a wall, since you cannot repair it. the walls will buy you enough time to run. but then what will your peons be doing? those supercosting villies are now useless. granted, your times will be slower playing palmy the conventional way, but they won't be off by a matter of 10 to 20 mins. 2) as palmyran slinger, you have to be in the pocket. otherwise, you are much too open to a tool rush. the other person will bronze as much as 1 to 2 mins earlier with the same economy, and more if he just makes less and goes with the tool rush. even if he stops at say 22-24 peons and tool rushes you, he'll be relatively weak, but you, being palmy, will be dead. assuming it's a 3v3, 2.5 vs 2 players is still a win as soon as the tool rusher starts to gain some inertia. now as pocket player, you have a very viable option of playing slinger. i myself have done it with success. however, i don't want to be drawn into an all economy no military playing style. yes, u can bronze, but u'll be so late getting there that if your slinging didn't help at all, then you'll be dead. 3) palmy strength is all geared towards bronze age. all the military units, superpeons etc etc etc. neil is very much so correct in his analysis of palmyra, but his analysis is of their IRON age, not their bronze age. i want to be able to use my strength when i can, and then fall back to playing sim city and tribbing when everyone else is in iron, as i only have scythes to play with. now then, you've got super peons in bronze, you can gather as much of the gold as you possible can, and trib it to your allies as they need it. your enemies must be in iron and must have coinage in order to make up for the difference. by then, you'll probably have started trading. thus, you should be almost equal in the amount of gold mined, but you'll have the trading advantage. you can say that civs like minoa will win with their superranged comps, but, as sd_adept points out, any civ can win with comps, it's as much a matter of how MANY you have as it is how good they are. if you've got 15 comps, and there's 10 minoa comps, you'll probably win. just make more than they have.

now to answer thor. yes, i would rather spend those resources by getting the composite upgrade than to get camels. gold is by no means equivalent to food. i personally would value 10 gold at about 15 or so food in early bronze age, at about 20 food in bronze-iron, at maybe 22-24 food in late iron, when gold is scarce, because i will probably have about 7k food, but no gold at all. now also, don't forget, you now have access to composites, which are much better at destroying stuff. not the best peon killers, but possibly the best peon disrupters...they have to run, they aren't working, they drop a pit, cut 120 wood, then have to run again before the comps catch up. they aren't doing any work at all. with camels, once u spend the resources, you have nothing to show for it if your camels die to the enemy chariot archers. i'm not advocating for the sole allocation of resources to composites, i'm advocating that u push for composites, using camels first as a primary defensive unit, then later as a secondary offensive unit. now then, you're also asking what to do with the 250 food? make more peons! palmy is always scraping for food to get more peons. well now you've got it and you're complaining? you can make 3 peons, who farm and make more peons who farm and make more peons. if nothing else, you've got the food to make the comps once you've finished the upgrades. i'd personally make those 3 peons to gather more resources.

RomanWahoo
Inactive
posted 05-24-99 02:03 AM ET (US)     44 / 50       
oops, missed a couple things in thor's post...

firstly, yes, slingshot strats must be executed to perfection to work well. more room for error and less room for flexibility = more losses. again, communication is key. you have to know your partners, but just knowing them isn't enough...you have to know what they're doing. okay so how do u seperate the econ upgrades from the military upgrades? who gets the woodcutting upgrades? the range or the woodchoppers? who gets the goldmining upgrades? the econ man or the military guy who follows up his attack with peons? if u must separate it that way, it's a lot harder, and you're much more partner dependent.

second, that's what i mean by stripping the map...to follow up your ally's attacks with your own peons and strip the enemy's gold mines. with your bronze age diversity, u should be able to overpower most of the civs, or at least push them back far enough that you can grab one of their gold mines. that's one less gold mine for them, about 2400+ gold for you, a swing of probably nearly 5000 gold, to be tribbed to your partner.

ULT_WiLD
Clubman
posted 05-24-99 06:21 PM ET (US)     45 / 50       
I just wanted to say that Palmyrans are awsome if used properly (not just as feeder).


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 05-24-99 06:58 PM ET (US)     46 / 50       
I no longer break out in a cold sweat when I hit HCCCCC and notice that I have 50 food left over. It's just that whatever Palmy can do, someone else can do better. I mean, look at the provisos thrown into some of these responses. Paraphrasing
  • Good berries, 1 or 2 gazelle and close trees
  • 4 close shore fish and good trees
  • If you find your berries right away, and they are in a good location...

Any civ would play well with starts like those, and most (all?) would play better. Many have stated that tool is not a good time for Palmy. I am assuming that is because they have come to the foregone conclusion that they will not be first to tool with a decent villager count, so despite a full tool tree, they will not be able to mount a great tool rush.

Bronze, then. Palmy econ is now essentially equivalent to Iron age civs with full econ upgrades. Not too shabby. But now their workers are only about 25% better than other civs and still cost 50% more. Fortunately, food is usually not such a big deal now, but you still boom at a disadvantage. And Palmy get all military units. If you are going to do something military, this is the time.

Iron. Here, you realize that your 60 peon econ cost you an extra 1500 food, mostly at a time when you could least afford it. And for that, you got Coinage and Craftsmanship for free. Except you got a limited version -- no extra range. No engineering weakens your seige, no craftsmanship weakens all missile troops, thank goodness for the Scythes. Oh, wait. No metallurgy. Well, shoot. I don't get any units that outclass anyone elses...

So it all boils down to a Bronze battle, and keeping your opponents in Bronze so you keep your "advantage". In a gig map, it is almost ludicrous to think that your quick camels and standard issue CA could keep people of your caliber from amassing the resources to go Iron.

What's the answer? Depends on how well you play as a team. If you are kind of a loose alliance, and you are all about equal in ability, go for it. But if you truly play as a team, I think you are better off tribbing your excess to a civ with a military future and get a tougher allied force.

Keep your stick on the ice.

RomanWahoo
Inactive
posted 05-26-99 01:08 AM ET (US)     47 / 50       
the thing is that yes, almost all civs will play those positions better, but you have to understand some of the extra bonuses palmy gets too. phoenician like wood cutting makes for great boat booming, faster gold collection means either you get more camels/comps or you need less on gold, meaning more on wood and therefore more ships. your analysis of each age is correct, but, if you're playing people of equal caliber, no matter how you play it, you're more than likely going to lose anyways. the exception? when you're playing pocket player on a map like medit or cont w/ rivers where you're protected. other than that, you're playing on the wing, which is easier said than done. playing palmy in pocket is almost godsend, as you will die on the wing to a slight tool rush while tribbing your allies.

now, you're going to reach bronze later than everyone else as well. are you going to trib your allies your resources now? by this time, the wars are already going on. the other three will have a combined force greater than your two allies because you are using part of your own resources, tribbing maybe 75% of your resources to your allies. 3 armies vs 2.75 (probably less, as your allies will be trying to strengthen their own econs as well) is still lost. so you're going to squander away your most powerful age by tribbing? now THAT is foolish. you're trying to tell me that with your greater economy you can't keep the other guy busy AND prevent him from getting 1000f and 800g? i don't know what you're doing wrong, but assuming your economy is intact, you should be able to do this and THEN some. compies/stoners/super 'mels should be more than enough for anyone to handle without going iron. if both economies are intact, i would say that only 3 civs can beat palmy in bronze...shang, phoe, hittite. the first two for economy and military diversity, and hittites because they are hittites and will kill you on seas first, then use their stoners and CA's in concert, but even hittites will be fighting one heck of a battle with their wood dependency.

tribbing is fine, but it should be done with care. you can't go into every game that you get palmy thinking, okay, i'm palmy, time to trib and play sim city. you'll lose more often, and faster, than you think.

Wascally_Wabbit
Clubman
posted 05-26-99 04:40 PM ET (US)     48 / 50       
Well i don't know about all that technical stuff but i know that palmy are a formidable force once in iron. They have most upgrades to the super units, which is NICE. But not a civ i'd use, just to be on the safe side.

------------------

He's a rabbit...

And he eats them...

Which is why they call him...

~Death_Wabbit~

HonoredMule
Clubman
posted 05-03-00 08:02 PM ET (US)     49 / 50       
Palmy Rules!! To the top!
Elijeh
Clubman
posted 05-03-00 08:04 PM ET (US)     50 / 50       
Man, the good'ole days...
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