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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Assyrian Bronze powerhouse in RoR?
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Topic Subject:Assyrian Bronze powerhouse in RoR?
Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 02-28-99 01:05 PM ET (US)         
Hi guys,
I do not post very often in the RoR forum he!? Well, I am now playing more RoR than AoE!! So, I came to a conclusion regarding Assy in RoR and I would like to know if you agree with me or not and why.

Everybody know Assy were the most powerfull AoE civ (equal with Yammy) in bronze. But what happenned to them in RoR?

Tool age
Assy do not get the slingers. I believe they can still perform a tool rush but it's gonna be either an axemen/clubmen rush or a scout rush right? An archer rush would fail(very likely) because of the ennemy's slingers. What if Assy get tool rushed. Again, I believe they could counter with clubmen and handle most rushes.
I might be wrong though... "But Phil, what's your point" you're gonna ask me right?

Bronze age
Assy gets the Camel rider. This important fact keep Assy at the top of the list for the most powerfull civ in bronze, IMO. The other new bronze techno is logistic, do I care? not really. I believe logistic to be helpfull when to pop limit is reached and when your economy is very strong, when you do not know what to do with all your ressources... which is never the case in bronze... right (if it happen, why don't you jump to iron?)?

Iron age
This is where Assy suffers the most... BUT! there is a but! Yep, Assy do not get the Armored Elephant neither the Scithe Chariot. This is very bad because they are now weaker than they were in AoE, in comparison to the other civs. However, to upgrade to these new powerfull units require lots of ressources. A good player will iron in about 27-35 minutes. He will obviously produce iron age units as soon as he enter iron to gain the upper hand in the combats he's actually struggling to win. Therefore, these new upgrades (Scithes and AE) will be researched at about 35-50 minutes. This means, Assy is still a good civ in early iron. They will proceed with their classic combo of HAs/Cats and still put up a good fight. Their situation is degenarating after early iron, when the opponents are getting super units and super upgrades.

Please, do not tell me you're gonna iron jump and be iron at 20-23. You know my large bronze army is gonna kill your non-existant iron army and wipe you of the map... thank you...

Here's my point
Assy's weakness in mid and late-iron means you still give me 45 minutes to kick your ass with them!!

I do not see a lot of Assy players anymore in RoR and I believe, from what I see, they are underrated just because of the late game stages weakness. 45 minutes is still way more than what I need to destroy 1 player or to be destroyed...

Phil

[This message has been edited by Phil_The_Great (edited 02-28-99).]

AuthorReplies:
Elijeh
Clubman
posted 02-28-99 03:52 PM ET (US)     1 / 20       
Phil, your totaly wrong. Assy is still a contender in RoR, but now other civs fell its place. I do like'em however.

One bonus with assy that has enver been documented: Surprise. Since your CA atatck 40% faster, people expect you to swarm waves of CA. But say you use Cavs/Camels. It can often shred those defenses.

Elijeh
Clubman
posted 02-28-99 03:52 PM ET (US)     2 / 20       
Phil, your totaly wrong. Assy is still a contender in RoR, but now other civs fell its place. I do like'em however.

One bonus with assy that has enver been documented: Surprise. Since your CA atatck 40% faster, people expect you to swarm waves of CA. But say you use Cavs/Camels. It can often shred those defenses.

Also shang, Phoen, Minoan, Hittite, and Egyptian all have better bronze age than assyrian

FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 02-28-99 04:38 PM ET (US)     3 / 20       
Elijeh!? How could you leave out Macedonia?

Phil, you should use Assy in RoR and beat up all the people who have completely forgot about the original AoE and don't know what a CA rush is. Assy CA are the only unit that ever killed my comps... Maybe that is the reason why comps where not widely used in AoE?

Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 02-28-99 05:13 PM ET (US)     4 / 20       
Elijeh
1 or 2 months ago, I was playing exclusively AoE. I asked a question to all RoR players to know what was the status of Assy in RoR and the answers I got suggested that Assy was now an average civ because of the apparition of the 4 new units. That left me quite depressed since Assy is my pet civ in AoE and I believe I know this civ by heart. What I am trying to demonstrate in this thread is Assy is still an ass kicker civ (even though they have slower villies now) before mid-iron...

Can you explain me why we do not see Assy a lot in RoR if, according to you, they're still great in most ager's opinion?

Phil

P.S. A lot of water maps is an explanation of the disparition of Assy. Concerning land maps (i will include continental here, since my fishing boats are likely to survive longer than other water maps, since control of the sea is less vital), I think ppl just forget about them and under-estimate them. I would even pretend they are not so far from shang. BTW, I prefer those fast CAs on gigantic maps, rather than those slow compies... Even with an advance base, compies does not allow a quick change of target... CAs does...

On hill country maps, Assy gets lots stronger... IMHO!

P.S #2 Elijeh, you said "Also shang, Phoen, Minoan, Hittite, and Egyptian all have better bronze age than assyrian". Can I moderate your statement?

shang Well, Assy's CAs are better units than Shang's units but Shang's economy will be better.
Phoen 2 fast civs. what makes Phony superior to Assy in bronze?? can you tell me?
Minoan Assy gets better economy but minoan's compies can be tough to deal with... Minoan is one of the most powerfull civ in bronze but Assy will get to bronze before Minnies, so I give the advantage to Assy in early bronze. Minoans will be stronger than Assy as soon as we enter Iron... maybe late bronze too... Your compies upgrade take forever too... (geez, we're talking about a slow civ/fast civ fight here, don't you think this upgrade will look even longer for minnies?)
Hittite NO WAY!! Hitties CAs and Assy's CAs are equal! Assy get the better economy so i'll be bronze before you and you might have to deal with a CA rush or a camel rush...
Egyptian Really? Egypt have a better bronze than Assy? Assy get better economy and better bronze units.. can you explain that one to me please?!

[This message has been edited by Phil_The_Great (edited 02-28-99).]

Elijeh
Clubman
posted 02-28-99 05:24 PM ET (US)     5 / 20       
i dunno phil. We should see more Assy..but we don't. I love'em. However most people play hittie for CA..even tho hittite is slower.

------------------

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Sting
Clubman
posted 02-28-99 07:00 PM ET (US)     6 / 20       
Well...minoan can take out assy on water maps I think. Minoan is pretty fast on a water map, and besides if the minoan goes with camels for the first few mins of bronze until he can get improved bowmen, he can hang in there. Once get gets compies though, you will have trouble.
Elijeh
Clubman
posted 02-28-99 08:16 PM ET (US)     7 / 20       
Phil, sorry, but egypt hs almsot everything Assy has and its Priests, CAs, and chariots are better. You overrate the "speed" advanatage of Assyrian. theirvillager speed in RoR has been dropped down, and since fish are slower, they can't pit a 5 tile fish.

Hittites CA beat Assyrian once Hittite gets nobility. And your economy is only better prelimanary, i'll stabilize your advantage by knockign you off the sea, and playing a defensive stature untill i can out produce you and recover from wood expenditure.

Minoa: with 3 of the 4 new maps "wet" boats are tons more popular, and minoas are cheaper. Then in Bronze they get +2 range composites, who will shred CA. Whups.

Hell macedonia can prolyl take Assyrian if they survive prelimanary attacks.

Under_Siege
Inactive
posted 03-01-99 01:58 AM ET (US)     8 / 20       
Assyrian in ROR did take a big hit. Their faster vill speed bonus translates into a Tool age advantage, not a econ one. Their bronze times are not improved signifcantly. Assy's vill speed adv is best at avoiding Tool Age attacks. They are not a fast civ in ROR. Shang, Phoe, and Minoan are faster than them. Shang by up to 2 minutes, Phoe 1 minute, Minoan 30 seconds.

In Bronze age their military rulez. Egyptian is better, Minoan, and Macedonian. Thats all. For Early Iron they still rule. And I shall never sneeze at any civ with both hvy cat and helepolis. Plus full priest. I can think of several civs with worse Irons ( Macedonian, Choson [ yes Choson, Legions without missle armor are pointless ], Minoan, Palmy, Greek, Carthage, Yamato ) The only civs I can give the nod too are the scythe ones, simply because that upgrade is so vital. But I still love assy jihaded siegecrafted vills

Ender
Guest
posted 03-01-99 07:19 AM ET (US)     9 / 20       
A well played hittite/sumerian could beat assy in AOE. An equally played phoenician/shang/yamato could beat assy in AOE. A minoan left untouched long enough could beat assy in AOE. All of these things are still true, since everyone one of these civs gained something while assy just lost thing. Add in the camels and scythes and no egypt can beat them, throw in romes cheap towers and overpowering iron and they are at least as good. This meas that there are as many civs that can beat assy as civs that assy can beat, thus assy is an average civ.

nothing wrong with assy, they have a decent though boring iron, they are strong in bronze, they are okay on the seas, they have a great economy. They just don't have scythes which hurts soooo bad in iron age. If they just got engineering they'd still be a good civ though. But instead they get flawed siege, flawed barracks units, flawed stable units (no scythes or elephants), flawed archer units (no nobility or HHA), flawed academy units (no phalanx). Overall an average iron.

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 03-01-99 09:47 AM ET (US)     10 / 20       
Couple other things I'd like to point out.
1. RoR saw the popularization of two strats that weren't in common use in AoE -- Booming and Tool Rushing. Yes, some did them, but the bronze rush was much more popular. Thus, getting the first CAs out was really crippling. In RoR, slingers and boomers brought tool rushing to the forefront, and the Assy advantage was minimized, eliminated in the case of bowman rushing.

2. As for the expense of upgrades, since most players are booming, if the game goes Iron, it seems that resources are no longer a problem until gold runs out at the end of the game. But a higher awareness of trading has mitigated even that somewhat.

Others have pointed out other things that have eroded beneath the civ's foundation, and while each seems to have little impact, cumulatively, they have toppled the mighty Assy empire.

Keep your stick on the ice.

Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 03-01-99 12:08 PM ET (US)     11 / 20       
From what I am reading in your replies, I believe nobody understood what I try to demonstrate, PLUS, some people are saying very ridiculous things.

First, lets talk about Assy on land maps... The point I am trying to demonstrate applies only on land maps (which I made clear I think in my 2 previous posts), so lets keep water maps outside this thread ok?

Elijeh
I do not overate the speed of Assy's villagers. They have been toned down in RoR by about 20%, which give them a true 30% bonus instead of a ~40% like it was in AoE...

Under_siege
If a villager speed bonus is not an economic bonus but rather a tool bonus, then I am the prince Charles. Can you explain me how minoan can be faster than Assy??

Ender
We both recognise Assy took a hit in iron age. This downgrade appear only once super units are showing up on the board. I believe this not to happen too often before the 40 minutes mark (Geez, I am not playing SIMcity when I'm playing, I;m not gonna give you a 25 minutes of peace in the game, thus getting those super units before 30 minutes). Assy is still a great civ because they are one of the strongest before iron age. they will reach bronze faster than the slow civs and still get awesome CAs and have the Camel rider. Tell me why their tool/bronze economy/military has taken a hit in RoR compared to the other civs? The only reason is the fact their villies have been toned down slightly... not other reasons...

Thorfinn
you talk like if nobody was tool rushing in AoE nor booming! The booming strategy really makes the super upgrades affordable sooner in the game, but think about how you're gonna survive an Assy player who's also booming and investing everything else he got in his bronze army... you're going to be calling for help even before clicking on these upgrades... Afterall, 20 CAs and 5 STs (for example at 24:00-25:00) is really a butt kicker army in bronze... think about that

Assy is underrated on land maps in RoR

Phil

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 03-01-99 12:31 PM ET (US)     12 / 20       
It's been a while since I played AoE, but as I recall, the main tool rushes were bowmen or scouts, with the scout being the only one that had serious potential for wiping you out. (Speed and LOS) As long as you scattered, regrouped and built another SP for your woodies, bowman weren't too big a threat. Axers were only to distract villagers, as they couldn't actually catch one.

I think the biggest difference is the vast quantity of food in RoR. In AoE, I recall frequently having problems finding enough food to carry me through to bronze before I started farming. In RoR, its possible to play the entire game without building a single farm.

Villager speed only makes a difference if you are making them walk a long ways. The collection rates are the same (with only a few exceptions), so if your drop-off spots are well placed, your big bonus with villager speed is scouting.

Lastly, if all you can amass at 24:00 is 20 CA and 5 ST, you are in for a *world* of hurt.

Keep your stick on the ice.

Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 03-01-99 12:48 PM ET (US)     13 / 20       
Thorfinn
Ironing requires 1000 food and 800 gold. Lets say the Assy player does not aim to iron in the normal time frame (27-35) but rather invest in his bronze army, lets convert those 1800 ressources in what the Assy player would have gathered instead... lets say 1100 wood, 300 gold and 400 food. This means about 10 CAs and 3 STs. Add all this to what he already got. This is the kind of things that could happen to you when you click the iron button, to have such an army falling on you. I would destroying the rest of your town while you're relocating. After that, I would consider the Assy player to have done his job and jump to iron while you're rebuilding in an ally's town, while Assy bear the weight of being an average/bad iron civ... ... but still alive!

I think I'm gonna win a lot of games on land maps now

Phi
l

[This message has been edited by Phil_The_Great (edited 03-01-99).]

Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 03-01-99 01:06 PM ET (US)     14 / 20       
Oh, I agree. Iron jumpers *deserve* to die. IMO, Iron should be something you do when you don't know what else to do with all the food and gold you have. If you show up knocking on my door at 24:00 with only 20 CA and 5 ST, I am likely to offer you the chance to withdraw while you still can. That is not a large force, considering what you are going to be meeting. Last night I played a 3v3 random civ game (water map, though) where I drew Palmy and had trib'ed a little over 8,000 at the 25 min mark. At 30, I had my own scythes...
Under_Siege
Inactive
posted 03-01-99 01:11 PM ET (US)     15 / 20       
Oh Phil I did not know that you only meant land maps. It is of popular opinion that Assy is the third best civ there. ( Only phoe and shang being better ). Assy vill speed bonus actually is useful (econmically) on land only maps. Add in those deadly CA, and assy is a very strong contender. I think Assy is a great choice for Hell country, and I always hate facing assy opponents upon it.


In 3v3 games how strong one Iron is makes a big difference, since some games get drawn out. Of course assy has one of the strongest early Irons ( if not the strongest ). I absolutly hate to see those HA.

O_Captian
Inactive
posted 03-01-99 01:38 PM ET (US)     16 / 20       
Phil, in regards to speed of gaining resourses, minoan rules over assy on any map w/ water including conti. I played a game last night with a bad starting point (no straglers closer then 12 clicks) on a conti map w/ minoan and bronzed 15:05 with 54 total peons (21 real) with about 920 food, 300 gold, and 400 wood resources and 4 archery ranges built. I dont' think that assy can complete w/ that economy.

If I was on an end instead of the pocket, I would have been alittle slower setting up tool defenses and bronze rush defenses.

Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 03-01-99 03:19 PM ET (US)     17 / 20       
So I was not wrong by saying Assy is still very powerfull on land maps?! I would have never played Assy on water maps even in AoE, I will not change that in RoR of course

I am going to play exclusively Assy on land maps from now and give you my gut feeling about them in a couples of days/weeks. Probably some of you already made a deep analysis of Assy and already know what I am going to learn about them (RoR). I hope I will be able to come back soon and change the general and accepted sentence Assy is average BY Assy still rocks on land maps

We shall see

Phil

[This message has been edited by Phil_The_Great (edited 03-01-99).]

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 03-01-99 06:00 PM ET (US)     18 / 20       
Gotta agree with you Phil, while many here are rightfully saying assy got knocked down a peg they are still a great civ to get in a random civ game. While they can't do anything super well in iron they can counter other civs reasonably well because of what someone said earlier,

"I'll never sneeze at a civ that gets hcats and helios"

The Negatives are large in iron with the lack of Scythes but what are teamates for?

Also, while I love to tool rush I'm not a big fan with assy because of the lack of slingers. IMHO the assy player needs to use the economic advantage and be knocking on someones door HARD around the 17 min mark. As you rightfully said Phil with all the boomers out there you can usually catch someone with their pants down.

Great post Phil, good topic, it had been a little dry over here for a while.

If anyone want to start a post about how Yam is still a good civ I'd be happy to jump on that band wagon, now there is a tool rush civ with potential!

Ender, glad to see you still posting, let us know when SMAC gets boring, I have been playing the incredibly flawed but still fun CCIII lately.

Cya around.


NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 03-01-99 06:02 PM ET (US)     19 / 20       
Gotta agree with you Phil, while many here are rightfully saying assy got knocked down a peg they are still a great civ to get in a random civ game. While they can't do anything super well in iron they can counter other civs reasonably well because of what someone said earlier,

"I'll never sneeze at a civ that gets hcats and helios"

The Negatives are large in iron with the lack of Scythes but what are teamates for?

Also, while I love to tool rush I'm not a big fan with assy because of the lack of slingers. IMHO the assy player needs to use the economic advantage and be knocking on someones door HARD around the 17 min mark. As you rightfully said Phil with all the boomers out there you can usually catch someone with their pants down.

Great post Phil, good topic, it had been a little dry over here for a while.

If anyone want to start a post about how Yam is still a good civ I'd be happy to jump on that band wagon, now there is a tool rush civ with potential!

Ender, glad to see you still posting, let us know when SMAC gets boring, I have been playing the incredibly flawed but still fun CCIII lately.

Cya around.


The_Gray_Man
Inactive
posted 03-02-99 12:39 PM ET (US)     20 / 20       
In 1v1 games, I find the Assy bowman rush to be very effective to slow (not stop) your opponent, It's effective for several reasons:

In a group of three (which is what I usuallt send) 3 Assy bowmen can take down villagers very effectively doing 9 points of damage each shot.

Most people don't seem to automatically build slingers. This means I can wander into their woodies and start killing at will, I can kill 4 or 5 before the first slinger shows up and another 3 or 4 (if they are stupid and don't run then) before my archers die.

Once you hit them with 3 bowmen, they think you are going to send more, so they get nervous and start building up more slingers, Waste of resources because my next attack will be with a group of 6 CAs who can either kill the slingers (doing 12 pts of damage each shot) or simply run by them in search of vills.

If I get to bronze first and did it effectively (that means with a good and constant supply of wood and food coming in, I can, and have, beat any civ with assy.

Now fo I could just learn to broze fast no matter how bad my starting position....

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