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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Should info on how to cheat be posted?
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Topic Subject:Should info on how to cheat be posted?
Fortunate Son
Inactive
posted 02-19-99 03:22 PM ET (US)         
A post on another thread prompted me to ask this question: Should information about cheating (eg nuking, rating scams, etc.) be censored from the forum? I would say two things: First, I have had a number of inappropriate and unethical (I'm using the most polite word I can think of) things done to me in zone games, but I'm afraid to post questions about them on the forum because it might lead to more people doing them. Second, I think there is a real question about whether it is better to have information about methods of cheating readily available so that all are aware of the possible methods and can help develop ways of responding or whether it is better to prevent information from getting out there. I realize this gets into issues of free speech and other political principles...What I am most interested in is attitudes concerning the general effect either option---censoring or spreading the word---would have on zone game and what other forumers think the policy should be on the posting of info on how to cheat. Whaddya think?
ps---If this has been covered in depth in earlier threads, I apologize. I've only been reading the forum for a few weeks.

------------------

[This message has been edited by Fortunate Son (edited 02-19-99).]

AuthorReplies:
Scarab
Clubman
posted 02-19-99 03:38 PM ET (US)     1 / 20       
Fontunate Son, I agree with you about players who drop out of a match because they don't want to affect their rank, or they're just being a (not so polite here, sorry) jack***. I haven't had the time to play in the zone,yet, but I think that most of the ager's feel the same way.

As far as posting different methods of cheating, I think that would be a huge mistake. Giving codes for 'Photon Man' or 'Big Daddy' are fine for single player (i'm pretty sure you can block the use of those codes in multi player), but showing everyone how to nuke, cheat or whatever you want to call it is like teaching everyone how to break into a house. Getting the information out in the open has it's points, but I believe that a lot of headaches would be caused if more people aquirred the knowledge on how to ruin a really fun game.

You caught me soapboxing a little, sorry.


Staffa
Inactive
posted 02-19-99 03:54 PM ET (US)     2 / 20       
Depends on the cheat/bug

Some cheats should be given to everyone simply because by doing so the ability to cheat via that method is destroyed. Such as telling everyone how to build multiple town centers in stone/tool, if everyone knows this people will be alot less likely to play high resource nomad games against opponants they dont know. Thus this method of cheating losses 90% of its effectiveness.

Nuking on the other hand would not be lessened by informing people on how to do it, though I could for instance, inform people how to protect against it, if your curious goto
http://www.megsinet.net/~helicon/computer.htm

But how too nuke, lets keep that as secret as possible, though for your information, 99% of game drops are not nukes, they are just the other person disconnecting via some method, a nuke is when your computer freezes and then crashes generaly with a blue screen reporting a GPF. Also, just because your computer freezes, doesnt mean you have been nuked either.

Anyway, depends on the bug, the wood bug from back before the last aoe patch should and was for the most part kept silent, the bug was very difficult to prevent, or notice if it was being used, and very powerfull.

Chanchito
Inactive
posted 02-19-99 04:17 PM ET (US)     3 / 20       
I would like to see what methods there are of cheating, so that I could prevent them from bing used. I never cheat, but if there is a cheat and a way to prevent it, I would think that it is in the public interest to spread the word.

[This message has been edited by Chanchito (edited 02-19-99).]

Scarab
Clubman
posted 02-19-99 04:27 PM ET (US)     4 / 20       
The key is learning and teaching the way to prevent the cheat. Some of the cheats out there might be really hard to defeat.

It boils down to a Knowing vs. Preventing battle. Knowing about a cheat isn't going to really help you if it's used on you. Sure you can spread the word that player "******" used a certain cheat on you, maybe they would get banned from the zone. As long as the program is written with ones and zeros, someone is going to find a way to manipulate it. That also means that there will be another someone to write a patch to counter the cheat.


I have no problem with identifying the cheats. I just think that you'd be tap dancing on a minefield by showing how to cheat

[This message has been edited by Scarab (edited 02-19-99).]

Giant
Inactive
posted 02-19-99 04:53 PM ET (US)     5 / 20       
What was/is the wood bug? If it's been cleared up, there should be no problem telling me, right?
O_Captian
Inactive
posted 02-19-99 05:40 PM ET (US)     6 / 20       
Well I look it at this way, there are awareness discussions on cheating, and there are how to discussions. I don't think that there should be censorship, however, when some idiot posts a how to cheat posting, he should be flamed hard.

We as a body of posters and readers should not tolerate this. Cheating is taking an unfair advantage over others, and that is where the line is. We all are seeking an advantage over others, or we wouldn't post or participate in this forum. But, the advantages we seek are strats or processes anyone can do.

So tell people about cheats, but don't go into the nitty gritty about it. Giant, the wood bug was a bug that took advantage of lag to get extra resources (not just wood, but stone and gold too). It is no longer available thru the 1.0b patch for AOE.

ElectroGrav
Inactive
posted 02-20-99 12:22 PM ET (US)     7 / 20       
If it is a game specific cheat, by all means it should be posted. For Internet related attacks, it is not as important to post details.

The Wood Bug is a classic example. Cheating was wide spread with this bug. For those of us who didn't know the cheat was being used, it appeared that we were just being outplayed.

Once information was posted about the Wood Bug, patterns about being 'outplayed' became obvious. That made it easier to avoid playing with the people that seemed to cheat. Without this information, there would have been little reason to continue playing AoE. If strategy, tactics, and skill had nothing to do with winning, why play?

Funny thing though, the day the Wood Bug was fixed, most of the 'experts' of the day turned out to be very average players. In one day, I went from losing up to 80% of my games to winning closer to 90% of them. Turned out that there were surprisingly few 'expert' players after all. I'm still amazed by those that believe to this day they are great players due to their accomplishments using a cheat. (Yes, we keep detailed lists.)

Tenaciti
Clubman
posted 02-20-99 04:55 PM ET (US)     8 / 20       

HHHmmm the wood bug was already patched when I started to play AoE. The only new thing I know about it the 2 TC's before bronze. This is new this last month and seems to give a big advantage. I have not tried it but many whos opinions I pay attention to say it works. So here it is. You must have the wood to make 2 TC's. If nomad that means med/hi resourses start. If the game is a little laggy it works better. Use your hot keys quickly to make 2 TC's. I have read that people are also deleting their TC (or it's destroyed by enemy) in stone or tool, then just make 2. It does cost the wood, yet it is not fair, because the playing field is not the same for everyone. A second thing that I would feel so bad to do, yet seems commonly done is to "scann" a revealed map with a building foundation for the enemy buildings. Whereever the enemy buildings are will have a red glow. This is a bad cheat, costs NOTHING in resourses and saves on scouting. I remember being told that"scanning is the major downside of reveal map" I post it here because I would want to know these things, and now you do
Staffa
Inactive
posted 02-22-99 08:05 AM ET (US)     9 / 20       
The ancient wood bug. Someone asked what it was, and herein lies the explanation.

Note: This bug was patched months ago, thankfully.


When deleting the foundations to buildings you started, you would get half the wood back that you invested. During games iwth any amount of lag, including all internet games, you could succesfully delete the foundation more then once by quickly hitting delete numerous times.

Well, if you succesfully hit delete 20 times before your opponants computers realizes it was deleted, then you would get half your wood back 20 times, resulting in a huge net gain. This also work for towers and for wonderss.

Essentialy it gave you unlimited supplies of wood and stone, against your average cheater the way of identify the use of the bug was simply they cut down very little, or even no trees, and built hundreds of towers while leaving all the stone piles in their area alone. More intelligent cheaters would naturaly build 50 peons and mine wood and stone pointless build 5000 chariots and flood you, they would still have cut down quite abit of wood, not nearly enough to make up for what they used, but hard to tell the difference.

Ive only seen someone multi delete a wonder once, its a dead giveaway as when you see
BLAHBLAH has started a wonder
wonder destroyed

over and over again, its kinda odvious

The most famous case of cheating I know was IBG, who was a rather highly respected player back then who when a game ended early due to a drop was caught at about 2 minutes with about 10 building foundations remains in his home town.

On a personal note I learned of the bug about 2 weeks before it was patched, and I used it once in a game where I was sure my opponant was using it. As it happened, I was wrong, he wasnt using it, but I still dont feel bad about it.

The bastard had enabled cheats, tool rush me at 5 minutes with 10 tool archers and 10 axers, bronze rushed me at 9 minutes with chariots, and ironed at 14. Damn thing is that the use of the wood bug almost made it a fair game. Anyway, when the photon men hit the streets, the game changed quite abit.

Cherub Desert R
Clubman
posted 02-22-99 09:28 AM ET (US)     10 / 20       
One (Ok,mabey 30)words for ya sting that could have won that game.Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy, Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy,Bigdaddy.
Scarab
Clubman
posted 02-22-99 10:42 AM ET (US)     11 / 20       
A couple of well placed "Hoyo's" would turn them into a junkyard!
Potejon
Clubman
posted 02-22-99 11:30 AM ET (US)     12 / 20       
I had a guy nuking me yesterday, while I was playing, luckily it was not one of the guys I was playing with so it is kinda off subject. Luckily I had nukenabber on dunno why, maybe cus I have had a lot of netbus intrusions lately, I got a prog called netbuster(surf.to/netbuster) which fools the attacker. Anyway I got a whois and a tracerout on the nuker, dunno how to use the info though.
Nineveh that was why I was lagging those times.

To the question, never post info on how to cheat never. There are many who just loves to exploit cheats and bugs, dunno why cus it is no fun when you cheat.
Now if you are a cheater why not just play SC lots of bugs there.
But info on preventing post it!

------------------

Nineveh
Inactive
posted 02-22-99 12:03 PM ET (US)     13 / 20       
Are sure that lag didn't have anything to do with those dancing Hittite War Galleys? Those yam ships were very, very confused

Ha! I'm assuming theres something cool you can do with a nukers IP address but I have no idea what that is. Other than nuke the nuker, obviously.

Staffa
Inactive
posted 02-22-99 12:59 PM ET (US)     14 / 20       
email the log that nukenabber created to the sysop of the offenders site, and the sysop may very well the account
Elijeh
Clubman
posted 02-22-99 05:41 PM ET (US)     15 / 20       
I do not believe that the TC bug is a "cheat". Why? well as someone who has done this in more than 20+ games, i'll tell you, your Peon production is only fastw hen the game starts and you can spend enough food out of both TCs. After the Initial res is gone, your pretty much *****outta luck. Why? Well your Peon flow will be around 20-30 seconds behind the opponent, maybe more, and sinc eyour not using both buildings simultaneous your not gettin the benefit. However the advantage is that your get to Tool while still making Peons. big advantage there. However if someone Plays Nomad Medium/high Res, might as well be prepared for a double TC. I think that this "cheat" isn't that big a deal. and i wonde rif UAT3 will allow it? if they do it'll save alot of hassle, knowing that players can do this and its legal, which it is. look at it this way, your shelling out 400 Res and at least 20-30 seconds of time before your first TC pops up. And it sas big a risk as any other thing.

The Wood bug- I HATE this. its cheap. this is a "bug/cheat" because its a not easy to do and well, it allows un heard of amounts of Res to be generated. doing this in Stone age 20 times(less really) willgenerate gross amount sof resources to fast. this gives an extreme advantage for very little risk.

O_Captian
Inactive
posted 02-22-99 06:41 PM ET (US)     16 / 20       
Elijah, I have been impressed w/ most of your post of late, however I can't believe this one. I love to players who, well I will say for diplomatic purposes, take advantage of bugs, since when they are gone, so are your skills.

I didn't know of the wood bug till too late and refused to play with it, except for a few games to see if it worked, then it lost its fun. However, when the 1.0b patch came out, man did my game soar becaused I was pushed to beat players that cheated.

So I prefer to build my skills on principles of a solid foundation, not on bugs of the program that can be rendered useless by patches. Please continue to warp your game, as you get dependent on bugs, I'll be getting better since I will have to elevate my game to beat your bugging.

ElectroGrav
Inactive
posted 02-22-99 06:47 PM ET (US)     17 / 20       
Just because someone hasn't worked out a viable strategy for using a cheat, does not make it any less of a cheat. In the hands of a competent player, the ability to make multiple Town Centers in stone is an enourmous tactical advantage. It is in no way limited to medium and high resource starts, either.

In the tournament, would you recommend a restart if the lag isn't bad enough for both players to get multiple TCs? Should everyone be limited to 2 TCs, or as many as you are good enough to make? Should whoever has a utility to help make multiple TCs really be the winner? Will the one who can make the lag come and go on cue the best be the winner?

I thought the point of playing a tournament is about playing the game, not who can best exploit its bugs.

Potejon
Clubman
posted 02-22-99 07:38 PM ET (US)     18 / 20       
Nineveh: Those Galleys were annoying but don't think that I will ever quit I was rebuilding after you got my island You were iron but I like to put up a fight.

I can show you the log with modified Ip of course
Here it is:
[02/21/1999 23:54:17.200 GMT+0100]Report Generated for jerusalem.netpdx.com (216.99.189.218)
TraceRoute:
1 oke1-as36.dax.net (193.216.35.36)
2 oke1-core2.dax.net (193.216.35.101)
3 bck1-core.pos0-3.swip.net (130.244.192.217)
4 kst1-core.pos0-1.swip.net (130.244.192.45)
5 stb2-core.pos0-0.swip.net (130.244.194.150)
6 stb1-core.pos1-1.swip.net (130.244.193.77)
7 mlm2-core.pos0-2.swip.net (130.244.194.184)
8 icm-tl2-11-H6-0-E3.icp.net (188.67.142.129)
9 198.67.142.185 (198.67.142.185)
10 icm-bb3-pen-0-0-0.icp.net (188.67.133.54)
11 icm-dc-2-H1-0-T3.icp.net (188.67.142.161)
12 192.157.65.122 (198.157.65.122)
13 p3-0.vienna1-nbr3.bbnplanet.net (4.0.1.98)
14 p3-1.paloalto-nbr2.bbnplanet.net (4.0.3.188)
15 p9-0-0.paloalto-br1.bbnplanet.net (4.0.1.821)
16 s0-1-0.bvtnor1-cr1.bbnplanet.net (4.0.5.183)
17 h10-1.aracnet.bbnplanet.net (8.1.115.134)
18 adsl-gw1.aracnet.com (208.159.88.53)
19 jerusalem.netpdx.com (296.99.199.218)
TraceRoute Complete.

Finger:
Finger Timed Out.

Finger:
Finger Timed Out.

Whois:

Registrant:
Imad Sousou (NETPDX-DOM)
6663 SW Beaverton Hillsdale Hwy #213
Portland, OR 97225
US

Domain Name: NETPDX.COM

Administrative Contact:
Sousou, Imad (IS753) imad@ARACNET.COM
579-0667
Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Aracnet NOC (AN44-ORG) noc@ARACNET.COM
(503) 626-7696
Fax- (503) 626-8675
Billing Contact:
Sousou, Imad (IS753) imad@ARACNET.COM
579-0667

Record last updated on 14-Apr-98.
Database last updated on 20-Feb-99 07:16:06 EST.

Domain servers in listed order:

NS.ARACNET.COM205.159.88.1
NS.ZOCALO.NET157.22.1.1


The InterNIC Registration Services database contains ONLY
non-military and non-US Government Domains and contacts.
Other associated whois servers:
American Registry for Internet Numbers - whois.arin.net
European IP Address Allocations - whois.ripe.net
Asia Pacific IP Address Allocations - whois.apnic.net
US Military - whois.nic.mil
US Government - whois.nic.gov
Whois Complete.

Staffa:
Will do mail the webmaster hope he is a nice guy Done.....

Angel Archaic
Clubman
posted 02-22-99 08:08 PM ET (US)     19 / 20       
I, myself, played a few games with the resource bugs. These games, tho, were with people I knew where we had said that it was ok (just for fun...) and one or two games on the zone where the title had said "Bugs Allowed". I did not, though, base my playing on the bugs, because I did not feel good about joining games and using bugs against people that did not approve of the use of them in their game. The resource bugs were fun the first few times, but after that I found it to be quite boring and tasteless, as all players had infinite resources (with the exception of food, tho i hear there is/was a food bug too!) and it took forever to win.

My view on cheating with or without the use of any bugs (with the exception of nuking)? Well, I think it's O.K. if all players are aware that the bugs are being used & they all agree to allowing it, and everyone playing in that game has the ability to use the cheats/bugs.

Just my 3 cents.

Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 02-23-99 01:45 AM ET (US)     20 / 20       
I would like to skip the 19 previous post and tell what I think of Fortunate Son's question.

"Should information about cheating (eg nuking, rating scams, etc.) be censored from the forum?"

This question reminds me some situation mankind faced in history. Some cities, countries, regions, kingdoms faced a despotic government where the ruler was maintaining a kind of propaganda to keep controling people.

Ignorance always killed and put the "dumber" at disadvantage in history.
These forums are here to inform people, let them discuss point of views, collect informations, get new strategies, make cyber friends, be cocky, be an ass hole or simply for pure fun. We are in an era of telecommunication, an era of global village (Marshall McLuhan), it is impossible(extremely hard) to keep information secret. If somebody wants to know how to nuke, he will find what he's looking for on the net. Why would you censore cheating information on this forum when anybody can find what theses techniques on the web? My opinion is, censoring cheating methods would just keep most of us ignorant about them. I do not believe publishing them would lead to an increase in cheaters on the zone, else I could accuse most forumers of being cheaters.

I did inform another forumer on a cheating method in the other thread. He wanted to know why he was getting so many disconnections in 1v1 rated games. Of course, somebody thought I was promoting it... but now more people know what's happening in these 1v1 rated games and will probably avoid them now... Stick to 3+ players games, the disconnector will be the one to get an incomplete and you will not loose point since the game will continue with the other player(s)...

Do what you want, think what you want, tell what you feel like... but ignorance is a bad thing for the curious and honest mind... In my not so humble opinion

Phil

[This message has been edited by Phil_The_Great (edited 02-23-99).]

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