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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » shang...(i know its been beat to death but.....)
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Topic Subject:shang...(i know its been beat to death but.....)
ricktsu
Inactive
posted 02-16-99 11:17 PM ET (US)         
no argument here on shang military abilities, or good in bronze bad in iron, or why they are the best..maybe not the best....i would like to know why es chose to gave them the 30 cost villager?.. i mean not to be a jerk but why does there civ have low cost villagers..does that mean that in ancient times the shang had cheap lives..that they were worthless or something...or that they could create human life any quicker then anyone else????i want to hear what you guys think...why the shang have such cheap villagers?? imho...it is one ability/civ attribute i wish had been stricken from ror...well..flame on


AuthorReplies:
Shang_villager
Inactive
posted 02-18-99 08:47 AM ET (US)     1 / 19       
The chinese population has been the world's largest (in terms of numbers). The only way to reflect that in a game would be to have cheap vills


Bolshi_Basci
Inactive
posted 02-18-99 11:17 AM ET (US)     2 / 19       
One Flame, but its a hot one. 30 vill cost. Gosh if that were actually true wouldn't it put them at rather a large advantage?
I favour the ST espoused conspiracy theory that ES were ingratiating themsleves with the Chinese.


Chanchito
Inactive
posted 02-18-99 11:34 AM ET (US)     3 / 19       
SInce they have such a large population that has rics as a staple and very little protein in their died, make their villagers have a base carry of 8. That would still give them an advantage and slow them down a little. Might even be historic.


epic_hoplite
Inactive
posted 02-18-99 11:59 AM ET (US)     4 / 19       
Carrying capacity 8? That would be an overkill in the game and absolutely not historical.

BTW, I hate when newbies are talking about "the shang dominance". Shang requires an expert hand to be dominant! So stop whinning about shang until you know how to play it!


O_Captian
Inactive
posted 02-18-99 01:08 PM ET (US)     5 / 19       
Epic, we have played a few times, so you know I don't fall into the "newbies" category, unfortunately I don't fall into the expert category either.

A couple of questions though, first if your are an expert (and I know that you are one heck of a player), generally are you not dominate in most civs that you play? Second, from a report written on Matty, he stated when I want to win, I play Shang. Are you saying that you would not choose Shang in a game with experts given that shang was allowed?

Now if I was given that question, I would argue I would want to see what civs are chosen then choose a civs that matches up well against opponents. Fair enough, but if you had to choose a civ first, and you couldn't change it, would it not be Shang?


He who has the last peon standing, wins!

Bolshi_Basci
Inactive
posted 02-18-99 02:05 PM ET (US)     6 / 19       
Er epic, go on take a look at the "Take another look at Shang" thread. I may not be in your league, I don't know I have never played you. But you don't have to be an expert to play faster and more powerfully than otherwise with Shang. Experts are more dangerous with Shang than any other civ hence Shang are chosen in competitive matchups.
Shang have an obscene advantage which is widely acknowledged.
I think your labelling of someone for suggesting Shang should be limited in some fashion as a Newbie is unfair and that person certainly never said Shang were "dominant" in that thread.
I play mainly in Quirinal and Shang are very rarely found even in any civ games. The reason in my not-so-humble opinion is exactly because the advantage is seen as unfair and nobody wants to go down the if you take Shang I will take Shang and we can see who rushes hardest route. That after all is what 1 vs 1 in the ratings rooms is for. Random civ games between teams of equal skill can be sorely skewed by the introduction of a Shang and I for one would use a random - Shang option.
When everyone was moaning about Shang in the beta of ROR Sandy Petersen said he thought Shang would be dominant for a week or so until everyone developed anti-Shang strats. Well they were dominant but nobody developed a way to beat them they just became sick of them and were forced to exclude them by choice or by stigma.
There are now two types of ROR, almost completely different games with and without Shang. Is it so terrible to suggest that Shang might be tweaked to make ROR a 16 civ game as ES presumably intended?


ricktsu
Inactive
posted 02-18-99 11:41 PM ET (US)     7 / 19       
i dont think you are refering to me as a newbie..but maybe you are ...i would actually be kind of offended if you did....because my post name is diffrent then my screen name...so if ..your purpose was to call me a newbie becasue i brought up a shang topic..then your wrong im not..i play every night and have for a while and i have played against you...if your not reffering to me then im sorry to bring it up


ricktsu
Inactive
posted 02-18-99 11:45 PM ET (US)     8 / 19       
oh yea..this was for epic ..


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 02-19-99 04:31 PM ET (US)     9 / 19       
Shang is obscene ! I just got into a 3v3 giga cont map pop 125. Two members of the other team took Shang so I did too, and then suggested no Shang or Random, but they would not switch. Thus I was determined to put on a really good "Shang Show" for them. I got a corner spot w/TC near water but no shorefish. I did see plenty of ocean fish and found 2 spread out berry patches and had almost enough stragglers near TC for houses and a wood pit( I had to run back 30 wood from forest to pit) I.E. this is a normal nothing special map. ..

Determined not to screw up and with no lag and speed 1.0 I was ready to show off ! Went with 27 peons and had 13 boats from two docks when tooled about 10:05(it takes 8 min to make 24 new peons) I also had 1 SP and 2 granaries. When I arrived in tool I could immediately put up 2 buildings and make a scout and get woodchopping. As soon as I clicked then bronze upgrade button at 10:30, I was able to research horse armor for my scout in case he found enemy peons. Then I got goldmining and made another scout and hurt the yellow Shanger while preparing to trash him w/camels. I made a few more boats and save the rest of my wood for more buildings and my CA follow up.

Later, in the game after trashing Yellow I saved both allies /TC peon boomed and cruised to a Scythe happy under 22 bronze. winning easily.

No civ except Shang can tool in 10 w/no SF w/27 peons 13 boats and totally dominate early play...neilkaz (PS Don't let me play Shang)

Chanchito
Inactive
posted 02-19-99 05:00 PM ET (US)     10 / 19       
Epic I am an intermediate player and would like to tone down shang if possible. I play under a different name and have been your partner on more than one occation. You are a better player than I am, but a villager cost of 40 would be the same as a base carry of 8. Their carry would go up through the ages and if a tech or 2 were added down the line, that would make up for the carry penalty. If you micro manage your peons it well, it would not be that much of an imposition. Almost 80% of the games on the zone that I play are either noshang or slow civ. (noshang, assy, or yam) why yam and assy are included is from AOE. I guess old habits ie hard.
FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 02-19-99 05:07 PM ET (US)     11 / 19       
yes, it is because the Chinese alwyas had a big populationg and a good economy... They were isolated and therefor couldn't fight. But in RoR there is no such thing as isolated. So Shag gets to have rushes and good economy. ES should have given them less units, and weaker units. IMO that could balance the game out
Ender
Guest
posted 02-22-99 08:10 AM ET (US)     12 / 19       
well first off its 35 food for a shang villager. Second I dont' think the answer is changing the villager cost, the answer is toning down the military. Take away all the new units and you are set.

Shang would be the fastest to tool, but with no slingers they wouldn't be as good a tool rushers, they'd be fastest to bronze but without camels they are vulnerable to others camels, if they go composite bowmen they won't get you before your bronze. If they didn't get scythes and fire galley's there navy would be the worst in iron, and there land army would be below average. Plus they could be run out of gold later in the game. This would be a civ that needs to win early or it'll lose for sure, instead of a civ that can pick when to win and win at that point.

Cherub Desert R
Clubman
posted 02-22-99 09:36 AM ET (US)     13 / 19       
They had scythes historicly,so lets let em keep them,but yeh,tone down their military by -such and such attack for cavs/infantry and -such and such attack for archer units.Make them the only civ with a bad attribute.
PippinTook
Banned
posted 02-22-99 10:28 AM ET (US)     14 / 19       
Ummmm I'm a Chinese but I really can't see how u can say that Chinese can't fight and are weak ppl.....( I guess too much movie and TV influense)

I personally think they should get a high farming bounse and a reduce infantry price instead though.

BTW: let's not post about things that u aren't abosalutly certain off, just seen it on TV or heard it from friends

Ender
Guest
posted 02-22-99 12:31 PM ET (US)     15 / 19       
sorry I wasn't trying to say anyone was weak, I meant in AOE shang was okay because they had the strongest economy but one of the weakest militaries in iron. That set the flavor for the civilization, you need to rush early to win, or boom to stay even late. I think changing anything with the villagers loses that flavour, but limiting the military tech tree so they don't get everything would work.
PippinTook
Banned
posted 02-24-99 10:24 AM ET (US)     16 / 19       
Yes but remember that Chinese also has the largest standing Army, I think they should at least I have Phalanx and Long Swordsmen in Iron, also any unit not mounted should be somewaht cheaper. ( well Shang is only good in early bronze accurtly)
Shang_Rulz
Inactive
posted 03-02-99 08:54 AM ET (US)     17 / 19       
you people who are contridicting Shang why don't you just go to ES and get a job then you can do whatever you want of course most of you are to young and the others just hate shang for the simple reason that they can be beat with it

------------------
<<<<<long live shang>>>>>
all other opponents shall die

Sting
Clubman
posted 03-02-99 09:41 AM ET (US)     18 / 19       
Gee shang_rulz, thanks for your contribution to this conversation!

Shang_Rulz
Inactive
posted 03-02-99 04:49 PM ET (US)     19 / 19       
Thanx Sting I really like contributing to conversations
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