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Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Building Hitpoints
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Topic Subject:Building Hitpoints
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 08-17-09 05:49 PM ET (US)         
After much testing and playing around with the dat files I think I have figured out how building damage is calculated:

All damage to buildings (inc walls and towers) is calculated by adding the total attack points (melee, pierce etc) deducting any armor (walls and towers have pierce armor!), applying any bonuses (siege, siegecraft etc) and then multiplying this value by 0.2 (i.e. buildings have a final 80% armor mechanism).

This formula is consistent with all my tests.

Note that villagers with siegecraft deal a bonus of 8 damage vs towers and 16 vs walls (note that the data file suggests 40 and 80, but *0.2 = 8 and 16).


This testing also helped me with the nobility bug - in that although it would appear that the nobility tech is dropping 1 hp, this is only the reported value. The underlying value is stored as a float or double (i.e. decimal). However as attack points for standard units are whole numbers, I am still considering this as a bug (I will test a chariot + nobility receiving 29 hit from an axeman followed by 1 hit from an improved bowman - giving 149 damage. If a decimal system is used the chariot should still be alive - or to make things more complex the "death check" may consider hp lower than 1 and not = 0?...)
AuthorReplies:
Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 08-18-09 03:01 PM ET (US)     1 / 26       
Is this an editable value? Can it be transferred to other units offering them the same damage reduction?

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 08-18-09 03:18 PM ET (US)     2 / 26       
I haven't managed to track the value down, but it could be:

- held within the unit data (therefore can be edited)
- hard coded for "building" types (which would need to be tracked down in the exe in order to edit)
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 08-18-09 09:32 PM ET (US)     3 / 26       
Interesting enough everyone knows the buildinga can take far more damage than most units, but this is the first time we have a value regarding that "resistance" to damage.
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 08-25-09 08:31 PM ET (US)     4 / 26       
Towers have 4 pierce armour, and walls have 3 pierce armour.

EVEN MORE REASON TO NEVER TAKE TOWERS ON WITH ARCHERS!!!
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 08-30-09 12:09 PM ET (US)     5 / 26       
Lol! this kinda disappoints me in some way. Now i see why Minoan Compies and the HHA always destroy my defenses with suech ease. Even so ,i always thought the piercing armor values were so high that no matter what archer you used to attack you woul always cause just a 1hp damage.

And what about ballista line units which have piercing damage as well?

Anyways, most buldings are made up of wood (a flammable material) but those made of stome should be evenh more resistant, specially walls. I think it would be nice if the piercing armor values are fixed for both walls and towers.

[This message has been edited by Suppiluliuma (edited 08-30-2009 @ 12:12 PM).]

Nacht Jaeger
Clubman
(id: RCM7525)
posted 08-31-09 11:50 AM ET (US)     6 / 26       
I always wondered how this worked. Good job Rasteve.

Nacht Jaeger - Ex AoEH Angel
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 08-31-09 09:00 PM ET (US)     7 / 26       
Lol! this kinda disappoints me in some way. Now i see why Minoan Compies and the HHA always destroy my defenses with suech ease. Even so ,i always thought the piercing armor values were so high that no matter what archer you used to attack you woul always cause just a 1hp damage.
Actually, the 1hp damage is rounded. For example, a archer will not deal 1hp every hit, but every 2,3,4..10 hits, depending on their attack points.

This is due to the hit points being stored as fractions, and we only get to see the rounded result in the bottom left corner.
And what about ballista line units which have piercing damage as well?
Yes, I believe the same applies
Anyways, most buldings are made up of wood (a flammable material) but those made of stome should be evenh more resistant, specially walls. I think it would be nice if the piercing armor values are fixed for both walls and towers.
How do you mean "fixed"?
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 09-01-09 00:55 AM ET (US)     8 / 26       
I mean stome buildongs should have higher piercing armor values, so archers won't "harm" them as much as they already do.
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 09-01-09 10:29 AM ET (US)     9 / 26       
Do you mean stone as in towers and walls (as these have pierce armour) or buildings that look like they are made of stone (egyptian tileset?).

One thing I want to add to my patch is a fire bonus vs buildings and ships. So alchemy and fire ships deal a small additional bonus vs these types of buildings. This will make siege + alchemy slightly more devastating.
Basse
Clubman
posted 09-01-09 10:42 AM ET (US)     10 / 26       
Is it possible to change the buildings hp?
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 09-01-09 11:50 AM ET (US)     11 / 26       
It is possible to change the building hp and hidden pierce armour, and even the siegecraft and siege bonus. The only thing I need to figure out is the 80% damage modifier.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 09-02-09 11:20 PM ET (US)     12 / 26       
Yup i meant towers and walls. There's one thing i don't get tho. You want to make siege even more effective against buildings...even more than now? would that be excessive?.
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 09-03-09 00:09 AM ET (US)     13 / 26       
Ok I understand, sorry for the confusion.

I suppose increasing the pierce armour makes sense. I would also like to see siege units and maybe ships a little less prone to archery range units.


My suggestion for the alchemy change would be a small bonus vs buildings (non-towers/walls) on top of the current attack points increase. Siege damage is huge anyway, so adding something like +5 shouldn't make much difference. A +5 bonus will simply be +1 damage after the 80% hidden building damage modifier is calculated. Alchemy already increases siege damage by 1 vs buildings, so the final change would be +2.

However, archers with alchemy do not deal +1 damage vs buildings as the 80% modifier changes this to +0.2!!! My change will see the damage vs buildings at +1.2. It is only a small change, but adds a bit more value to researching alchemy.

2 things I may also consider is changing the fire galley attack type (currently melee, so leather armour, scale and chain mail actually help land units!) and possibly removing the alchemy affect on slingers...

[This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 09-03-2009 @ 00:16 AM).]

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 09-04-09 02:01 PM ET (US)     14 / 26       
I think i get your point Rasteve. But also there's something that is starting to make me feel uneasy. I just hope that RoR doesn't turn too similar to AoK (mosty because the siege units/ship traits).

About the Fire Galleys...what do you suggest? To be honest i haven't tested their attack against land units so, are you sure that armor helps land units?
Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 09-04-09 03:29 PM ET (US)     15 / 26       
So alchemy would give archers +1.2 damage against ships and buildings? I think it would be a lot easier to make a whole number, either +1 or +2, adding decimal numbers that only show up each 5 times will just confuse people.

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 09-04-09 05:43 PM ET (US)     16 / 26       
I think i get your point Rasteve. But also there's something that is starting to make me feel uneasy. I just hope that RoR doesn't turn too similar to AoK (mosty because the siege units/ship traits).
I want to promote the alchemy change as "fire damage", and with buildings/ships/siege being made of wood, they will suffer slightly more than before.

With the siege having some pierce armour, I was looking to strengthen the siege vs archers in RM a little.

Don't worry, no town centre will be firing in this patch!
About the Fire Galleys...what do you suggest? To be honest i haven't tested their attack against land units so, are you sure that armor helps land units?
Yes, but with the low range, fire galleys dont really get used against land units. I was thinking of changing this totally so that fire galley units attack with "fire damage" - a natural bonus vs buildings and ships (the bonus will probably result in the same damage dealt vs ships in the current game, so really the only difference would be against close-to-the-shore buildings being greater and land units being lower).
So alchemy would give archers +1.2 damage against ships and buildings? I think it would be a lot easier to make a whole number, either +1 or +2, adding decimal numbers that only show up each 5 times will just confuse people.
Buildings have a natural 80% damage multiplier, so 1 becomes 0.2 (and 5 becomes 1). What I mean to say here is that alchemy gives the same affects as before (+1 for missiles, +2 ballista, +6? fire galley) but an additional bonus is applied (+5 vs buildings, +1 vs ships).

Firstly, the building armour will change the +1 to +0.2, and the +5 bonus to +1, making the damage change vs buildings +1.2, but against ships (which have no damage multiplier) +2 and against other units +1. Ballista/helepolis would have a +1.4 vs buildings (as 2 becomes 0.4, and 5 bonus becomes 1).

But to summarise in plainer english:

Alchemy increases missile attack points +1, ballista/helepolis +2 and fire galley +6. Affected units also deal +1 bonus damage vs buildings and ships.
volume
Clubman
posted 09-05-09 01:46 PM ET (US)     17 / 26       
simply make alchemy like burning pitch in aom instead of simply +1 or +2 or a decimal/fraction of an attack. missile weapons firing flaming projectiles do extra damage especially versus wood things.

now for fire galley, you could probably make it range 2 if you really have notion about this land thing. however, do not forget that fire galley are supposed to be beaten by cat trireme and juggernaut because you have this rock-paper-scissors balance going on and 'their heavy artillery shatters the fire galleys fire pots and sets the ship aflame'

and with cat trireme mentioned, maybe it needs to have increased a bit more hitpoints maybe 150 so it will serve a better purpose versus fire galleys. fire galleys with range 2 and also burn shore buildings.

[This message has been edited by volume (edited 09-05-2009 @ 01:48 PM).]

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 09-05-09 09:16 PM ET (US)     18 / 26       
Ah RoR's fire galley has always been my fave ship of all time since RoR's trial version, and so i'm eager to know how this changes will work.

Now @ volume: There's no such rock-paper-scissors in RoR. Juggies are strong against both Trirremes and Fire falleys while trirremes are weak against both fire galleys and Juggies.
volume
Clubman
posted 09-06-09 00:54 AM ET (US)     19 / 26       
well supposively there is a rock-paper-scissors thing with the boats but whatever....

so as far as building hitpoints, no one is going to raise them no matter what right? this is aoeror not aok
Fisk
Champion of AoEH
(id: Fruktfisk)
posted 09-06-09 04:15 AM ET (US)     20 / 26       
I think triremes destroy all of them, the others are merely support units.

//The warrior of Isola

"I lack quotes that demonstrate Humor Intelligence or anything about me."

Pineapplefish
Cleidopus gloriamaris
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 09-06-09 11:47 AM ET (US)     21 / 26       
simply make alchemy like burning pitch in aom instead of simply +1 or +2 or a decimal/fraction of an attack. missile weapons firing flaming projectiles do extra damage especially versus wood things.
Alchemy increases missile attack points +1, ballista/helepolis +2 and fire galley +6. Affected units also deal +1 bonus damage vs buildings and ships.
volume - do you mean simply specify that alchemy deals additional damage vs buildings/ships without quoting the difference?



I am playing with fire galleys now, and this is what I will probably release in v0.4:

Fire Galley attacks with a new attack type. This means land units shield or armour does not reduce the damage from fire galleys. However, I am looking at a bonus vs wood (ships and buildings). In order to have the same balance vs ships as the original game, the overall damage (attack + bonus) will be the same as before (i.e = 24). For example, fire galleys deal 12 damage, +12 vs ships and buildings.

Using the above example:
12 damage vs units (previously 24 - armour) i.e. less damage
12+12=24 damage vs ships (previously 24) i.e. same damage
(12*0.2)+12=14.4 damage vs buildings (previously 24*0.2=4.8) i.e. more damage

But seeing as fire galleys are not really used against land units, the biggest change could be to see a new fire galley rush strat (to quickly destroy other player docks in DM water maps).

[This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 09-06-2009 @ 06:47 PM).]

volume
Clubman
posted 09-07-09 07:17 AM ET (US)     22 / 26       
yes i do mean simply specify that alchemy deals additional damage vs buildings/ships without quoting the difference just like what burning pitch does in aom like for example the buildings in aom have like 95% shield so archers suck at attacking them with arrows until they get flaming arrows from burning pitch
Rasteve
Clubman
posted 09-07-09 10:45 AM ET (US)     23 / 26       
I understand the pros and cons of specifying certain values (such as siegecraft bonus etc), but I have already decided to give the specific values for everything in the game.

It is not a bad idea, as I am sure a lot of people don't care about the actual attack points etc, as their experience already lets them know the effectiveness of certains units+technologies.

Furthermore, maybe in Age of Mythology the bonus isn't given for a specific reason (such as the bonus damage varies between buildings and civs).

The new alchemy +1 damage vs buildings is the value AFTER the building damage multiplier is calculated (to avoid confusion). When I write some documentation for the patch I will specify that all buildings have a 80% damage reduction applied, and all specified bonus damage specified the post-reduction values.

Moving away from values, the alchemy makes ranged units better vs buildings (more noticable in archery range units). Note - Alchemy does not do bonus damage vs walls or towers.
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 09-07-09 02:21 PM ET (US)     24 / 26       
well supposively there is a rock-paper-scissors thing with the boats but whatever....
There is definitively such sort of thing (indeed quite refined) in AoM both for both naval and land units: ramming ships own siege ships which own arrow ships which own ramming ships while infantry owns cavalry which owns archers which own infantry.

But there's not such a thing in AoE AFAIK. If there's one in AoK is becasue the cannon galleons are too slow both at their firing rate and projectile speed.

BTW volume it's not like i enjopy arguing is just that i like to discuss about this kind of stuff
Note - Alchemy does not do bonus damage vs walls or towers.
Really? i had no idea, so it's good to know.

[This message has been edited by Suppiluliuma (edited 09-07-2009 @ 02:22 PM).]

Rasteve
Clubman
posted 09-07-09 02:26 PM ET (US)     25 / 26       
Suppy - I am refering to my patch (the new alchemy bonus vs buildings does not apply vs. walls or towers)
Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph
posted 09-07-09 02:32 PM ET (US)     26 / 26       
Ow thanks for the info in taht case then
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