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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Different Types of Economy
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Topic Subject:Different Types of Economy
plismo
Clubman
posted 03-07-12 04:47 PM ET (US)         
What do you guys think I am trying to figure out something.

Bronze army can beat Chariots Archers for example 4 stables vs 5 Archery Ranges or even 6 ranges. Suggesting this is a Hill Country Match, no rules, no reveal map and Yamato vs Assyrian.

In order for the bronze army to get 4 stables shall bronze in 13:40 while the chariot archer would probably bronze around the same or maybe at 14. Would you prefer bronzing in 13:40 or 14:40 or even 15 if you are the bronze army?

The biggest pop that a bronze army can do in 14:45 is 32 villagers to 34 and chariot army can do 31 villagers and do 14 or 13:45.

I think bronze army has more chance winning if you have calvaries or camels. The problem would be if chariot's civilization closes and starts booming inside their base so here it comes the jobs from slingers and stone throwers. Assyrian will do camels, bowman, and CA vs calvaries and slingers. Bowman to produce cheap army vs calvaries and upgraded calvaries at least their damage not nobility yet.
AuthorReplies:
ephestion
Clubman
posted 03-07-12 05:33 PM ET (US)     1 / 18       
You won't be able to match the rate of production vs a Chariot Archer army. The gold you make will be very slow compared to the food and wood needed for Chariot Archers. But if you can manage to outnumber the Chariot Archers early with Tool Age Archers and Slingers plus have some Cavalry support you may be able to beat the Chariot Archer army. You would probably need two archery ranges and a stable in bronze to start with. Then add more stables when you can.


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
plismo
Clubman
posted 03-08-12 02:14 PM ET (US)     2 / 18       
Not a bad idea something alike like I used to play before.
2 Achery, 2 stable and 1 siege workshop. You send bowman and calvaries later maybe you will need to concentrate on the power of the calvary for example their upgrades. Bowman can take out villagers better than CAs's accuracy on elevation levels. I still would use Barracks, 3 stables, 1 archery and 1 siege. Most people now blocks entrances with buildings, so slingers are useful like saying cheap effectively vs chariots and villagers including destroying their TC will slow them really well and also market so they can't upgrade things. The real problem is the combination of camels and chariots with stone throwers if you only have calvaries and broad swordman you are going to die quick.
Maybe it would be better to rely on improve and calvaries as broad swordman is too slow to use it in a moving game.
ephestion
Clubman
posted 03-08-12 10:16 PM ET (US)     3 / 18       
Cavalry don't win by much vs a Chariot Archer I think they have 1/4 HP left 1v1. So Trying to outnumber them with Cavalry alone is not a good idea. But you can raid with archers as you said. Maybe add a cavalry unit in with your Archers to help. But where your main battle is you will probably need slingers and cavalry. Instead of siege in Bronze it might be better to spend resources on Towers. You only need to build enough buildings so that you can continuously train units. You will not be able to train from 2 Archery ranges, 2 Stables and a Siege Workshop in Early Bronze. In late tool start making your archers and or slingers, then in Bronze make 1 stable this should be enough until you get to late bronze where you may then make 1 or 2 more stables and a few towers. Siege is not important because at this stage of the game the army you have is fighting for map control and siege will not be very effective.

Building a tower near his villagers or in direct attack of his Archery Ranges can cause a great shift in the game. But you will probably need 2 villagers, early in the game, on stone. Plus some food to get the sentry tower upgrade (150 Food?).


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 03-09-12 01:47 PM ET (US)     4 / 18       
Indeed, the main advantage of chariots is that they cost no gold and in almost every stage of the game most people will have more woodcutters and food collectors than gold collectors allowing to train large numbers of chariots.

In fact if you find an efective way to stop chariot flooding, please share it with the rest of us, lol.
plismo
Clubman
posted 03-09-12 11:25 PM ET (US)     5 / 18       
It will depend with 32 villagers it is possible to make 3 stables 1 archery range and 1 siege workshop. However, your attack will be slow. The assyrian player can wall even do more walls and grow inside their base until they get many CAs calvaries will be anihilated really fast. IMO, if the assy players doesn't walls you might have the advantange on first 2 minutes after bronzing but if you fail to kill villagers then you are already done. People do the famous pit, house blocking and walls.
plismo
Clubman
posted 03-12-12 01:42 PM ET (US)     6 / 18       
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNpVapOZyBs&feature=plcp&context=C4e8b004VDvjVQa1PpcFNRyMZ2u4iWdvdO6MzpMtiVZ7BKtCvKp4w=

Judging this video this guy made 28 villagers at tool he created more villagers and stopped at 31. Bronze in 13:30 you see that the other player made a bronze in 13. Villagers at tool age carry more wood and you see him getting 6 ranges vs 5 ranges and better expansion. In water using this estrategy will be risky as calculating the villagers it is hard. In water I think you can tool with 24 villagers and then create more villagers at the same time expand water and get tons of extra wood something really hard to do.
plismo
Clubman
posted 03-26-12 04:56 PM ET (US)     7 / 18       
This is another main explanation of the economy for example between 27 peons and 32 or 35 peons if you get good map to make a decent bronze in 15 or 16.

Water maps if you try to make at least 30 peons and water and bronze in 14 minutes you can do pop 40 however, there is no much difference between the other guy that creates pop 50 or 55 and bronzes in 15 minutes he has more peons will boom more than the other player. The only difference in water will be you are going to get rush sea with 3 or 5 War Galleys and so the other guy will prepare more docks and finish the other guy with less economy something so risky to do a bronze rush. At Iron Age I would not know much as the fastest Iron I'd seen is 16:30 or so in ROR and most likely the easiest is to do 18 minutes or 17:45. As you can Jihad and improve your economy alot or an important upgrade. Sometimes is better to Iron in 21 minutes so your economy is good enough to compete against other players after bronzing in 15 minutes you will try to manage to iron in 21.

Land like Hill Country if walls are allow and the map is big enough you can do 2 blocks of economy one Top and the other Top Left. If you create 34 peons and bronze in 15:45 or 16 you can manage to pick gold and stone and defend well with camels upgrading the important stuffs in market. The other player will bronze in 13 will try to get stone thrower you will need a decent defense then later your economy will put an end to him as more peons at this times I state; is how the economy of the game is affected. If the map generates really small bronzing with alot of peons will not be good and also if map happens to be bad. I'd been studying the game alot lately, so guys can see a guy bronzing in 13 and the other in 13:45 or 14 with more peons at the time in 18 minutes will have better economy than the player in 13; I know the guy in 13 can do a faster attack that doesn't means it's over if the other guy gets better map. That means that you can do 2 markets and upgrade market lot then have a really advatange at minute 25 or 28; for example need less to chop your trees in your map and your farms are better.

Another good thing you can do is to make layers of 2 walls then your economy can get big enough to crush the other player; use stone throwers close to walls and strong archers such as composite bowman and cheap economy of 100 of bowman near walls if there is no CA around of course.

[This message has been edited by plismo (edited 03-26-2012 @ 05:03 PM).]

local boi
Clubman
(id: dragon14)
posted 03-28-12 02:00 AM ET (US)     8 / 18       
CA + stone thrower should beat that army of slingers and cavalry right? I can't remember
anyway if you can beat CA, let us all know :O

USA
katsup or mustard

[This message has been edited by local boi (edited 03-28-2012 @ 02:03 AM).]

plismo
Clubman
posted 03-30-12 08:18 PM ET (US)     9 / 18       
Probably, it will depend if both got the same economy it will be hard though a calvary is always better than a CA.

If you send suicidal slingers; slingers are only effective against CA in this case if he creates stone thrower his eco will be weaker even better for the calvary army to crush the CA army.

I'd came with another ultimate strat that maybe a player used alot to have a great advatange.

1st Pit you put like 9 or 10 villagers expand, docks faster first then berries or pit with gazelles probably bronzing with pop 50 in 15 minutes or 55 15:25 with more villagers you are going to get alot of wood not even a fast bronze will be able to beat you up will if the rush if in 14 minutes if it's in 13 probably will be in danger.
plismo
Clubman
posted 04-09-12 06:22 PM ET (US)     10 / 18       
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnq5UVLqVqE&feature=plcp&context=C4d1fa76VDvjVQa1PpcFP-Spwq-VqwnsetSc7DfUCeivuVnQLoJH0=

CA vs Calvary

Practically I do the same speed bronze but If I were the roman guy I would had done more than just 26 villagers; the other guy got 28 and it was like 26 vs 28 why? The chariot guy closed entrance even if he loses 4 villagers red was creating villagers all the time while blue can't. Something I would have done is to bronze in 14 minutes at least with a decent of 31 villagers on blues side his expansion obviously was pretty slow competing less villagers and also ironing damn mistake. He didn't upgraded farms when he could another big mistake; these are the mistakes of why you guys can't beat Chariot without any tactic. He also did not even do stone thrower and calvary.

His bronze in 13 did not achieve anything he attacked at almost 14 minutes and also did not search enemy another big mistake. You see that 2 stables vs 4 archery range attacking houses . With 31 villagers would had been 3 stables vs 4 archer ranges or even 4 if nicer wood.

[This message has been edited by plismo (edited 04-09-2012 @ 06:30 PM).]

ephestion
Clubman
posted 04-11-12 02:17 PM ET (US)     11 / 18       
Personally my timings are a lot worse than that player's, but the strategy he should have had was a tool archer rush followed by cavalry. When he got the wheel he should have mixed his units with chariot archers a bit so that his cavalry were more effective.

The only way to beat a chariot archer fast bronze is to attack at the very start of bronze age with archers and cavalry. Making the archers during the transition from tool to bronze. And attacking as soon as you arrive in Bronze. Then follow up using cavalry as support. You could of course just follow with chariot archers also. Then as towers start to appear or areas start clogging up with buildings you may consider some siege units.

The guy in that video who played the cavalry army just couldn't match the number of cavalry with chariot archers. Plus neither side raided aggressively enough. The red guy had many units idle doing nothing but playing defensively.


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
plismo
Clubman
posted 04-11-12 02:54 PM ET (US)     12 / 18       
True calvary plus bowman would have done the game and a win to blue. Blue was killing alot of red expansion economy the problem is that red kept creating villagers all the time while blue only made calvaries at the start.

The real problem with 26 peons is that gold is pick slow so it means you are really battling with 20 peons or 22 for him he had many peons on gold. If he created at least 29 or 30 peons after tool remember that villagers are loaded faster at tool age he had some elephants down to his base and maybe chop more wood more expansion putting at least 8 villagers on the 1st pit then do a stone thrower and gg. Stone thrower, bowmand and calvary cheap stuff and balance would have end the chariot army easily.
plismo
Clubman
posted 04-13-12 05:54 PM ET (US)     13 / 18       
Interesting game see this is Persian at the beginning POV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLj1p0GLvpM&feature=plcp&context=C400c879VDvjVQa1PpcFP-Spwq-VqwniXKPBPT3vY2P6I8sE6fjCo=

Bronze in 12:43 you see it weak 23 villagers the only advantage getting 2 camels faster at 13:35 he only got like 3 camels. That is why I insist that having more villagers it is actually more useful. In my style of play the persian player should had bronze in 13:45 with 29 or 30 peons as fast as possible. He would had end the chariot player easily with 4 stables with camels.

Another good thing watch Madeconian player beated a Chariot player and other boom with composite bowman.

See wheels is not even needed on the game? A win for weak civilizations.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 04-13-12 10:09 PM ET (US)     14 / 18       
Well Persians have the hunting bonus so early in the game they can still compete, what I found unexpected is that the Macedonian won.
plismo
Clubman
posted 04-14-12 12:29 PM ET (US)     15 / 18       
Any civilization is good as long as you are fast and have good micro at the game. Their hoplites can take out 2 CAs or even 3 if engage in close combat. Any building like farms, archery range are destroy easily something really good to do with hoplites; he will need to gather another ton of wood which is slow it takes seconds, by that time you can kill him fast with calvaries and hoplites. Choson would had been harder calvary and stone thrower maybe including 3 bowmans at the beginning.

Slinger may have been another option but kinda risky if you can't find him on the map. The real problem would have been fighting against a professional Assyrian, Yamato, Shang, and Phoenician which it's harder to beat.

What I don't like they wall with houses that slows your production economy; walls are more effective but they play no wall. That is why I think KOR Korean Settings is for learning purposes. I know that is good to wall with buildings but it is actually more important to explore, search enemy, search new expansions and build next to the enemy. Asian style has a true weakness in my eyes, they depend too much on the fast attack but not actually on the economy of the game on how it works inside the game.

When everyone starts newbie in MP, we all think that Chariots are the easiest to use and more useful. When you are actually learning more the game; you know later how to kill with composite bowman, camels and later with any unit such as calvary. As I said before 28 peons from Chariots and 28 peons from gold army it is best to create at least 31 or 32 with gold army as you need to pick gold it slows your production.

CA if bronze in 13 minutes attacks at 14 minutes and 24 seconds with 5 or 6 chariot archers; while bronze army if bronze in 14:45 you can create 3 or 4 calvaries which beats the 5 or 6 chariot archers. What if map is small or medium?
Probably bronzing in 14:45 may not work you will need to bronze at least in 14 minutes to compete against him and try to beat him. Gold is pick the slowest resource so 28 vs 28 you put 5 or 6 on gold you are actually competing 22 vs 28 something bad even if 1 calvary can beat 2 CAs from any civilization.

[This message has been edited by plismo (edited 04-14-2012 @ 12:47 PM).]

plismo
Clubman
posted 04-18-12 03:39 PM ET (US)     16 / 18       
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAiq8bwRyrY&feature=plcp&context=C44d6640VDvjVQa1PpcFP-Spwq-VqwnpUhEf94qJYSTKyGyi-bE6s=

Here is another good game. Orange Phoenician did a build order wrong. He did well everything fast he needed to explore and build next to the enemy bronzing in 13 or 12:57 does nothing; while you click things and the time it takes to you to send a scout rush and even if they use house blocks it doesn't matter; why so defensive? When houses are destroy easily with 1 stone thrower even 1 hoplite from any civilization that is silly; they don't follow the gaming pattern. You see 2 camels in minute 14 at 14:35 you see other 2 or camels. That means that the real fight starts in minute 15 and 16 even 17 or 18. Why not better expansion more stables and even a stone thrower? Do you really think bronzing with 2 camels makes you win the game killing 4 villagers while the other player can run and build more economy? With good economy you don't need to run everywhere on the map with bad economy you need to run forever.

How about market upgrades? He didn't have enough economy to make upgrades.

This is an understanding from the master of Mosco Top Hill Player at Zone from clan Esp and Pouser.

The other player could have done priest to be protected a bit. 2 or 3 camels; are going to fail a good expanded bronze time. You can even use academies and tons of axeman with bronze armor upgrades or even Iron if you Iron fast.
Barracks to block entrances, walls more effective than just simple houses.

One thing you may ask, how can I escape if he had better map? Simple while you tool wall and then temple block, barrack block, priest conversion maybe even 1 or 2 towers more villagers slower bronze time but not dead to help your team. If he only creates 26 by the time you have 29 your economy after the time gets to 15 or 16 your economy will surpass the other player if it doesn't happens it means he's a pure luck economy if he expanded well after bronzing it will also depend on good and bad maps.

[This message has been edited by plismo (edited 04-18-2012 @ 04:03 PM).]

plismo
Clubman
posted 04-20-12 07:28 PM ET (US)     17 / 18       
Shang Boom at Bronze how good with 25 villagers he lost 1 villager. Shang works better at tool age than bronze age.
Check it out he bronze in 12:40 and have 2 camels and 1 scout at minute 14. He block houses but also they use farm bugs. He got lucky that his opponent were slow or didn't have good economy like expanding well. This is the experts at Vietnam the best from their gamers; they always build farms closing entrances something risky to do in a real game 1 stone thrower mess all the beauty farms even camels can destroy farms easily.

If the team would have been shang dependant's economy to win the game with only 2 camels I doubt he could help out his team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvTlG-8AC08&context=C456c762ADvjVQa1PpcFP_ghecXKziCiQrXR07VlmYy1X8F9oukCU=
plismo
Clubman
posted 05-02-12 04:59 PM ET (US)     18 / 18       
Another video showing civilizations doesn't matter much on the game. My preferal expansion would had been like Virrey_Esp famous expansion bronzing in 14:25 having more gold, wood and expansion like more buildings like academies faster; the Macedonian player is pro he attacked with calvaries then with composite bowman and stone thrower. You would ask a Catapult from Sumerian can beat mace; if mace attacks with 10 stone throwers cheaper than going to iron and then later you are going to get crush by the bronze economy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37np_OU-pFY&feature=g-all-u

Good match Minoan vs Roman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ONj0Nj0YsI&feature=relmfu

My choice of playing would have been with walls why? If I use 29 villagers or 30 after bronzing like in 14 minutes you have enough villagers to wall and more pit expansion on wood. Now also I have more villagers to move it next to his base stone thrower, improve bowman and chariot. Also priest from roman as you get more wood you can spam pit in gold.
Minoan's composite bowman wouldn't do much here another example why different gameplay makes the game not civilization.

[This message has been edited by plismo (edited 05-02-2012 @ 05:26 PM).]

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