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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Is there a counter for Hittites?
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Topic Subject:Is there a counter for Hittites?
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ephestion
Clubman
posted 03-11-12 03:22 PM ET (US)         
Once the hittites start making catapults I can't seem to get close enough to their siege with any unit. When I do manage to get some units near them they die pretty quick. Is there anything that counters them once massed?


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
AuthorReplies:
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 03-19-12 03:04 AM ET (US)     26 / 36       
They are monsters in DM
Yes they are and there's nothing you can do, except if you created a mod of the game. Finally, someone in AoEH realizes something that we have known for millenia: that my people are the best at building empires and crushing their enemies! Thank you! lol (just in case, I was kidding).

Now, getting serious, those recorded games are Hittite vs Hittite. I still think that Hittites are the best DM civilization. But, just to make it clear for everyone, both skeptics and believers, I'd like to see some DM top players using a non-Hittite civilization vs a Hittite top player.

I have always suspected that hittites are 'broken'. For those who don't know what broken means: In a video game games when a character or a weapon clearly overpowers any other in the game, the gamers say that the character/weapon is 'broken'. As the player skill would affect the results, the characters/weapons are tested by top skilled players. When they pick up the 'broken' character/weapon vs any other character/weapon (also used by top players), they realize that the first one wins most, if not every time. Sometimes the game developers use that information to develop patches to make the game more equitative. However even if they do it is impossible to make all characters/weapons of exactly the same level. In many videogames there are tier lists of characters/weapons, defined by the results at official tournaments, showing which are better and which are worse. For years I have wanted to see tier lists for RoR 1.0a civilizations, so if anyone knows any information about them, I'd deeply appreciate if you shared it.
Basse
Clubman
posted 03-19-12 05:37 AM ET (US)     27 / 36       
Basse, a little OP? They are monsters in DM. Those recorded games highlight the fact whoever can keep producing cats ultimately wins the game. There is no real counter to h.cats just lots of lost units trying to stop them.
They are not unbeatable. I've managed to beat 1v1 hittite players with other civs. But it takes more to beat a hittite player than other civs
ephestion
Clubman
posted 03-19-12 09:58 AM ET (US)     28 / 36       
Everyone knows Hittites are OP in DM. But like SUpp said, no-one has patched the game.

Even in ROR Hittites are overpowered. I think the only reduction they ended up with was instead of 2x HP they get 1.5x HP on Cats. That was patched in 1.0C AOE and 1.0a ROR.


But what the game really needed was

1. All Bronze age units to cost Gold
2. More gold in a standard gold mine.
3. More HP for Town centers
4. Much slower Cats.
5. Slightly slower Ballista
6. More 33% HP for towers
7. More food from Berry Bushes, Animals/Hunt (+75 Food)
8. More Fish Food (+250 per fish spot)
9. 10% Faster Gather Rates for everything.
10. Add min range of 3 for Cats
11. Add min Range 1 to all archers.
12. All infantry get 25% more HP
13. All villagers get 33% more HP
14. All Cavalry get +2 more Pierce Armour and 25% more HP
15. All Triemes get +15% fire rate and +1 Range
16. Cat Trieme and Jugs get +25% HP and +1 Range

That is about all I can think of at the moment. But I think that should sort out some anomalies of the game.


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 03-19-12 07:22 PM ET (US)     29 / 36       
Just to make it clear: no one is saying that Hittites or are unbeatable,just that they are clearly overpowered compared to any other civilization in DM games.
I think the only reduction they ended up with was instead of 2x HP they get 1.5x HP on Cats. That was patched in 1.0C AOE and 1.0a ROR.
Hittite catapult units still have 2x HPs in the latest official patches. The only civilization changes made in AoE1.0c/RoR1.0a compared to AoE1.0b/RoR1.0 were the shang villager cost and the phoenician woodcutting rate.

Interesting enough reducing siege power wouldn't affect Hittites as much as other civilizations as Minoan, Greek and Roman. After all those civilizations have rather poor archers (except minoan of course) and cavalry (and due to HPs and/or speed infantry can be seen as cannon fodder for archers specially)

Now I think the main issue with AoE/RoR is the overpowered siege. I think the siege fire rate and accuracy should be decreased, that would allow melle units to close the gap with much less loses. Also, this would sound strange, the attack points should be either increased or left as they are. I think the attack countermeasure should be mde it, so we avoid making civilizations as greek and roman too weak (especially vs archers).

Secondarily I'd say that the lack of decent piercing armor in cavalry is also responsible of the dictatorship of ranged units in the game (interesting, because most archers in AoE have rather low attack points, only HA and HHAs being better).

Also I don't think making every bronze age unit cost gold is a good idea. That would cause that any game in which the players run out of gold would become a stalemate.
Thompsoncs
Clubman
posted 03-19-12 07:58 PM ET (US)     30 / 36       
Don't forget the stupidity of units when facing missiles units.

Let's say one armored elephant faces 1 slinger and 10 centurions. He's dead anyway, but he should try to do as much damage to the centies as possible. Instead he leaves the centurions, tries to reach the slinger and is cut down by the centies without having done any damage.

It is very much possible for modders to change the power of missile and artillery (I hope I achieved that at least a bit), but I have not yet found an effective fix for the stupid attack behavior. They just always attack missiles and especially the one that is already damaged.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 03-21-12 01:06 PM ET (US)     31 / 36       
Thompsoncs I think (in other words: I could be wrong) that that attack behavior has nothing to do with the unit being a hack or a missile unit, but with the unit hitpoints. By default an unit will concentrate its attack towards the enemy unit with the least hitpoints (that's why they attack the damaged unit), and usually, missile units have less hitpoints than hack damage units. In theory if you test axemen and HHA vs a random unit and you'd see how the axemen become the attack targets.
Thompsoncs
Clubman
posted 03-21-12 01:18 PM ET (US)     32 / 36       
It's true that attack behavior is directed towards the weaker HP units (and perhaps even how much of the total amount of HP the unit has left), but I believe I've seen ES_MattP mention that there was a piece of code that made units prefer to attack missile units.

edit: Found it
Thompsoncs > Units forget everything around them when a missile units attacks them

The unit AI in RoR had some issued, and Dave P put in some code that in my opinion "cheats" by making units react instantly when they are targeted by projectiles. I don't think that can be fixed in the .ply file, I'm think it is in the C++ code.

[This message has been edited by Thompsoncs (edited 03-21-2012 @ 01:22 PM).]

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 03-23-12 03:03 PM ET (US)     33 / 36       
Hmm that could be because the priority for an unit is to deal with attacking units instead of enemy units that are not attacking. Still I'd like to see if an unit would prefer attacking a HHA or an axeman if both are hitting the unit at the same time.
Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 03-23-12 04:27 PM ET (US)     34 / 36       
Then it would still attempt to hunt down the HHA. The unit will actually switch target and chase the missile unit even if the axeman engages in combat with it first.

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 03-25-12 01:40 AM ET (US)     35 / 36       
Well, if that's the case the AI could be anything but intelligent. I really thought any unit would attack first the units with less Hps.

[This message has been edited by Suppiluliuma (edited 03-25-2012 @ 01:41 AM).]

ephestion
Clubman
posted 03-25-12 09:25 PM ET (US)     36 / 36       
That still applies in the absence of missiles. But it will get over-ridden by the first mele attack. Often I see units walking towards the weakest unit but upon being hit they will attack the nearest attacker.


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
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