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Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Phoenician=Best??
Topic Subject:Phoenician=Best??
posted 02-23-99 11:53 AM ET (US)         
I think that Phoenician is the best civ becurse they got that advantage to get woods. You can get more buildings, farms, boats faster if you have a lot of wood. And you have almost everthing worthwhile uppgrades, good army+priest. I usually tool in 7-8 min, bronze 12-15 min, iron 19-22 min and have around 20 chariotarcher. I never have to be afraid of running out of wood. In teams I can build one more town beside my allied. Maybe Im wrong about Phoenician but this is how I think about the Phoenician.
posted 02-23-99 01:12 PM ET (US)     1 / 13       
If you look at civs like that Shang (doh!) rules again. They get guaranteed non-stop vill production in stone and they need less vills on food than any other civ, which makes more vills available for woodcutting. In Bronze, there is no civ that can vill-boom better than Shang IMO. I like Phoeni too, I even hate Shang, but these are the facts.


posted 02-23-99 02:14 PM ET (US)     2 / 13       
Phoenicia is generally considered in most circles a fast civ. So if I'm playing a fast civ game, Shang is the obvious but dull choice. If its a slow civ game, good luck getting phoeny (that fast civ idea again).

But when playing random, I grin from ear to ear getting phoeny. I feel it has a stronger bronze than minoan, but that is my opinion and based on the game strats that I employ.

In a no shang all other civs ok, then phoeny is most likely my choice if it matches well w/ my team mates.

posted 02-24-99 06:50 AM ET (US)     3 / 13       
on water maps I think pheonician is as good as shang with a good starting spot. With a bad starting spot shang is still better though. Shang has a better tool rush, phoenician is much better in iron.... on a water map! On a land map shang is probably just as good in iron.
posted 02-24-99 11:03 AM ET (US)     4 / 13       
I have found that I can beat Pheos with Minoes 8 times outta 10. I find that Compies eat Pheos anything's. The reason for this is that the Mineon comp range bonus will allow all comps to fire at targets one at a time, constantly decreasing the power of the pheo, while the pheo CA's will start to attack individual targets, which will take too long to kill. The wood cutting bonus isnt even all that will only get an extra 1000 wood or so in the first 30 mins. A minoen doesnt even have to go iron to beat a pheo, Compies can kill em for the whole game. Even in Iron, just go for pumped bulistas, then helio them...should be easy, since I find that once iron I have about 2000 food and 4000 wood. A helio with engineering will be the same range as a stoner with engineering, but a helio can dodge a stoners stone.

I think Pheos is only superior at sea, their ground is easily countered with certain units come mid bronze.

posted 02-24-99 12:23 PM ET (US)     5 / 13       
easy solution to this, don't let the minoan get composite bowmen. Phoenician should tool faster and bronze faster while almost booming as well. Take the seas from them early, put them on the run. But yes Phoenicians have problems with helepolis so in iron minoan can take em out.
posted 02-24-99 01:14 PM ET (US)     6 / 13       
Shang are best, Phoe are 2nd best, the gap is smallest on wet maps. The reverse is only true where for whatever reason the water is crucial in late bronze / iron. Phoe and Shang both have the pick of units in bronze but Shang just gets them earlier and in greater numbers. In iron if the battle is on land the Shang can win with a SC / priest combination, whether he builds archers and cats or even ballistas is a matter of preference.
I take exception to the suggestion that the Phoe wood bonus is only worth ca. 1000 wood in the first 30 min. This would imply a normal wood consumption in the first 30 minutes of only 3000-4000? Are you sure, do you want to reconsider? How many composite bowmen does it take to stop 20 war elephants or EA. Come on talk sense. The Minoan needs to iron too and get heps. In which case I agree the Minoan wins in iron.
posted 02-24-99 01:15 PM ET (US)     7 / 13       
Lots of comments here !

1) In my opinion and that of many others Phoe is the 2nd best civ in the game because it is the 2nd fastest civ in the game and has a great navy and a decent(not the best) iron to go along with that speed.

2) My experience indicates that Shang is faster than Phoe regardless of map type. The fact that Shang can always create peons with no delay in stone coupled with the need for less peons on food to maintain peon flow means that Shang can do the typical 40-45 total boat/vils bronze boom a bit faster than Phoe can. But believe me, Phoe is a close 2nd! Shang also can create more real vils than Phoe and and equivilient number of fewer boats, and peons are better than fishing boats.

Phoe is in trouble vs Minoa from mid-iron on, but hopefully Phoe is able to hurt Minoa before the Minoan can get the two comp upgrades. Phoe should hit the Minoan with either a tool rush or a camel rush in early bronze.

I have one question about using Phoe elephants in iron. What is a good percentage mix of elephant archers /war ele's(armored ele's) to use ? thx neilkaz

posted 02-24-99 04:04 PM ET (US)     8 / 13       
Knight_Night, what makes you think Im going to come at you w/ CA's? I prefer a mix of compies and ST's. Minoan is not the only civ that makes compies (though not the range bonus). Further, I can use the wood on ST's and War Galleys. You will have to fight a complex army of compies, STs, and war galleys.

But that is my angle, and phoen is a faster than minoan, thus I play minoan 8 times more then phoen.

posted 02-24-99 04:30 PM ET (US)     9 / 13       
this is what pisses me off about Phoen: Phoens as good as shang on water maps. WRONG! Phoen is the 2nd fastest civ on ALL MAPS. Why? Faster wood gathering means, more villager son food, and less on wood. Everybody thinks phoen is a Boom only civ. but its not. Phoen has a downright deadly econimic bonus, equivilent to Romans cheaper buildings, but since their bronze is better their better.
Also i feel that EA are a waste. Their expensive, and their just overpriced, oversized Composite bowmen. They make good guards for Villies, and are good if you suspect HA to harry your eles. but keep 4-8 CA for Priest killing. EA generally suck, HA/CA are better for all things except for Heles Killing
posted 02-25-99 06:55 AM ET (US)     10 / 13       
agreed, back up the elephants with chariot archers, for priest attacks, mix in some scythe chariots to beef up the force. I agree phoenician is fast on all settings, but if you take away the sea they fall further behind shang in strength.
posted 02-27-99 09:32 PM ET (US)     11 / 13       
Shang are better than pheon cause they are just too quick, pheons wood bonus is neutralised by shang superior vill count, if it reaches iron then shang only need build compies and ballistas

Minoan are also much better than pheon even on water maps, minoan get cheap boats which makes up for pheons wood bonus and minnows dont need wood for their military so they can produce more, Minoan just has defend his land with compies and take to the seas, in iron its curtains for pheon, the only unit the minoan has to produce is helepolis in large groups, pheon has no answer for these.

posted 02-28-99 03:30 AM ET (US)     12 / 13       
Stooge, as has been stated earlier the phoe woodcutting bonus is an incredible speed bonus. Minoan cheap boats do not come until after you have built a dock, and phoe gets that dock up 20 to 30 seconds quicker than minoan. Then the amazing amount of wood that flows in allows one to build enough boats to get to the amount needed, and then their bonus continues, since you always need wood. The minoan bonus will only help them past them more (after the initial boom ) if they get caught in a naval battle, something which I generally feel should never be started ( since this reduces your possible number of archery ranges ). So not only does the phoe bonus work early in the game, it keeps on working throughout the entire game. Where as the minoan econ bouns wears out once you have made enough fishing boats. Minoan is a damn good civ, but cannot compete with the crowned god ( Shang )and her queen ( Phoenician).

I do have one question about the Shang iron. How effective are their helepolis? I've never seen helepolis that did not have ballistics. I mean can the helepolis take out eles? Or scythes? If not then this is a serious drawback in the Shang vs Phoe

posted 03-02-99 02:22 PM ET (US)     13 / 13       
IMO elephants and Scythes fall easy prey to helepolis'. Even without balistics. The fire rate of a hele is fast enough to make up for the lack of accuracy.

"What a waste it is to lose one's mind.
Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful.
How true that is."
- Vice President Dan Quayle

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