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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » how to stop 30 hittite HH archers?
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Topic Subject:how to stop 30 hittite HH archers?
Monty
Clubman
posted 02-16-99 11:03 PM ET (US)         
I was playing on the zone last night when my opponent came at me with about 30 Hittite HH archers..

Nothing seems to get close to them.. scythes die by the truck load.. camels.. eles.. everthing.

Is heavy seige the only way to go here? What if you are a civ without heavy seige?

Your guys help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks


AuthorReplies:
Holmgang
Inactive
posted 02-17-99 02:35 AM ET (US)     1 / 22       
Wall Up!!
And if you're egypt like I usually am...Convert! Convert! Convert! :-)

Holmgang


Stooge_Farsan
Inactive
posted 02-17-99 06:25 AM ET (US)     2 / 22       
:-)

Most improtant imho -- Do not send small groups to fight massed army like archers -- If you send 30 SCs in a big group it may works. But if you send 10 SCs each time, you loose for sure.


If no seige, war eles works good if you have sufficient number. What civ was you using ? If you have both SCs and War eles (armoured best), use both of them and it should have good results.

Towers, esp B-tower works always good as defense against archers. Use SCs and war eles to help.

Elephant archer works too, but you need about 2:3 ratio to be sure on the winning side (rough guess). Better to combo with some SCs or AEs.


Stooge_Farsan

PendragonWRB
Inactive
posted 02-17-99 11:05 AM ET (US)     3 / 22       
Cats are the best defense against packs of
horse archers. I actually am afraid to waste
my gold on HA's cause they die so easily
to even a small pack of cats. I would bet
even stone throwers would be failry effective
because cats/stonies target the first horse
in the pack and endup hitting the horses
behind. The larger the pack of HA's, the
more they pack up and that makes them easy
pickins.


O_Captian
Inactive
posted 02-17-99 11:41 AM ET (US)     4 / 22       
Cat splash is what the doctor ordered. HCat are the best and HHA die by the hand fulls. Even standard Cats kick HHA as w/ any archery unit. 30 HHA cost, not looking at upgrade cost is 4500 in food and gold. You can get 17 Cats for same units of resource cost (wood and gold), and you will have 10+ Cats after the battle.


He who has the last peon standing, wins!

Jehu
Inactive
posted 02-17-99 12:24 PM ET (US)     5 / 22       
Farsan is right. The answer is to have sufficient numbers to do the job. Don't waste your resources sending in 12 or so scythes or 6 war elephants against such a large number of HHAs. Even 5 or 6 cats can be handled by 30 horse archers if lag isn't a big problem. Noone mentioned helepolis. A horde of helepolis would massacre a horde of horse archers.


Cookernup
Inactive
posted 02-17-99 12:36 PM ET (US)     6 / 22       
I use helopolis group against all archers they also stand up well to elles cats are also good but will destroy your town center if the archers are chasing peons around

As in town defense helopolis groups (10 or so) are great but watch out for elevations


ANNJI
Inactive
posted 02-17-99 03:51 PM ET (US)     7 / 22       
As per the previous posts, if your opponent came at you with 30 HHA you should have no difficulty so long as you have an "adequate" number of siege weapons around, even s/t's.

Have you ever tried to maneuver a group of 30 HHA in one group? From a standing start or changing directions on the move they all bunch up and bump into each other. HHA are my favourite units but they were never intended to be fought that way. They operate best in small groups of 5 or 6 that are hotkeyed so that you can concentrate 2 or 3 such groups quickly. When combined they have huge offensive force but are very fragile with only 104 hp'S (2 Cat shots) each (after nobility). They are intended to strike very hard and then get the hell out of Dodge before anything can hurt them. By the way they are the fastest units in the game tied with Palmy camels (like your going to see a lot of them in mid-late iron) making them incredibly flexible. In sufficient numbers and with proper tactical grouping they can absolutely control "no-man's land" but they cannot hold against a determined trust by an army with a core of siege weapons. That would be the job of units with much higher HP's.

So, the answer to your question is hit them with every siege weapon that you've got. If they disperse (like they should) counterattack something that they need to defend (like their town) with your siege thereby pulling your opponent's (apparently) main force into a killing ground.


Your_Old_Friend
Inactive
posted 02-17-99 04:55 PM ET (US)     8 / 22       
I will repeat some stuff,but I will incorporate my experience

First, from the perspective of a (ex-)fanatic of massed HHA (I, too, used to mass about 25 in one group and 15 or 20 in another and go mad on the opponent).

Well, it did not work that well.

So, I'll tell you what hurt me: EROSION.

HHA's are not cheap. They cost a bunch of resources (especially at that rate of the dozens...) and the upgrade is very expensive (not to mention all the range and especially armor upgrades that you must get prior to finally getting them...
Add a lot of wood for a lot of A/Ranges...

The second point is that they are really, really dependent on numbers to be effective.

Under attack, their survival is a bit like Compies: either they kill the opponent units before they can do significant damage, or... bummer.
Run away is not gonna save you ... when and for how long will you be able to manoeuvre?...

So, the fact is: NO NUMBERS, NO PUNCH.

Any tactics that counter (H)HA by trimming their numbers will work well.

Now to the ENEMIES of HHA.

LAG

The enemy #1. Avoid using them against powerful siege units and elephants, when lag is significant - you won't have time to retreat

Sumerian / Hittite Heavy Cats

No need to develop on these beasts....

Any Heavy Cats

You need more of them... but they work well. Be ready to lose quite a few, but the investment will be well worth.

Sumerian and Hittite Cats

These perform as well as any heavy Cats from other Civs. A good number of losses is also expected.

Good combinations

Warning: we are talking NUMBERS here. Against any massed army, normally only reasonable numbers can prevail.

The essence of missile is FAST concentration of fire in one single enemy unit (to reduce the overall weight of the attacking party - "erosion"). Besides the "fast reduction rate" of area effect awarded by Cat fire, there are other good solutions.

War or armored Elephants (preferably) backed by Elephant Archers.

The EA should attack first, immediately followed by the WE/AE. You will lose quite a few, but the objective here is to be able to place the WE/AE inside the group of HA - once there, the trample effect of Elephant damage will help a lot.
You need about 5 or 6 SURVIVING AE/WE (so you will need more to start with) and at least some 15 EA to boot.
You can improve this combo by adding some ST in the back, or Helepolis. Be aware though, that HHA are quite effective against Helepolis/balistas and that these cost more...


Good Scythes (preferably Egyptian) backed by Elephant Archers.

The EA should attack first, immediately followed by the Scythes. You will lose most Scythes, but the objective here is to be able to place the Scythes inside the group of HA - once there, the trample effect of Scythe damage will help a lot.
You need about 10 or 15 SURVIVING Scythes (so you will need 2 groups of some 20 each to start with) and at least some 15-20 EA to boot.
You can improve this combo by adding some ST in the back, or Helepolis. Be aware though, that HHA are quite effective against Helepolis/balistas and that these cost more...


Elephant Archers only

Yes, in a number of 3/4 (if Hittite HHA) or 2/3 (if other race's HHA), they work - but only from a defense stand, you won't catch them in the open...

"Solutions" that are too costly or simply don't work

Don't bother with solutions based on single units (except Cats). The damage done by the HHA will be far superior to their cost - and (resources permitting) they regenerate fast!

Solution based on Scythes will work only if several players sending them and micromanaging from several directions. The HHA must be in the open for this to work.

Cavalry, Infantry and Academy will not work. Shield or no shield, forget it.

Unless, of course, you are sending in 100 units at a time ...

Any solution based on Helepolis is bound to ruin you ... ballistas just waste.

Stone throwers, well, should not work. Archers shoot the fringes while backing up from the ST.

Armored or War Elephants end up working, but at what a cost!... If you can corner the HHAs, then it should be less ugly...

The Tower Solution.

Of course, the final stand (filling an area with ballista towers) will work always - but the HHA only have to die if they cooperate, LOL!...


The conclusion:

It is expensive both to assemble and kill mass HHA, especially Hittite, who get all the possible bonuses and upgrades.

If the HHA horde is obtained PRIOR to the existence of adequate defense.... then it's DEATH for the victim. Walls only work if you already have SOME counter units (like Cats) and are in the process of obtaining more. Otherwise, they just delay the inevitable fate.



Strategy Hint

Be Yamato!...

Tool rush (mild).
Bronze Rush (a few cavs, to delay his iron even more..)
Go for the kill with your massed cheap HA (don't wait for HHA) and kill him while he is still in Bronze.

In a team game, with luck, you may get to kill 2 opponents this way.
Attack the Heavy Cat guys first, so that you can run around longer practically unchecked

I know: I've once died to this... and I was already in Iron (just arrived). Lost most of my Villies, my brand-new Cats and Ballistas in no time!...
Because you yourself HAVE to assemble sufficient mass to counter, he can get to you with his mass already formed. It works.


Monty
Clubman
posted 02-17-99 08:45 PM ET (US)     9 / 22       
The answer to the question of what civ I used is Hittite.. love those cats. But unfortunately if I brought my cats in.. so would he bring in his heavy cats.. I was caught between a rock and a hard place!

As for walling.. it doesn't take a hittite long to get through walls with his cats.

Interesting point about the AE/WE combo with EA.. I'll try that next time..

Oh, I sent in about 20 scythes (fully upgraded) and the all got nailed without laying a hit. Maybe eles is the only way :-0

Any other ideas?.. this combo of his was lethal in the extreme.. as you can imagine, I want to combat it before others catch on.

Thanks again.


ANNJI
Inactive
posted 02-17-99 09:35 PM ET (US)     10 / 22       
If you've got Hittite cats and 20 fully upgraded Hittite S/C (2nd best in the game)and he shows up with just his HHA you've got him beat. Cats take out the HHA. Without their support if his cats do show up they will be S/C fodder. You can afford to lose a lot of S/C's especially in late iron. Plus you still have your own cats.

Am I missing something here? In your last post you talk about your opponent having a "combo". Did he have a mass of cats behind his HHA? If so you had a much bigger problem that just his HHA. However, he shouldn't have his HHA in front of his cats. You still have an opportunity to severely damage them with your cats before his cats get into range. Hurt them enough and your S/C's might get through to the cats.


Arthur
Clubman
posted 02-18-99 10:29 AM ET (US)     11 / 22       
I once had 20 HHAs and I was Assyirian, nothing was able to reach me except those Carthaginian elephant archers, they came by pairs but those did some serious damage to my HHAs so I think if you are a elephant civ(Persian, Carthaginian or Phoenican)you should build elepaht archers to counter them.


epic_hoplite
Inactive
posted 02-18-99 10:40 AM ET (US)     12 / 22       
Arthur, you what? If you were Assyria and you got 20 HEAVY horse archers, then you were in a full tech game. I would be glad to match your force with 20 Greek HHAs.


Your_Old_Friend
Inactive
posted 02-18-99 10:44 AM ET (US)     13 / 22       
One important clarification about Scythes attacking, that many people seem to miss!...

Scythes are only effective when they can attack in a BROAD front.

If your Scythes are approaching the enemy while being funnelled into some kind of corridor, or have to gather / stop at some type of obstacle or pass, then it is totally irrelevant whether you send in 20 or 200 - they will all be massacrated!...


Hint:

You are facing hordes of Scythes and you have to protect your valuable cats / helepolis or HA.

Build stuff in between, or, if possible have natural obstacles help you there...

Scythes / AE /WE will have to stop or slow down and group - then they will be easy target for your Siege or missile troops!...

Converselly, if you are the man with the scythes, do not let yourself be provoked in such a situation. Medit maps are great opportunities to go the other way around... and get him out in the open

Send in a Scout the other way round, find a good unchecked spot and tranny/walk over a bunch of peons to build stables, then...


Dhamon
Inactive
posted 02-18-99 01:20 PM ET (US)     14 / 22       
To use scythes more efectivly, you can also mix in a scout with your scythe horde. Scythers, like cav, Eles, and infantry are blind, and can often miss their target with out backup by a unit with a large LOS.

as to beating massed HHHAs (Hittite Heavy Horse Arhers)

Cats, towers(balista), Heles, and walls all do the trick


ANNJI
Inactive
posted 02-18-99 06:23 PM ET (US)     15 / 22       
Old Friend:

Your point is well taken especially since your insights apply to every unit in the game (even ships). Units forced into column to traverse a narrow passage are always incredibly vulnerable (just as they were in history).


MiC_Biodigestor
Inactive
posted 02-19-99 12:52 PM ET (US)     16 / 22       
30 HHAs? that's a lot of gold it makes... hmmm... 2100 gold if I am correct

Well, I guess the question is how to kill a huge army? Lets reply "with another huge army"! Siege weapons is a natural answer but is there something else? YEAH! 30 priests at 0.0001 game speed!!!

30 priest = hmmm... 4500 gold Hope I helped!

Phil

lshaul
Clubman
posted 02-21-99 10:31 PM ET (US)     17 / 22       
Try a combined army of Horse archers and catapults. Of course if he has cats with his HHA then unless you outnumber him at more then two to one your going to have to do a lot of unit managment to make up for the archer and siege bonuses. Another good idea is a combination of scythe chariots and HHA's or other mounted archers. The important thing to do is pin his archers down so you can get a more powerful unit to clobber his HHS's. Of course you could always sneak some villigers in behind him and wall his forces in. Then rush him with all your forces. Mounted archers to focus his attention then have 20 or 30 legions or phalanxes rush in and well, kill him.
Row_Master
Inactive
posted 03-01-99 03:36 PM ET (US)     18 / 22       
Armored Elephants

HHA don't have a chance!

Dhamon
Inactive
posted 03-01-99 04:00 PM ET (US)     19 / 22       

---------------------------------------------
Row_Master
-----------------------------------
Armored Elephants
HHA don't have a chance!
-----------------------------

No way, AE, are about the worst unit you cound try to use against Hittite HHAs. With their great speed, HHA will pick off a few of the Eles, move backwards, and repeat. AE get toasted by massed HHA

Muskrat
Inactive
posted 03-01-99 10:27 PM ET (US)     20 / 22       
To stop 30 Hittite HHA? First of all, you should have at least one super unit. I am assuming your partner got HHA about 50 minutes into the game? 50 minutes into the game you should have heavy cats or helepolis. The minoan/greek cat+helepolis combo will rip heavy horsies up. If you are a civ without siege weapons, then chances are, your civ is meant to rush with. You shouldn't let your ally get 30 heavy horsies easily. Which brings me to my next point. If you are a civ that is weak in the iron age, KEEP PRESSURE ON YOUR OPPONENT during bronze, and maybe even tool.

Untill next time,
Muskrat

Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 03-02-99 00:23 AM ET (US)     21 / 22       
I already gave an answer concerning CAs in a previous thread. What about HAs? Hmmm... Well, I think you have no choice, you will be forced to produce 200+ slingers or 400+ clubmen... then you have a chance... 60 priests with the toolworking upgrade might work too... 10 balista with iron shield would not be too bad...10 scout ships with ballistic is the best option. A legion with fanaticism is just the perfect solution...

Of course, a serious answer could be 15 upgraded cats... but this answer is too boring...

Phil

Spam
Clubman
posted 03-02-99 11:24 AM ET (US)     22 / 22       
IMHO, 30 HHAs is just a stupid army. Its absurdly expensive - 2100 gold - and will be easily destroyed by an army costing a fraction of that. HHAs are 1)raiders and 2)support troops. Using HHAs as "frontline" troops is silly. I'd much rather have my opponent spend 2100 gold on HHAs than on practically any other unit (except cav perhaps). I'm pretty sure anyone can be defeated with almost any unit if you can shell out 2100 gold like that. 30 Ellies anyone? How about 50 Phalanx? 140 Legions? 26 cats/helepolis? Actually, I think going HHA only offers the LEAST bang for the buck in the entire game. They are fast and kill peons like no other unit. But you don't need a horde of 30 HHAs to do that. I suggest spending that gold on a more useful combined arms army instead.

My 2 cents

Spam

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