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Topic Subject:A bronze rush strat (a variation)
Dave
Clubman
posted 01-15-01 07:39 PM ET (US)         
Well, when I'm not playing RoR on the zone, I'm continuing to try to whittle down the bronze time.

From what I have read and some experimentation, I've found something that might be viable. The results are possible bronze times anywhere between 11:30 minutes and 12:30 minutes for shang
on conti, def res, no reveal.

I know that wedsaz will jump in and say that 11:00 minutes is possible with shang or persian - but please don't - I'm still experimenting and will hopefully shave off more time.

I just thought that I'd share with you an idea for a quick bronze that allows you to make 2-3
cav immediately after bronzing. It doesn't always work because of map conditions.

Here's the strat and afterwards I'll comment on pros/cons and ask for comments and other ideas:

Settings: conti, def res, no reveal. I use huge map since usually I wind up in 2v2 games (the
amount of res on a huge map may differ from that of a large map so I don't know if this strat
will work for large map). Civ is shang.

1) Hit H and C.

2) Grab 1 vil and make house.

3) Send the other two vils towards the edge of the map.

4) Hit H and then C until res exhausted.

5) As the two vils approach the edge of the map, send each one in the opposite direction along the perimeter of the map. You are looking for a cluster of shorefish. If you find a cluster of 3 or more then you are in business. If by 30 seconds you do not see many shorefish then I recommend abandoning this strat and going for the usual berry start.

6) Send the 4th vil out looking for forest. Send the 3rd vil which built the house in another
direction looking for forest as well.

Hopefully by now, you have found enough starting shorefish, a nice forest and the berry path (for later). With luck you found the gold mine as well.

7) When you find that cluster of shorefish pit by it and assign all 4 vils to the shorefish. Send the 5th vil to the shorefish as well.

8) Continue to make new vils and houses (as necessary) but stop at 16. New vils cut stragglers and then pit by forest.

9) As you get close to having enough wood for a second pit, send a vil out along the map border looking for more shorefish. Any cluster of 2 or more is good. Pit by new shorefish.

10) Leave 4 vils on wood and transfer the other woodies to the new shorefish. Move along the perimeter and look for new shorefish clusters. The first cluster of shorefish should be used up by now.

11) You should have 12 vils on shorefish and 4 on wood. When you have enough wood, make sure to build a granary using one of the 4 woodies.

12) If you have enough shorefish and you found them early enough then you should be able to hit the tool button anywhere between 6 and 7 minutes.

13) After you hit the tool upgrade, start shifting vils from shorefish to wood. The idea is to now start to make a dock and a few fishing boats. This is the really hard part because you need to balance the incoming food with enough wood production.

14) Have a vil build the barracks at around 40-50% tool.

15) It is tricky but I have been able to manage it so that once in tool I have roughly 300 wood and almost 800 food. You have to balance the number of fb's and the number of vils assigned
to shorefish, making sure that you have enough woodies. The numbers depend on the ratio of food to wood. Usually I keep about 5 vils on shorefish and then move them to the berries afterwards. A good way to estimate the wood/food ratio at tool arrival is to look at the TC's tool % upgrade and match that against the amount of wood and food piles that you have, adjusting as necessary.

16) Make two groups with the woodies and have the first group make a market. The second group
makes a stable.

17) Hit bronze upgrade. You should be able to do this somewhere between 9 and 10 minutes.

18) Take two vils and send them towards the middle of map. If you can manage it then search for the enemy base. Build a stable. If you find that you have execess wood, build another stable. These two guys will build new houses as required. Make sure that you have housing for at least 2-3 cav right after bronzing.

19) Back at home, take 4 woodies and build a pit by gold and put them on the gold.

20) You should have bronzed somewhere between 11:30 and and 12:30 minutes. Hit Ctrl-L and cycle through the stables and make cavs or camels depending on your gold pile.

21) Send those cavs/cams to the enemy base and wack as many vils as possible. Ignore any towers or tool army. Go for the villies. This is critical because your econ is fragile and you need to really hurt your opponent's econ.

22) While you are harassing the enemy with your cavs/cams you need to capitalize and catch up
with your econ. Keep on making vils, expand your econ as in other strats.


Pros: usually on the zone, by the 12 minute mark most players (even a lot of good ones) haven't even tooled or have barely tooled. If this is the case and you find their vils fast then they are screwed.

Cons: this strat is heavily map res dependent. Don't do it if you can't find shorefish early or you will wind up with lousy bronze time AND sucky econ. Also the success depends on a lot of tricky juggling and also very good scouting. I never claimed that this strat is easy to pull off.


I have practiced this strat about 30 times against the computer. About 1/3 of the time I found good shorefish and continued with the strat. The other times, I abandoned the strat. With good shorefish, my bronze times were 11:42 to 12:20 minutes with 3 cav right in bronze. I have tried it only a few times on the zone in 2v2 situations and because of lousy map conditions and the usual zone lag crap, got more like 13 to 13:30 times.

My problem now is doing adequate scouting. This is CRITICAL. Once in a 2v2 game I bronzed in 13 minutes and no one else was tool. I then proceeded to squander my advantage looking all over the map for the enemy as they ran away from my 4 camels. I wound up getting only a few of their vils - needless to say, as a result I couldn't keep up with their booming econs in the mid-game.

Anyway, that's it. Sorry for the long post. I know that this strat (as all others) is not perfect and has it's advantages and weaknesses. Just thought I'd pass along my experimentation.

Comments, suggestions, advice welcome.

AuthorReplies:
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-15-01 11:06 PM ET (US)     1 / 33       
Dave:
I have several comments.
1. Good going! I'll try to give you ideas that might help improve and especially stabilize your performance.
2. Your bronze time is ok. I only saw shang bronze in 11 and fight effectively a few times, and those were good players with exceptional spots. Persian is "special", and I'm sure your strat could adapt itself to them well.
3. Is shorefish really worth the extra scouting and walking, or would an earlier boat boom be better?
4. Why not switch entirely to boats while tooling?
5. Scouting - Add a scout to your cav/camel pack for a rush. You can train it *while* bronzing, and the extra villie kills are more than worth the 100f believe me.
 
Finally, let me state that old shang could bronze pretty consistantly in 12 using berries, and no fish of any kind, by building to 20-24 villies before tooling so they could bronze immediately in tool. Even me, crappy as I am with land-only econs, managed to do it a few times.
 
Just food for thought. Again, congratz.
Dave
Clubman
posted 01-16-01 00:39 AM ET (US)     2 / 33       
wedsaz:

Yes, adding the scout is a good idea. I have a lot of work to do with the scouting though. I find that it is hard to pull off everything cause there is so much micromanagement required and absolutely no room for error.

I have been trying for months now to get comparable bronze times with berries and then boats but the best I ever got was 14 to 14:30 minutes. I am convinced that you have to have at least some non-trivial shorefishing operation. By foregoing the boats until tool you can pit around the perimeter and shorefish like mad. This food collection appears to be ALOT faster than that of the boats. Also with only 16 vils it is really tight on wood so I found that you can't really spare it on boats. Also more boats in stone means you have to spend even more wood on new houses.

Once in tool, I switch to boats and move vils over to berries and wood.

If you were able to pull off 12 minutes with 20-24 real vils then I think that the gathering rates have changed since you last tried it. I just can't get 12 minutes with that many real vils. And I've never seen anyone do it with so many vils.

Anyway, I'm still working on the strat - like I said - it doesn't always work. And when you do get the fast bronze time it is hard to convert the fast bronze to a win. Ah, well ... maybe one day ...

IceWaVe
Banned
posted 01-16-01 02:10 AM ET (US)     3 / 33       
Please don't use profanity

[This message has been edited by Cherub Socrates (edited 01-16-2001).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-16-01 02:31 AM ET (US)     4 / 33       
Dave:
1. Glad you agree about the scout, it makes a huge difference for cav rushes. If you're going to make 4 cavs, try to split them up into 2 groups of 1 scout + 2 cavs, and number those groups - makes things much easier.
2. A boat gathers 0.40f/sec, the same rate as farming. RoR shorefishing gathers at 0.60f/sec, so yes it is faster, BUT... it takes 410 seconds for a lone villie to chop 230w for 4 FBs and a house, since the chopping rate is (according to mrfixit's charts) 0.56w/sec. In those 410 seconds you could get 246f by shorefishing at 0.60f/sec. Add another 410 seconds, and your shorefishers bring in another 246f... while your 4 FBs (counting 30 secs training time) bring in about 536f, AND your lone chopper chops another 230w. Things speed up if your have multiple fishers/choppers, but the result doesn't change. So the moment your incoming food is enough to sustain villie production, I recommend you start making FBs with the remainder of your workforce.
3. Make a few more vills, and you won't be so tight on wood. You might even bronze faster.
4. Gathering Rates - That's very possible, mrfixit's charts don't seem to be updated for the patch... damn. Could someone please get the new numbers so I can make strats that make sense again?
 
Ok, now I'm all confused. Ignore everything I said since the patch came out.
Dave
Clubman
posted 01-16-01 11:14 AM ET (US)     5 / 33       
wedsaz:

1. On my way to bronze I usually have enough food to spare for a scout so definitely I will have to work that into the strat. Like I said - it's hard to do all of the things simultaneously. In one 2v2 zone game I bronzed in 13 minutes and had 3 cams out of 3 separate stables right away. I used the group numbers to split them up and search for the enemy. Soon after I had 3 more cams out. But the scouting was lousy. After I hit both enemies a little they dispersed and I had trouble following two civs' fleeing vils. I think that I would have been better off keeping the cams together and really wack one enemy and then go for the other. It is hard to stop 3-6 camels when you are barely in tool.

2. I tried a few times making a dock and a few fb but I found that I really need that extra wood to make more pits along the shore. I move the fishermen along the map border and scoop up the fish. So I wind up using the wood that I would normally use for docks and fb for pits. It is not uncommon for me to make 3 pits for shorefish. Even with one dock it is hard to sustain a good incoming rate of wood for fb because a lot of vils are on shorefish. I'm gonna experiment with the fb ratio, however.

3. A couple times in tool I had lots of food but was low on wood so I made 2 or 3 new vils. This does help. But I try to balance things so that I can bronze right after tool (after making the stable and market).

4. I read somewhere that shorefishing was more like twice as fast as berry picking. I never bothered to verify this. But shorefishing is much faster than fb or berry picking so a fast bronze needs some kind of shorefishing happening.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-16-01 03:27 PM ET (US)     6 / 33       
Dave:
1. Scouts do make it a lot easier, and yes hit one opponent at a time. Kill one opponent in a 2v2, and it's down to a 2v1... at which point the other usually resigns.
2. With the RoR rates, boat fishing would be very advantageous over shorefishing within a few mins. It's just a matter of whether you can maintain villie production until the boats start raking in fish. Also shorefishing requires more scouting and more walking - FBs have better LoS, and move fast.
3. Yes, I know you want to bronze right after tool. That's why I recommend making a few extra villies in stone (not many), if you have a delay before tooling.
4. AoE shorefishing was 0.80f/sec to berry/hunting's 0.45f/sec, and persian hunting was 0.75f/sec. It was toned down to 0.60f/sec in RoR while persian hunting stayed at 0.75f/sec and berry/hunting at 0.45f/sec. Therefore SF is now 33% faster than berries, while persian hunting is 66% faster than berries and 25% faster than SF. If you want fast food, try your strat with persian hunting.
 
Anyway, I don't know for sure what the stats are now, since mrfixit's unit sheets haven't been updated...

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Dave
Clubman
posted 01-16-01 03:51 PM ET (US)     7 / 33       
wedsaz:

Probably some combination of shorefishing at the beginning and then fishing boats will give good bronze times with more stability.

The search for that balance continues ...

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 01-16-01 06:09 PM ET (US)     8 / 33       
Dave:

I am very excited that you are continuing to work on this strat. I think you could win a lot of games with it on the Zone.

I've experienced a hard time involving fishing boats and keeping the time a real "rush" time. By moving villas off food and onto wood in late Stone/early Tool means sacrificing something. Usually that something is the food to Bronze, or the food for a Scout, or not having the food to Bronze immediately.

I am very curious if you can find a balance that would provide fishing boats so when the shore fish and berries are used up there is an immediate food income that replaces them.

Dave
Clubman
posted 01-16-01 06:24 PM ET (US)     9 / 33       
Blitz:

To date, I have found that switching to fb in mid or late stone leads to slower tool and bronze times.

What is amazing about the shorefishing is that by about the 4:30 and 5:00 mark I usually have the second shorefish pit up and more wood coming in for a third one a little later. At this point I usually only have about 200 food. But by moving 12 vils to shorefish the food comes rolling in like crazy in under 2 minutes. If you can find an initial cluster of 3 or 4 shorefish and then find 2 additional sources of at least 2 or 3 shorefish you are cooking.

I have tried a little bit with fb but then I have to move more vils to wood and that really hurts the tool time. With only 16 vils I found that I could build only one dock and then a lot of the time that dock sat there doing nothing cause the wood was too tight. That's why I finally decided to forego the fb in stone and save the wood for extra pits.

[This message has been edited by Dave (edited 01-16-2001).]

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-16-01 06:57 PM ET (US)     10 / 33       
It's looking more and more like the wood rate may have changed drastically in one of the recent patches... I used to be able to maintain FB production from *2* docks with *12* villies (although they were mino, but still).
Dave
Clubman
posted 01-16-01 11:33 PM ET (US)     11 / 33       
wedsaz:

You should try your 12 vil strat (against the computer) to check out the tool and bronze times. With 12 - 16 vils I could never get 12 minute bronze with fb and berries while ignoring shorefish.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 02:00 AM ET (US)     12 / 33       
Dave:
That was with minoan (saved 360w on those 24 FBs), and it was insanely tight on wood for buildings. Still it was enough to wall in early tool (behind the dock-block or house-wall), squeeze through to a 12 min bronze, get a few extra TCs and dozen ranges up by the time the compies upgrade was done (14 mins), and whoop assy.
 
I don't think I have the 1.0c patch, but first chance I *will* try it as soon as possible. It's very possible that the wood income has changed, which would explain why pure boat strats (and associated civs) are fell out of fashion somewhat.
Dave
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 02:08 AM ET (US)     13 / 33       
So you were mino, made two docks and pumped out fb? Your first vils were only on berries and you ignored the shorefish?

I've tried with mino like that but with 3 docks. 12 minutes seems out of reach - I kept on getting more like 14 minutes. Maybe with 2 docks it might work - I'll try it out.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 02:34 AM ET (US)     14 / 33       
Dave:
No berries. The strat was very simple, went like this:
1. Build house with villie 1, find forest with villies 2 and 3.
2. Build pit in forest (touching as much wood as possible, don't leave space), villies 1-4 get choppin'.
3. Find water and build dock with villie 5 (don't worry about fish, just build at the closest non-puddle - or dock block if at all possible), villies 6 and 7 go to wood.
4. Villie 5 builds house while dock 1 makes FB, then goes about a screenful away to build dock 2.
5. Dock 2 built, make FBs up to 24 and villie 5 makes houses for a while. Make villies 8-12 as food comes in.
6. At 12 villies, stop making them. Advance to tool when you have enough food, take a woodie off to build a (defensive) barracks very nearby while villie 5 searches for a granary spot, then starts building it.
7. In tool, build your market with 3-4 villies and start woodworking ASAP. You'll also want to make at least more 4 villies.
8. With 1-2 villies, wall in a good distance away keeping forests, a gold mine, and enough room for a dozen archeries inside - sounds like a lot of stone but it's not if you do it at chokepoints. Build your archery and train 2-3 scout ships.
9a. (stuck in boat war?) Continue training villies, making docks and warboats until you control the shores, even if you have enough food to bronze. Anything short of mino, hittite or yammy will fall - against those... run for bronze, scout/camel rush like mad, and hope for the best.
9b. (cav/camel rush?) Put all 4 new villies on gold. While bronzing research cav armor+toolworking, build 2 stables, and pump out 2 scouts. Train some slingers if you have stone left over from walling. Add your cavs/camels to those scouts when you bronze, and git them villies.
9c. (compie defense) Put 2 villies on wood and 2 on gold. While bronzing, build a dozen archeries. Train some slingers if you have stone left over from walling. In bronze start impie, artisanship, and war galley research in that order of importance. Build a govt center and multiple TCs asap. Then research compies from one archery while training 2 batches of impies from the rest, so that by the time any assy CA rushers come, you'll have 40 compies waiting. Enjoy.
9d. (iron jump) Put 4 villies on wood, build archery, bronze asap, build stable and get gold mining while you do. In bronze, build govt center and multiple TCs, mine gold like mad. Add a siege workshop and iron away. Used to get 18 min out of this one, helos around 19 mins.
 
Those are the variations I've personally had success with. I sure hope they didn't change the rates on me, I used to have a lot of fun with this thing.
peter
HG Alumnus
posted 01-17-01 08:42 AM ET (US)     15 / 33       
The toughest thing here is to keep count of villis and making sure all your FBs are actually fishing. all the micromanagement there is what keeps me from getting a decent time. The wood seems to be okay.
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 03:30 PM ET (US)     16 / 33       
Peter:
1. Yes, keeping count of villies isn't easy, but it's easier with this strat because I just train 5 after the villie gap. Plus RoR has queues.
2. Boats are easy - I just spread them over the fishing spots as they're made, reassigning idle groups once in a while, and all is well.
 
What I find hard is keeping the woodies from getting "lost", going to chop at the far end of forests and stuff...

[This message has been edited by wedsaz (edited 01-17-2001).]

Dave
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 03:42 PM ET (US)     17 / 33       
wedsaz:

LOL. Not only are your woodies getting "lost" but so are your posts! You should have been responding to Peter's comments.

About your strat and step 9 c):

You say: "while bronzing build a dozen archeries"

Is that an exaggeration? A dozen archeries in 2 1/2 minutes? Where does all of that wood come from since you spent it on fb's. And even if you have that much wood, how many vils are building those archeries? Seems like 2-4 vils would have a hard time putting up 12 archeries in such a short time.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 03:51 PM ET (US)     18 / 33       
Dave:
I hope you noticed 9 a, b, c and d is a branching point.
 
I meant *start* building your 12 archeries. By bronze you must have at least one to start the impie research, and you should have a dozen of them by the time the compie upgrade is done. Since you stop at 24 FBs, after tool you have a dozen choppers working for nothing else but those archeries.
 
It's close, and it's extreme - but was effective against assy CA rushes, which is more than could be said for other strats at the time. Minoan is the shang of the sea.

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Dave
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 04:45 PM ET (US)     19 / 33       
wedsaz:

> I hope you noticed 9 a, b, c and d is a branching point.

Duh. But of course. That kind of case notation is hardly foreign to me.

It's the way it is written:

> While bronzing, build a dozen archeries.

Sounds like you are saying build 12 archeries within the time it takes to bronze. Especially since you later say that right after the compie upgrade you can have 40 compies out. Please "say" what you "mean" to remove ambiguity.

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 05:25 PM ET (US)     20 / 33       
Ok, so while you bronze, *start* making your dozen archeries, as wood allows (you're not spending it on much else anyway).
 
In bronze, get the impie upgrade asap, and continue making archeries once it's started.
 
When the impie upgrade is completed, start the compie upgrade and train impies at the other archeries. You can train 2 batches before the compie upgrade is done, and they get upgraded, so you should have about 30-40 compies by then. Of course, "then" means about 14 mins, a lovely 1:40 before assy CAs come out of their archeries.
Dave
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 06:03 PM ET (US)     21 / 33       
OK, I'm willing to experiment with those ideas and see what comes out of it.

I suspect, however, that 30-40 impies/compies out by 14 minutes stretches reality (just a wee-bit wouldn't you say?) but heck I'll give you the benefit of the doubt ...

At any rate, my feeling is that if you can have even 5-10 compies out by 14 minutes - well, by golly, it's safe to say that you are golden (especially if they aren't too far away from the enemy base).

BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 06:27 PM ET (US)     22 / 33       
wedsaz:

Reality check time!

Dave's strat of rushing to Bronze is to have a few Bronze army units fast. Your boasting of hoards of Compies is impossible. If it were possible nobody would waste their time with "boom" strats because you could beat everybody to Bronze and have a lot bigger army every time -- LOL. That just isn't possible.

Keep dreaming of your invented "Minoan fast-boom" strat until you can play again, because reality says you are off-based again. Maybe reality got changed in the last patch?

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 07:31 PM ET (US)     23 / 33       
Dave:
Use a calculator and check if you want. 24 FBs, 0.40f/sec, 5 mins (240 secs - and I'm assuming they only start once you tool, which they don't). You've got enough food for your 4 villies in tool, the woodworking, impie and compie upgrades, and roughly 40 impies in 2 batches.
 
BlitzkreigComin:
I have 3 answers for you.
1. It's possible that reality changed in the latest patch, I noticed the stats at mrfixitonline.com haven't been updated for the new shang villie cost and phoenie wood rate and there may be other changes. I can only swear this *used* to work, but I concede that it might not be possible with the new patch(es).
2. You don't seem to fully understand this strat. Everything has a price, any advantage is relative.
 
Advantages: Fast bronze (about equal to shang in the bronze rush days), lots of food, with minoa (the best compies, which defeat CAs easily if you can get them in time). Near-perfect counter to the assy CA rush, good vs most other bronze rushes.
Disadvantages: Slow tool (9 mins!), not much wood to spare before 9:30 or so because of the boat boom and low villie count, and main econ is on the sea. All of this combined was a deathwish in the early RoR scene, which is why I was experimenting with other civs (such as palmy) at the time.
 
I don't know if it's useful or even possible anymore. All I know is that it was *very* useful back in AoE, against a strat which little else could beat. About a year ago I tried it again in AoE, where good players still use almost exclusively assy... and ruled the map, despite being incredibly rusty and against a good assy rusher.
 
I hope we're wrong. I hope the stats didn't change and there's just some trick you don't know. But I must accept the possibility that the stats may have changed, and my favorite strat might be only history now.

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wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 07:40 PM ET (US)     24 / 33       
BlitzkreigComin:
Plus, after being whooped by a clubber rush, maybe you should try to be a bit more open-minded?
BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 09:12 PM ET (US)     25 / 33       
wedsaz:

LOL

Being beat by a clubber rush is a lot more realistic than seeing 40 Compies at 14:00 -- duh. I am very open-minded until we start hearing wedsaz nonsense and then the "here we go again" thoughts come out. Sorry.

BTW whenever you get back on the Zone (sorry to bring that up too) I will gladly beat you using a clubber rush. I beat a great RoR player with that strat today, and am quite happy with that strat these days. I'm glad someone beat me with it so I could add it to my bag of tricks.

ManBehindTheCurtain
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 09:49 PM ET (US)     26 / 33       
12 archeries = 1800 wood.

And let us not forget the government center and the four or five new town centers = 1200 wood.

And woodworking. 120 food, 75 wood.

And the composite bowman upgrade.

Did we forget to mention the armor upgrades, and you are going to need artisanship (second wood chopping upgrade) 170 food, 150 wood.

And 40 composites (1600 food and 800 gold), for which you will need 10 new houses (400 wood).

By 14 minutes with 16 villagers.

All made possible by 24 fishing boats.

Sure, I can see that. Happens all the time.


Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-17-01 11:59 PM ET (US)     27 / 33       
BlitzkreigComin:
Good, can't wait to see it.
 
ManBehindTheCurtain:
It's pretty close, but almost all of those villies are on wood, and the wood upgrades are researched first... I did the math, it comes out close, but a couple hundred ahead on the chopping side. Same as food and gold basically, tight but sufficient.
 
Only 1-2 new TCs near wood at first, the new villies trained there go straight to chopping so the wood income increases. House, wood pit and villie increase in one. Once the archeries are built and the compies trained, we can pour all our resources into growing our land econ (that means a lot more TCs, villies, and market upgrades).
 
Reasons it never became popular in AoE:
1. "minoan - great compies, too slow to get there" - Yes, that's right. That was the common belief in the bronze rush days.
2. "No CAs? Bah."
3. "FBs? Bleh, and I need the wood for CAs anyway."
4. and my favorite of course, "12 villies? are you INSANE???" (they didn't take into account the 24 FBs)
 
The math says it's close on resources until after the compies come out but just enough, and that's exactly how I remember it. I also seem to remember a lot of dead CAs.

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Dave
Clubman
posted 01-18-01 01:06 AM ET (US)     28 / 33       
I have been checking out wedsaz' so-called "minoan fastboom strat" as outlined in post #14 of this thread.

I used a huge map with def res but with REVEAL MAP (and you will soon see why).

I tried wedsaz' strat 9 times. I will point out that I was using REVEAL MAP and kept on getting roughly the same results - about a 14 minute bronze. With no reveal it's more like 15 minutes - which is why after two trials with no reveal I switched to REVEAL MAP.

I see a couple of problems with this strat. Here are my findings.

The times that I am quoting are from an actual trial run that I made with REVEAL MAP, def res, huge map with mino. Each time I ran the test, I kept note of the times and the times I give below are pretty much what I got every run.

1) The 5th vil is born at about 50 seconds. But after the first vils made the pit and the 5th vil makes the 1rst house - you only have about 50 - 70 wood (50 left over from starting wood and at most 20 new wood in from pit) so the 5th vil has to wait until there is 100 wood to make a dock. NOT GOOD.

2) Vil #5 has to wait ~30 seconds till he can start making the 1rst dock. Usually, you can't start making the 1rst dock until about 1:20 to 1:30

3) At about the same time (1:30) the 7th vil is out. Rather than have vils standing around idling I sent 5 and 6 to wood and vil 7 starts making the 1rst dock instead.

4) At about 2:15 the 1rst dock is done. Vil makes house while dock makes 1rst fb.

5) At about 3:00 you have enough wood for 2nd dock. Vil starts making 2nd dock a screenful away from 1rst dock.

6) At 3:30 we have only 7 vils and 2 or 3 fb! Ouch!

7) At about 4:40 we finally have enough food to make the 8th vil! !!!! The TC is idle for on average 3 minutes!

8) At about 7:00 the 12th vil is born!

9) At 8:30 you have 500 food - go ahead and press that tool upgrade button at the very well rested TC.

10) At 9:35 the 24th fb is out.

11) Reach tool at 10:30 with about 200 wood and almost 800 food.

12) Make 4 vils while 4 woodies make market and then get wood chopping upgrade.

13) You are able to press the bronze upgrade button at about 11:30 minutes.

14) While bronzing, you have enough wood to make at most 4 archeries. Forget the 12 magical archeries - who the heck needs a calculator to figure out that that is impossible.

15) You arrive in bronze at 14 minutes (with REVEAL MAP).


The main problems with the "minoan fast-boom strat":

1) The TC is idle for on average 3 minutes before the 5 minute mark. This is the ultimate kiss of death. If you want to bronze in 12 minutes you have to press the tool upgrade at the latest at 7 minutes. If the 8th vil comes out at 4:30 then you have 2:30 minutes to make 4 more vils and gather 500 food!

2) The strat calls for too many fishing boats (given the number of real vils attempting to sustain good wood production). You typically arrive in tool with nearly 4 times the amount of food as you have wood. Even by making 4 more vils you don't help the wood supply fast enough and the wood chopping upgrade can't help you until you are almost ready to bronze.

3) Using only one vil to make the docks is deadly. It takes too long for the docks to be built and the fb production is delayed as a result. This strat should probably use two vils to make the docks and houses. On the other had, the strat is always strapped for wood from start to finish and so having the docks come up "too fast" and then be idle due to lack of wood isn't too good either. So many we need more like 1.5 vils making the docks.

4) The age times achieved with this strat are comparable to to traditional berry first then boat boom strat. Except that the berry first strat gives you 20-24 real vils in stone. The extra 8-12 vils makes a HUGE difference on the wood supply coming into tool and going beyond into bronze. And the wood chopping upgrade idea doesn't come early enough to help, especially since both strats have roughly the same tool time. So what's the advantage of the "minoan fastboom strat"?

5) I think that this strat should be renamed the "minoan medium-bronze-time boat boom strat". A 14-15 minute bronze time is not too bad - and you WILL have enough res to make quite a few impies relatively soon (but not 30-40 impies/compies!). But this strat does not get you a 12 minute bronze time. Not even close. And I think even with practice, a 13 minute bronze time will be *really* tough if not impossible.


I'm sorry wedsaz - I am trying to hard to vindicate your theories/strats in order to be fair to you (and to benefit personally from any possible new ideas). I think that trying your strat 9 times is a lot more than you will get from anyone here on this forum so I think that I'm being fairly generous. Using this strat (and with REVEAL MAP to boot - for God's sake!), I simply can't get a 12 minute bronze time and I honestly don't think anyone will.

I recommend once again that you exercise your strat and see for yourself.

I await your inevitable rebuttal ...


wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-18-01 02:33 AM ET (US)     29 / 33       
Dave:
Math, using the stats at mrfixitonline.com, doesn't add up anywhere near what you're telling me. I'll assume you're not lying, which I doubt you are.
 
I therefore see 3 possibilities, from least likely to most likely:
3. The wood gathering rate at mrfixit's are wrong.
2. There's some serious inefficiency in how you cut your wood, which you're not aware of.
1. The wood gathering rates changed due to one of the recent patches, and mrfixit's unit sheets haven't been updated.
 
All 3 possibilities would be interesting and worth finding out. I wish I could play and see for myself...
 
If you don't have your 500 food by 7:30, something is seriously wrong, don't bother going further.
 
In answer to the 5 problems you mentioned:
1. If you take 7 mins and substract the 3 mins needed to train 9 villies, that's a total of 4 minutes of idle time. That's normal for this strat. So don't worry, you were doing fine here.
2. Too many FBs is a relative term. It would be just enough if the wood was coming in at the right speed, less FBs wouldn't bring in enough food for that fast bronze and all those compies.
3. Quite right about not being able to use the docks sooner even if they were built faster, due to lack of wood. A 2nd builder would mean one less villie on wood too.
4. Now that's not normal.
5. If wood is as slow as it seems to have become, might as well save time and rename it "extinct ancient minoan fastboom strat".
 
My conclusion, until I can check this myself: I'll assume the new patch took the axes away from woodcutters and they now have to use karate chops. In other words, wood is now officially more precious than gold.

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BlitzkreigComin
Clubman
posted 01-18-01 11:56 AM ET (US)     30 / 33       
wedsaz:

Dave's numbers seem about right for your "fast-boom" strat. I tried it 8-10 times a couple months ago and never Bronzed under 14:00. That compounded with having a poorly balanced wood/food ratio I categorized the strat as useless.

Here are the numbers I have from my own tests that I say are very realistic to Zone play. They were all done in the Scenerio Editor.

Berries: 0.40 f/s
Shore Fish: 0.537 f/s
Fishing Boats: 0.354 f/s
Wood: 0.345 w/s
Gold and Stone: 0.396 g/s

These numbers are in Stone with obviously no upgrades.

More than these numbers, wedsaz, I have logged THOUSANDS of games on the Zone. Your numbers are nowhere near reality. You can think that all the good Zone players left and you could show up and accomplish these feats of yours but that isn't reality either. People that I play with have played this game on the Zone for two-three years and all of 'em remember the glory days.

Most "expert" Zone players will target a 39-42 villa Stone with an average 15:00 Bronze. Average Tool times are from 10:00 to 12:00. Bronze armies of 10+ are rarely massed before 16:00.

I rarely see small econs pay off. Yesterday I played AOE_Gs on a large Conti map. He is considered one of the best players in RoR. He picked Palmy and did 12 vills and was planning an early Tool attack. I was Shang, did 23 reals, boomed fbs during Tool upgrade to get a pop of 27 and was able to have an "easy" win in Tool. He gained very little advantage in time as his TC sat in Stone while mine was making vills. Very rarely do smaller econs win anymore on the Zone.

wedsaz I assume all of these strats you used were in a different era against very poor players. Zone players have given up pit starting on Medit because they sacrifice too many real vills and can't compete in Tool Age. What strat could your fast-boom defeat? Even inexperienced Zone players are gonna out boom you in Stone then beat you on the water in Tool leaving you NO FREAKING ECON. Please give your strat a rest until it can be proved. I wouldn't dare try it against anybody I know.

Dave, on the other hand, is logging a lot of games and sees that many players (including me) get greedy sometimes in their Stone Age boom and is trying to find a way to defeat them. He has come up with something that he can add to his strats that can compete.

One alternative for Dave is a good Tool attack. If you look at your target attack time around 12:30, a formattable Tool army could be busy by then. Tool attacks are a little easier to pull off because they don't require all of the circumstances of "great" shore fish and the strict micro-managing of wood and food early. But Dave already knows this and I'm glad he shared his strat with us.

Dave
Clubman
posted 01-18-01 12:23 PM ET (US)     31 / 33       
wedsaz:

> 2. There's some serious inefficiency in how you cut your wood, which you're not aware of.


Nice try.

peter
HG Alumnus
posted 01-18-01 12:42 PM ET (US)     32 / 33       
wedsaz:
Well, I seem to get abut the same results as Dave - so prolly your math or your stats are wrong.

Get a friends comp and try there

wedsaz
Clubman
posted 01-18-01 05:36 PM ET (US)     33 / 33       
Dave:
I meant no disrespect by that, it's simply a possibility that I was getting peak wood rates due to some trick or other that you (and peter, and blitz) don't know about. If that turns out to be it, I'll be happy to show you all how to do it when I can get online again.
 
Peter:
My math is fairly simple, I take mrfixit's rates (0.56w/sec) to add up how much wood the choppers are gathering by a given time (choppers*rate*60/min), and compare it to how much is needed for docks, FBs, houses. It adds up.
 
The stats are not mine, but from mrfixitonline.com, which I think it (or was?) a well-known site. It would be news if something as essential as the wood gathering rates turned out to have been completely wrong. It hasn't been updated for the patch however, and it's very possible that ES changed the wood rates without telling anybody, which is why I'm asking for wood rate tests.
 
If the tests don't match the results "in the field", then perhaps good optimization could be the key, and I should find out what exactly I'm doing to get such amazing results.
 
So I think we have to find out. Whatever the cause of the discrepancy, I think it'll be interesting.
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