You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
Moderated by Suppiluliuma, PhatFish, Fisk, EpiC_Anonymous, Epd999

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.18 replies
Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Re-learning Build Orders
Bottom
Topic Subject:Re-learning Build Orders
ephestion
Clubman
posted 03-01-12 10:05 AM ET (US)         
There are two things I would like to learn how to do. The first is a fast Tool Age arrival and a fast Bronze Age Arrival. I normally play Greeks because I love hoplites but I know Assyrian, Shang Egyptian are probably better or faster.

So what is an ideal build order?

1. Granary or Store
2. First 10 on Food? or First 12 on Food?
3. How many on wood?
4. Is a dock start viable when there are fish?


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
AuthorReplies:
plismo
Clubman
posted 03-01-12 03:28 PM ET (US)     1 / 18       
It will depend on the map some people start with gazelles because they can get food and alot of wood. If you have the gazelles next to your base it is sometimes better to start with them and leaving 6 or 7 villagers and the rest on wood.

Granary is the safest start as you don't lose any villager I always use between 5 or 6 it is enough and sometimes 7 to speed up a bit but it will depend on your strat.

King James taught me this strat you can also put like 9 or 10 villagers on berries you get alot of food the problem is that you need to balance wood to pit.

7 Faster Tool 6 constant food and wood at the same time leaving 5 means pit faster and dock or fish shore.

Fish Shore always the best but sometimes if the fish shores are ugly spot you wouldn't go there for example only 3 fishing shores. I would probably go for 4 or 5 fishing shores; if you use 4 villagers more wood if you use 5 villagers that means you are going for a faster tool time.

I created some maps Plismo maps are not the best creative maps but good enough to learn also you can test zone2k maps are quite food to train.

Per Elephant at least 6 or 8 villagers so it doesn't rots and per gazelle I use 3 or 4.

I can do with my maps tool 8 minutes with 20 villagers in a real map you need to get at least 3 elephants and 2 herds of gazelles near and also don't forget that villagers are created faster at tool age. If you create 16 villagers you can get tool at 7 however, in a real map it is hard to get a map like that.

Sending 3 villagers per tree faster cutting so villagers don't get stuck and also don't let the villager carry 0 wood as it loses time if the tree is almost cutted send the villager to another tree. Getting pit it's ideal around 5 or 6 minutes for a fast tool for a fast bronze maybe around 4:30 minutes pit or before.
Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 03-01-12 05:44 PM ET (US)     2 / 18       
I recall hearing that pit start on average actually are slightly faster than granary starts, I can't remember if hat only went for water maps though. If you can place it near some shore fish (shore fish, especially in the original AoE, gathers a lot faster than both meat and berries), pit starts are always the best.

When it comes to dock starts, they're rarely done, although they're possible if one is playing Minoans and has a few stragglers. Otherwise placing a storage pit as the first building is definitely recommended.

How many villagers you will put on food will vary with map settings, and also whether you're looking for the best tooling time for an early rush, or a good Bronze time.

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 03-02-12 01:51 PM ET (US)     3 / 18       
Indeed pit starts are nice specially if there's hunt/fish and wood nearby, pit has the advantage that it is multifunctional. I've never started with a dock, but of course in sea maps having a dock early (2nd or 3rd non-house building) is highly advisable.


The amount of early villagers on wood depends a lot if the map has plenty of water or not. If there's a significant amount of water it is advisable to invest extra villagers to chop wood instead of food as that wood will be used to build fishing boats that in turn will collect food (so they make up for the 'lack' of food collectors). Also having extra wood choppers will let you build a navy to defend your fishing boats and harass the enemy (of course you don't need to listen to me, remember, I'm the eternal n00b, lol)

[This message has been edited by Suppiluliuma (edited 03-02-2012 @ 01:58 PM).]

plismo
Clubman
posted 03-02-12 03:46 PM ET (US)     4 / 18       
I think you guys knows the game well, the problem you guys don't play much that is why I think your strats and ideas are fine but if you don't play much multiplayer as single players are better players than multi. However, single player shall also experiment multiplayer to be the better player than the player that just plays multiplayer.

Fish starts are only better if it's near your base and also a good spot at least 4 fishing shores, 3 is slower than berries. Starting with dock I think it's a good idea if you are going to get tool rush water is sometimes faster than land but it will depend how close you are near water and if you have some elephants to create at least some villagers even if slower than berries or fish shores. I definetely think it's a risky strat sometimes is slower because sea is far and you get animals and berries close.

I had play with Basse he is as good as most players from GR.
I think you guys shall try once again after improving yourself vs the computer. Even Thompson knows how to play but don't know how to employ it in a real multiplayer game.
Basse
Clubman
posted 03-02-12 05:12 PM ET (US)     5 / 18       
Persian pit starts are the fastest starts I think. Their hunting bonus really helps them to get a really fast tool/bronze. Even though they are quite useless in bronze :P
ephestion
Clubman
posted 03-02-12 09:48 PM ET (US)     6 / 18       
The problem I find with pit start is that the food runs out quicker than it takes to gather 120 wood for the next pit. This is mainly for the very start. I usually out 6 on food and 6 on wood at the start. Then I keep adding people to Food so I may end up with 10-12 on food and 6 on wood. Then I add more to wood so that just before going Tool I have 12 on food 10 on wood.


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
plismo
Clubman
posted 03-03-12 07:04 PM ET (US)     7 / 18       
It will more likely depend on the map. As having more wood it's better on water maps and also it will depend more likely on the strat. Some people have 7 to 9 villagers on wood for better expansion at the end more ranges or stables, etc...

If it's a reveal map probably building 2 houses and maybe granary if it's hill country. There is no basic formula every player plays different and for example depending on the map you get it will affect sometimes I think having wood faster it's better and some maps having food faster.

I think wood is the most important factor here to produce expansion and more military buildings. The time sometimes doesn't matters much but economy does matters more.

Fish Shores are only to speed up a bit but like I said bad fish shores is slower you will need to expand either to berries or docks or you probably going to get stuck with one fish shore.

Docking first is the most important thing to do as docks will give you more food but if tooling faster is more important then you shall probably go another alternative method instead of docking. Dock fast food but late food however, if you have many docks you will get alot of food at minute 15 or 16.

[This message has been edited by plismo (edited 03-03-2012 @ 07:09 PM).]

ephestion
Clubman
posted 03-04-12 04:25 AM ET (US)     8 / 18       
How can someone do a dock start? I have tried several times but I always stop producing villagers for a period after the starting food is spent. Not to mention I keep running out of wood for houses and boats because without a pit wood gathering is very slow.


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
Basse
Clubman
posted 03-04-12 06:15 AM ET (US)     9 / 18       
I only dock start if I am minoan, close to water and lots of trees in my base. It's hard to get it right thouhg, but it's very good on medit. If you're early with ships, you can rule the water, giving you and your team a good food source
plismo
Clubman
posted 03-05-12 01:16 PM ET (US)     10 / 18       
Minoan, Roman, Palmyran, Phoenician and Persian can do dock starts. Probably you will need to start with gazelles the best start next to wood or 2 elephants and then build a pit next to wood. Persian is an art civilization they can fish shore quicker so basically persian can do rush sea bronze or tool or even tried iron fast and jihad. Persian's Tireme are the best through the game can stop Phoenician and Hittite.

Dock start is quite risky it's better to make a pit next to wood gather all the food around the base then make dock faster. Why dock faster? Because it gives you alot of food however, you will get less villagers and lose a bit 1 or 2.

To be strong at water with scout ships or Galley's ships I think it's better to have more villagers than more at water but if you focuse only land probably faster food like water it's better.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 03-05-12 06:34 PM ET (US)     11 / 18       
Persian trirremes have the fastest fire rate (for a trirreme), however that is some sort of handicap as they have serious lacks in other traits: they have the shortest potential range for an iron age missile ship so they can be easily outranged (and range my friends is quite an important trait in AoE), and they lack ballistics making them extremely innacurate vs fast units. Greek Trirremes can easily outrun them, Hittite war galleys greatly outrange them, and Yamato Trirremes can cause some serious damage to them. Don't get me wrong, persioan trirremes are not bad, but I can't see them as the best ones in the game.
plismo
Clubman
posted 03-05-12 07:22 PM ET (US)     12 / 18       
Range will matter if you are outnumber by Hittite so far my last games I had; I remember seeing Persian dominating sea really fast. The problem is that depending on your opponent most people does the famous bronze in 11 or 12 minutes with them. Like my master said I think it will depend on your opponent.
ephestion
Clubman
posted 03-06-12 01:44 AM ET (US)     13 / 18       
How is it possible to get an 11min or 12min Bronze time? The earliest I can get with Greeks is 15+


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
Basse
Clubman
posted 03-06-12 10:50 AM ET (US)     14 / 18       
I can't get below 15 minutes nowadays either, maybe with shang or persians, but usually 15+. Even though I do the same things now, that I used to do back when I was active RM/DM player. It's all about speed, scouting and knowing where you have your units. A lot of micromanaging that is
plismo
Clubman
posted 03-06-12 01:16 PM ET (US)     15 / 18       
If you get a map where you have 3 elephants and 1 gazelle near forest and 2 berries you can do bronze in 12 minutes.

You start with 3 villagers, H+C create all your villagers build 2 houses with 2 villagers then the 3rd villager build granary. Then while it's finished, have 6 villagers on berries. 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th villager send it to cut trees 3 villagers on each piece of tree or even 4 if you need it ASAP. When you get the 12th villager lure the elephant leave 2 or 3 villagers on the elephant near your TC town center. Then you get enough for pit 120 leave 7 villagers on the wood then lure the 2nd elephant and do the same thing assigning villagers with CTRL 1 and ALT 1, ALT to recall. When you get pop 23 stop or 25 it will require practice though if you create your own map to practice, however in a real map will be with persian, shang or palmyran.

Watch this video for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxdMbbpShfI&feature=related

The best answer is to practice until you master it. However, in a normal map it is quite harder to bronze in that time as you won't get that kind of map. Believe me, I had train for speed it takes alot of time and patience to be able to make bronze in 11:40 it's my best time with Assyrian Continental.

[This message has been edited by plismo (edited 03-06-2012 @ 01:49 PM).]

ephestion
Clubman
posted 03-07-12 04:44 AM ET (US)     16 / 18       
That video was interesting. I wonder instead of wasting time luring 10 elephants if it would have been better to build a pit next to them and use 10 vils to bring them down in 2 shots.

But in anycase I am going to try sub 15 Bronze by stopping villager production. I don't normally stop villagers so it will be a risky thing to try.


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 03-07-12 12:36 PM ET (US)     17 / 18       
I have realized how pros switch villagers to different tasks depending on what they need most urgently, so they don't need as many villagers as the non switchers in early game stages. However I do admit that, for some reason, switch tasking villagers makes me feel very uncomfortable.
plismo
Clubman
posted 03-07-12 03:22 PM ET (US)     18 / 18       
The reason is pit it is more a risk that villager will get kill as you don't have space to run in circles unlike a TC and also at pit you can only occupy 2 elephants but yeah someone perfectly killing 2 elephants on pit and at TC could had done more food. In my opinion this strats on a real map are of a risk if you get many animals near wood then persian will get the fastest bronze in the game but risky if they build a block defense of houses and buildings tapping entrances. In a real game the fastest I'd seen with persian is 10:30 however, on this video he maded like 8:20
If it's not persian for example assyrian does between 11:40 fastest and also most civilizations does 12 and shang could do 11:50 maybe.

It takes practice it is uncomfortable they after gaming thousands of times; I think it is something for them so natural to do.
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires Heaven | HeavenGames