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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Palmyrans
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Topic Subject:Palmyrans
Barbarosa
Clubman
posted 11-08-98 01:32 PM ET (US)         
    I have played a couple of games with them already, although I can't say I have managed to master them fully, and found them to be a very powerfull civ. They have very good Stable units, which can be mixed with a variety of Archers, Barack units, Siege Weapons and even priests.
    Even though the missing Engineering definitely makes the siege weapons less efficient, they can still be usefull in taking care of walls or towers while the scytes/HCavs/Armored Eles charge into the town backed up by your choice of archery unit. Note that all this is just a small overview. I want to let the experts here go into the details.
IMO, they are the most balanced civ in all ages. The tooling time is not that affected by the high villager cost, as that is somewhat ballanced by the bonus in resource gathering. They can hold their own pretty well in the case of a tool attack, and once in Bronze they can do a lot of damage with the camels/slingers/chariots/compies/cavs.
Their Iron time can be comparable to the Shang due to the bonus in villager resource gathering, and in this conjucture they should be feared by the Shang player.
The only problem with all this is that the beginning of the game requires a lot of micromanagement from the player, as he's not allowed to waste any time at all. That period is the most sensitive to the Palmyran player, and also the time when he's most vulnerable. At the same time, the late Stone Age/early Tool is not exactly a very popular time for attacks, and the Palmyran player should be able to wall his town undisturbed at that stage. I think that's the most important task at that point, on the top of the list even before bronzing. The only problem with this is that intense scouting is to be done for the wall to be placed effectively. Therefore, as soon as the Palyran player hits Tool, he should get a scout or two to be able to place the walls in the best locations. The bronze time would normally be terribly affected by this with any other civ, but not with the Palmyrans. Once again, their res. gathering bonus can reduce this handicap quite a bit, and the Palmyran player would be safe and sound behind his walls while the late Tool/early Bronze attacks begin. This however is easier said than done, the same as any other strategy, and requires an advanced player to be effective (and I'm not claiming I'm one such player - I'm just pointing out possibilities).
    As bronze age begins, and I assume some fighting has already taken place with bowmen and slingers or axemen, the slingers from tool can still be usefull in case the town is attacked with CAs before the player had time to bronze. During the time this fighting may take place, and especially before that, some vills should be switched from wood to gold, as gold is very important for the camels. Also, try and get the goldmining upgrade as well. As soon as the player hits bronze, and assuming the stables he used for building the scouts are still standing , camels should be the first priority. This is obvious for many of you, as the Palmyran camels are extremely effective against both cavs and chariots/CAs.
    They are not as usefull against vills however, but they should be used for attacking the enemy's town because in the meantime the enemy will most certainly build CAs/Chariots or cavs to get your camels away from hitting his vills. Also, for this reason, I bring the camels only for backing up my archers. While the camels take care of any attacking units that may come from the enemy buildings, my archers take care of the vills (and quite effectively I might add).
    All this has one important flaw however. We shouldn't assume the enemy hasn't built any walls or towers in the meantime. These would pose some problems to this attacking force, and you'd need some siege weapons. However, if the enemy went for a fast bronze and army build-up, it is most certain that he didn't have time for walling in completely - so a hole in the wall will do Otherwise, the game will probably become one of those long games where both players (teams) will get to Iron, fight it out there, and then the resources will be exhausted, etc...
In this case, the Palmyran player still has the edge IMO, as he has the capability to counteract almost any type of army. That is because of the extremely wide range of Stable/Archery Range/Siege Workshop units/priests available.For now I will leave out Academy units due to the lack of Aristocracy. Against other dumbos, like the Phoenician ones, the Palmyran player can back up his own units with ballistas - which I found very effective against the eles. in combined arms.

    I think I will stop here for now, and listen to your criticism to what I have said so far. I don't expect everything to be exactly as I have described it, therefore I will appreciate any corrections or any contributions that you guys may have.


~Barbarosa~

[This message has been edited by Barbarosa (edited 11-09-98).]

AuthorReplies:
Barbarosa
Clubman
posted 11-08-98 05:35 PM ET (US)     1 / 18       
    Also note that Palmyrans get Triremes and Fire Galleys as well, which gives them a high degree of power in sea warfare as well. Of course, they are missing the Heavy transport, but that shouldn't pose that much of a problem, as a few vills could quickly build a TC on the enemy's island, backed up by the Triremes on the shore and some cavs that came with the vills.
    They also get the full range of fortifications and towers, so that should definitely make them a popular civ for any type of game
    However, I haven't been that surprised to find the Palmyrans not very popular among forumers (in the Favourite Civ thread), but I guess that's because it hasn't been played enough yet. You guys should really give them a chance


~Barbarosa~


Angel MacRat
Clubman
posted 11-09-98 09:03 AM ET (US)     2 / 18       
I think you might be right. Once you get them going they can be very powerful. I guess the biggest thing with them is surviving until you get that "critical mass" of vills so that the resources start pouring in.

MR


Barbarosa
Clubman
posted 11-09-98 09:41 AM ET (US)     3 / 18       
    Yes, exactly, and that's why I put so much accent on walling in as early as possible. Of course, that would be a wise thing to do with any civ, but it's especially important for the Palmyrans.


~Barbarosa~


NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 11-09-98 09:47 AM ET (US)     4 / 18       
Palmy in late bronze absolutely rocks. Mix camels, CA and stonies, coupled with a strong economy and you can fight hard in bronze and still make iron. In two games I have found my lack of buildings the biggest constraint to polishing someone off as fast as I would like (2 shang opponents by the way!)


Barbarosa
Clubman
posted 11-09-98 10:03 AM ET (US)     5 / 18       
    Hehe, yeah, I know what you mean about the lack of buildings. The trick here is that you should try and use more boats for food, and concentrate more of your vills on wood (stone/gold as well) at the beginning. This way, I managed to get a good supply of food from a few vills and the boats (cheaper than vills), and enough wood for buildings and upgrades, with a good surplus for future Stone Throwers. Later on you'll find out that wood is not as essential anymore for Palmyra (unless you're using cats and ballistas or warships), so in late bronze you could switch a couple of the vills from wood to the other ones.
    My point is though, that fishing boats are definitely essential (and I forgot to mention this in the initial post) to Palmyrans. This is because of their lower cost compared to the high villager cost. And what's nice in RoR is that if you play on water maps you'll have an immense supply of fish (especially on Continental).
In many games I was still fishing even in middle Iron


~Barbarosa~


[This message has been edited by Barbarosa (edited 11-09-98).]

dshea
Inactive
posted 11-09-98 12:05 PM ET (US)     6 / 18       
I find I must respectfully disagree. I have also tried to use Palmyra, on the theory that they can boost their teammates or build a good middle bronze army. Unfortunately I find that they fail in one very important factor --> THEY CANNOT REBUILD!

I think everyone, in games where the players are of equal ability, loses vills. That is the key to most games, damaging the economy of the opponent while keeping yours intact. At the 75 food cost of a Palmyran villager, it is almost impossible to replenish your vills and produce enough defensive units to repel an attack. After all, if 1 CA kills 1 palmyran villager it is a 35 food advantage to the attacker.

Also many people claim that fishing is the key to all of this, but we should remember that not all maps allow for fishing. Highland and now Hill Country maps exist. Under these conditions, Palmyra is nigh on unplayable, as your vills are usually constantly exposed.

I will not deny that if you are in a game where you are able to

a) control the seas
b) wall in successfully
c) be untouched until late iron

you will do well with Palmyra, but you can say that about Greek as well.


Angel MacRat
Clubman
posted 11-09-98 12:44 PM ET (US)     7 / 18       
dshea,

1) It is difficult for Palmy to rebuild. No question. That's one reason I would never play them 1v1. Your teammates should be able to help you out with a little food. Ideally, of course. If you lose 10 vills you would only need 250 food tribbed to you to make your rebuilding equivalent to a 50 cost vil civ.

2) I wouldn't play them on land maps.

3) I think they are just interesting. You have to admit they are probably the most unique civ in the game.

4) They are much more versitle than Greek, wouldn't you agree?

5) I think they would work better in a low pop limit game...say 75 or less.

If I were playing to win only, they probably wouldn't be my choice of civs. I guess I would play Shang 100 times in a row. For me, that would be utter boredom, though.

Just $.02 from a far from expert player
MR


Angel Mack
Clubman
posted 11-09-98 01:06 PM ET (US)     8 / 18       
Palmryans ability to rebuild varies.
If you are rushed in tool, it will definetly be hard to rebuild. If you are attacked at late bronze, or iron and have a considerable amount of food (say around 800 which is very easy to get with palmryan once your economy is set) and some spare wood to build 2 TC's, they probably have the most potential to rebuild and be fighting in no time, unless on a 1 v 1 match, where there is no teammates to fall back on.
Although im not a expert, that is my theory on palmryans ability to rebuild

And a tip on not having to rebuild, do not wait until tool, and build a scout to find a decent walling spot, scouting is KEY to playing successful with palmryan, and I can not stress how critical it is to wall with them as early as possible.
I would not consider palmryan a civ for playing 1 on 1 games, unless you are looking for a challenge. Use your 8th peon to find these in this order: Wood, berries, decent walling spot, and stone/gold.
In most cases, you will find a cliff, and a few forest which will greatly aid you in walling and try to have some peons in each area that needs to be walled by the time you get the upgrade for walls, then immediately start constructing them.
If you are playing a 3 v 3, or 4 v 4 I suggest doing a massive peon boom in bronze, building TC's by all your resources instead of SP's is a very wise thing to do in case someone harrases you.


NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 11-09-98 01:59 PM ET (US)     9 / 18       
dshea,

Yes u can't rebuild as fast with palmy as with other civs but do you really think if you are playing an expert player and get half your peons toasted you really have a chance anyway? As several people have stated waling is essential for palmy because of the prohibitive rebuilding cost. Palmy is definitely not the one on one civ race but in a low pop game they are an incredibly strong civ, especially in mid-late bronze. in a pop 50 game 35 palmy peons in bronze at the 20 min. mark is about unbeatable.


SandyMan
Big Daddy
(id: ES_Sandyman)
posted 11-09-98 02:23 PM ET (US)     10 / 18       
For what it's worth, the extra point of armor that Palmyran villagers get is somewhat worthwhile vs the Tool age thugs at least. After Tool, combat units do so much damage that 1 pathetic armor point is pretty useless, but taking 13 hits from a scout or archer (as opposed to 9) is a big help. Also they very rarely lose a peon to lions which is not earth-shaking, but no hindrance.

Palmyrans were one of the more popular civs at Ensemble playtest sessions because they were so unique and different. People tend to get into a rut with other civs, but with Palmyran you have to think, act, and build up differently from the very start of the game.


Sting
Clubman
posted 11-09-98 04:35 PM ET (US)     11 / 18       
even tho palmy manages to pull off the absolute slowest tool time of any civs on default resources, once in tool they make a great feeder civ for a bullet civ (palmy/shang combo maybe? talk about an iron age boom, palmy feeds shang and shang should be able to iron in under 20 mins with ease)

just an idea...oh dang now we might start seeing palmy and shang combos


Barbarosa
Clubman
posted 11-09-98 07:07 PM ET (US)     12 / 18       
    Oh yeah, now that you mention it Sting, I really don't consider the Palmyrans to be the feeding civ everyone's been talking about. It can be used as that very efficiently of course, but I think they are greatly underestimated that way. Besides, how many players are willing to play that role anyway?


~Barbarosa~

[This message has been edited by Barbarosa (edited 11-09-98).]

Sting
Clubman
posted 11-09-98 08:34 PM ET (US)     13 / 18       
yep well i hate being a feeder, and unless its a heavily competitive game i will not reduce my "fun factor" just to win like that

besides i dont play shang

but actually after a few games with palmy i am really starting to like them...a lot

granted they have a bad tool time but on a gig map in a 4v4 on medit map type (thats the most common scenario these days) palmy rocks!

as soon as i get to bronze i can literally whoop on everything

lets take it for example on a 75 pop limit. I would not use CAs unless i absolutely needed to, compys and STs works great! compys chew up camels (which have basically replaced cavarly) and STs, well they chew up buildings

but the best part about palmy is that with woodchoppin upgrades and farm upgrades i can let those little dudes do their thing and build less of them, therefore less micromanagement

playing palmy is a skill, and their tool time sucks
you gotta play in a team game, because that way you can make a decent bronze army, help attack, lay down a front line with another player, and still get to iron in under 28 mins!

its really quite amazing, two games now i have been iron in under 30 mins with about 12 compys and 3 STs (which is a modest bronze army) and resources to spare!

and when i get to iron i use HAs and ballistas...bad thing about palmy? no engineering

they are probably the most, and also my most, underrated civ
hmmmm will they replace hittites as my fav civ? too soon to tell...

im so happy cause of my fav new civ


Barbarosa
Clubman
posted 11-09-98 08:50 PM ET (US)     14 / 18       
    Yep, same here man! . Also, the surplus resources does not apply only to Iron. I often find myself with lots of food and wood to spare when I get to Bronze as well, which can be REALLY, REALLY helpfull building up an army fast to overwhelm the enemy (in about 2 consecutive attacks with a good opponent), and get the upgrades.


~Barbarosa~


Archer
Clubman
posted 11-09-98 09:22 PM ET (US)     15 / 18       
well i know a friend that can get sub 12 min bronzes with palmy with only 12 vills but..
you can build more vills after bronze can u not
i play palmy a lot i find them great u have to be careful but after your food is coming in stedaly your are having a great time
Death revisted
Inactive
posted 11-10-98 02:27 AM ET (US)     16 / 18       
palmy has a crapy tool but that is almost compleatly offset by bronze. in one game i had 400 (well 374) food by the ime the tool upgrade was done! but that was with two eles and a berry patch going. Palmy rules in teams no doubt if you can overcome the early defict. I have played palmy almost exclusivly scince i got RoR algough I have not given macedonian a good chance. it's 11:30 and I got to do my hame work so I will end my post.


WarLust
Inactive
posted 11-10-98 10:51 AM ET (US)     17 / 18       
Read my thread under Stings "How many vills do you need...." for more info on Palmy.

WL


Ender
Guest
posted 11-10-98 12:09 PM ET (US)     18 / 18       
Just a little tidbit for everyone to work on. If you are playing a gigantic map, and the palmyran builds a dock at 6 and an ally builds one at 9, and the palmyran builds 2 trade ships and runs them back and forth you will have endless heaps of gold. Using this tactic for every 20 wood you trade you'll get back 150 gold. This is very significant, try it out sometime.

BTW Palmyrans get twice as much gold from trading ships as other civs, in case you didn't know


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