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Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Shang vs. Phoe.
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Topic Subject:Shang vs. Phoe.
ROR_Kahn
Inactive
posted 03-23-99 06:48 PM ET (US)         
These 2 civs seem to be the top picks of all Zoners. Shang have low villager cost and they can advance quickly. The phoe on the other hand are not the fastest but they are much better in Iron. Who is the better?
AuthorReplies:
FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 03-23-99 10:50 PM ET (US)     1 / 16       
umm.. it really depends on the settings you play, what settings do you have in mind?
O_Captian
Inactive
posted 03-24-99 02:00 AM ET (US)     2 / 16       
Most cases and maps it is Shang. Only on Islands would I choose another civ, that being hittite.

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He who has the last peon standing, wins!

Ender
Guest
posted 03-24-99 06:34 AM ET (US)     3 / 16       
Phoenicia isn't much better than shang in iron. They are barely better. Shang gets better scythe chairots. Phoenicians have a huge drawback in iron, if the enemy gets helepolis the game is probably over for you, not always but usually this is the case. Shang who get helepolis and catapults don't have this drawback.
ROR_Kahn
Inactive
posted 03-24-99 07:23 AM ET (US)     4 / 16       
the shang dont have cats. they have stone throwers only. What do u think if the settings were:

def recources -- mediterranean map -- 1.5spd -- reveal -- 200pop -- conqest

Bolshi_Basci
Inactive
posted 03-24-99 08:39 AM ET (US)     5 / 16       
Kahn,
oops Shang do have cats mate. They also have heps. Unfortunately they lack ballistics and engineering but thats a good thing for game balancing. I prefer Shang to Phoe and the reason is the scythe chariots. Shang can counter Phoe ellies with either heps or priests. Then it comes down to SC vs SC and the Shang with all the upgrades wins easily.

The only exception is where the Phoe can use his large naval advantage effectively.

Bolshi_Basci
Inactive
posted 03-24-99 08:48 AM ET (US)     6 / 16       
Right with those settings I definitely prefer Shang. They are gonna be faster on default resources. Get the dock up / continuous vill production quicker and compete with the Phoe wood cutting through shear weight of numbers. The large pop limit also plays to Shang strength. A med map even one with rivers is not going to give the Phoe iron navy a large enough sphere of influence.
neilkaz
Clubman
posted 03-24-99 12:31 PM ET (US)     7 / 16       
Here is my "opinionated opinion" based upon improving my Shang boom start and play a bit last month. Shang is better than Phoe on any normal map size in def RM. The difference is greater than I thought a month ago. Shang handles poor/medoicre maps better than Phoe. Phoe can be "godly" given a great map w/fast food and close wood, but Shang would still out perform them.Shang also has non boom, faster attack options than Phoe !

1v1 isles Shang still takes Phoe, but it can be a good fight. Shang bronzes first and stronger. The phoe also at risk of an invasion. In bronze the ships are equal. Shang makes many more woodies and can usually take the seas in bronze. Phoe also is at risk from a fast iron w/ a horse archer blitz combined with FG's. However, if the Phoe survives to a decent iron.. ie safe on land with many remes.. the superior Phoe navy wins the game ! Phoe is 2nd on 1v1 isles... Mino is 3rd... Hitt can be nasty on 1v1 small isles if you have a great start, but normally they just get out tooled/out bronzed/out shipped !
Both Shang and Phoe have mediocre Irons. If great iron civs survive into mid iron in a 3v3 both Shang and Phoe can suffer badly !
The trick is too make sure that doesn't happen or if it does you have killed someone so at worst it is a 3v2 !
In 3v3 isles I usually don't pick Shang because there really is no way to prevent at least one enemy ironing with a good economy. That means I need better ships than range 9 galleys w/ 8 AP and FG's w/24 AP. In contrast, in a 1v1, my opponent is unlikely to arrive in iron in a healthy state on isles.... neilkaz ..

Cherub Sting
Clubman
posted 03-24-99 05:08 PM ET (US)     8 / 16       
Well, on continental map this one would have to go to shang. But on medit map, I think that if the phoe can keep with him in advancing through ages, stay equal in villager/boat count, and slowly win the naval battle, the phoe can win. Tool rushing on medit map is hard, because if you go for a really early tool you dont really have enough wood to play boat wars and keep the rush up...so tool rushing on medit is not as popular as booming.

Shang WILL advance faster. Shang will hang with phoenician on the land, considering they both recieve the same units with no bonuses. Shang early iron is much better than phoes early iron, imo. The phoe has to go for scythes early on, and play defense for a while, otherwise he runs the risk of being raided by horse archers. Shang ballistas and catapults, although without engineering, have ballistics...and its all they need. The ballistas can tear up elephants, and the cats can tear up elephants.

I would go for huge elephant/ele archer armies and throw in some scythes in case he makes priests, and make priests of your own. It will be very costly, but mixed armies is the ONLY chance a phoe has against any civ with ballistas.

2v2 cont map...my ideal team is phoe/shang for a double tool rush, or phoe/hittite for early and long game power. Phoenician will win the naval battle in most cases, considering the shang is splitting wood between large amounts of ballistas and cats and ships. The phoenician should make ST for sure, but dont overdo it...

Bolshi_Basci
Inactive
posted 03-24-99 07:32 PM ET (US)     9 / 16       
Hmmm,
I don't think Shang do get ballistics. Shall I tell you how I remember cos they don't get ballista towers.

Cherub Sting
Clubman
posted 03-24-99 07:36 PM ET (US)     10 / 16       
Doh, youre right. I admit, I am wrong

I dont know what I was thinking, I play shang enough of the time...mind slip?

Steve Ryan
Inactive
posted 03-24-99 07:55 PM ET (US)     11 / 16       
Shang in most case will win. Any map large or less except islands Shangs tool or early bronze rush will slaughter Phoes woodies. On a larger map a well walled Phoe with strategic bases has a good chance.

Water is the key, I recently lost to a Pho player who got control of the water on a huge med map. He was probably a better player than me but I was thumping him for a while.. except for leaving myself short of gold for the Scythe upgrade. I was winning in all departments. The huge food advantage he got from the Ocean and control of 10 tiles of land around it were decisive.

I admit that I am now scared to play Shang against Pho or even Minoa if a lot of water is concerned (on bigger than large maps). Im sure better players could still use Shang on the water.. but triremes and cat tris scare the *****out of my little galleys ! (Ive never got the hang of FGs)

Steve Ryan

ROR_Doink
Inactive
posted 03-24-99 08:30 PM ET (US)     12 / 16       
Just curios Ender, how do Shang have better Synthe Chariots than Phoe?
Rip_Tide_99
Inactive
posted 03-24-99 08:40 PM ET (US)     13 / 16       
I think I can answer that one.

Shang has better Scythes because it has more upgrades than Phoenician. Chain mail and metallurgy make all the difference when comparing Scythe vs. Scythe.

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I love pets 'cause they taste so darn good!

ROR_Kahn
Inactive
posted 03-24-99 09:58 PM ET (US)     14 / 16       
From the last times i have played i though that shang didnt have Cats. i thought they only had Stone Throwers. They dont have Heavy Cats though.

I still think the phoe are better

Spam
Clubman
posted 03-25-99 09:57 AM ET (US)     15 / 16       
IMHO Shang iron is better than Phoenician iron, at least when they are compared only to each other. Cats+helos with full scythes running around is a serious headache for Phoenie. Elephants will be converted by Shang's full priests. Of course, Phoenie will win the seawar, that may even things out a bit.

My 2 cents

Spam

Row_Master
Inactive
posted 03-25-99 11:22 AM ET (US)     16 / 16       
Phoen are better overall, especially in iron. Shang does not get any Gov Center Iron upgrades.

Build the priest, Phoen will have armored elephants. Armored elephants, single best unit in the game.

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