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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » What is the best defense for us rookies?
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Topic Subject:What is the best defense for us rookies?
ROR_Kahn
Inactive
posted 03-21-99 08:11 PM ET (US)         
What is the best defense for us rookies against the the some of the best players in the game. EXAMPLE: Neilkaz
AuthorReplies:
Breydel
Clubman
posted 03-21-99 08:51 PM ET (US)     1 / 28       
Haha, neil beat u that hard? Shame on you neil, bashing up newbies like that! Hehe, j/k.


Well the best thing to do is read the strategies at several websites and follow the discussings in the forums. I also recommend that you "look" how the real folks are playing, ask if they let you watch there games.

Good luck and welcome to Rome!!!

------------------

Breydel

"Of all Gaul, the Belgae are the bravest" -Julius Caesar, 58 B.C.

ROR_Kahn
Inactive
posted 03-21-99 08:55 PM ET (US)     2 / 28       
Im not so much as a newie. Its just Age gods like neil keep whoopin on me. I know neil pretty good from the zone. I read alot of stuff that he says on these discussions. Ill tell u. it takes me about 20 minutes to read one of his sentences.(ITS CALLED ENGLISH NEIL. WRITE IT!) but really i admire neils desire and ability to this game. Keep it up neil
Elijeh
Clubman
posted 03-21-99 09:00 PM ET (US)     3 / 28       
ROFL!

Neil an "age God" Bwahahahah....Man, ya know it aint that hard to defend against..oohhh wait, i'm not a rookie..sorry.

But for general defence: Wall and Tower.

Breydel
Clubman
posted 03-21-99 09:02 PM ET (US)     4 / 28       
Well then, ask neil if you may see him in action.

Jade_Dragonfly did that for me in AoE and I recently saw Desert_Fox in action.

One is never too expert to learn IMO .

------------------

Breydel

"Of all Gaul, the Belgae are the bravest" -Julius Caesar, 58 B.C.

ROR_Kahn
Inactive
posted 03-21-99 09:02 PM ET (US)     5 / 28       
I see. You are an Age God too? Its kinda hard when he tool rushes the hell out of you and then still manages to iron like a B****.
O_Captian
Inactive
posted 03-21-99 11:18 PM ET (US)     6 / 28       
Brey, whatever you do, don't play Jade in Backgammon, she is ruthless. LOL
FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 03-22-99 01:36 AM ET (US)     7 / 28       
Hill, towers, cats and archers.... something fast to counter attack would be good too If no hill then small path in between forests...

if wide open area then... find a hill.. i dont know... If you are worse then me then i would be glad to give you some pointers just find me on the zone

I never played Neilkaz... he is that good?

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 03-22-99 11:30 AM ET (US)     8 / 28       
Neil is good although my money is on Ender, Matty, Caffeine and oh....I like my chances
Scarab
Clubman
posted 03-22-99 11:47 AM ET (US)     9 / 28       
Hey Kahn,

It looks like everyone here is telling you to stay defensive. That could be like slitting your own throat against expereinced players. I've never played with or against Neilkaz so I can't give you any specific advice; but here's some general tips that might help:

(assuming default start)

1) as soon as the game starts press 'H' the 'CCCC'
2) build a house right away
3) SCOUT
it is soooooo critical to scout the area surrounding your tc as well as outlying areas.
4) build up a decent number of villy's (dont try to tool with the three you start with)
5) learn the hotkeys and use them (all of them)
6) group your units and some of your buildings (using CTRL and #1-9) especially your scout(s)
7) know the civ that you are playing (str's and weaknesses)
8) Know what the different maps are
9) Have a game plan and try to stick with it.
10) Don't be afraid to play outside of the rookie rooms (im not talking about playing in expert only games ect). You can learn alot playing with & against better players.

is ROR_Kahn your zone name? I'll look you up and play a couple with you sometime this week .

Bolshi_Basci
Inactive
posted 03-22-99 11:54 AM ET (US)     10 / 28       
I got to disagree with the basic theme running through this thread.
So, you are playing with someone better than you? How do you defend?
If you go all defensive you may last slightly longer but you are even more certain to ultimately lose.
This guy is better than you, his economy is going to grow faster than yours. The longer that continues the worse its going to be when the time comes for him to attack. Hit him as soon as you are able and hope you catch him by surprise. Probably you won't and it will all go pear-shaped, but its your best shot.
Wall and tower off, fine you may last 30 minutes , but then what are you going to do, wonder? Cos the enemy owns the rest of the map and all the resources on it.
Walling is what you do when you want to dictate when the action occurs and avoid being caught by a rush. It's the greatest artform in ROR and my biggest weakness. But watch out for the defensive mindset.
Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 03-22-99 12:03 PM ET (US)     11 / 28       
The best defence is to get good tooling/bronzing/ironing times with a good economy... This is the basics of AoE. If you can do that well, then you can learn some tactics.. Don't even hope to defend against a good player if you still have to improve this... there is not much you can do... well walling in might buy you some time... might...

Phil

Jehu
Inactive
posted 03-22-99 12:19 PM ET (US)     12 / 28       
In 1v1s, wall what you can for a delay, but by all means spread out. This will make it hard for the opponent to deal you a devestating blow with a tool or early bronze attack. Spreading out early and continuing to do so is very important in 1v1s IMHO.

There's more of course but I'll let others add. Maybe Neilkaz will even pop in and tell you how to beat him.

Jehu

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 03-22-99 12:34 PM ET (US)     13 / 28       
You guys might all be wondering why I haven't replied to this or the other thread directed at me. It was because I was busy all weekend playing my "real game" .. and that is Backgammon. I won my 2nd major US BG tournament of the year, the Midwest Championships this weekend. Feel free to check on me in Backgammon at http://homepage.interaccess.com/~chipoint and you can read about a game where I may actually be the best in the country or world.

As for ROR (I don't play AOE) I am NOT close to the best in the country/world or on this thread. On this thread I have no doubt that Ender is better than me out of the guys that post here all the time. Emowilli.. where did he go ? is extremely good. Guys that occasionally post here that are World Class..ie (top 10 ) and CLEARLY better than me or any one else that post here all the time are Staffa, Methos, and Blank. There are at least 10 other guys at GX and in the WW room, where I will be alot more, that are in the same league with the 3 gods mentioned here ! Unless, I get a civ I am good at combined with a good starting spot, I would be hard pressed to not get blown off the map in a team game with the very best players.

NoSoup you are quite good and their is no denying it. I have played with a guy in Q a few games who say he was Caffine and he is very good. However, we are all in the same league and that is clearly at least one level below the best.

My game style is economic and it has to be since I have very little RTS fighting experience other than playing mutiplayer AOE/ROR. In other words my tactics/fighting ability is just average. That is far below the best of the best.

As for the economics of managing the first 15 minutes of a typical 3v3 watery map ROR default start game, I truly am very good.
I don't dick around if I see fast food and have no wood problems. I simply get down and pull off a nice 27 vil/18 boat 14 flat bronze with a random slow civ at 1.0 speed. What that can do to guys who do 40 total v&b in 15:30 on the same settings can be very ugly indeed if I am able to have my army go after them ASAP after I bronzed. How do I go so big/fast with a lousy civ ? I have a lot of practice doing it ! If I see what I need quickly, I know exactly what to so to pull off a nice fast boat boom bronze and have a great economy when I get there , too, Why ?? Well.. because it is easy to practice vs the computer ! It is also easier at 1.0 speed to do the fine micromanagement necessary to along the boom to expand exponentially as it blossems. To translate that into English.. I get food a bit faster so I have no/less delay making peons.. they chop wood a little better.. my dock(s) go up a little sooner.. etc etc.. and then I have a bigger and better and faster boom by 7-9 leading to a fast and large bronze. The little things early, really pay dividends along the way, and the interest from those dividends compounds !

I have weaknesses. 1) Tactics 2) My tool fighing is OK, but could be better. 3) My defensive play is often inadequate 4) I often can't support weaker/less skilled allies as well as the truly great players can. 5) I still make starting mistakes on bad maps that lead to slower/risky starts which in turn means that I get drilled hard sometimes. 6) I often don't bounce back effectively enough from an early beating.
7) When I am very busy fighting my economy and often my entire game sometimes slips a bit from 15-25. 8) By mid/late iron my fighting ability is often not as good as I'd like it to be. 9) I often don't spread out enough after bronzing. 10) I sometimes forget to make chariots from my stable(s).

I am working on improving my play in all areas of ROR in hopes off losing less games do to my weaknesses. I suggest all of you do the same. As for Kahn and a few others posting here.. I don't recall playing with you in 2 or 3 months. I am much better now than then. It sounds like some of you may have been in games with me under smurf names. Perhaps, some of you were in on the receiving end of a great start/fast attack by me and watched me overwhelm 2 out of 3 enemies by 17. Perhaps, some of you were in the game when I was tooled hard by one enemy and double bronze rushed by the other two, while my 2 allies managed to 17/22 bronzes with no military action.

In closing, I'd like to say 2 things.

1) Thx to all of you here and at GX who have helped me improve my play to a level that is at least competant. With the continued sharing of our collective knowledge lets hope that some of us may actually reach the top level of play in ROR. I am surely going to try.

2) I have the balls to use my real name to play on the zone 98% of the time. I suggest that some of you do the same. One of you says you have tried to get a game with me for 3 months ! However, I don't recall ever seeing your name you post with here on the zone. Maybe I bailed out of your game room a few times. I don't stick around if I think I am being set up. I.E. three good players vs me, when those three know that my teamates will have trouble bronzing 20 peons by 17.
When it is clear that I was set up.. expect me to leave the game fast !! Those desiring to play set teams vs me/others please allow me/us to come to the battle with our own set teams. When I am on a set team.. that fact is noted in the settings and all can play or leave as they wish. Sometimes I am playing with semi/rookie friends too.

Thx for all the compliments... I work hard at ROR ... neilkaz

[This message has been edited by neilkaz (edited 03-22-99).]

[This message has been edited by neilkaz (edited 03-25-99).]

Bolshi_Basci
Inactive
posted 03-22-99 02:06 PM ET (US)     14 / 28       
Neilkaz,
I acknowledge that last paragraph and I accept your point. There is a good reason why I separate posting names from playing names but I am not getting into that. I actually thought my post was fairly compimentary, but clearly not enough. One day my smurf will get to play you and if you are a worthy of the 2nd tier status you ascribe to yourself I promise to post something to that effect.
Caffeine is a great player, certainly on a par with Emowilli. He has the respect of many people who I in turn respect, if you have achieved this level then I salute you. There have been many forummers who picked up this game much faster than I, FK and Breydel to name two (not better players mind you just faster learners ). Mind you its easier now, there is much better information available and its easier if you haven't had time to pick up bad habits .
I think you will acknowledge that you spend a lot of time resident in Quirinal but afk? Either that or you are one busy zmer.
[Anyway my point was really that it takes a very experienced player to assign greatness. It's easy to impress a newbie.]

Neilkaz I'm trying to add a little perspective, not to belittle you. We are actually similar players and I agree with the stances you have taken and broadly with the advice you dispatch. What percentage of maps (I'm assuming we must be talking MED /CONT / NARROWS here) would allow a 45 peon (27 vill + 18 boat) 14:00 slow civ bronze? Maybe we have a substitute for the how fast can you bronze question? For me personally the answer is probably about 5% assuming 1.0 speed and a clear head. And you?

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 03-22-99 02:16 PM ET (US)     15 / 28       
Before we get into a discussion about my bronze time is bigger than yours...oops I mean faster, bronze time is highly overrated. My average bronze is around 17 mins and I just don't ever lose games during min. 14-17. I tool rush 80% of my games and boom the rest. Bronze times are overrated, if you don't think so, pop on the zone and check matty's bronze times.
neilkaz
Clubman
posted 03-22-99 02:32 PM ET (US)     16 / 28       
I'd have to say that in 15-20% of cont/med narrows maps I can do that start. The key is that you must find berries fast and get started on peon w/ a minimum of delay ! Sure it is nice to have a wood/fish sweet spot.. but so often you don't have one. On giga med the sea is often miles away and berries are around a forest. Get one of those and you are screwed for times. If I find berries fast on cont I just put 6 on berries ASAP and it vil 8 can be started w/no delay it is not that hard to put the rest on wood and get a wood pit, then get 2-4 docks cranking while hitting a 2nd land based food source at the last minute to get a low/ mid 11's tool followed by an immediate bronze jump ! I don't explore the coast first on cont when I see berries and some wood fast. I see no reason too waste valuable starting time. I know the water is at the edge and as soon as my wood pit is up I can then send a peon or two to the water to put up 2-4 docks in sucession near fish.
My best ever in a game was a 13:30/44 total w/Greece on cont starting with SF and strags. It was truly a 9 1/2 outta 10 spot and I was deep in the pocket.
... let's play a few games.. you'll see me get some good/great starts .. and then you'll see that I am only so-so at handling the rest of the game just like I said !

I haven't touched this game in 3 days.. so I am off to practice some starts and I totally agree that you weren't belittling me ! It is easy to impress less experienced players if you happen to catch a great spot and handle it well and have one of them dead by 17 and cruise to a 21 min iron while attacking a 2nd enemy. That really is nothing impressive, and I have been on the receiving end of that too... neilkaz ..

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 03-22-99 02:46 PM ET (US)     17 / 28       
Again I agree as I always have that there is so much more to this game than bronzing fast !!

I am simply overwhelmed after returning here from 3 days of backgammon to see the number of posts, mostly complimentary, directed towards me !! Guys, want to know what I and my strengths/weaknesses so I tell them as best as I can.

As for matty's bronze times.. isn't he playing 1v1 ? I suck at 1v1 where I am sure I over boom. 1v1's sometimes feature so much tool fighting that no one can bronze.

NoSoup.. I'd be greatful if you could show me how to tool rush as HARD as you do and then bronze in 17 !! As we have experienced tool rushing in a 3v3 is double edged. If it doesn't really hurt someone or even if it does... you may suffer the wrath of a bronzed enemy's counter attack. Clearly if I am doing a 14/45 w/ a slow civ I am almost certainly at home "sim-citying" to do that. I accept the consequences of your tool rush hitting me ( if it does) to produce as it usually does the type of fast/strong economy that I feel ( maybe I am totally wrong) I need to allow me to fight in bronze/iron against players who's tactics/unit control/unit mix are better than mine. That is why I post threads here asking for help using Phoe in iron etc... neilkaz ...

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 03-22-99 02:54 PM ET (US)     18 / 28       
Neil,

I guess I should re-post my slinger rush guide. Under that guide my best bronze with a non-fast civ is 16 but I have been known to take as much as 21 mins if I build upwards of 20 slingers instead of 10-12. I am not a boomer like ender or Death leopard but usually hold my own against these players because I make them play my ugly, scrambling, tool rush game which I am pretty good at because I have practiced. In team games I will always tell my teammates where I am rushing so that they can follow up with bronze units. In 90% of the games I tool rush, I get the TC and force relocation. This includes games against emo, sting, blank and matty. Of course I have had them come back and win a decent portion of the time but i give myself a chance. I see no honor in getting waxed in bronze by enders 80 peon phonie iron where the scythes show up at min. 23.

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 03-22-99 03:04 PM ET (US)     19 / 28       
OK rookies... you can see one key point here and that is PRACTICE !!

NoSoup4U's slinger rushes are nasty because he PRACTICES them.

neilkaz gets good starts because he PRACTICES them.

Ender can have an 80 peon Phoe iron w/scythes in 23 because he PRACTICES them.

I am off to PRACTICE ... and await all the flames my big mouth is going to get me !!.. neilkaz ..

ROR_Kahn
Inactive
posted 03-22-99 03:37 PM ET (US)     20 / 28       
Thanx for the help guys. Feel free to anytime post more replies. Oh, and neil. You like to type eh? Most messages i read of yours are fricken huge
neilkaz
Clubman
posted 03-22-99 03:39 PM ET (US)     21 / 28       
Just trying to help my friends like you Kahn !!
ROR_Kahn
Inactive
posted 03-22-99 03:55 PM ET (US)     22 / 28       
Hey neil. i never see u on the zone anymore. i wanna play u sometime again. get on. or tell me when u are usually on
FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 03-22-99 04:37 PM ET (US)     23 / 28       
Grrrrrr... you guys are forgetting STALlN!! He is one of the best players IMO. Almost all of Shaitan now play EverQuest, and they are getting out of RoR, so people like Methos and Dustyn only play maybe 1 game a week...

And neilkaz is right, practice!

Oh and BTW, STALlN has beaten Matty and all of the other finalists in that big ROR tourney, he beat Methos in a game that i was watching.

[This message has been edited by FanatiC KaBaN (edited 03-22-99).]

Bolshi_Basci
Inactive
posted 03-22-99 04:39 PM ET (US)     24 / 28       
Straight bronze times over-rated yes of course they are. Both the quickish power bronzes of Neilkaz and the reasonable bronzes following devastating tool rushes of NoSoup are testament to that. I merely meant that how fast can you do a 45 peon bronze was probably a better judge of skill than neat bronzing in ROR, I could equally well have asked how many tool units can you hit me with at 8 minutes?
I have long since toned down my bronze time to accomodate some tool army and also to ensure I have enough gold to stop that tool army if I get tooled on the way to bronze and can't readily mine if I get there. And thats a tip from Methos.

I'll be looking out for you Neilkaz, but I want to drop into the game all casual like to maintain my anonymity .

Breydel
Clubman
posted 03-22-99 06:35 PM ET (US)     25 / 28       
Very nice posts all.

Thanks for the nice comment earlier Bolshi. Now you are really making me curious. Do I know you too? A simple yes or no would be quite satisfying .

About that bronze time arguing here. I also believe Bronze time is irrelevant, it is what you Bronze with that is important IMO. Why would you bother a 0:13:00 bronze time if you could hardly get 2 camels out or even couldn't get the wheel upgrade? And if you haven't scouted and didn't wall


err, this 19 year old girl started chatting w me (*blush*) I'll finish this later

------------------

Breydel

"Of all Gaul, the Belgae are the bravest" -Julius Caesar, 58 B.C.

O_Captian
Inactive
posted 03-22-99 06:49 PM ET (US)     26 / 28       
LOL, hahaha......good luck Brey!

------------------
He who has the last peon standing, wins!

Bolshi_Basci
Inactive
posted 03-23-99 05:10 AM ET (US)     27 / 28       
Well Brey,
I wouldn't post a message like that if I hadn't been following your progress would I?

Ironically I had two very good games last night in one game I fulfilled the Neilkaz criteria, admittedly with Minoan. In another I had a blistering Phoe game and hit 45 pop before hitting the tool transition button at 9 mins. At which point I just queued a few boats and wound down the boom to get some gold and be ready to pump scout ships.

kurtiebird
Inactive
posted 03-26-99 03:24 AM ET (US)     28 / 28       
Based on my experience tonight (just got my rear end whupped ), I can offer a bit of advice against expert players:


  • Never play 2.0 speed with them

  • Don't team up with other rookies against them

  • When fleeing from one expert, be careful not to run into his ally's town

  • Wall early. When his 20 minute iron units come to attack, you can still get away

  • Build a "batmobile" early on

  • Don't play against them; play me to boost your confidence

Oh well, enough of this, it's time for bed.

------------------
Kurtiebird
kcochran@kc.net

[This message has been edited by kurtiebird (edited 03-26-99).]

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